***Official 2012 Hot Stove Thread (1 Viewer)

[shadyridr]

Looks like Diamondbacks are sending Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill (and perhaps another minor leaguer) to Oakland for Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow

Who the hell are Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill? Those names sound made up./mop

The A's total payroll will be less than Pujols' & Wells' salaries.

Looks like Oakland also got Ryan Cook. Seriously, who are these guys? Cahill is a good pitcher under team control for the next 4 seasons.

cahill is a one yr wonder but those guys are no names

 

[boubucarow]

Looks like Diamondbacks are sending Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill (and perhaps another minor leaguer) to Oakland for Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow

Who the hell are Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill? Those names sound made up./mop

The A's total payroll will be less than Pujols' & Wells' salaries.

Looks like Oakland also got Ryan Cook. Seriously, who are these guys? Cahill is a good pitcher under team control for the next 4 seasons.

cahill is a one yr wonder but those guys are no names

Parker has top of the rotation potential. Probably will be in the A's rotation this year. He has a plus fastball and slider. Cowgill seems to be thought of as a 4th OF type who can play all 3 spots.

 

[Billy Bats]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

its not the city, its the stadium which is a dump

Yea, it's the stadium and it's location. The Vet was a dump too, but I would bet to say we had a higher average attendance figure with crappy teams AND a crappy stadium then the Rays have with a contender.

 

[Eephus]

Looks like Diamondbacks are sending Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill (and perhaps another minor leaguer) to Oakland for Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow

Who the hell are Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill? Those names sound made up./mop

The A's total payroll will be less than Pujols' & Wells' salaries.

Looks like Oakland also got Ryan Cook. Seriously, who are these guys? Cahill is a good pitcher under team control for the next 4 seasons.

cahill is a one yr wonder but those guys are no names

Parker has top of the rotation potential. Probably will be in the A's rotation this year. He has a plus fastball and slider. Cowgill seems to be thought of as a 4th OF type who can play all 3 spots.

The Diamondbacks' system is loaded with arms. The only thing that surprises me is that they're trading Parker for more pitching, although Saunders is reportedly on the block. I would have thought their priority would be another bat.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not a big Cahill fan but he might be decent in the NL. Homers could be more of a problem in Arizona though.

 

[Premier]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

The Rays have shown over the past 4 years really good television ratings. Lots of merchandise sales. There is significant interest here, but there is absolutely zero doubt that the stadium location and the stadium itself kills attendance. It's so far away from Tampa that it's laughable.

 

[Premier]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

its not the city, its the stadium which is a dump

Yea, it's the stadium and it's location. The Vet was a dump too, but I would bet to say we had a higher average attendance figure with crappy teams AND a crappy stadium then the Rays have with a contender.

1996 (3 years after a world series) - 2224397 -1840398 - 2118299 - 2253500 - 1991101 - 2284702 - 19977Pretty amazing attendance there. And that's with a 100 year head start and being in one of the biggest cities in the country.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

its not the city, its the stadium which is a dump

Yea, it's the stadium and it's location. The Vet was a dump too, but I would bet to say we had a higher average attendance figure with crappy teams AND a crappy stadium then the Rays have with a contender.

1996 (3 years after a world series) - 2224397 -1840398 - 2118299 - 2253500 - 1991101 - 2284702 - 19977Pretty amazing attendance there. And that's with a 100 year head start and being in one of the biggest cities in the country.

Nice beagling!

 

[shadyridr]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

its not the city, its the stadium which is a dump

Yea, it's the stadium and it's location. The Vet was a dump too, but I would bet to say we had a higher average attendance figure with crappy teams AND a crappy stadium then the Rays have with a contender.

1996 (3 years after a world series) - 2224397 -1840398 - 2118299 - 2253500 - 1991101 - 2284702 - 19977Pretty amazing attendance there. And that's with a 100 year head start and being in one of the biggest cities in the country.

pretty major ownage here

 

[Good Posting Judge]

On one hand, I think Cahill is overrated and his effectiveness is more a function of playing in Oakland than his skill, and moving him makes sense given that Oakland is dead in the water until 2015 or whatever. On the other, I think they could've done better than Parker. Although I guess it's good to get a guy who's already gotten his TJ surgery out of the way.

 

[Brady Marino]

Ok, might have overreacted a bit regarding Pujols taking the money and running from St. Louis.That said, at least this cements Stan Musial as the greatest Cardinal ever.

This was never in jeopardy. Stan Musial is St Louis baseball. Pujols may be El Hombre, but he never was going to be The Man. Don't get me wrong - I still love Pujols; but you don't replace Musial. Now the argument becomes most beloved Cardinals. For awhile Pujols was ahead of Ozzie - I think Ozzie resumes his rightful place at #2.

 

[Captain Hook]

Looks like Diamondbacks are sending Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill (and perhaps another minor leaguer) to Oakland for Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow

Who the hell are Jarrod Parker and Cowlin Cowgill? Those names sound made up./mop

The A's total payroll will be less than Pujols' & Wells' salaries.

Looks like Oakland also got Ryan Cook. Seriously, who are these guys? Cahill is a good pitcher under team control for the next 4 seasons.

Jarrod Parker was a first round pick (9th overall) in 2007. He would already have been in the major leagues for more than his September callup last year but stopped off for TJ surgery. Threw very well last year and many thought he would be in the DBacks rotation next year. Excellent upside for the A's thereCowgill is a very good outfielder - had an excellent 354/430/554 slash line at AAA Reno and more than 20 HR and 30 SB between AAA and MLB last year. There is already speculation he may competer for the CF job in OaklandRyan Cook did very well last year when moved to the bullpen and throws in the low 90s - obviously Oakland hopes he can grow from there

 

[Michael Brown]

I gotta think it's the stadium more than anything in Tampa. The distance to the stadium isn't a valid argument cause to be honest, most Yankee fans who actually go to the games live further than a half hour drive to Yankee Stadium and that place is always close to full. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of other cities too. So if that's the case, there has to be some reason other than distance why the fans won't make the drive.

 

[Premier]

I gotta think it's the stadium more than anything in Tampa. The distance to the stadium isn't a valid argument cause to be honest, most Yankee fans who actually go to the games live further than a half hour drive to Yankee Stadium and that place is always close to full. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of other cities too. So if that's the case, there has to be some reason other than distance why the fans won't make the drive.

No public transportation. It's a pretty long hike man. If you work in Tampa and want to go to a game on a Tuesday, you have to go home, get the kids, double back to the bridge, sit in that awful traffic and then likely get to show up to the game late. There's a reason there is such a drastic spike with their weekend attendance. Just so much easier for the people with the money, and the will to go to drive over on a Saturday. But yes, the stadium blows.

 

[boubucarow]

Cowgill is a very good outfielder - had an excellent 354/430/554 slash line at AAA Reno and more than 20 HR and 30 SB between AAA and MLB last year. There is already speculation he may competer for the CF job in Oakland

Where are you getting this info? I hear 4th OF and serviceable CF at best.

 

[Eephus]

Cowgill is a very good outfielder - had an excellent 354/430/554 slash line at AAA Reno and more than 20 HR and 30 SB between AAA and MLB last year. There is already speculation he may competer for the CF job in Oakland

Where are you getting this info? I hear 4th OF and serviceable CF at best.

Reno is almost as bad as Colorado Springs when it comes to distorted PCL stat lines. Cowgill is cheap and may be Major League ready and inexpensive and has a low salary. There's a MLB rule that you have to play three OFs, even if a team is waiting for its new stadium.The Bay Area is going to have the two worst outfields in the Majors this year.

 

[Captain Hook]

Cowgill is a very good outfielder - had an excellent 354/430/554 slash line at AAA Reno and more than 20 HR and 30 SB between AAA and MLB last year. There is already speculation he may competer for the CF job in Oakland

Where are you getting this info? I hear 4th OF and serviceable CF at best.

from the A's website....."Cowgill, meanwhile, batted .354 with 13 home runs and 70 RBIs in 98 games at Triple-A. He appeared in 36 contests with Arizona, hitting .239 with one homer and nine RBIs and nearly found his way to Oakland five months ago as a talked-about option in the Ziegler trade. Forst noted Cowgill can play center field, which represented a rather big void on the A's roster before Friday. He'll be in the mix for a starting job in that spot come spring, and he can also play the corners"

 

[Eephus]

Cowgill is a very good outfielder - had an excellent 354/430/554 slash line at AAA Reno and more than 20 HR and 30 SB between AAA and MLB last year. There is already speculation he may competer for the CF job in Oakland

Where are you getting this info? I hear 4th OF and serviceable CF at best.

from the A's website....."Cowgill, meanwhile, batted .354 with 13 home runs and 70 RBIs in 98 games at Triple-A. He appeared in 36 contests with Arizona, hitting .239 with one homer and nine RBIs and nearly found his way to Oakland five months ago as a talked-about option in the Ziegler trade. Forst noted Cowgill can play center field, which represented a rather big void on the A's roster before Friday. He'll be in the mix for a starting job in that spot come spring, and he can also play the corners"

Of course he'll compete for a job. The A's only have five OFs on their 40-man: Cowgill, Ryan Sweeney, Michael Taylor, Royals castoff Jai Miller and 27 year old non-prospect Jermaine Mitchell.Lew Wolff should be ashamed of himself

 

[Michael Brown]

I gotta think it's the stadium more than anything in Tampa. The distance to the stadium isn't a valid argument cause to be honest, most Yankee fans who actually go to the games live further than a half hour drive to Yankee Stadium and that place is always close to full. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of other cities too. So if that's the case, there has to be some reason other than distance why the fans won't make the drive.

No public transportation. It's a pretty long hike man. If you work in Tampa and want to go to a game on a Tuesday, you have to go home, get the kids, double back to the bridge, sit in that awful traffic and then likely get to show up to the game late. There's a reason there is such a drastic spike with their weekend attendance. Just so much easier for the people with the money, and the will to go to drive over on a Saturday. But yes, the stadium blows.

Didn't realize the no PT. That's huge.

 

[boubucarow]

I gotta think it's the stadium more than anything in Tampa. The distance to the stadium isn't a valid argument cause to be honest, most Yankee fans who actually go to the games live further than a half hour drive to Yankee Stadium and that place is always close to full. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of other cities too. So if that's the case, there has to be some reason other than distance why the fans won't make the drive.

No public transportation. It's a pretty long hike man. If you work in Tampa and want to go to a game on a Tuesday, you have to go home, get the kids, double back to the bridge, sit in that awful traffic and then likely get to show up to the game late. There's a reason there is such a drastic spike with their weekend attendance. Just so much easier for the people with the money, and the will to go to drive over on a Saturday. But yes, the stadium blows.

Didn't realize the no PT. That's huge.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Cubs fans often being a 30 minute to 1 hour trip from Wrigley. But I didn't realize there was no PT.

 

[Billy Bats]

Not really hot stove....but the Rays locked up Matt Moore for the next 5 years at $14M.

They really need to move that team to a place that will appreciate the genius of that organization.

It's a real shame they're stuck in a non-baseball city like Tampa.

Sigh. They're not even in Tampa. A good 30 minute ride, including like a 10 mile bridge to get there from Tampa.

Exactly. If people were going to ##### about things, it would be nice if they knew basic, reasonable facts. Ps, I love being a Rays fan.

I know the arguments about the stadium being outside of Tampa. The point is their current situation sucks and they at least need to move the stadium if not move the team to a new city entirely. You have every reason to love the Rays and it will really suck for fans like you if they are "forced" to leave.

its not the city, its the stadium which is a dump

Yea, it's the stadium and it's location. The Vet was a dump too, but I would bet to say we had a higher average attendance figure with crappy teams AND a crappy stadium then the Rays have with a contender.

1996 (3 years after a world series) - 2224397 -1840398 - 2118299 - 2253500 - 1991101 - 2284702 - 19977Pretty amazing attendance there. And that's with a 100 year head start and being in one of the biggest cities in the country.

Where did I say we had amazing attendance?! I was aware of what the figures would be around, you're not shocking me. So back to my point...Tampa Bay Rays attendance (with a contender)2009 23,147 (year AFTER WS appearance) Phils averaged 39k in 19942010 22,7582011 18,878So like I was saying, with our crappy team AND crappy stadium, the attendance figures are similar to your attendance figures with a contender. You can build a palace in Tampa, and I don't think you'll get the support. Man, was I owned.

 

[coolnerd]

I gotta think it's the stadium more than anything in Tampa. The distance to the stadium isn't a valid argument cause to be honest, most Yankee fans who actually go to the games live further than a half hour drive to Yankee Stadium and that place is always close to full. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of other cities too. So if that's the case, there has to be some reason other than distance why the fans won't make the drive.

No public transportation. It's a pretty long hike man. If you work in Tampa and want to go to a game on a Tuesday, you have to go home, get the kids, double back to the bridge, sit in that awful traffic and then likely get to show up to the game late. There's a reason there is such a drastic spike with their weekend attendance. Just so much easier for the people with the money, and the will to go to drive over on a Saturday. But yes, the stadium blows.

Didn't realize the no PT. That's huge.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Cubs fans often being a 30 minute to 1 hour trip from Wrigley. But I didn't realize there was no PT.

Rangers have had to overcome the same issue in Arlington where the stadium is a decent drive from both downtown Dallas and Fort Worth with no public transportaion in the city of Arlington (and the city is pretty proud of not having any)

 

[Bogart]

Vince Carter signed a 1 year, $3 million deal with the Mavericks.

 

[RnR]

So Ben Francisco goes to TOR for a situational lefty.

Anyone else feel like TOR is gearing up for a Snider for Gio deal? That leaves Francisco/Thames platooning left.

 

[Samuel L Bronkowitz]

Aramis Ramirez to the Brewers. 3 years in the $34-37MM range.

And now there's word that Grienke changed agents and might want a trade. Lots of speculation around Milwaukee that he could perhaps want a long term deal with the Brewers as well.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Vince Carter signed a 1 year, $3 million deal with the Mavericks.

 

[Daywalker]

Jayson Stark:I cast that vote for Ryan Braun. It was one of the hardest MVP decisions I've ever made.Let's just say it hasn't gotten any easier in the last 48 hours or so.You think I haven't been second-guessing that vote for the last couple of days, since the moment I learned Saturday night what ESPN was reporting about Braun's positive October drug test? Of course I have. Who wouldn't?What we have here is as big an award mess as this sport has ever gotten itself into. And as Jose Canseco would be happy to tell you, that's saying something, friends.[+] EnlargeJerry Lai/US PresswireRyan Braun had a great season, but it wasn't much different from his others.To get news this ugly about a newly elected MVP before they've even officially handed him his trophy? Yikes. Doesn't get much more embarrassing than that -- no matter how Braun's appeal turns out.But now that we've got all that out of the way, I'm here to tell you what we can't do:We can't spray-paint Ryan Braun's name off the list of MVP award winners. We can't rip his nameplate off the trophy. And we definitely can't -- and shouldn't -- hold a whole new MVP election if his appeal gets denied and he's sent away to serve 50 games of detention.I say that as a guy who is trying hard not to rush to judgment in this case. I've read every word written by the two great reporters who broke this story, T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada. I've paid just as close attention to the vociferous denials coming from Braun and his camp.I don't see how Braun talks his way out of this, based on the nearly ironclad stipulation in the drug-testing agreement that says a player can't wriggle out of a positive test by claiming he didn't "intentionally" take the wrong substance. But luckily for Braun, it doesn't matter how anybody on the outside sees his case. He just has to sell his story to his friendly neighborhood baseball arbitrator, Shyam Das. So I'm just like everybody else. I'm anxiously waiting for Shyam Das to clear all this up for me -- and for the rest of civilization.If Das upholds this positive test, it figures to taint Ryan Braun's award forever. But it shouldn't be an excuse to produce a not-so-special election sequel -- MVP Story 2. And here's why:There's no precedentNever in the history of baseball's award voting has any player had an award revoked. Didn't happen to Alex Rodriguez or Canseco or Ken Caminiti when they admitted to using PEDs after winning their awards. Shouldn't happen now.Elsewhere on this site, the always eloquent Doug Glanville contends otherwise. One of his arguments is that just because we've never done it before isn't a reason we shouldn't do the right thing now. But in my view, it isn't that simple.If we overturn Braun's election, does that mean we're going to wipe out all future elections of players who get linked to any sort of PEDs? It should, right?[+] EnlargeAP Photo/Tony GutierrezAlex Rodriguez admitted that he took PEDs during his 2003 AL MVP season in Texas.Or is there going to be a statute of limitations? Would we need to learn of that link within 90 days? How about 120? Before the following Opening Day? Within a calendar year? Seems impossible to establish any fair cutoff date, doesn't it? If the intent is to keep "cheaters" from winning awards, then everybody ought to be fair game, no matter when he won his award or when we found out about it. Correct?So if we're going to hold a new 2011 NL MVP election, how can we not do a revote on that 2003 AL MVP award that A-Rod won -- considering that he's admitted he used steroids on the way to winning it?But wait. Go back and take a look at that 2003 vote sometime. A-Rod was one of 10 players who got a first-place vote that year. Five of them have since gotten tangled up in some level of PED suspicion: Manny Ramirez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, David Ortiz and Nomar Garciaparra. So what would we do about those guys? How could we hold a fair and rational re-election all these years later?That doesn't really matter much now, I suppose. But I bring that up because it's a reminder the information or speculation about those men didn't all erupt at exactly the same time. It never does in these cases.So suppose we hold a new 2011 MVP election and then find out -- even 10 years from now -- that whomever we elect, whether it's Matt Kemp or Lance Berkman or any other guy who seems squeaky clean right now, has some sort of taint of his own? Do we then vote again? Or is this a one-time-only event, like Oprah's farewell show?The point is, once you start, it seems as if it would get impossible to stop. So why go down that road? You're only asking for trouble -- and never-ending trouble, to boot.Braun didn't test positive during the seasonHere's another point we can't ignore. According to ESPN's report, Braun's positive test came during the postseason. So there is no proof -- zero -- that he was using any banned substance during the regular season, on the way to winning this award.That won't matter to some people, obviously. But remember, this is a regular-season award. Period. So if a positive test that comes after the regular season is enough to trigger a revote, then it's time to ask: Would there also be a statute of limitations on when an award winner would need to test positive to crank up the new-election mechanisms?If a guy wins an award and then tests positive in the offseason, would that be enough to redo the election? How about during the following spring training? Or any time in the following calendar year?The assumption by the masses would be the same, right? If he was using then, how naive would we have to be to assume he wasn't using before? Seems like a logical enough argument.But if we're going to adopt that standard, shouldn't that mean that any positive test by any player ever should void an earlier election, no matter how many weeks, months or years later it occurs? And if so, is that enough? How about if a player writes a book someday and accuses a fellow player of using PEDs? Or what if we just strongly suspect a player of PED use, even if it's years after he won his award?Who wants to answer these questions? Who wants to make these rules? Not me. That's for sure.How do we know Braun 'cheated' his way to an MVP?Finally, here's the essence of this argument:We have no idea what Ryan Braun did or didn't do on the way to his MVP award. We have no idea what he took, why he took it, when he took it or how it affected the season he had -- if at all. Some of this might get cleared up at some point. Then again, it's possible that once we hear all the explanations, we'll just be more confused.So here are some facts to consider: The MVP had a tremendous year, obviously, or he wouldn't have won this award. But it's not as if we're talking about a guy who came out of nowhere to have an MVP season. Basically, Ryan Braun just did what he's been doing pretty much his entire career. He just happened to do it in the context of a season where his team finished in first place -- for the first time in nearly three decades.Other than his batting average and on-base percentage, his numbers this year were pretty much routine Ryan Braun numbers. Don't believe me? Take a look.CATEGORY 2011 AVERAGE SEASON HR 33 32 Extra-base hits 77 75 Doubles 38 37 Runs 109 101 RBIs 111 106 Beyond those departments, his average home run distance actually went down, according to ESPN Home Run Tracker, from 408.2 feet to 407.3. And while his slugging percentage and OPS were both up over the previous year, neither was a career high.So we're not talking about Barry Bonds' 2001 MVP season, when a fellow who had averaged 33 homers a year -- for a decade and a half -- suddenly exploded for 73, at age 36. This was a 28-year-old star having a typically great year, in his prime.Which means that anyone concluding that the 2011 MVP couldn't possibly have done what he did without "cheating" is making way too convenient an assumption.None of this is intended to exonerate the guy. Please understand that. If the arbitrator doesn't let Ryan Braun off the hook, it will be his fault that he put a substance in his body that triggered his positive test, even if it was unintentional.If that's the case, he deserves to serve his time. But please don't ask us to vote again on an award he won based on everything we knew at the time we voted. Please.You know, it's only a trophy. If we're going to take that away from him, we might as well strip the Brewers of their division title, too. For that matter, shouldn't we also go back and let the Diamondbacks play the Cardinals in the National League Championship Series? At least we know Braun tested positive during the series that eliminated the D-backs from the great Octoberfest.But it's funny how everybody agrees that replaying the postseason from that point would be impractical. Yet we're all hung up on who won an award -- and redoing the election that made it possible? Seems kind of mixed up to me.I believe in mulligans -- on the golf course. But in baseball? I believe that what happened, happened. And trying to make it un-happen is more trouble than it's worth, even if it taints an MVP award, and the man who won it, for the rest of time.Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com. His latest book, "Worth The Wait: Tales of the 2008 Phillies," was published by Triumph Books and is available in a new paperback edition, in bookstores and online. Click here to order a copy.

Fail on all accounts.Why would we take away Braun's MVP and not Arod's from 2003? Well the season just ended. We didn't find out about Arod until year's later. A revote this soon after the initial vote is much more credible then one year's later.Braun did not test positive during the regular season? Give me a break.Braun #'s were not out of the ordinary? First off, so what. Second, perhaps he's been taking PED's for a long time.Equating revoting on the MVP award to replaying the postseason is ridiculous too.I normally like Stark but this is just a joke of a column. Braun shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. He cheated and taking away the MVP is just a pittance of a punishment compared to the damage cheaters do. Not like we are going to replay the postseason right Jayson?

 

[Thunderlips]

Jayson Stark:I cast that vote for Ryan Braun. It was one of the hardest MVP decisions I've ever made.Let's just say it hasn't gotten any easier in the last 48 hours or so.You think I haven't been second-guessing that vote for the last couple of days, since the moment I learned Saturday night what ESPN was reporting about Braun's positive October drug test? Of course I have. Who wouldn't?What we have here is as big an award mess as this sport has ever gotten itself into. And as Jose Canseco would be happy to tell you, that's saying something, friends.[+] EnlargeJerry Lai/US PresswireRyan Braun had a great season, but it wasn't much different from his others.To get news this ugly about a newly elected MVP before they've even officially handed him his trophy? Yikes. Doesn't get much more embarrassing than that -- no matter how Braun's appeal turns out.But now that we've got all that out of the way, I'm here to tell you what we can't do:We can't spray-paint Ryan Braun's name off the list of MVP award winners. We can't rip his nameplate off the trophy. And we definitely can't -- and shouldn't -- hold a whole new MVP election if his appeal gets denied and he's sent away to serve 50 games of detention.I say that as a guy who is trying hard not to rush to judgment in this case. I've read every word written by the two great reporters who broke this story, T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada. I've paid just as close attention to the vociferous denials coming from Braun and his camp.I don't see how Braun talks his way out of this, based on the nearly ironclad stipulation in the drug-testing agreement that says a player can't wriggle out of a positive test by claiming he didn't "intentionally" take the wrong substance. But luckily for Braun, it doesn't matter how anybody on the outside sees his case. He just has to sell his story to his friendly neighborhood baseball arbitrator, Shyam Das. So I'm just like everybody else. I'm anxiously waiting for Shyam Das to clear all this up for me -- and for the rest of civilization.If Das upholds this positive test, it figures to taint Ryan Braun's award forever. But it shouldn't be an excuse to produce a not-so-special election sequel -- MVP Story 2. And here's why:There's no precedentNever in the history of baseball's award voting has any player had an award revoked. Didn't happen to Alex Rodriguez or Canseco or Ken Caminiti when they admitted to using PEDs after winning their awards. Shouldn't happen now.Elsewhere on this site, the always eloquent Doug Glanville contends otherwise. One of his arguments is that just because we've never done it before isn't a reason we shouldn't do the right thing now. But in my view, it isn't that simple.If we overturn Braun's election, does that mean we're going to wipe out all future elections of players who get linked to any sort of PEDs? It should, right?[+] EnlargeAP Photo/Tony GutierrezAlex Rodriguez admitted that he took PEDs during his 2003 AL MVP season in Texas.Or is there going to be a statute of limitations? Would we need to learn of that link within 90 days? How about 120? Before the following Opening Day? Within a calendar year? Seems impossible to establish any fair cutoff date, doesn't it? If the intent is to keep "cheaters" from winning awards, then everybody ought to be fair game, no matter when he won his award or when we found out about it. Correct?So if we're going to hold a new 2011 NL MVP election, how can we not do a revote on that 2003 AL MVP award that A-Rod won -- considering that he's admitted he used steroids on the way to winning it?But wait. Go back and take a look at that 2003 vote sometime. A-Rod was one of 10 players who got a first-place vote that year. Five of them have since gotten tangled up in some level of PED suspicion: Manny Ramirez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, David Ortiz and Nomar Garciaparra. So what would we do about those guys? How could we hold a fair and rational re-election all these years later?That doesn't really matter much now, I suppose. But I bring that up because it's a reminder the information or speculation about those men didn't all erupt at exactly the same time. It never does in these cases.So suppose we hold a new 2011 MVP election and then find out -- even 10 years from now -- that whomever we elect, whether it's Matt Kemp or Lance Berkman or any other guy who seems squeaky clean right now, has some sort of taint of his own? Do we then vote again? Or is this a one-time-only event, like Oprah's farewell show?The point is, once you start, it seems as if it would get impossible to stop. So why go down that road? You're only asking for trouble -- and never-ending trouble, to boot.Braun didn't test positive during the seasonHere's another point we can't ignore. According to ESPN's report, Braun's positive test came during the postseason. So there is no proof -- zero -- that he was using any banned substance during the regular season, on the way to winning this award.That won't matter to some people, obviously. But remember, this is a regular-season award. Period. So if a positive test that comes after the regular season is enough to trigger a revote, then it's time to ask: Would there also be a statute of limitations on when an award winner would need to test positive to crank up the new-election mechanisms?If a guy wins an award and then tests positive in the offseason, would that be enough to redo the election? How about during the following spring training? Or any time in the following calendar year?The assumption by the masses would be the same, right? If he was using then, how naive would we have to be to assume he wasn't using before? Seems like a logical enough argument.But if we're going to adopt that standard, shouldn't that mean that any positive test by any player ever should void an earlier election, no matter how many weeks, months or years later it occurs? And if so, is that enough? How about if a player writes a book someday and accuses a fellow player of using PEDs? Or what if we just strongly suspect a player of PED use, even if it's years after he won his award?Who wants to answer these questions? Who wants to make these rules? Not me. That's for sure.How do we know Braun 'cheated' his way to an MVP?Finally, here's the essence of this argument:We have no idea what Ryan Braun did or didn't do on the way to his MVP award. We have no idea what he took, why he took it, when he took it or how it affected the season he had -- if at all. Some of this might get cleared up at some point. Then again, it's possible that once we hear all the explanations, we'll just be more confused.So here are some facts to consider: The MVP had a tremendous year, obviously, or he wouldn't have won this award. But it's not as if we're talking about a guy who came out of nowhere to have an MVP season. Basically, Ryan Braun just did what he's been doing pretty much his entire career. He just happened to do it in the context of a season where his team finished in first place -- for the first time in nearly three decades.Other than his batting average and on-base percentage, his numbers this year were pretty much routine Ryan Braun numbers. Don't believe me? Take a look.CATEGORY 2011 AVERAGE SEASON HR 33 32 Extra-base hits 77 75 Doubles 38 37 Runs 109 101 RBIs 111 106 Beyond those departments, his average home run distance actually went down, according to ESPN Home Run Tracker, from 408.2 feet to 407.3. And while his slugging percentage and OPS were both up over the previous year, neither was a career high.So we're not talking about Barry Bonds' 2001 MVP season, when a fellow who had averaged 33 homers a year -- for a decade and a half -- suddenly exploded for 73, at age 36. This was a 28-year-old star having a typically great year, in his prime.Which means that anyone concluding that the 2011 MVP couldn't possibly have done what he did without "cheating" is making way too convenient an assumption.None of this is intended to exonerate the guy. Please understand that. If the arbitrator doesn't let Ryan Braun off the hook, it will be his fault that he put a substance in his body that triggered his positive test, even if it was unintentional.If that's the case, he deserves to serve his time. But please don't ask us to vote again on an award he won based on everything we knew at the time we voted. Please.You know, it's only a trophy. If we're going to take that away from him, we might as well strip the Brewers of their division title, too. For that matter, shouldn't we also go back and let the Diamondbacks play the Cardinals in the National League Championship Series? At least we know Braun tested positive during the series that eliminated the D-backs from the great Octoberfest.But it's funny how everybody agrees that replaying the postseason from that point would be impractical. Yet we're all hung up on who won an award -- and redoing the election that made it possible? Seems kind of mixed up to me.I believe in mulligans -- on the golf course. But in baseball? I believe that what happened, happened. And trying to make it un-happen is more trouble than it's worth, even if it taints an MVP award, and the man who won it, for the rest of time.Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com. His latest book, "Worth The Wait: Tales of the 2008 Phillies," was published by Triumph Books and is available in a new paperback edition, in bookstores and online. Click here to order a copy.

Fail on all accounts.Why would we take away Braun's MVP and not Arod's from 2003? Well the season just ended. We didn't find out about Arod until year's later. A revote this soon after the initial vote is much more credible then one year's later.Braun did not test positive during the regular season? Give me a break.Braun #'s were not out of the ordinary? First off, so what. Second, perhaps he's been taking PED's for a long time.Equating revoting on the MVP award to replaying the postseason is ridiculous too.I normally like Stark but this is just a joke of a column. Braun shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. He cheated and taking away the MVP is just a pittance of a punishment compared to the damage cheaters do. Not like we are going to replay the postseason right Jayson?

Stark's consistent in regards to his PED HOF view.

 

[Eephus]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

 

[Premier]

Yea Jesus that is a huge haul for Latos. Holy crap.

 

[Limp Ditka]

So the Padres have already given up on Rizzo?

 

[Premier]

So the Padres have already given up on Rizzo?

Already rumors on twitter about him coming to the Rays for a starting pitcher.

 

[Limp Ditka]

So the Padres have already given up on Rizzo?

Already rumors on twitter about him coming to the Rays for a starting pitcher.

Saw that on Rotoworld too. They mentioned Wade Davis

 

[fasteddie_21]

Yea Jesus that is a huge haul for Latos. Holy crap.

It looks every bit worth it, too.Fangraphs take

 

[Limp Ditka]

Yea Jesus that is a huge haul for Latos. Holy crap.

It looks every bit worth it, too.Fangraphs take

Fangraphs isn't taking into account the Dusty factor. He'll kill that kid in 3 years.

 

[Balco]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

I think it is pretty fair value for a number 1 who is under team control for 4 more years. Obviously, Alonso is the key, I think he is a can't miss prospect. I like the deal for both teams.

 

[GOB]

Jesus, Reds wtf are we doing?

 

[shadyridr]

latos is a young stud. u dont trade guys like that away if your san diego imo. great move by cincy imo

 

[Hoos First]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

 

[shuke]

Reds fan here. Yea, that's steep, but I'll take it. But I had no visions of keeping Alonso or Grandal this offseason. Don't care about Volquez. What I think stings is having to throw in Boxberger, who I thought was the closer of the future.

 

[shuke]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

 

[curta269]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

I think Alonso will be a stud. Padres really need some hitting. Good move for them, and the Reds needed an ace.

 

[Hoos First]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

He would/should have been the starting LF this upcoming year in Cincinnati. Even if not his 400-500 AB's in Cincinnati would have been better than 600-700 AB's in SD

 

[fasteddie_21]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

He would/should have been the starting LF this upcoming year in Cincinnati. Even if not his 400-500 AB's in Cincinnati would have been better than 600-700 AB's in SD

Pitching and defense win. While his bat certainly plays at .850 OPS, his defense in LF would not work. The dropoff from losing his offense is mitigated by the better defense (if no further moves are made) of Sappelt/Heisey. Plus, you factor in a Top 10 NL pitcher, and this team got a lot better today.

 

[Hoos First]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

He would/should have been the starting LF this upcoming year in Cincinnati. Even if not his 400-500 AB's in Cincinnati would have been better than 600-700 AB's in SD

Pitching and defense win. While his bat certainly plays at .850 OPS, his defense in LF would not work. The dropoff from losing his offense is mitigated by the better defense (if no further moves are made) of Sappelt/Heisey. Plus, you factor in a Top 10 NL pitcher, and this team got a lot better today.

Im talking pure fantasy #'s. Im not talking about who won the deal.

 

[Eephus]

The Brewers reportedly submitted a winning $2.5 million bid to negotiate with Japanese outfielder Norichika Aoki, a three-time Central League batting champion with the Yakult Swallows.According to a tweet by Yasuko Yanagita of Hochi Shimbun, the Swallows announced that they accepted the Brewers' bid for Aoki. The Brewers now have negotiating rights for Aoki for the next 30 days. The Brewers have not commented on the report or confirmed their status in the Aoki posting.The 5-foot-10, 170-pound left-handed hitter slipped to a .292 average and four homers in 2011, after going for career highs of a .358 average and 209 hits in 2010. He was the 2005 Central League Rookie of the Year, batting .344 in his first full season.Aoki will turn 30 on Jan. 5, and could join a Brewers outfield that includes Ryan Bruan, Corey Hart, Nyjer Morgan and Carlos Gomez. Braun is appealing a possible 50-game suspension for a reported positive drug test, but general manager Doug Melvin said the Brewers are "counting on Ryan being in the lineup."

Tony Prush

 

[fasteddie_21]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

He would/should have been the starting LF this upcoming year in Cincinnati. Even if not his 400-500 AB's in Cincinnati would have been better than 600-700 AB's in SD

Pitching and defense win. While his bat certainly plays at .850 OPS, his defense in LF would not work. The dropoff from losing his offense is mitigated by the better defense (if no further moves are made) of Sappelt/Heisey. Plus, you factor in a Top 10 NL pitcher, and this team got a lot better today.

Im talking pure fantasy #'s. Im not talking about who won the deal.

Oh, nm then. My bad. I am talking about just from a beisbol POV, not fantasy.

 

[cheese]

The Reds and Padres announced a five-player deal Saturday, as Cincinnati sent right-hander Edinson Volquez and three of its top 10 prospects to the Padres for right-hander Mat Latos.Along with Volquez, the Padres acquired right-hander Brad Boxberger, infielder Yonder Alonso and catcher Yasmani Grandal.

That's a pretty steep price for Latos

This hurts everybody involved fantasy-wise.ETA: Maybe not Volquez

It hurts Alonso to have a chance to play everyday?

He would/should have been the starting LF this upcoming year in Cincinnati. Even if not his 400-500 AB's in Cincinnati would have been better than 600-700 AB's in SD

Nah Alonso in left was a major failure last year. I highly doubt he was going to start there as bad as his defense is. Without winning that job, he was going to really struggle to get those 400-500 ABs. I think the Reds had to move him and were willing to overpay to make him the centerpiece of this deal.

 

[Kirby]

Reds fan here. Yea, that's steep, but I'll take it. But I had no visions of keeping Alonso or Grandal this offseason. Don't care about Volquez. What I think stings is having to throw in Boxberger, who I thought was the closer of the future.

So... Cueto, Latos, Arroyo, Leake, Bailey, Wood... still try to make Chapman a starter, or is he the closer?

 

[guru_007]

yeah, the more I look into that, the more I dislike that deal for the Reds.

Latos is young and talented, but he's going to need to turn into a super star, top 10 type pitcher for 5-10 years for that deal to make sense. And I just don't see that. He's not all that durable, and while he strikes out guys at a decent clip, he's more a fly ball pitcher and in Cincy, that's not real beneficial.

Alonso is going to be a solid major league first basemen for years to come, and while his path may have been blocked, he alone should have brought a solid 1 or 2 type pitcher.

Volquez is a big question mark, but how quick are we to forget his dominance just 3 years back. Sure, since that time he's had TJ surgery and a rough transition, but that surgery alone can take 18-24 months to recover, and he has not lost any velocity since '08. Plus, he's just 28 and under a VERY reasonable contract. This is the kind of pitcher you want on your team, if he pans out, you get 15 wins at 1.8 million dollars. If he doesn't, well, he has no Lackeyian contract wrapped around his neck. Now he gets to move into an extreme pitchers park?

And then they trow in their 2010 first round pick in Grandal and one of their '09 first round picks in Boxberger, who both project to be near major league ready?

The trade makes sense if you are receiving a 24 year old Sabathia or Halladay, a guy you can pencil in for 200+ innings each year. Shelf life on pitchers is generally not all that great, look at guys like Peavy (who is just 30), Prior, Wood and Webb, so on and on and on. Arms are fragile and the strain put on them is unbelievable.