Obama to propose two free years of community college (1 Viewer)

[Dickies]

If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is exactly what Germany does.

It would be great if this kind of thing would pass in this country. But unfortunately, I doubt it that today's parents would be cool with a system where their child doesn't at least have a chance at going to college. And I mean a chance outside their own actual ability.

If they don't have the ability and/or work ethic do they deserve to go to college?

 

[James Daulton]

If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is exactly what Germany does.

It would be great if this kind of thing would pass in this country. But unfortunately, I doubt it that today's parents would be cool with a system where their child doesn't at least have a chance at going to college. And I mean a chance outside their own actual ability.

If they don't have the ability and/or work ethic do they deserve to go to college?

No, I think they're wasting their time getting almost "useless" degrees. I am in agreement with the German system. Just pointing out that I doubt it would be widely accepted.

 

[NutterButter]

If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is exactly what Germany does.

It would be great if this kind of thing would pass in this country. But unfortunately, I doubt it that today's parents would be cool with a system where their child doesn't at least have a chance at going to college. And I mean a chance outside their own actual ability.

If they don't have the ability and/or work ethic do they deserve to go to college?

No, I think they're wasting their time getting almost "useless" degrees. I am in agreement with the German system. Just pointing out that I doubt it would be widely accepted.

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

 

[humpback]

Any chance we can stop calling things "free" that aren't?

Any chance we can stop arguing about rights when the question is what's best for our country?

Please.

 

[Clifford]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

Thoughts?

I find this qualification as very disturbing. Why set the bar so low. It doesn't exactly instill any form of requirement of dedication to the proposal.

Because in case you haven't caught on, this is aimed at a very particular demographic subset of our population.

 

[SWC]

hey brohans i would like to see a lot of people get a lot of tech school training i mean things like welding cad deisel mechanics hydraulic mechanics you name it the truth is if we had a really highly skilled workforce we could probably get a bunch of jobs that went overseas to come on home and put places like det and cle back to work if that is what this would do then count me in hell i would probably sign up and try to do a class or two on welding if i could take that to the bank

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Well clearly a conservative in academia is of little to no value to society at large, but maybe we should look beyond you as the example. But to keep things simple as I disappear from this thread for work, would the multiplier of such a program be below 1? (Such as the .6 or so for paying that soldier that conservative like to fraudulently use as a proxy for all spending.)

"Multiplier" analysis only makes sense if you're advocating this program as short-run stimulus spending. I can't imagine that any of its supporters would make that argument. These sorts of proposals are nearly always put forward for their long-run benefits, not for short-run issues.

Not true at all. Spending on those things that generate a return on investment (i.e. more dollars are added to the economy than are taken out) is a positive. Period. "Growing the economy"! Something we should do as a rule rather than an exception.

Would you balk the same way at permanently cutting taxes to "grow the economy"? I mean pretending that there was such a thing.

 

[cstu]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

 

[Rich Conway]

Tuition at public colleges came to $62.6 billion in 2012, according to the latest government data. That’s less than what the government already spends to subsidize the cost of college through grants, tax breaks, and work-study funds, which comes to about $69 billion. It spends another $107.4 billion on student loans.

That means that with the money it already spends to make college affordable, the government could instead subsidize public college tuition, thereby making it free for all students. This would not just mean anyone could attend a higher education institution without worrying about cost, but it could incentivize private ones to reduce their costs in order to compete with the free option.

It would also address the government’s current patchwork attempts to make college affordable, which isn’t working for many low- and middle-income families. Tax-based aid is mostly delivered to wealthy families, not the ones in need. Pell Grants, on the other hand, were cut in 2012, which meant students got less aid or kicked out altogether, after already covering the smallest percentage of college costs since the program was created.

If government pays, instead of private citizens, the normal market-based incentives to keep costs down are destroyed. Why wouldn't public colleges simply jack up the price? After all, the feds are paying.

 

[BrutalPenguin]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

This is exactly the way my high school worked. For 2 years we all took math, science, English, etc, together. The last two years some people started going to the community collage to do mechanic / construction / beautician training. And this is decades ago.

 

[Short Corner]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

President Barack Obama will need the approval of Congress to realize his proposal for making two years of community college free for students.

So far, that plan doesn’t have an official price tag — other than “significant,” according to White House officials. If all 50 states participate, the proposal could benefit 9 million students each year and save students an average of $3,800 in tuition, the White House said.

Thoughts?

I didn't go to no community college or notin' but wouldn't the cost be

9 million x $3800 per year

On the Federal level. CCs are subsidized at the state level and the in flux of new students will force them to hire more FT instructors and possibly build more schools.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

I'm not necessarily against spending more on education. This is just kind of a dumb way to go about it.

OK, I agree here. We should be fixing a few flaws with this and running with it.

But can you please cut out the "means testing" nonsense? I thought you were an economist?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

ETA: Of course, 99% of the people who would benefit from this program are people who were always going to college anyway. For those folks, there's no additional "investment" taking place, and the social value of this program is literally zero. It's just a straight-up transfer payment in those cases.

It is a societal good for our brightest and best new entries to the economy are loaded with an average $30K in debt? And I'm guessing that those that would benefit the most from this have that number quite a bit higher. Along with other forms of personal credit run up while in school.

Society is certainly better off when those with ideas and education but normal risk aversion and less than wealthy parents are not doomed to cube farms paying off debt.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

What would you be willing to trade for $2 trillion a year in education spending? I'm a deal maker.

Reagan/Bush tax cuts.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Em, think how many associate degree's you can get....

My chest hurts I was laughing so hard.

 

[Soonerman]

"Free". What a maroon. Why doesn't the government just make everything "free" if it has that power.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well clearly a conservative in academia is of little to no value to society at large, but maybe we should look beyond you as the example. But to keep things simple as I disappear from this thread for work, would the multiplier of such a program be below 1? (Such as the .6 or so for paying that soldier that conservative like to fraudulently use as a proxy for all spending.)

"Multiplier" analysis only makes sense if you're advocating this program as short-run stimulus spending. I can't imagine that any of its supporters would make that argument. These sorts of proposals are nearly always put forward for their long-run benefits, not for short-run issues.

Not true at all. Spending on those things that generate a return on investment (i.e. more dollars are added to the economy than are taken out) is a positive. Period.

It's not clear at all that this program will generate any kind of significant positive return. A huge majority of the beneficiaries will be people who were going to college anyway, meaning that society gets literally zero benefit from from this program. Society was always getting the lower crime rates, higher incomes, higher taxes, more creative juices, etc. -- all the spillovers people like to claim for education. The only thing that changes is who is paying the bill.

Also, none of this has to do with multipliers.

But can you please cut out the "means testing" nonsense? I thought you were an economist?

In its current iteration, this is just another entitlement program for the middle class, not much different than the home mortgage deduction. It's indefensible on any sort of economic grounds.

I can get on board with something like this as a program to help the poor improve their lot in life. But my kids -- and the kids of 95% of FBGs -- don't need the government picking up their college bills. That's why I'm for means-testing this. If you want to do this to help the poor, fine. Don't just hand money to the middle class.

It is a societal good for our brightest and best new entries to the economy are loaded with an average $30K in debt? And I'm guessing that those that would benefit the most from this have that number quite a bit higher. Along with other forms of personal credit run up while in school.

The "student loan debt" argument works in my favor, not yours. The reason why people go into debt to pay for college is because they believe (correctly) that they're making a good private investment with a positive rate of return. If that's the case, and it is, then this is an activity that doesn't need any further subsidies. The people who reap the benefits of college are the ones who mostly pay the cost. That's how things are supposed to be from the standpoint of economic efficiency.

Again, if your argument is that this is a welfare / transfer program, that changes things and that's fine. But it's time to drop the argument that this program somehow benefits society overall. This is going to have an extremely low social rate of return because in 99% of cases, all it's doing is changing the name of the entity who signs the check.

(On a side note, the student loan issue is grossly exaggerated and community colleges are the institutions least responsible for this non-problem. Those are side points that I don't want to worry about too much, but you have a tendency to cram a lot of wrong into a very small number of words, and it's important that people understand that the median student graduates with an amount of debt equal to that of a modest car loan. That's not a problem).

 

[jonessed]

He should be bold and propose free college for everyone.

 

[the moops]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

15 year old make terrible decisions. Just because someone does ####ty their sophomore year in high school should not mean that are destined to a particular type of career. High school should be a place where you learn a ton of different #### like typing and woodworking and algebra and geography, etc.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

15 year old make terrible decisions. Just because someone does ####ty their sophomore year in high school should not mean that are destined to a particular type of career.

High school should be a place where you learn a ton of different #### like typing and woodworking and algebra and geography, etc.

I agree strongly with moops on this one. I want high schools to offer a broad educational experience that gives kids the opportunity to change their path, as opposed to being locked into something from middle school. Vocational tracks and college prep tracks are fine, but everybody ought to get exposed to both shop and math if for no other reason that to verify once and for all that they're on the right course.

It's fashionable to bust on our K-12 system, and it has some real problems especially in urban areas, but overall our educational system is really good at producing high-performers. If we beefed up the vo-tech side of things the same way that we pour money into STEM (we don't need the same dollar figures to accomplish this), it would be a nearly optimal system IMO.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

..., but you have a tendency to cram a lot of wrong into a very small number of words, ...

This is a first! No one has ever accused me of being concise before!

 

[GoBirds]

Uh yeah.....so where is that money coming from?

Im sure it wont increase cost elsewhere just like my insurance cost that went up 85%.

 

[Jim11]

He should be bold and propose free college for everyone.

Why stop there...free doctorates!

 

[NutterButter]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

15 year old make terrible decisions. Just because someone does ####ty their sophomore year in high school should not mean that are destined to a particular type of career. High school should be a place where you learn a ton of different #### like typing and woodworking and algebra and geography, etc.

if you're not sure, just take the college route electives which would be the same as the current curriculum. You'd be no worse off then you are now if you decided to go trade route after high school. I'd imagine most parents would steer their kids down this route. If you went trade route and then changed your mind after high school, there's always cc to get you back on track. It's nor like you're stuck in a trade for the rest of your life.

 

[Jack White]

hey brohans i would like to see a lot of people get a lot of tech school training i mean things like welding cad deisel mechanics hydraulic mechanics you name it the truth is if we had a really highly skilled workforce we could probably get a bunch of jobs that went overseas to come on home and put places like det and cle back to work if that is what this would do then count me in hell i would probably sign up and try to do a class or two on welding if i could take that to the bank

Welding or run-on sentence creation.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

The estimated price tag is in....

Obama's free-tuition plan to cost taxpayers $80 billion over 10 years

President Obama’s plan to offer tuition-free community college would cost taxpayers $80 billion over the next decade, the White House said in advance of Obama rolling out his program Friday. The federal government would pay $60 billion, while the states would pay $20 billion.

 

[MaxThreshold]

..., but you have a tendency to cram a lot of wrong into a very small number of words, ...

This is a first! No one has ever accused me of being concise before!

...or of being correct.

 

[Jack White]

The estimated price tag is in....

Obama's free-tuition plan to cost taxpayers $80 billion over 10 years

President Obama’s plan to offer tuition-free community college would cost taxpayers $80 billion over the next decade, the White House said in advance of Obama rolling out his program Friday. The federal government would pay $60 billion, while the states would pay $20 billion.

So if they're telling you it will cost $80 billion, what's the real number?

$200 billion?

$500 billion?

$1 trillion?

$17 gazillion?

 

[GoBirds]

The estimated price tag is in....

Obama's free-tuition plan to cost taxpayers $80 billion over 10 years

President Obama’s plan to offer tuition-free community college would cost taxpayers $80 billion over the next decade, the White House said in advance of Obama rolling out his program Friday. The federal government would pay $60 billion, while the states would pay $20 billion.

So if they're telling you it will cost $80 billion, what's the real number?

$200 billion?

$500 billion?

$1 trillion?

$17 gazillion?

Exactly.

 

[Sand]

The estimated price tag is in....

Obama's free-tuition plan to cost taxpayers $80 billion over 10 years

President Obama’s plan to offer tuition-free community college would cost taxpayers $80 billion over the next decade, the White House said in advance of Obama rolling out his program Friday. The federal government would pay $60 billion, while the states would pay $20 billion.

Nothing like another unfunded mandate. And at least triple these costs.

 

[NutterButter]

The hell with that. And while we're at it, let's stop rebuilding our infrastructure until we have the surplus to do so.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

 

[Ilov80s]

Also, I am not sure many people here that are discussing Common Core have a real grasp of it. It's terrible? Based on what? It's working? How in the world would we know? It's been in place for such a short period that we can't know if it is "working".

Please stop saying college kids have a 7th grade reading level as it only discredits your reading level.

 

[NutterButter]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

 

[NutterButter]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

I don't remember electives in high school but it was essentially a college prep private school. There was no trade related classes whatsoever. I'm confused then. If there's all these electives you can take in high school for trades and you don't have to take non-trade related classes in the later years, I'm not sure why there's all this talk about too many kids in college that shouldn't be there. Those kids should just be loading up on the trade related classes in high and then pursuing that area of training further when high school is over.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

I don't remember electives in high school but it was essentially a college prep private school. There was no trade related classes whatsoever. I'm confused then. If there's all these electives you can take in high school for trades and you don't have to take non-trade related classes in the later years, I'm not sure why there's all this talk about too many kids in college that shouldn't be there. Those kids should just be loading up on the trade related classes in high and then pursuing that area of training further when high school is over.

Difference between having electives and having loads of trade related elective classes. Every school is different in what they offer. Certain districts or States have their own graduation requirements. Plus, lots of kids want to go to college because all of their lives they have heard everyone should go to college. I know 17 year olds that are borderline failing out of high school that seriously want to go to college to be a doctor.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Community college is not where student loan debt is being created. It is already affordable, so I do not really understand why we would make it free. As others have said we do not need more people with AAs, we need more vocational training. I firmly believe the entire education system needs an overhaul. It's not that we do not have good schools/teachers, but that we have a bulk of the student base disinterested in the curriculum. We dump all of our resources into getting the failing students up to a passing level instead of improving our top students into the leading innovators of the future. If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is correct. But if more people, who belong in CC or not in college at all to be honest, decide to skip that wasteful year at state college there will be less student loan debt. If more people made the sensible choice to get those stupid gened courses out of the way at the local CC @ $150/credit vs $500/credit at local state school, that'd be a big savings. Plus those gened courses are sometimes taught by the SAME PROF as you'd get at the state school if they are close enough.

I dunno how the proposal is going to work, but I'd rather there be a "reimbursement for passing" system vs a "it's just free for anyone who signs up" system.

 

[NutterButter]

Community college is not where student loan debt is being created. It is already affordable, so I do not really understand why we would make it free. As others have said we do not need more people with AAs, we need more vocational training. I firmly believe the entire education system needs an overhaul. It's not that we do not have good schools/teachers, but that we have a bulk of the student base disinterested in the curriculum. We dump all of our resources into getting the failing students up to a passing level instead of improving our top students into the leading innovators of the future. If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is correct. But if more people, who belong in CC or not in college at all to be honest, decide to skip that wasteful year at state college there will be less student loan debt. If more people made the sensible choice to get those stupid gened courses out of the way at the local CC @ $150/credit vs $500/credit at local state school, that'd be a big savings. Plus those gened courses are sometimes taught by the SAME PROF as you'd get at the state school if they are close enough.

I dunno how the proposal is going to work, but I'd rather there be a "reimbursement for passing" system vs a "it's just free for anyone who signs up" system.

It says you need to maintain a C+ average which i think is too low

 

[NutterButter]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

I don't remember electives in high school but it was essentially a college prep private school. There was no trade related classes whatsoever. I'm confused then. If there's all these electives you can take in high school for trades and you don't have to take non-trade related classes in the later years, I'm not sure why there's all this talk about too many kids in college that shouldn't be there. Those kids should just be loading up on the trade related classes in high and then pursuing that area of training further when high school is over.

Difference between having electives and having loads of trade related elective classes. Every school is different in what they offer. Certain districts or States have their own graduation requirements. Plus, lots of kids want to go to college because of their lives they have heard everyone should go to college. I know 17 year olds that are borderline failing out of high school that seriously want to go to college to be a doctor.

Ok, what I originally suggested was a path where you can take mostly trade related classes in junior and senior year.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Community college is not where student loan debt is being created. It is already affordable, so I do not really understand why we would make it free. As others have said we do not need more people with AAs, we need more vocational training. I firmly believe the entire education system needs an overhaul. It's not that we do not have good schools/teachers, but that we have a bulk of the student base disinterested in the curriculum. We dump all of our resources into getting the failing students up to a passing level instead of improving our top students into the leading innovators of the future. If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is correct. But if more people, who belong in CC or not in college at all to be honest, decide to skip that wasteful year at state college there will be less student loan debt. If more people made the sensible choice to get those stupid gened courses out of the way at the local CC @ $150/credit vs $500/credit at local state school, that'd be a big savings. Plus those gened courses are sometimes taught by the SAME PROF as you'd get at the state school if they are close enough.

I dunno how the proposal is going to work, but I'd rather there be a "reimbursement for passing" system vs a "it's just free for anyone who signs up" system.

It says you need to maintain a C+ average which i think is too low

That's honestly not terrible.

The downside of performance-based reimbursement would be an incentive to inflate grades to keep that govt money coming in.

 

[Christo]

Community college is not where student loan debt is being created. It is already affordable, so I do not really understand why we would make it free. As others have said we do not need more people with AAs, we need more vocational training. I firmly believe the entire education system needs an overhaul. It's not that we do not have good schools/teachers, but that we have a bulk of the student base disinterested in the curriculum. We dump all of our resources into getting the failing students up to a passing level instead of improving our top students into the leading innovators of the future. If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is correct. But if more people, who belong in CC or not in college at all to be honest, decide to skip that wasteful year at state college there will be less student loan debt. If more people made the sensible choice to get those stupid gened courses out of the way at the local CC @ $150/credit vs $500/credit at local state school, that'd be a big savings. Plus those gened courses are sometimes taught by the SAME PROF as you'd get at the state school if they are close enough.

I dunno how the proposal is going to work, but I'd rather there be a "reimbursement for passing" system vs a "it's just free for anyone who signs up" system.

I see where you're going. But if taking a burden away from people is the goal then it seems a little cruel to dump the burden on people who try but are not successful.

 

[Johnny Rock]

America would be much better off if there was a crackdown on "For-Profit Colleges" that add debt to unsuspecting students and little value. Eliminate government loans to this sector.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Yeah, tying GPA to closely to this will create more grade inflation pressure. There's enough incentive to perform well for transfer and/or jobseeking purposes.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

I don't remember electives in high school but it was essentially a college prep private school. There was no trade related classes whatsoever. I'm confused then. If there's all these electives you can take in high school for trades and you don't have to take non-trade related classes in the later years, I'm not sure why there's all this talk about too many kids in college that shouldn't be there. Those kids should just be loading up on the trade related classes in high and then pursuing that area of training further when high school is over.

Difference between having electives and having loads of trade related elective classes. Every school is different in what they offer. Certain districts or States have their own graduation requirements. Plus, lots of kids want to go to college because of their lives they have heard everyone should go to college. I know 17 year olds that are borderline failing out of high school that seriously want to go to college to be a doctor.

Ok, what I originally suggested was a path where you can take mostly trade related classes in junior and senior year.

In most schools I know of you can. The big hurdle is some of the kids that would best fit it, can't/won't pass the initial core classes and never get a chance to take many electives as they are constantly having to retake courses.For example, the high school I work at has art, music, Sisco networking, auto, ROTC, all kinds of computer and web design, cooking, personal fitness, CAD, theater arts and a fully operational print shop with courses at various levels. We also offer a 8 AP courses, dual enrollment at the local CC, plus other math, science, English and social studies electives that would be college prep. This is very standard stuff in Michigan.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Community college is not where student loan debt is being created. It is already affordable, so I do not really understand why we would make it free. As others have said we do not need more people with AAs, we need more vocational training. I firmly believe the entire education system needs an overhaul. It's not that we do not have good schools/teachers, but that we have a bulk of the student base disinterested in the curriculum. We dump all of our resources into getting the failing students up to a passing level instead of improving our top students into the leading innovators of the future. If I were in charge I would filter the students after middle school, with high school strictly being college prep, and take the rest and move them to vocational school. Give the college-bound kids the resources to be successful and give the rest the opportunity to gain employable skills

This is correct. But if more people, who belong in CC or not in college at all to be honest, decide to skip that wasteful year at state college there will be less student loan debt. If more people made the sensible choice to get those stupid gened courses out of the way at the local CC @ $150/credit vs $500/credit at local state school, that'd be a big savings. Plus those gened courses are sometimes taught by the SAME PROF as you'd get at the state school if they are close enough.

I dunno how the proposal is going to work, but I'd rather there be a "reimbursement for passing" system vs a "it's just free for anyone who signs up" system.

I see where you're going. But if taking a burden away from people is the goal then it seems a little cruel to dump the burden on people who try but are not successful.

Nothing wrong with learning a little lesson from failure. It's just a $1000 lesson instead of a $10,000 one.

 

[Short Corner]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

They start splitting them after 4th grade here. They go to Mittelschule, Realschule, or Gymnasium. Lot of stress inour house this year as my son is a little behind in German as it was his second language, although he should have the math scores to balance it.

 

[Short Corner]

Not sure why you couldn't follow a structure similar to college where the first year or two of high school, you take general ed courses which are just good for anyone to learn regardless of your career and then the final two years you branch out into either some type of votech or more college appropriate classes. No point in someone that wants to go into the trades to take typing while its not essential that someone going the college route to take woodshop. So the last few years, have more like electives that are in line with the path you intend to take.

Makes too much sense to happen.

I think there needs to be more education for trades at earlier ages but what is described above is what happens at every HS I have ever seen.

People have electives at the high schools you've been at?

Yes. Are there high schools that don't have electives?

I don't remember electives in high school but it was essentially a college prep private school. There was no trade related classes whatsoever. I'm confused then. If there's all these electives you can take in high school for trades and you don't have to take non-trade related classes in the later years, I'm not sure why there's all this talk about too many kids in college that shouldn't be there. Those kids should just be loading up on the trade related classes in high and then pursuing that area of training further when high school is over.

 

[Bonfire]

Well clearly a conservative in academia is of little to no value to society at large, but maybe we should look beyond you as the example. But to keep things simple as I disappear from this thread for work, would the multiplier of such a program be below 1? (Such as the .6 or so for paying that soldier that conservative like to fraudulently use as a proxy for all spending.)

"Multiplier" analysis only makes sense if you're advocating this program as short-run stimulus spending. I can't imagine that any of its supporters would make that argument. These sorts of proposals are nearly always put forward for their long-run benefits, not for short-run issues.

Not true at all. Spending on those things that generate a return on investment (i.e. more dollars are added to the economy than are taken out) is a positive. Period.

It's not clear at all that this program will generate any kind of significant positive return. A huge majority of the beneficiaries will be people who were going to college anyway, meaning that society gets literally zero benefit from from this program. Society was always getting the lower crime rates, higher incomes, higher taxes, more creative juices, etc. -- all the spillovers people like to claim for education. The only thing that changes is who is paying the bill.

Also, none of this has to do with multipliers.

But can you please cut out the "means testing" nonsense? I thought you were an economist?

In its current iteration, this is just another entitlement program for the middle class, not much different than the home mortgage deduction. It's indefensible on any sort of economic grounds.

I can get on board with something like this as a program to help the poor improve their lot in life. But my kids -- and the kids of 95% of FBGs -- don't need the government picking up their college bills. That's why I'm for means-testing this. If you want to do this to help the poor, fine. Don't just hand money to the middle class.

It is a societal good for our brightest and best new entries to the economy are loaded with an average $30K in debt? And I'm guessing that those that would benefit the most from this have that number quite a bit higher. Along with other forms of personal credit run up while in school.

The "student loan debt" argument works in my favor, not yours. The reason why people go into debt to pay for college is because they believe (correctly) that they're making a good private investment with a positive rate of return. If that's the case, and it is, then this is an activity that doesn't need any further subsidies. The people who reap the benefits of college are the ones who mostly pay the cost. That's how things are supposed to be from the standpoint of economic efficiency.

Again, if your argument is that this is a welfare / transfer program, that changes things and that's fine. But it's time to drop the argument that this program somehow benefits society overall. This is going to have an extremely low social rate of return because in 99% of cases, all it's doing is changing the name of the entity who signs the check.

(On a side note, the student loan issue is grossly exaggerated and community colleges are the institutions least responsible for this non-problem. Those are side points that I don't want to worry about too much, but you have a tendency to cram a lot of wrong into a very small number of words, and it's important that people understand that the median student graduates with an amount of debt equal to that of a modest car loan. That's not a problem).

IK for the win here.

I always enjoy when people end a statement/opinion with "Period." as if it carries some mythical finality, or is a trump card over logic.

'The sun rises in the West. Period.'

 

[Jack White]

Not true at all. Spending on those things that generate a return on investment (i.e. more dollars are added to the economy than are taken out) is a positive. Period.

That's true in the free market, but not in government.

Governments do not make investments. Instead, they tax (take by force from the productive class) and spend (what you wrongly call investment).

How can you say this theft and redistribution adds dollars to the economy? The dollars are taken FROM the economy before they are spent.

And what about those dollars that are stolen from the productive class to fund the community college scam? What productive purpose could those dollars been invested in had they not been stolen by the state?

Bastiat refers to it as what is seen and what is not seen.