Because we don't have a 2nd rounder and can better use those 3rd round picks on other positions.
Sam is the 14th youngest starting QB in the NFL. He isn't old.
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*Official 2016 Philadelphia Eagles* - The year of Change (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Deamon
- Start date
Sam is the 14th youngest starting QB in the NFL. He isn't old.
I'm fine with drafting a qb to be a clipboard holder. I'm saying if you just sign who you see as a franchise qb to a fresh 4 year deal when he's only 28, and you sign another capable backup, you shouldn't spend a 3rd rounder (especially when you dont have a 2nd) on a QB. Take a flier on a guy in the 5th, sure.
3rd Round qb's are basically going to be 'groomed' to be a future potential backup. Russel WIlson's come along once a decade.
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Insein
Footballguy
5th 3rd, it's semantics. Basically I want them to grab whoever they are targeting as a QB to groom. If that means taking him the 3rd, 4th, 5th then it doesn't matter. Wherever they think they need to take him, they need a young QB with the potential to grow on the team if for nothing else than to see if Pederson has the ability to grow young talent at the position he played.
With 2, 3rd rounders, that seems like the obvious spot to take a chance on a guy.
All I'm saying is that if they invest a lot of money into Sam, I don't think they will be targeting a QB in the early rounds.
Sounds like they're considering franchising him if he doesn't sign. That's why they're trying so hard to get it done before 4pm tomorrow when they'd have to make that decision.
babydemon90
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
It better not be a ridiculous number.....
If the #Eagles can secure Sam Bradford for $18m a year they have done an extremely good job with the contract. 14th highest league wide.
Sam Bradford will do better with the option to control the Offense the way he wants to. Remember Eagles were one of the few teams to not use the audible.
Report: Eagles to announce extension with Sam Bradford 'soon'
Sam Bradford will do better with the option to control the Offense the way he wants to. Remember Eagles were one of the few teams to not use the audible.
Report: Eagles to announce extension with Sam Bradford 'soon'
Ash
Footballguy
While I'm in the pro Bradford camp, I do believe in hedging at this position because it's so important. Regardless of how you feel about Bradford or whoever your starter is, I think it's worth taking a QB somewhere between Round 2 and Round 4/5 every 2 or 3 years.
Insein
Footballguy
Very much disagree. Unless we can safely get out of it after 1 year, then the trade off is understandable.
Let's face it, you're going to be unhappy either way. And you're going to be that fan all offseason that keeps bringing up "see we shouldn't have signed him" every interception he throws and live in the past like you did with Foles. Let's hope you can refrain yourself from being that guy again this year. He's signing here, just go with it and cheer for the guy.
Right, but we don't have a round 2. I think we can be very close to where we need to be if we use those 1st/3rd rounders on OL, DB, and maybe even WR. I'd be happy with some flier in the 4th/5th for sure as our clipboard holder over some vet. But have zero expectations of that guy ever being our starting QB during a playoff run.
Insein
Footballguy
I'm not even concerned about a late round QB not becoming a starter. When Bradford leads us to 7 to 9 wins a year or 2 in a row, I'd like to be able to move on easily at that point.
Bradford at $12-15m a year? Doesn't kill us. It's like having a Fitzpatrick type player. We're probably not going anywhere but at least it doesn't hinder us from resigning guys elsewhere.
Bradford at $16-17m a year. We're upping the ante a bit but still not a killer. Would just need to have wiggle room at other positions.
Bradford at $18m + means the Eagles think they have they're guy. Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, they feel Bradford is good enough to win. So they better. They need to be in the running for the division AT LEAST if not outright win it. 9 wins has to be the minimum goal. No less. Barring the defense being an utter disaster and offense is scoring 22+ per game (offense only Eagles 20.8 ppg for 17th ranked, NFL 12th was 22). Any playoff win is just a bonus at that point in year 1. Year 2 needs to be division and a playoff win moving towards a deep run year 3. Any expectation of less then what are we doing?
Bradford at $12-15m a year? Doesn't kill us. It's like having a Fitzpatrick type player. We're probably not going anywhere but at least it doesn't hinder us from resigning guys elsewhere.
Bradford at $16-17m a year. We're upping the ante a bit but still not a killer. Would just need to have wiggle room at other positions.
Bradford at $18m + means the Eagles think they have they're guy. Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, they feel Bradford is good enough to win. So they better. They need to be in the running for the division AT LEAST if not outright win it. 9 wins has to be the minimum goal. No less. Barring the defense being an utter disaster and offense is scoring 22+ per game (offense only Eagles 20.8 ppg for 17th ranked, NFL 12th was 22). Any playoff win is just a bonus at that point in year 1. Year 2 needs to be division and a playoff win moving towards a deep run year 3. Any expectation of less then what are we doing?
Bradford at 17 M / year - No massive pressure.
Bradford at 18 M / year - We need to win at least 9 games and the division.
You're really obsessed with the number. With Howie's skills, and the fact that the cap is going to go way up, 1 or 2 extra million every year isn't going to make or break our team. You're assuming we max out our cap every year, everything fits perfectly in the puzzle and that 1-2 M per year would have automatically been spend on a guy who was a FA, and wanted to come to Philly for exactly that salary. Or that Cox would walk away for X million per year, but would stay for X+1 million per year. I don't think the 1-2 M / year makes that much of a difference at the QB position to accurately say it would hinder our team or other positions.
Insein
Footballguy
When you hit a certain number, it signifies how serious the team considers the guy. $18m+ means they consider him a top tier QB capable of taking them where they want to go. Even if I don't think that, that's what the money means. So yea money goes up, expectations go up. Why do you think Ryan Howard was so criticized in this town after he signed for $25m per year while Utley got a pass at $15m per year?
in 2 years, an 18/year contract will be average for an nfl starter. 18M/year is no longer "top tier" and definitely won't be in a couple years.
It's not that complicated. The Eagles see him as an above average QB that has top 10 potential. They probably see him around the 10th-15th best QB in the NFL, and his contract is likely going to be around 17 M/year which is what the 17th highest paid QB in the NFL makes. Good bargain.
Insein
Footballguy
In 2 years he may not be on the team. Right now, this year $18m+ per year is good for 11th and possibly 10th if Kaep is cut. That would.mean Eagles think he's a game changer and not just a game manager.
Insein
Footballguy
Ok, at 18M he's 14th highest paid QB, at 17M he's 17th highest. I don't see that big of a difference. If we see him even at the lower end of the 10-15th best QB, both are good values, especially considering the cap is going to go up and bigger contracts are going to hit.
Even at a whopping 19 Mil, he's the 12th highest paid QB (13th once Luck signs) and I think that's fair considering I see him right in that QB10-15 range. At 18-19 M/year your expectations of him are that he isn't elite, but that he is better then average and is good enough to get you to the playoffs and maybe beyond depending on how good your team is.
My expectations aren't dependent on an extra Million here or there on his contract. My expectations are that he plays well like he did the 2nd half of last season. Not elite, but that he is accurate, limits his turnovers a bit better then last year, and that we are close to the 8-9 wins I expect this year.
My expectations for Chase would be 6 wins. For a 3rd round rookie would be 5 wins.
Insein
Footballguy
No he's not. 13th is Tony Romo at $18m. 12th is Jay Cutler at $18.1m. Kaep is 11th at $19m. So he would be in that range if he's $18+. Top 12. 12 teams make the playoffs. Not unreasonable to think he should make the playoffs as one of the 12 highest paid QBs.
Insein
Footballguy
Which is why the money matters. 8 or 9 wins with a $12-$15m QB is about expected if not exceeding expectations. For a team with an $18m+ QB, that is underachieving.
I was using this... www.overthecap.com/position/quarterback/ - which puts him at 13th/14th at 18M.
So using your logic, if he's at 17M, and 17th highest paid QB, not unreasonable to say that anything better then 17th best record in the NFL is a WIN and good value on his contract? If you're going to look at it so literally as 12th best needs to mean 12th best team, then it should go the same the other way.
Insein
Footballguy
Which is why I said $18+
But you understand my point. Price goes up, expectations go up.
Ok. So let's just hope his deal is 17, 900, 000 per year so that you won't go crazy if he wins 8 games instead of 9.
I know the QB position is the most important, but you're talking like every win is on the QB. How many wins we get this year depends on the rest of the team. Talking about 1 Million here vs how many wins it should mean, and ignoring the rest of the team seems pretty silly.
Sam will get what the market demands. As a 10-18 ranked QB, he's going to get between 16-20 Million a year. Wherever he lands in there I'm fine with. I'd rather it be 16, but if it's 20 then I hope he plays a bit better then if it's 16. But it's probably not going to be 16 or 20, its probably going to be 17-18 which puts him right around where most of us see him... in the 13-16 QB range in the league and amounting to anywhere from 7-9 wins depending on how good the rest of the team is.
Insein
Footballguy
You are being purposely obtuse but you get the idea. If he costs less, I will still be annoyed of we only win 8 but it will be a "Well we knew what we were getting, an average QB." If he's paid more the annoyance level will go up because we will feel cheated if this guy is just average.
You sure have put yourself in a non risky position where we're either okay and you can complain here, or where we're good and you can celebrate your team winning.
If we pay the guy 18 Mil, he should play like QB14, and we should win 8 games and be the 14th best team in the league. So don't complain if that happens. And if its better then that and win 9 and make the playoffs, don't complain and say 'well he exceeded what he should have done but it's not good enough, we lost the playoffs so we should have tried a 3rd round qb instead'.
If Sam is paid like the 14th best QB in the NFL, if he exceeds that and we exceed the 14th best record will you be able to admit that it was a good signing and you're happy with it? Or are you going to play the "I told you so" game until we make a deep playoff run or win a SB.
Well let's wait and see what the deal is tomorrow and then you can say objectively how many wins we would need that year for you to say "ok i'm happy we signed him"
babydemon90
Footballguy
IF we sign him to a long term deal, the key point will be less about the per-year amount, and more about what do we do after 2 years if he sinks. Bottom line - if the deal gives us enough room under the cap to maneuver over the next 2 years, and if we can cut him in 2018 if things go south - it's a good deal. If he does well, we'll extend him anyway, but we'll want an out if not.
This whole discussion has gone from bad to just plain stupid. QB15 doesn't mean 8-8 any more than QB20 means 7-9 any more than QB10 means 9-7. A QB 25 can win a Superbowl with the league's best defense, and a QB5 can miss the playoffs with no running game and a sub par defense.
QB might be the most important position on the team, BUT IT'S STILL A TEAM %#^&%* GAME.
If we pay average starter money and the QB isn't the reason we miss the playoffs, then it was the right move. If we pay average starter money and we make the playoffs but not because of the QB, it's STILL the right move. The only way it becomes the wrong move if we pay AVERAGE STARTER MONEY is if the QB tanks and is the PRIMARY reason we miss the playoffs.
This I do know: it's not that hard for a team with an average QB to make the playoffs, but it's damn near impossible for a team with a bad QB to make it. Locking up a guy you know is at least average for average money is a NO-#^%*(#-BRAINER.
Let's stop this stupid frigging argument and talk about what else we need in FA and draft
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Insein
Footballguy
Well he ain't signed yet.
And it certainly is as hard to make the playoffs with an average QB as a bad one. Yea one or 2 get in each year but they generally don't do much unless the team has an incredible defense. Denver, KC, Houston. Denver had #1 defense and Peyton threw 55 TDs 2 seasons ago. So its not like they were going away from him at the start of the year. Houston #3, win division with no Luck and humiliated by KC #3 in scoring Defense. KC then gets thumped against better competition. Maybe Washington in NFC but against an awful division. Then bounced 1st round. All these average QBs did as well as the bad ones would have with the same defenses. The teams with the above average QBs (even ones past their prime) get further.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I think Sam ends up an Eagle today regardless of he's tagged or signed long term.
The more I look at the draft we should be absolutely fine at 13 with as much as we need.
The more I look at the draft we should be absolutely fine at 13 with as much as we need.
Insein
Footballguy
If they sign Bradford, I think they will trade back depending on where they think Conklin will go or if Stanley is available at all. Try to see if they can recoup that 2nd round pick.
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Thank you. Holy crap, Insein. You are obsessed! You do realize that this isn't NBA basketball, right? Bradford isn't going to single-handedly guarantee them a playoff spot. I believe a few other players will be taking the field too. Kirk Cousins is getting franchise tagged. He'll make 20 million this year. If we can sign Bradford for 17 or 18 million, with options to get out after two years without horrible cap ramifications, it's a great deal.
