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***Official 2018 Baltimore Orioles Thread*** Pitching Can’t Get Any Worse (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter avoiding injuries
- Start date
I thought I heard the Orioles will get the gate receipts for the series in Tampa. Of course, the games will have low attendance since the games are being announced at the last minute.
So the Orioles will lose two games of attendance with the White Sox (Wednesday's game closed to the public and Mon/Tues games combined into a single admission double header). Plus there is reduced revenue for the small turnouts in Tampa this weekend.
I am surprised the Orioles did not try to play the games a Nats stadium. At least they could get Oriole fans to the games. Apparently there is enough bad blood between the teams that neither team attempted to contact the other.
MattFancy
Footballguy
They'll get gate receipts, sure. But they won't get money from concessions which is wear they would really make some money.
Apparently the Nats were never even asked to host the games.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
I'm on a train up to NY to see some interleague play.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Pretty cool stadium, but my buddy got annoyed when I was comparing it to camden yards. We really do have the best park. I'd say there were 30% Oriole fans, which is more than I was expecting.
My only complaint was the noise. I swear there was a plane flying over the stadium every 90 seconds. Also, the PA system was extremely loud where we were sitting. You couldn't even talk to the person next to you between innings. Other than that, it was a great park and fantastic experience. I just wish the score was reversed.
They had a shake shack in CF and I had a burger from there for my first time. Very good.
My only complaint was the noise. I swear there was a plane flying over the stadium every 90 seconds. Also, the PA system was extremely loud where we were sitting. You couldn't even talk to the person next to you between innings. Other than that, it was a great park and fantastic experience. I just wish the score was reversed.
They had a shake shack in CF and I had a burger from there for my first time. Very good.
ClownCausedChaos2
Footballguy
Screw Alex Rodriguez and screw the Yankees fans for his curtain call and standing ovation.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
:CONCERNED:
ClownCausedChaos2
Footballguy
Hey, this kid's alWright.
I'll see myself out.
I'll see myself out.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
He had the wright stuff today.
I was at the game and took my 4 month old for her first time. Hopefully I can brag that I saw Mike Wright's first game in person.
I was at the game and took my 4 month old for her first time. Hopefully I can brag that I saw Mike Wright's first game in person.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Any chance you guys think we see Bundy soon? With so many other guys from the 2011 draft making an impact in the bigs, I'd love to see Bundy come up soon. Can he really be any worse than Norris at this point? I feel like our young pitching isn't getting a chance to develop because Gonzalez, Norris and Chen are holding them back.
I am not sure Bundy is ready. Tommy John surgery really set him back. But he has to be ready by next year, either as a starter or in the bullpen. He will be out of options.
I saw Buck's post game interview after Mike Wright's win. Buck said Norris won 15 games last year and you don't just toss that aside. It sounds like Norris will be given many more opportunities to straighten things out.
Gonzalez is a surprising effective pitcher. I thought last night he might have it, giving up 4 early runs. He ended up pitching 7 full innings on 98 pitches. I said previously that I think most teams will undervalue Gonzalez, which means he could stay with the Orioles for a long time.
Chen has also been very effective. He becomes a free agent after this season. It may be difficult for the Orioles to resign him, although if they give him a qualifying offer, the get a compensation pick when he leaves.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
I read they're hoping to have Bundy up to 5-6 innings appearances by the end of the year. Doesn't sound like he's coming out of the minors.
Not much has been written on this: the final arguments for the MASN/Nationals case are done. The basic summary: if MASN loses, MASN and the Orioles are screwed royally. If MASN wins, the case will go to an independent arbitrator which will almost certainly rule in MASN's favor. And MLB and the Nationals will feel screwed.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm gonna need you to explain this to me a little more. How are they screwed royally? Don't they still control 100% of their own television rights (just like every other team in baseball except the Nationals) as well as a 70%+ stake in the network that carries both teams as the moment? And isn't even the figure awarded to the Nats through arbitration close to or less than the average TV rights deal for an average MLB team, let alone one that's #1 in the league in wins over the last three seasons and currently 7th in attendance?
MattFancy
Footballguy
Also, the additional $20M per year applies to both teams, but is also subject to revenue sharing. So MASN loses $40 M per year, and is allowed to operate at a 5% profit per MLB's arbitration ruling. Note that most businesses will not even consider investing in anything not making 10-15% profit. MASN is owned 84% by the Orioles, 16% by the Nationals. So that is $33.6M less for the Orioles. Also, MASN's long term viability is in question, which is a revenue source for the Orioles.
Orioles will get $20 M per year more for team rights, but that is subject to revenue sharing. So MLB takes 31%. So the Orioles get $13.8M. So the Orioles net loss is $19.8M per year.
Using similar calculations, the Nationals net gain is $7.4 M per year.
MLB's net gain is $12.4M.
Also note how difficult it is for MLB to be impartial when they have so much to gain from the ruling.
Here is my own overview of the whole MASN case.
In the current court case, MASN claims MLB's arbitration hearing being unfair and corrupt, with the final outcome already predetermined. The contract document gives MLB the right to be the arbitrator for such a dispute. And it is very difficult to get arbitration rules thrown out in court, but there is precedent for doing it.
From what has come out, it is clear MASN did not get what is written in their contract and the arbitration panel is biased. But it is not clear if it was so unfair and biased that is warrants being thrown out.
If you want to look for the root of the issues, here it is:
When MLB was running the Expos and looking for buyers, they had to appease Peter Angelos for putting a second team in his territory. So MLB create MASN, giving Angelos a very favorable ownership share and a very favorable rights fees agreements. This is all written in a contract.
Meanwhile in order to pump up the price they would get for the Nationals, MLB told the Lerners to ignore the contract language and that the first 5 years of the low rights fees were temporary. MLB would take care of whoever purchased the Expos. So the Lerner's purchase price is partly based on the Bud Selig's word that MLB will take care of the low rights fees after the 5 year reset.
Thus, the source of the dispute is Selig talking out of both sides of his mouth. And now one of the teams will feel screwed when they don't get what they have been promised.
Peter Angelos thought he has a iron clad deal because it is written in a contract. But MLB is trying to circumvent the contract.
One other note: MASN / the Orioles are very confident that if the case gets to an independent arbitrator, they have a slam dunk win. So their only goal is to get it to an independent arbitrator.
In the current court case, MASN claims MLB's arbitration hearing being unfair and corrupt, with the final outcome already predetermined. The contract document gives MLB the right to be the arbitrator for such a dispute. And it is very difficult to get arbitration rules thrown out in court, but there is precedent for doing it.
From what has come out, it is clear MASN did not get what is written in their contract and the arbitration panel is biased. But it is not clear if it was so unfair and biased that is warrants being thrown out.
If you want to look for the root of the issues, here it is:
When MLB was running the Expos and looking for buyers, they had to appease Peter Angelos for putting a second team in his territory. So MLB create MASN, giving Angelos a very favorable ownership share and a very favorable rights fees agreements. This is all written in a contract.
Meanwhile in order to pump up the price they would get for the Nationals, MLB told the Lerners to ignore the contract language and that the first 5 years of the low rights fees were temporary. MLB would take care of whoever purchased the Expos. So the Lerner's purchase price is partly based on the Bud Selig's word that MLB will take care of the low rights fees after the 5 year reset.
Thus, the source of the dispute is Selig talking out of both sides of his mouth. And now one of the teams will feel screwed when they don't get what they have been promised.
Peter Angelos thought he has a iron clad deal because it is written in a contract. But MLB is trying to circumvent the contract.
One other note: MASN / the Orioles are very confident that if the case gets to an independent arbitrator, they have a slam dunk win. So their only goal is to get it to an independent arbitrator.
Swing 51
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Even if we assume your math is correct I don't think a "loss" of $19.8 million a year (which is actually just being required to pay extra compensation on an asset that is still likely priced lower than its actual value) constitutes being "screwed royally".
And we can be pretty confident that the valuation is still well below market value and that the long term viability of MASN is not threatened. How? Because Angelos and the Orioles are under no obligation to remain bound by the agreement made on the Nationals' TV rights in 2005. They have known for years that there was a very good chance that the fee for the rights would increase considerably when the time came. If such a valuation were actually problematic for the Orioles and MASN, why not offer to cut the Nats loose and let them sell their TV rights to the highest bidder? You know the Lerners would happily accept such an offer- in fact they'd likely be willing to pay off Angelos for the privilege.
So why not? Because it's a ridiculous sweetheart deal for the Orioles at almost any valuation. They control the TV broadcast rights of their greatest competitor for market share (to my knowledge the only major professional sports team in the United States with such an arrangement with any other team in their sport) and they'll never have to bid on the open market to retain them. They'll never be royally screwed. At worst they'll be slightly less coddled.
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You have made a number of assumptions that are not true.
1. What makes you think the Orioles are vastly underestimating the value of the Nats broadcast rights. MASN used the same company and the same methodology that MLB has used in every other case to value the rights. Also note, that 5 years ago, not that many people were watching the Nats on MASN. Their viewership is on the upswing, but they can't retroactively price that into the rights fees.
2. MLB is basically telling MASN that they can only have a 5% profit which is ridiculous. That is the profit they used to calculate the Nats rights fees. Like I said before, most any investor wants more than a 5% return on their investment.
3. Why is MASN not obligated to honor the contract to broadcast the Nats. From MASN's point of view, the Nats broadcast rights are an asset and assets are used to make money. By disregarding the contract that is in place, MLB has drastically reduced the value of the broadcast rights for MASN and made them much more valuable for the Nationals.
I will agree that at $60 M per year, the viability of MASN is probably not an issue. When the Nats were insisting on $100M, MASN's viability would be an issue.
Also, royally screwed is entering into a deal, have a signed contract, and then find out the other party had no intention of honoring the deal. I am sure if Angelos knew that was coming, he would have never allowed the Lerners to move a team to the DC area.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The bolded is your problem. He doesn't have veto rights. He was handed the deal because the owners scratch each other's backs and there was, at the time, nobody on the other side of the bargaining table.Marvelous said:
As for your three points:
1. My assumption that they're undervaluing the rights is based on: (1) the going rate for teams in similar markets (even before we get to their winning and attendance numbers- remember they're locked in to this valuation as their appeal has soared) and more importantly (2) Angelos could shed the rights every easily if they weren't worth what he's being asked to pay for them. Just sit down at the table with the Lerners, tell them you don't want the TV rights any more, see if you can maybe finagle a small cash settlement out of them for your efforts, and walk away. We all know the Lerners would happily do that. Yet Angelos given no indication that he's even considered it. Why not? If he was truly being forced to pay more for the rights than they are worth to someone who would rather have the rights than the money. why wouldn't he just walk? I think we all know the answer- this is a windfall.
2. I don't see anyone telling anyone what their profit will be. I see a valuation of an asset. If he wants to make a greater profit he's free to take any number of measures that would make it more valuable- improve ratings by stopping the cheap shots at DC and the clear favoritism of the Orioles, improve the horrible pre and post games and call-in shows, renegotiate with cable providers and the advertisers, whatever he wants to do. Again I return to the idea that he's always free to cut bait if he doesn't like the return he's getting. He's never even mentioned that option, and we all know why.
3. As I said, they are obligated to honor it only to the extent that the other party doesn't want to renegotiate. All contracts can be revised or terminated if both parties are willing. I promise you the other party is willing to terminate.
Look, we're never gonna agree here. I just hope you can see the other side of it. This is a deal unique in American sports, the clear beneficiary of the deal is MASN/Angelos and by extension the Orioles, and the party hurt by it is clearly the Lerners and by extension the Nationals. That much should be obvious. We might disagree about whether the unusual arrangement is a ridiculous scam (my perspective) or a needed tweak to protect an existing team's market share while also making room for baseball to move a team to a larger market (your perspective I assume). But "royally screwed"? That seems a little excessive given that literally the worst case scenario is they cut bait completely and end up in the same situation as the other 28 teams who own their own broadcast rights and nobody else's.
ClownCausedChaos2
Footballguy
So, baseball, huh?
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
PAREDES. That is all
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Ugh. Taking a break from them for a while.
For the most part, the Orioles have been sputtering. They have started making roster moves due to poor performance. Alejandro De Aza, Ryan Lavarnway, and Evereth Carberra have been DFA'ed. TJ. McFarland, Chaz Roe, and Nolan Reimold are on the 25 man roster.
Cesar Cabral, Oliver Drake, Tyler Wilson, Mike Wright, Steve Clevanger, and Rey Navarro have all spent time on the 25 man roster and we will likely see most of them again.
Kevin Gausman is on a rehab assignment and stretching out to be a starting pitcher. Wesley Wright should be nearing a return soon. And Rule 5 pick Jason Garcia is on the DL. Unless they can keep him on the DL for the bulk of the summer, it will be hard to keep him on the roster.
I am really pulling for Nolan Reimold to finally stay healthy and be the player the Orioles hoped he would be for the past 5 or 6 years.
Cesar Cabral, Oliver Drake, Tyler Wilson, Mike Wright, Steve Clevanger, and Rey Navarro have all spent time on the 25 man roster and we will likely see most of them again.
Kevin Gausman is on a rehab assignment and stretching out to be a starting pitcher. Wesley Wright should be nearing a return soon. And Rule 5 pick Jason Garcia is on the DL. Unless they can keep him on the DL for the bulk of the summer, it will be hard to keep him on the roster.
I am really pulling for Nolan Reimold to finally stay healthy and be the player the Orioles hoped he would be for the past 5 or 6 years.
The_Man
Footballguy
Looks like they're coming around - defense and pitching in particular. Still a little worried about the offense, but that's the price they pay for not keeping Cruz.
But I'm encouraged by a lot of what I see. Manny is starting to develop his power. AJ is markedly better at pitch selection. Wieters - as he gets ready to walk out the door - is finally looking like the hitter we thought he'd be. OF corner spots are still a problem, and forgive me if I don't believe Reimold is the answer, though I hope I'm wrong.
On another note, AJ is playing like the CF that he was always hyped to be. Even as he was winning Gold Gloves, I thought his range was pretty average, particularly going back on balls. He is now getting to everything and his arm is a weapon to boot. He started off so hot, and is now getting hot again - would love to see him in the mix for MVP. He is rapidly climbing the ranks of my all-time favorite Orioles. Like Eddie before him, Adam is the guy that you take for granted is going to be in the lineup 162 games a season (though I know he missed a few earlier this month) and give his full effort every night -- even if he doesn't get that much recognition for it because he's not an, ahem, gritty, lunch pail kind of player (if you know what I mean).
They were on the verge of suffering a 4-game sweep in Houston and seeing the season skid out of control when he beat the Astros with a huge 8th inning HR, and they've gone 6-1 since. During that stretch, Jones is hitting .407, has 4 HRs, and his OPS has gone from .818 to .869. Meanwhile, the narrative on talk radio this morning was that the Orioles have really started playing better now that Wieters is back.
But I'm encouraged by a lot of what I see. Manny is starting to develop his power. AJ is markedly better at pitch selection. Wieters - as he gets ready to walk out the door - is finally looking like the hitter we thought he'd be. OF corner spots are still a problem, and forgive me if I don't believe Reimold is the answer, though I hope I'm wrong.
On another note, AJ is playing like the CF that he was always hyped to be. Even as he was winning Gold Gloves, I thought his range was pretty average, particularly going back on balls. He is now getting to everything and his arm is a weapon to boot. He started off so hot, and is now getting hot again - would love to see him in the mix for MVP. He is rapidly climbing the ranks of my all-time favorite Orioles. Like Eddie before him, Adam is the guy that you take for granted is going to be in the lineup 162 games a season (though I know he missed a few earlier this month) and give his full effort every night -- even if he doesn't get that much recognition for it because he's not an, ahem, gritty, lunch pail kind of player (if you know what I mean).
They were on the verge of suffering a 4-game sweep in Houston and seeing the season skid out of control when he beat the Astros with a huge 8th inning HR, and they've gone 6-1 since. During that stretch, Jones is hitting .407, has 4 HRs, and his OPS has gone from .818 to .869. Meanwhile, the narrative on talk radio this morning was that the Orioles have really started playing better now that Wieters is back.
MattFancy
Footballguy
I like Wieters and maybe he has something to do with this streak, but this was one of the best teams in all of baseball over the 2nd half of last year and he played in 0 of those games. I don't think he means as much to this team as some think.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
<--- anti-Wieters. Nothing personal, but the Orioles play with a salary cap. He won't be around next year, nor should he, so get what you can out of him this year and roll with Joseph.
ClownCausedChaos2
Footballguy
I get that Delmon Young can hit, but man, he is brutal in the outfield.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
That parochial crap ran Eddie Murray out of town. Fans blamed it on the media, but the writers only picked up on what Ernie in Essex was spewing. Of course, the same guys were screaming "Eddie! in the mid-90s when he deigned to come back. Murray is one of my favorite Os of all time, but I was half-hoping he'd give the finger to Baltimore and go to the Yankees.
I swear to God, if they run Adam Jones out of Baltimore, I will nuke that dump. He's the best leader that team has ever had - I'm putting him above Frank now - his response to some #######'s question last season directly after the Orioles got swept by the Royals about he felt about the season - "It was ####### awesome" - was fantastic.
I swear to God, if they run Adam Jones out of Baltimore, I will nuke that dump. He's the best leader that team has ever had - I'm putting him above Frank now - his response to some #######'s question last season directly after the Orioles got swept by the Royals about he felt about the season - "It was ####### awesome" - was fantastic.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
To piggy-back my own post, it's not only racism that pisses me off about some Baltimore fans (though I think it plays a part in both Murray's & Jones's cases). They hated Doung DeCinces because he "wasn't Brooks" even though he was a fantastic player. Bert Jones, too, because he wasn't Johnny Unitas.
Anyway, enough grousing out of me on that subject.
They're right in the thick of things. 85 games is liable to win this division.
Some quick thoughts:
Weiters is looking really good. I kind of forgot how good he is, although his bat is on fire right now. It was just before his injury too. That said, there is no way the Orioles pay him what he is worth. Weiters will get $20 M per year.
I am still rooting for Reimold. He is forever in prospect mode, although he is in his 7th year and is 31 years old. Maybe someday it will all come together for him.
Orioles are playing much better now. I think at one point, their top four middle infielders were all on the disabled list. With Hardy and Flaherty back, the defense looks much better. Schoop should be returning soon too.
Weiters is looking really good. I kind of forgot how good he is, although his bat is on fire right now. It was just before his injury too. That said, there is no way the Orioles pay him what he is worth. Weiters will get $20 M per year.
I am still rooting for Reimold. He is forever in prospect mode, although he is in his 7th year and is 31 years old. Maybe someday it will all come together for him.
Orioles are playing much better now. I think at one point, their top four middle infielders were all on the disabled list. With Hardy and Flaherty back, the defense looks much better. Schoop should be returning soon too.
I was too young to know what was going on with Decinces and Bert Jones, although I was a big fan of both, especially Decinces.
By the time Eddie moved on, we had moved away, so I didn't follow all the local coverage. Still don't, I suppose. Huge fan of Murray.
If anyone runs Jones out, I'll be pissed. He's a fantastic player, and appears to be a real leader now.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
I found Crush's homerun ball in my front yard this morning.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Think they were just being cautious. I thouht I read before the game he was sitting due to "general soreness"
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
He should be back in the lineup tonight, but since they are playing the Phillies it might make sense to hold him out another game or two.
