*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (13 Viewers)

[ericttspikes]

Just catching up the last 1.5 pages of discussion. I just read this this morning and seems relevant. 

The Omicron Paradox: If it’s milder, why are hospitals on the brink of disaster?

tl;dr: Hospitals started this wave fuller that previous ones and Omicron isn’t nearly mild enough.

What is the answer re: hospitals and the health care system? These are private institutions who operate like businesses. It's been "hurricane" season for over 2 years. Should hospitals have invested in capacity and staffing in during the past 2 years? I get they are, and have been overwhelmed, but it seems that there are things they could of been doing to not get to this point, maybe not. Maybe they should be nationalized? Don't know. Kind of confusing when during earlier waves there were reports of hospitals losing money because of empty beds and reduced procedures. 

 

[gianmarco]

What is the answer re: hospitals and the health care system? These are private institutions who operate like businesses. It's been "hurricane" season for over 2 years. Should hospitals have invested in capacity and staffing in during the past 2 years? I get they are, and have been overwhelmed, but it seems that there are things they could of been doing to not get to this point, maybe not. Maybe they should be nationalized? Don't know. Kind of confusing when during earlier waves there were reports of hospitals losing money because of empty beds and reduced procedures. 

Remember, it's not just physical beds. You need enough people to care for patients.

And before we get the "guess we shouldn't have fired staff for not vaccinating", no, the problem isn't because of a few workers let go that refused vaccinations (especially when some of those weren't even direct healthcare providers). There's a relative shortage anyway plus burnout plus issues with compensation that's leading some to travel instead of stay where they are.

 

[humpback]

We got an email from the principal today about numerous cases/close contacts stemming from Monday.  Typically the emails from him regarding COVID has said "a student has tested positive" but in this case it is very clearly several students. 

My kids' teachers are also still out this week.

In late Nov/early Dec, we averaged around 1 email per week, always with a single case. By mid Dec it was up to 2-3 per week, still always a single case. By late Dec we were getting them almost every day and it was never for a single case (I think the high was 14?). The last one they sent said that they can't keep up with the contact tracing, and that if you hear that your child may have had a close contact, please assume it's correct and follow the guidelines.

 

[worrierking]

What is the answer re: hospitals and the health care system? These are private institutions who operate like businesses. It's been "hurricane" season for over 2 years. Should hospitals have invested in capacity and staffing in during the past 2 years? I get they are, and have been overwhelmed, but it seems that there are things they could of been doing to not get to this point, maybe not. Maybe they should be nationalized? Don't know. Kind of confusing when during earlier waves there were reports of hospitals losing money because of empty beds and reduced procedures. 

Early in the pandemic, Spring of 2020 the the feds had a significant number of medical personnel, from military and other sources that they dispatched to New York, LA and possibly New Orleans (I can't remember).  They had ships in harbors for overflow COVID-19 patients and they had staff to handle the surges. The surges hit different locations at different times, so they can be sent where needed and then move to the next location. This should have been expanded upon, with new hires at high rates of pay and extensive training in the past two years and instead it looks like it has been abandoned.  

While many hospitals are public and non-profit, you are correct that they operate like businesses.  It does not make business sense to hire staff for these surges when you don't know when or if they will ever be needed.  They probably weren't available anyway. The hospitals I am familiar with are short staffed now. 

 

[Cjw_55106]

Remember, it's not just physical beds. You need enough people to care for patients.

And before we get the "guess we shouldn't have fired staff for not vaccinating", no, the problem isn't because of a few workers let go that refused vaccinations (especially when most of those weren't even direct healthcare providers). There's a relative shortage anyway plus burnout plus issues with compensation that's leading some to travel instead of stay where they are.

Do you have links for this? I can’t find anywhere how many of the over 700 employees that were let go from the Mayo clinic yesterday actually provided health care. I did see a quote from someone lamenting the loss of valuable nurses.

 

[humpback]

What is the answer re: hospitals and the health care system? These are private institutions who operate like businesses. It's been "hurricane" season for over 2 years. Should hospitals have invested in capacity and staffing in during the past 2 years? I get they are, and have been overwhelmed, but it seems that there are things they could of been doing to not get to this point, maybe not. Maybe they should be nationalized? Don't know. Kind of confusing when during earlier waves there were reports of hospitals losing money because of empty beds and reduced procedures. 

I can't fathom how anyone can see how the government has handled much of this and still thinking nationalizing the hospitals would have helped.

This is unprecedented. Many people thought it was "over" after the first wave, even more thought so after Delta, and even more think so now. Omicron came on so fast and is spreading so quickly that there's just no way we could have ramped up hiring and training in time to make a meaningful difference. It comes in waves, and this one came with less notice than before. Hopefully it also blows out as quickly.

Of course in hindsight there are some things that we could have done differently, but the cost/benefit of those are debatable. By far the best cost/benefit seems to be to get as many people vaccinated and boosted as possible, then followed by common sense protocols to limit spread, but we have far too many people who simply won't.

 

[gianmarco]

Do you have links for this? I can’t find anywhere how many of the over 700 employees that were let go from the Mayo clinic yesterday actually provided health care. I did see a quote from someone lamenting the loss of valuable nurses.

I do not. And I shouldn't have said "most". But, a not insignificant number of these employees that make up those who remain unvaccinated are people like plant operations, janitorial and environmental services, secretarial and administrative positions, etc. 

Mostly trying to point out that when they say 700 of 70000 were let go, that doesn't mean all 700 are nurses or therapists or doctors that are doing direct patient care. 

 

[Biff84]

I agree.

How does wagging our collective finger at vaccinated and boosted people for living their lives normally help accomplish that goal?

Living your life is perfectly fine, the problem comes with your constant need to declare the pandemic over because it doesn’t affect you anymore. It’s one step removed from the people who won’t get vaccinated or wear a mask because they are young and healthy and they don’t think it will be hurt them.

Nobody is ‘waging their finger’ at you for living your life. It’s your need to constantly declare it over when it’s far from over most of us due to work, family or care for the general public.

On Monday I told my employees that under no circumstances are they to work while if they’re sick. The reason being that we all have kids starting school and there’s a strong chance that someone, maybe everyone will get COVID in the next couple of months. None of us are high risk and we’re all boosted. We’ll likely be fine and our families will probably be fine but even if it all ends up ok, there will be major work disruptions.

Go enjoy living your life in small town South Dakota just quit trying to tell everyone else that the pandemic is over for them.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I don't see anyone saying that "it's over".

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

YLE: Antigen tests and Omicron

lots of good info as usual from her, but the crux of the discussion on testing:

All evidence has shown rapid Ag tests can physically detect Omicron. In other words, when the antigen test is presented with the same amount of virus for the same amount of time, Ag tests perform roughly as well for Delta compared to Omicron (though one pre-print study reported slightly lower sensitivity with lab samples). That said, every brand of rapid test is unique, and needs to be rigorously re-evaluated. In the U.S. alone, there are dozens of options.

Antigen tests continue to work with Omicron because they target a fairly stable part of the virus called the nucleocapsid or N-protein. Unlike the highly mutated spike protein, Omicron has only 4 mutations in the N protein. Fortunately, none of these changes seem to alter the tiny part that rapid antigen tests detect. This is fantastic news because it means that we still have a tool to help calm the Omicron storm.

 

[Gilroy34]

YLE: Antigen tests and Omicron

lots of good info as usual from her, but the crux of the discussion on testing:

Where does one buy anti-gen tests?

 

[Atomic Punk]

I don't see anyone saying that "it's over".

It has been mentioned at least once a week (or two) for the last number of months in this thread by at least a couple of people.

 

[Cjw_55106]

I do not. And I shouldn't have said "most". But, a not insignificant number of these employees that make up those who remain unvaccinated are people like plant operations, janitorial and environmental services, secretarial and administrative positions, etc. 

Mostly trying to point out that when they say 700 of 70000 were let go, that doesn't mean all 700 are nurses or therapists or doctors that are doing direct patient care. 

I understand that but when you are talking about burn out and staff shortage, even just 3 employees in a specific department can make all the difference in the world. Needless to say, 5–20 can kill a department. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

It has been mentioned at least once a week (or two) for the last number of months in this thread by at least a couple of people.

Oh. Well I've tuned it out for quite some time. 

Saying it's over is silly too. We're all silly now, I guess.

Our nationwide Rorschach Test continues...

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Where does one buy anti-gen tests?

It's what most refer to as "rapid tests." The BinaxNow linked throughout this thread are among the most accurate. But from her link above, there are many options: 

https://www.finddx.org/test-directory/?_region=americas&_test_format=lateral-flow-assay-strip-or-cassette&_assay_target=antigen

 

[humpback]

Where does one buy anti-gen tests?

Wherever you can find them lol. Most rapid tests are antigen, and if they're pcr even better.

Walmart is currently in stock for me but varies by location (keep checking if they're out, they restock).

 

[Biff84]

South Africa made it through with a 26% vax rate, and 60%+ poverty rate. Its mild, and hopefully the beginning of the end of this pandemic.

South Africa also had a significant Delta wave leaving much of the population with some natural immunity against severe illness. They also have a much younger population.

I’d be surprised if we make it out as cleanly at them. We are heading into what should be our peak just at the same time that schools are opening. We’re likely to see a prolonged peak due to spread in schools and back to home. Has there been a wave that we didn’t perform worse than the rest of the world?

Nonetheless we’re looking at a couple rough months and hopefully the other side is much brighter. It definitely could be the beginning of the end but I hope you’ll understand if I’m hesitant to drop the mission accomplished banner. 

 

[ZADO]

FLURONA UP NEXT

 

[jobarules]

I don't see anyone saying that "it's over".

culdeus has been saying it since the spring

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

An estimated 1 in 15 people across England tested positive for Covid-19 in the week ending Dec. 31, 2021, the Office for National Statistics reported Wednesday, up from 1 in 25 the week before. 

This is around 3,270,800 people, with London having the highest percentage of cases at a rate of 1 in 10, according to the data.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

culdeus has been saying it since the spring

Okay. I thought we were talking about a larger contingent. 

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Just found out a friend of my wife's died from COVID yesterday.  Late 40s male, no comorbidities.  Unvaccinated.  

 

[Doug B]

I don't see anyone saying that "it's over".

culdeus has been saying it since the spring

I think @IvanKaramazov would cop to it, as well but he does consistently qualify the statement.

 

[GroveDiesel]

South Africa also had a significant Delta wave leaving much of the population with some natural immunity against severe illness. They also have a much younger population.

I’d be surprised if we make it out as cleanly at them. We are heading into what should be our peak just at the same time that schools are opening. We’re likely to see a prolonged peak due to spread in schools and back to home. Has there been a wave that we didn’t perform worse than the rest of the world?

Nonetheless we’re looking at a couple rough months and hopefully the other side is much brighter. It definitely could be the beginning of the end but I hope you’ll understand if I’m hesitant to drop the mission accomplished banner. 

Yeah, and as the article Nathan posted pointed out, in the US it was already flu season when Delta and Omicron hit. And with less people wearing masks, distancing, etc, the flu actually went around and was already filling up hospitals with typical flu loads. In South Africa, they don’t really have a flu season so their hospitals didn’t start from the same bad position we have started from.

 

[Doug B]

Also, it’s pretty trivial to say “it’s over” without using those words. IMHO anyway.

 

[ericttspikes]

Early in the pandemic, Spring of 2020 the the feds had a significant number of medical personnel, from military and other sources that they dispatched to New York, LA and possibly New Orleans (I can't remember).  They had ships in harbors for overflow COVID-19 patients and they had staff to handle the surges. The surges hit different locations at different times, so they can be sent where needed and then move to the next location. This should have been expanded upon, with new hires at high rates of pay and extensive training in the past two years and instead it looks like it has been abandoned.  

While many hospitals are public and non-profit, you are correct that they operate like businesses.  It does not make business sense to hire staff for these surges when you don't know when or if they will ever be needed.  They probably weren't available anyway. The hospitals I am familiar with are short staffed now. 

As it always does, it comes down to money. Seems like the guys with the printing presses are in better position to throw it around than companies looking at their bottom line. The question I have at this point is money really the answer to the current hospital situation? Is staffing really the problem? Or is poor management and lack of crisis preparation by hospital CEOs the problem?

In March 2020, Chicago spent $81 million to turn McCormick place into a field hospital and staff it in five days. There were others all around the country built at a cost of $660 million. All ready to take on the wave of patients feared to over run the hospitals. The patients never came. McCormick place only took on something like 37 patients, that's like 2 million a patient. 

But, they were ready and prepared in record time. There probably isn't any political will to do that again, but certainly IF staffing and capacity are the issues now it can be done, as it had been done before. The world has known about Omicron and it's potential for 2 months. Seems like there was time to prepare but just no will to do it from the government or the hospital systems. Maybe it just is what it is and medical professionals have to slog through this the best they can and the public just has to take a hit on the quality of care. That kind of seems like where we are at.

Can the Army be called in to staff corporate hospitals? If so, that might help staffing problems.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think @IvanKaramazov would cop to it, as well but he does consistently qualify the statement.

Obviously covid-19 still exists, and it's obviously still causing problems.  

Compared to what things were like in 2020, that part of the pandemic is over and has been over since you got vaccinated.  I think it's good that vaccinated people don't need to worry about serious illness from this.  That is a win.  I don't feel guilty for being happy about it.

Edit: And regardless, if you want to encourage people to get vaccinated, I'm positive that getting angry at vaccinated people for going about their business isn't the best way to do it.

 

[Desert_Power]

Early in the pandemic, Spring of 2020 the the feds had a significant number of medical personnel, from military and other sources that they dispatched to New York, LA and possibly New Orleans (I can't remember).  They had ships in harbors for overflow COVID-19 patients and they had staff to handle the surges. The surges hit different locations at different times, so they can be sent where needed and then move to the next location.

I went looking into the current state of these ships and found this interesting story.

I seem to recall these ships never ended up treating as many people as projected during the initial spikes. Does seem like something we should be looking into for the Northeast right now.

 

[Courtjester]

We had 900+ new cases and 21 people died yesterday in my county. 

Sending my 17 year old daughter back to school this morning to a District that decided at this point (of all times) to discontinue their mask mandate.

Of course, this is the same place that, when they would run low on teachers and subs, they just take the affected classes and put them all in the library. So you will have three or four different classes all packed together with either the librarian or one teacher supervising--which basically just means keep the volume down on your Tik Toks. 

 

[ghostguy123]

I do not. And I shouldn't have said "most". But, a not insignificant number of these employees that make up those who remain unvaccinated are people like plant operations, janitorial and environmental services, secretarial and administrative positions, etc. 

Mostly trying to point out that when they say 700 of 70000 were let go, that doesn't mean all 700 are nurses or therapists or doctors that are doing direct patient care. 

Just curious, but who do you think has to pick up the slack for the loss of those employees?  Just yesterday I had to play secretary and housekeeping while maintaining my already overloaded assignment.  

 

[beer 30]

In same situation here as many.  Wife and I are positive, and kids are nearly certainly positive but tested negative on binax.  Can not get a clear plan from the school.  We will get them a pcr tomorrow and see where it goes. 

Been the biggest nothing burger ever, if there wasn't some epidemic we would have just gone about our lives. I regret even telling the school now, should have just sent them.

Wife is a teacher and due to sub shortage they are going to arrange for her to teach via zoom or whatever.  Her throat is sore and she can't talk for a full class so it's going to be a mess.  Other than that she's 100%.

Honestly, just declare this thing over and let anyone that feels good go and be done with it.  That seems to be what the CDC is trying to say, but it's not getting thru.  

I don't see anyone saying that "it's over".

Then you're not paying attention. culdeaus is good for a "it's over" post about once a quarter.

 

[Dragons]

Great post from YLE last night:

There is good news

 

[El Floppo]

We got an email from the principal today about numerous cases/close contacts stemming from Monday.  Typically the emails from him regarding COVID has said "a student has tested positive" but in this case it is very clearly several students. 

My kids' teachers are also still out this week.

In late Nov/early Dec, we averaged around 1 email per week, always with a single case. By mid Dec it was up to 2-3 per week, still always a single case. By late Dec we were getting them almost every day and it was never for a single case (I think the high was 14?). The last one they sent said that they can't keep up with the contact tracing, and that if you hear that your child may have had a close contact, please assume it's correct and follow the guidelines.

yeah- we were getting one here or there through the fall from our public elementary school here in NYC- by Dec it started ramping up with almost daily "somebody in the school has it" emails.

principal sent out an email yesterday- "I normally send individual emails per case, but we currently have 32 students and staff testing positive, so consider this a blanket email for all of them..."

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Then you're not paying attention. culdeaus is good for a "it's over" post about once a quarter.

You're right I'm not. But so far I've received two culdeas' and one asterisked IvanK.

 

[gianmarco]

You're right I'm not. But so far I've received two culdeas' and one asterisked IvanK.

You can probably add those thinking we have "hypochondriacs" to the list.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

You can probably add those thinking we have "hypochondriacs" to the list.

That didn't quite come across like I intended but it's too late now. And I did learn things from the ensuing discussion. 

 

[jobarules]

Great post from YLE last night:

There is good news

But vaccines are doing their primary job: keeping people out of the hospital.

More revisionist history

That vax vs unvax graph is pretty overwhelming evidence though. I have no clue what unvaxxed people are thinking.

 

[gianmarco]

That didn't quite come across like I intended but it's too late now. And I did learn things from the ensuing discussion. 

Thank you. 

 

[Doug B]

... getting angry at vaccinated people for going about their business ...

In a similar way to some people aren't seeing "It's over!" anywhere ... I'm not quite seeing "We're angry at vaccinated people going about their business!" either. Though I think I know what you mean -- the devil, as always, is in the details. And in the interpretations. And in the things left unsaid.

 

[ghostguy123]

School cancelled this week here.  Supposedly to start back monday.  Not confident that happens 

 

[beer 30]

I have no clue what unvaxxed people are thinking.

Oh I think you do.

We have a company wide COVID call today, be interested to hear what they have to say. We had a leadership meeting scheduled for later this month that they just moved out to April.

 

[El Floppo]

meanwhile at chez Floppo covid ward...

Floppinha is back in school.

Floppinho is required to continue quarantine, but has tested negative and other than a single rough night last week with a low fever followed by the positive test, was totally fine.

after testing positive the same time as Floppinho on Friday, I only had a low grade fever for a day, but have felt exhausted since then (slightly better the last day).

Worse for me- I have cough-variant asthma, which gets triggered with every cold or allergy (post-nasal drip produces a never ending, worsening cough). I have a daily corticosteroid inhaler that helps prevent it and has helped prevent it from materializing for a while, as well as another inhaler to help minimize the cough when it gets bad. But unlike always, neither seem to be doing much vs this.

I haven't retested, but am pretty sure I'm clear... we did book the Disney job and are going to Orlando on Friday. I'll retest today and tomorrow if needed... but either way, I'm going to be drawing a lot of nasty looks with my terrible sounding but non-contagious cough.

 

[Dragons]

meanwhile at chez Floppo covid ward...

Floppinha is back in school.

Floppinho is required to continue quarantine, but has tested negative and other than a single rough night last week with a low fever followed by the positive test, was totally fine.

after testing positive the same time as Floppinho on Friday, I only had a low grade fever for a day, but have felt exhausted since then (slightly better the last day).

Worse for me- I have cough-variant asthma, which gets triggered with every cold or allergy (post-nasal drip produces a never ending, worsening cough). I have a daily corticosteroid inhaler that helps prevent it and has helped prevent it from materializing for a while, as well as another inhaler to help minimize the cough when it gets bad. But unlike always, neither seem to be doing much vs this.

I haven't retested, but am pretty sure I'm clear... we did book the Disney job and are going to Orlando on Friday. I'll retest today and tomorrow if needed... but either way, I'm going to be drawing a lot of nasty looks with my terrible sounding but non-contagious cough.

Tape your antigen test to your coat/shirt.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

In a similar way to some people aren't seeing "It's over!" anywhere ... I'm not quite seeing "We're angry at vaccinated people going about their business!" either. Though I think I know what you mean -- the devil, as always, is in the details. And in the interpretations. And in the things left unsaid.

Not directed at anyone in this thread, but what I'm seeing anecdotally in the general attitude around here (my region) is something like: "I got vaccinated. Why do I have to do anything else any more?"  Basically, IMHO, it's just grasping at the old information that was put out of, more or less, "vax then you can ditch the mask and basically go about life as normal." And that was essentially true for a bit, but situations change and with uncontrolled spread again virtually everywhere, it's no longer true. And people have a hard time adjusting. Or readjusting, I guess you might say. IDK, that's just what it seems like to me. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Tape your antigen test to your coat/shirt.

I was gonna suggest he hang it around his neck.    

GL, @El Floppo and crew!

 

[Dezbelief]

Purely anecdotal, has anyone else noticed it seems like females are catching Omicron easier than men? There's been a few cases in my family and friends where one female in a household tested positive but nobody else did. The doctor in one case assumed the female had Omicron, but there was no sequencing. 

Delta already burned through here and cases had bottomed out. 

 

[jobarules]

Oh I think you do.

We have a company wide COVID call today, be interested to hear what they have to say. We had a leadership meeting scheduled for later this month that they just moved out to April.

huh?

 

[jamny]

Lack of information is causing a lot of confusion. Here in Idaho, hospitals are filling up and it's all Delta from the holiday surge but all you hear about is omicron and how it is mild. We aren't past delta yet. I know there are reports of 95% being omicron but I'm not buying it.

 

[ZADO]

My GF and i just moved to Florida last month ,her 16 yo daughter and 11 yo son start school on Jan 6th. My GF said while she was at the high school registering her daughter she overheard the woman in the office talking to a parent on the phone . Basically the woman was told by the parent that everyone in their home has covid and the woman in the office said ''as long as your son doesnt have symptoms he can come to school'' ,After she hung up she muttered ''i dont even care anymore '' 

oh boy

 

[humpback]

I agree.

How does wagging our collective finger at vaccinated and boosted people for living their lives normally help accomplish that goal?

Generally speaking, the vaccinated and boosted cohort belongs in the "helpful" category, no question. However, only ~1/3rd of the population falls into that cohort, and our actions do have consequences even if they're less damaging. We can still catch and spread this, and while the vast majority (but not all) of us won't get very sick, most of the people around us aren't as protected. When we go around "living normally", it negatively impacts everyone, including the vaxxed and boosted.

And it's not just sickness. My vaxxed/boosted life is being disrupted in schools, work, travel, sports, entertainment- pretty much everywhere you turn. My vaxxed/boosted dad just had his back surgery called off, so now he has to deal with excruciating pain for who knows how much longer. My vaxxed (waiting to be eligible to be boosted) daughters have had all extra curricular activities halted. Christmas family plans cancelled with elderly and immunocompromised grandparents. Plenty of other examples as well, and many have had much worse impacts, but you get the point. A lot of these "inconveniences" are due to high levels of spread, and yes, even vaxxed/boosted contribute some to that, especially when living like "normal".

The part I can't figure out is why the need to be so outspoken about it? If you want to live "normally" or think "it's just a cold" you do you, but do really think repeating it in here is helping? If you aren't worried about yourself from a micro level, great, but your actions, and more importantly your words, impact the macro level as well.