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*** Official 2017 Atlantic Hurricane Season Thread *** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mjolnirs
- Start date
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Koya, I like you. You are from Long Island, and that is where I spent the bulk of my youth. But, with all due respect, I'm a bit sick of the people piling on saying that it's a drainage problem or an infrastructure problem. I understand from the outside looking in, things could have been different. The only thread I can think of where I stepped in and expressed such is the Fukushima thread and how Japan could have prepared better for the tsunami. But in retrospect I had no idea, I was just fearful of the global implications of a nuclear meltdown and it concerned me greatly.
But, with all due respect, and I have no idea how YOU would have done civil engineered this city differently, but I do not believe there is much the people in Kingwood right not feel that zoning would have made one ####### bit of difference for the San Jacinto west fork overflowing had a damn bit to do with concrete slabs.
This is historical flooding - from 50+ inches of rain falling over a 3 day period. As Jeff Lindnor has posted, there is not a region on earth that is prepared for this kind of flooding. Frankly, I'm shocked the devastation is limited to flooding and not significant loss of life.
I would love to hear how you would have changed things within a reasonable budget. But of course this is all hindsight. Because honestly, what's done is done here.
I'm not going to post in this thread anymore because frankly I know a lot of people that have lost a lot in this storm. And they have not blamed anyone, they have remained unbelievably calm and upbeat and positive. I don't want to add any negativity to this thread. I just really dislike hearing Monday morning quarterbacks saying what could have been done, what should have been done, etc.... I hope if people have the means to help out they do. If they don't, I just hope they ####. I've been blessed in that my family was unharmed. And I'm sure I'm more emotionally involved than I should be.
If you have ideas to help out, please by all means send them to the Houston civil engineers, or Dallas or New Orleans. I'm sure they will be all ears.
i'm out. bye
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adonis
Footballguy
I'd agree that the volume of water dumped in the area dumped, would overwhelm every city in the country.
Unless there was a massive public works initiative to update cities in an age of climate change and worsening weather conditions, we can expect this sort of thing to continue. A similar thing happened in Baton Rouge, LA and surrounding areas within the past 2 years.
When storm system stall over an area and dump an ungodly amount of water...drains can only drain so fast before the get backed up...and if the rains are pouring into the drains too...then the place where the water is supposed to drain to, is flooded, and then you back up everywhere.
It's kinda like a house. You can have adequate plumbing, but if you start dumping tons of water down every pipe, and then in the sewage system you dump tons of water such that the water from the house can't drain to the sewers...then you have flooding in the house. It's not necessarily a problem with the drainage system in the house, or the plumbing, but rather the ungodly amounts of water introduced o the system as a whole in a short period of time.
Climate change is undoubtedly the culprit, and it's tough to redesign cities to a new reality...
Unless there was a massive public works initiative to update cities in an age of climate change and worsening weather conditions, we can expect this sort of thing to continue. A similar thing happened in Baton Rouge, LA and surrounding areas within the past 2 years.
When storm system stall over an area and dump an ungodly amount of water...drains can only drain so fast before the get backed up...and if the rains are pouring into the drains too...then the place where the water is supposed to drain to, is flooded, and then you back up everywhere.
It's kinda like a house. You can have adequate plumbing, but if you start dumping tons of water down every pipe, and then in the sewage system you dump tons of water such that the water from the house can't drain to the sewers...then you have flooding in the house. It's not necessarily a problem with the drainage system in the house, or the plumbing, but rather the ungodly amounts of water introduced o the system as a whole in a short period of time.
Climate change is undoubtedly the culprit, and it's tough to redesign cities to a new reality...
KCitons
Footballguy
I can drink an 8 oz glass of water without a problem. When I try to drink a swimming pool, it causes problems. (brevity)
Koya
Footballguy
With all due respect guru, you are out of your element here. I WORK with civil engineers, traffic engineers, companies that do design build around the world. A part of my current practice (my business partner, not me personally) is providing transportation infrastructure strategies within an urban design and planning context. Zoning is only one factor in this, and likely not at all the one most easy to change nor foresaw even. There are clear investments and changes that could have and SHOULD have been made re: infrastructure planning, design and construction.
The bolded... BECAUSE IT IS. It's as simple as that. Houston's built environment, for any number of reasons, is sorely lacking in regard to how and where things have been built, and the related infrastructure. Like I said, that would not have prevented this disaster, but more well conceived and implemented infrastructure design, in tandem with the use of drainage, local regulations that provided for natural (and man assisted) drainage and water storage, different manners to build roads, highways and intersections... it ALL is 100% germaine to this discussion.
May I ask what experience or backing you have to be "sick" of me and others telling you this? Because I'm working with the people from planners to designers to developers to municipal representatives to traffic engineers and heavy design build companies. They ALL state (with far greater understanding of specific tactics, mind you) what I've put forth.
Long story short, and from the little I know, basic changes would be in roadway design and construction, providing a lot more natural drainage through open space and other land use mechanisms, and to not have had SUCH a reliance on driving only (due to a number of factors, but no zoning sprawl run amock makes houston that much more prone to making a disaster even worse than most places) along with some safeguards and protections regarding the placement of noxious and/or potentially dangerous uses within close proximity to residential enclaves.
Now, that's from me not knowing houston much at all, and knowing little about the situation... but it's apt, and builds upon what my colleagues have stated. And I've listed their qualifications... and since Katrina and especially Sandy, they have all done a tone of resiliency work. So please, you honestly are speaking about something here that you simply don't know. I'm not going to claim to be an expert by any means, but I literally work with any number of them and have for 15 years. This is not up for debate if you understand the underlying facts. There are many, many ways to improve upon how Houston was built that would significantly decrease the impact of disasters. Not eliminate, but decrease. This was a forseen event, we knew it would eventually happen... they build a development pattern with supportive infrastructure that combined to make Houston that much more vulnerable to the inevitable.
It's like, if an 8.7 earthquake hits and a place is completely devastated, you don't say it wouldn't have mattered if they built safeguards up to 8.2 or 8.4 since the disaster was bigger than was perhaps expected to begin with. You build wisely and resiliently, in terms of design, construction, planning and technology. Houston did very little of any, apparently, and her people are paying a dear price.
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BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Preach on brother.
Certainly not a Houston problem alone but in many cities I've worked with as planner, very few listen to their paid professional consultants and choose politics over common sense in many instances when it comes to sound land use decisions. In many respects the problem lies in the ineptitude and short sided vision of elected public officials.
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Koya
Footballguy
Except... it's not.
Yes some measures and interventions are not reasonable... economic realities or existing built environments/systems that simply can't justify complete reworkings. However, there are some basic and very successful measures... it would lesson impacts in disasters such as this but, perhaps more importantly, eliminate and reduce impacts from far more frequent and less intense events (which will likely see a spike in regularity).
Simple stuff, not total reworkings of systems. Find ways to ensure proper drainage. Design and build transportation and other infrastructure with resiliency in mind. Utilize new approaches and technologies, especially when you need to rebuild/repair existing infrastructure anyway. Provide appropriate guidance and restrictions on what can be built, in what densities and where - tied in some manner to the impacts of said development in terms of infrastructure and other systems.
This is being done literally around the world. We are way, WAY behind other countries... but we learned from Katrina. Learned more from Sandy.
To say this couldn't have been avoided (in terms of the magnitude of impact, not that there would be significant negative impact regardless) is incorrect. To say we can't change how we build from this point forward is abjectly wrong - places ARE and HAVE BEEN doing this for years now.
Harvey is certainly an outlier storm in terms of rainfall, but Houston's susceptibility to flooding because of it's development has been well documented long before last week. It isn't blaming the tragedy on development policies to point that out, nor is it Monday morning quarterbacking to mention. It is important context and something , unlike hurricanes, humans can actually influence
gump
Footballguy
Tampa has been the 'most vulnerable' for a few years since I've seen a ranking. No major direct hit in 100 years or minor land fall in 70. Prepping is focused on evacuation and rebuilding. What else do you do in an area born and built on the water? I live in the highest area, 30 min east of the gulf...but dream of moving to the beach.
Tampa Bay's coming storm
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BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
El Floppo
Footballguy
As a NYer, this has been all over my FB feed... the numerous TX politicans who voted against the Sandy relief bill and wondering how they would vote now.
I'm not so interested in seeing a gotcha/hypocrisy moment. I'm more hoping there is no political title for tat retaliation here from NY/NJ pols. I doubt there will be, after what this area went through (and is still going through, tbh, 5 years later)... but my faith in politicians is pretty low.
JaxBill
Footballguy
Yeah this is what I'm watching, not the path. It is so far out it could go from gulf to curving out to Atlantic. Might double check my batteries and other hurricane provisions and clean up some over hanging branches this weekend though. IMO, we really have no clue about this storm until Sunday or Monday at earliest.Kal El said:
Koya
Footballguy
Every NY politician I know if has stated VERY clearly that regardless of the inhumanity of the Texas delegations push against Sandy funds and the utter hypocrisy of their calling for the same monies for harvey, not only do they plan to vote for the funds to go through, but feel this needs to be the utmost priority with no delay.
El Floppo
Footballguy
good stuff.
I didn't type it above- but if anybody I can vote for pulled a petty quid-pro-quo here, my vote is gone to somebody else.
GregR
Footballguy
I wasn't really following the news closely at that time. I gather from skimming articles that they voted no, not because they opposed aid, but because they thought the bill included a bunch of non-Sandy related pork? Which it sounds like a review afterwards found the money all went to Sandy relief so that ended up being not the case?
Regardless, Congress can't have things take so long in situations where so many people are affected. Obviously.
Regardless, Congress can't have things take so long in situations where so many people are affected. Obviously.
Koya
Footballguy
Totally.
But, considering the disgusting, politically driven self serving antics that actually did real harm by delaying Sandy relief for TWO MONTHS with people in dire need, I have NO objections to them pointing said hypocrisy out as they move to quickly help the people of Houston. Hold those pathetic scumbags like Cruz accountable for their actions and misdeeds.
Just do so after helping the people of Houston, first and foremost
culdeus
Footballguy
Cruz just keeps repeating the lie that the Sandy bill was full of pork, which it never was. He keeps this up you could see some people slowing the relief down on purpose to grandstand.
It's gonna be funny (ok not funny, but can't think of a good word here so forgive me) when the Harvey legislation has more pork than the Sandy one because initial read has that as the case.
edit, maybe ironic works in place of funny.
It's gonna be funny (ok not funny, but can't think of a good word here so forgive me) when the Harvey legislation has more pork than the Sandy one because initial read has that as the case.
edit, maybe ironic works in place of funny.
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Koya
Footballguy
The bull#### about pork is and has always been a flat lie.
Which, of course, hasn't stopped Ted Cruz, man of no spine nor moral compass, from repeating said lie to continue justifying his inexcusable actions at the time. And lying about it now by continuing that false narrative is simply reprehensible.
El Floppo
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
btw... I personally had wanted to wait longer before bringing this stuff up. like- after the flooding and Harv remnants were all gone and people weren't still directly affected by this (will be a fine line, I understand- people will be affected by this for a LONG time).
stay safe, good texas friends. and best of luck with the road ahead- we've got your back here.
stay safe, good texas friends. and best of luck with the road ahead- we've got your back here.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
re: the zoning/infrastructure discussion... FWIW, that article that was linked in here a couple of times, showing the flood zoning, previous flooding, etc. of the Houston area was very enlightening.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
This has been pretty badly twisted. Cruz et al never argued that Sandy victims shouldn't get immediate funds to help them and even had a separate bill ready with exactly that.
What they objected to was all the other pork jammed into the relief bill and longer term nebulous future prevention funds mixed in. Their argument was that emergency aid should be exactly that and that everyone loading it up with pork was simply taking advantage of people's suffering to fill the pockets of croneys. For longer term prevention funding, they argued that those weren't emergency funds and should be funded in a specific manner through the normal legislative process.
How that becomes they opposed emergency aid to help victims of Sandy and are a bunch of hypocrites is why our political system is so screwed up.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Pork is the wrong word (and a mistake I made in my previous post as well).
There's no question that a large part of the money was spent on longer term projects or preventative projects that weren't emergency in nature.
I distinctly remember the arguments made during the process saying that the only way to get longer term improvement money was to take advantage of the current situation and include that spending in that bill. It might be a valid argument, but it still is circumventing the proper legislative process.
Koya
Footballguy
That would all be well and good.... if true.
The reality is the pork line was BS, the funding was almost all legitimate and response related. As noted above, although I don't know this myself, the bill being prepared now may well have more 'pork' thank did the Sandy bill.
Cruz et all played with people's livelihood and well being not because of pork, but because of political grandstanding in the context of a Dem pres and blue state. Flat out.
What more could you expect from a man who supported Trump after the repeated disgusting and underhanded assertions made about he and his family?
Koya
Footballguy
Thanks for the clarity and there is some room for discussion on these points. My understanding is that in addition to most if not all funds being disaster related, a vast majority were indeed immediate or near future needs, but I won't profess to know all the specific details.
El Floppo
Footballguy
PIK95
Footballguy
As for Irma, it looks like 95% of the runs have it hitting SOMEWHERE as a pretty powerful hurricane.
I wonder if any northern politicians will delay movement on Houston relief until they have a better idea of where Irma is going? Kinda a "Ill approve yours if you approve mine scenario." Crazy times we live in that we even have to think like this.
I wonder if any northern politicians will delay movement on Houston relief until they have a better idea of where Irma is going? Kinda a "Ill approve yours if you approve mine scenario." Crazy times we live in that we even have to think like this.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I agree that the description of it including pork is off base. But there's debate on if a lot of the funds were not really emergency funds.
Even the treatment of how some of the money that was spent is not really as clear as some of these groups "rating" Cruz's claims make it seem. Sure, most of the HUD funds were spent in Sandy hit states, but there is no data showing what that $10B was actually spent on.
That's the danger of passing emergency spending bills will few taxpayer safeguards built in and large numbers.
We certainly want to provide funds and assistance to areas hit by devastation natural disasters, but it can't just be a free for all unlimited spending spree with no way to make sure there isn't rampant fraud and abuse.
IMO, the real failure is our government's failure to put in place measures to quickly and effectively designate emergency aid in the first place. Trying to do it all from scratch for each disaster is a recipe for both slowing down the process and opening it up to fraud and abuse.
I certainly agree with the idea that more money needs to be invested in our infrastructure as well. It will be far cheaper in the long run to pay for preventative measures now. But that's going to require people to accept a lower standard of living and cuts in other areas to get there, and frankly I think that Americans are so focused on the short term that it will never happen like it should.
ETA: and others are right, not the place for this.
Bottom line, we need to do a better job preparing ahead of time rather than leaving it to the mess it will be after.
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PIK95
Footballguy
I think its pretty relevant. If we were strictly talking forecasts in here like the old days than I would agree. There has also been relief talk in this thread which probably doesn't belong if its just weather. But it's not.
Nice post Grove. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I agree with alot of what you are saying.
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Brady Marino
Footballguy
So using your logic, because we're talking about helping victims of hurricanes, we also must bring political dooshbaggery into it.
No, that's not how it works. Maybe in that cesspool that they call the Political Forum, but GTFO with that ####.
El Floppo
Footballguy
seems like people are still actively dealing with the flooding and immediate consequences right now- in Houston and LA. I personally feel like that's better suited for this thread than the political wrangling that will go into the relief package to help these people... just my 2.
PIK95
Footballguy
It seems like we are actually having a pretty civil conversation about relevant material. I see no Dooshbaggeru here?
Brady Marino
Footballguy
We're being fine. It's the politicians that are being dooshbags and I'm sick of hearing about it.
PIK95
Footballguy
I have no interest in going into relief package details or rescue info much more. I just want weather geek stuff myself. That being said if people want to branch out into other stuff I have no issues with that. It's all interconnected. Brady Marino, were you even involves in our conversation? Why do you even care?
seems like people are still actively dealing with the flooding and immediate consequences right now- in Houston and LA. I personally feel like that's better suited for this thread than the political wrangling that will go into the relief package to help these people... just my 2.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
PIK95
Footballguy
I just looked and you haven't even listed in the last couple of pages in this thread except to complain about our recent conversation that is off topic. Why are you mad when your not even taking part? Get some Irma info so we can get this Atlantic Hurricane thread back to Atlantic Hurricanes then.
Gawain
Footballguy
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/disaster-politics-can-get-in-the-way-of-disaster-preparedness/
Interesting analysis that shows we can be our own worst enemy when it comes to disaster preparedness.
Until we reward politicians for forward thinking, it's tough to blame them for taking the actions that ensure their continued electability.
Brady Marino
Footballguy
Thanks Mom. Sorry I just wanted to read this thread for Irma information. I'll go sit in a corner now and rethink my life because some dink on the internet is being bossy.
Koya
Footballguy
I'm fine to leave the detailed politics to the politics forum, but as noted, it's hard to untangle the reality of people's suffering with the means and mechanisms by which we can help them - or turn a blind eye.
Let's hope we can all agree that an appropriate aid package is approved in short order to help those in desperate need, regardless of what happened in the past and outside the realm of the general political environment.
I do, however, believe it's more than appropriate to discuss not the politics, but realities of how we might be able to avoid these disasters moving forward, as there's no better time to do so than with faced directly with the stark consequences of not doing so. I see that not as politics, but smart planning and efforts to become resilient.
BTW, is there gas/fuel available in and around Houston? Here in Dallas there have been long lines at stations and some have run out, though nothing compared to the ten day ordeal we faced on Long Island during Sandy. Of course, in that case the weather was quickly turning cold, and much of the gas supply was being used by folks filling up gallons upon gallons for generators. That's certainly not an issue here in Texas, but curious if this (relatively very minor) inconvenience is effecting the non flooded parts of houston.
Let's hope we can all agree that an appropriate aid package is approved in short order to help those in desperate need, regardless of what happened in the past and outside the realm of the general political environment.
I do, however, believe it's more than appropriate to discuss not the politics, but realities of how we might be able to avoid these disasters moving forward, as there's no better time to do so than with faced directly with the stark consequences of not doing so. I see that not as politics, but smart planning and efforts to become resilient.
BTW, is there gas/fuel available in and around Houston? Here in Dallas there have been long lines at stations and some have run out, though nothing compared to the ten day ordeal we faced on Long Island during Sandy. Of course, in that case the weather was quickly turning cold, and much of the gas supply was being used by folks filling up gallons upon gallons for generators. That's certainly not an issue here in Texas, but curious if this (relatively very minor) inconvenience is effecting the non flooded parts of houston.
Zegras11
Footballguy
You could have easily taken this time to start a thread in the political forum on these issues. Plead do so. Thanks.
Thanks for checking, all my family is safe. Family farm flooded quite a bit, but my parents were smart and moved all the animals to high ground ahead of the rain just in case. Going to have to replace a lot of fences, but that's a small price to pay compared to many others.
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
Yes I have. And snakes. I refuse to go back into the waters unless I have waders. Most only in the water now with boats, kayaks or waders. Not worth the risk. Have not heard any reports of gators yet.
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CurlyNight
Footballguy
Love hearing the stories of people forgoing profit in their businesses to help. Just saw a chef who was a contestant on one of those food shows who has banned together with others in getting food out to those in need. Another guy turned all his furniture stores into shelters. People putting people ahead of profit is how it should be in such times. Then I heard some gas stations are price gouging. If you see any, contact the attorney general's office to report it and they will take care of it. God's speed. xxx
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Bacon is Delicious
Footballguy
Irma looks like it's going to scrape the East Coast...at least it's not going to hit Texas/Louisiana. That'd be catastrophic.
