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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Big League Chew
- Start date
CurlyNight
Footballguy
I need to see the movie Contagion.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/14/contagion-movie-advisors-anticipated-pandemic.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/14/contagion-movie-advisors-anticipated-pandemic.html
The Commish
Footballguy
One of the news shows like 60 minutes or CBS Sunday Morning had an interview with this movie's creators a couple weeks back and it was pretty interesting.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm in NJ, so it would be a surprise if I didn't know anyone. We've lost one my of closest friends' father in law and about 3 or 4 family members of acquaintances we have. In my direct family, though, no one....yet.
The Commish
Footballguy
Got ours today too...ours is going to local groups and the lady that helps with periodic cleanings of the house.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Me: Take the politics to the political forum.No kidding.shader said:What a back-door way to insert his own politics.
Shader: Just big part of the story.
Me: No, it's cheap shots at Trump.
Shader: You just went political!
Krista: lolz !
All I'm saying is there's an entire forum dedicated to politics. Take it there. It's not a "big part" of the story. It's not a "natural part" of the conversation. It's simply a lack of self control.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
In my conversations about coronavirus outside of this forum, probably more than half of them touch on politics in some way. I understand the reasons why we need to segregate political talk here and I think it’s a good thing. But I have to constantly force myself NOT to mention politics in this thread. It’s absolutely integral to the story of the virus.
The Commish
Footballguy
Definitely a hard habit to break especially when the decisions being made that impact us are guided by politics and not what's right for the country at large. Not perfect, but working at it. It's been about 8-9 days and I am having less and less desire to go back to the PSF.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
You really think criticizing someone who is directly responsible for not stopping thousands of preventable deaths is taking cheap shots? Please go away.
Buddy Ball 2K3
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/
Not a WaPo subscriber so can't read the article but read a summary:
an FYI: I learned that anyone with a .mil or .gov can get a free subscription to the Washington Post. They apparently used to include .edu, but now they only get a discounted price, not a freebie subscription
Not a WaPo subscriber so can't read the article but read a summary:
It's an opinion piece, but that's a little different spin on "it came from a lab" for sure, and definitely makes you think.
an FYI: I learned that anyone with a .mil or .gov can get a free subscription to the Washington Post. They apparently used to include .edu, but now they only get a discounted price, not a freebie subscription
Possum
Footballguy
it's absolutely stupid to turn coronavirus into yet another political football in the middle of the crisis when we should all be working together to beat it, but the hypocrisy of the two major parties in this country knows no bounds.
there's a specific forum to post your criticism, though, and it's not this one. Norville is absolutely right about what he's saying.
need2know
Footballguy
bentley
Footballguy
I love that there are "diplomatic cables" still in this world.
This seems like a somewhat plausible theory, but I can't imagine we'll ever get the real story if it's true.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I read this yesterday. I think in a lot of peoples' minds "It is a bioweapon" and "It came from a lab" get conflated when those are really two completely different things. The first statement is kind of silly and (I think) has been firmly debunked by people who have studied the virus.
The second one, though, is pretty logical and seems like a realistic possibility. The Wuhan Institute of Virology fairly recently became China's first BSL-4 lab. We know that the lab was not really being operated safely. We know they were studying dangerous bat coronaviruses. Lo and behold, a dangerous bat coronavirus turns up in the streets of Wuhan. I mean, sure, maybe it really originated from a wet market, but that's quite a coincidence.
That scenario would also explain why China is suppressing research on covid's origins. If this pandemic was caused by incompetence on the part of a lab worker, and that foreign diplomats had warned about this exact scenario two years ago, I don't know what the consequences for the Chinese government would be but I'm sure they wouldn't be good.
Not to speak for NB but I'm going to guess he's thinking what he said:
That's good advice for this thread. We have an entire forum for that. Take the political talk to that forum please.
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DaVinci
FairTaxguy
Consequences from whom? Aside from being fodder for some political stump speeches, nobody has the power or inclination to do anything of consequence against the Chinese government.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
If you look at h1n1 you will see the number was revised quite often.
Eta: even seasonal flu gets updated a lot.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Yep, agreed.
Prior to reading about this, my personal definition of "it came from a lab" meant that it was man-made (well, partly because that's what the conspiracy people were pushing hard, and still are), which has been debunked by science. But now, I understand that it could also mean "it originated in a lab, in a natural way" so the context of the phrasing absolutely matters. So if it comes out (and we may never know for sure) that this is true, just watch the conspiracybros say "SEE, WE TOLD YOU IT CAME FROM A LAB HAHAHA"
And I definitely agree with the bolded.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Projecting the transmission dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 through the postpandemic period
Some pretty interesting, and detailed, analysis of ongoing measures vs transmission
tl;dr:
Some pretty interesting, and detailed, analysis of ongoing measures vs transmission
tl;dr:
the moops
Footballguy
Guessing mine is in myu account, although my local credit union's website seems to be crashed
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
This made me think... yesterday it took most of the day for me to be able to log in to my bank to pay a few bills. I didn't think about it at the time, but after seeing your post, I'm now wondering if it's due to a sudden inundation of the banking data systems with the stimulus payments going out. Would make sense I guess, with everything basically going out at the same time.
Clown Car
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes said:
You are doing a bang-up job helping keep the politics out of here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
So last week or so my employer sent a message to all indicating that they were considering opening on May 1. Knowing these folks there are connections or tentacles to Baton Rouge and top shelf inside baseball. Sure enough yesterday a new message said they’ll likely open May 4, the first Monday of the month.
I personally feel I have some latitude in this, that is continuing to stay home to work vs being on site. And I feel that as much as I think Gov. Edwards has done a great job I really don’t care what he or the mayor say, to me it’s a question of the risk per medical officials at the NIH, FDA, CDC & LA DOH. Just as an example, if my workplace (office building) has social distancing in place then I feel that implicitly suggests a continuing health risk, and if that’s the case I’m safer continuing at home for a while.
Anyone else getting such hints and missives from employers and if so how are you approaching it? TIA.
I personally feel I have some latitude in this, that is continuing to stay home to work vs being on site. And I feel that as much as I think Gov. Edwards has done a great job I really don’t care what he or the mayor say, to me it’s a question of the risk per medical officials at the NIH, FDA, CDC & LA DOH. Just as an example, if my workplace (office building) has social distancing in place then I feel that implicitly suggests a continuing health risk, and if that’s the case I’m safer continuing at home for a while.
Anyone else getting such hints and missives from employers and if so how are you approaching it? TIA.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I'd love to have a serious conversation about the political decisions related to the pandemic. It would be great to examine things and see what was a good decision, what was a bad decision, what was perhaps a good decision that could have been presented better, etc. And not just decisions made by the President. And not just the U.S. - this is a global pandemic. I think it's an important part of improving preparedness. Hopefully we're never this unprepared for a pandemic again. The next one could very well be more contagious or more deadly or both.
But some people don't want that conversation - they just want to bash Trump. And there's an entire forum for that.
beer 30
Footballguy
I've been reading about this quite a bit in the last few weeks. There was a video posted in this thread last week that lead to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU
It's conspiracy theory stuff but it's also plausible in conjunction with the article you referenced. I don't know if that's exactly how it happened and we'll never know but it seems more plausible to me than a grandma catching it from shrimp at a wet market.
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Doug B
Footballguy
That Washington Post article outlines how the "wet market" theory is pretty much in shreds at this point. Short version: the early set of COVID-19 patients in Wuhan are now known to have had no contact with the wet market originally in question - plus the wet market didn't sell bats.
A "bat in a lab" can initiate animal-to-human virus transmission just like a "bat in the forest" can. It's a lot like catching something by mishandling an infected lab rat (getting bitten, mishandling bodily fluids, etc.).
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
My bank was slow today online as well...and when I finally got in, other functions were not available today (like transfers and bill pay). Had a couple "technical difficulty" messages when I first tried to log in this morning.
the moops
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
psf please. I want to respond for sure but you are literally asking for a political discussion. That cannot happen here. It just can't. It's impossible. Once you mention the T word, someone will praise/blame him, and then someone else with reply, and we go down that ugly rabbit hole.
If you like, you could even start your own thread in the PSF with this discussion in mind. But can we please not do it here?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
bentley
Footballguy
We're fairly cautious, but I expect that we will have some kind of staged return to work, where those that can best work from home will be encouraged to do so for as long as possible.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Here's the article for any so interested.
I just want to point some things out:
- Tracing to patient 0 in Wuhan is really important (are we up to November still or have they gotten to earlier?), but another theory I heard some time ago - on NPR, in an interview with someone whom I think was an epidemiologist - was that Wuhan has a tradition of festivals and social events or social day tripping (I suppose like in SELA where locals or tourists may go to the swamp or marsh) surrounding these caves, and it had been speculated (when I was hearing this in roughly Feb.-Mar.) that transmission may have happened that way. Apparently collecting bats and even cooking them is a "thing" as part of this.
- Put me first in saying that the only thing worse than talking about politics in here is talking about talking/not talking about politics in here. However I will point out this is a State Department leak (read below) in a very, very politicized White House environment, and in fact the Secretary of State just magically appeared on the Tucker Carlson show last night to discuss this story the very evening of the day it appeared. I don't want to talk about that, I'd just consider the source and possible motivation in looking at this information. And again I don't want to talk about that. IMO stick to scientific and medical literature and opinion and that should be the end of that.
State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses
Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.
In January 2018, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing took the unusual step of repeatedly sending U.S. science diplomats to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which had in 2015 become China’s first laboratory to achieve the highest level of international bioresearch safety (known as BSL-4). WIV issued a news release in English about the last of these visits, which occurred on March 27, 2018. The U.S. delegation was led by Jamison Fouss, the consul general in Wuhan, and Rick Switzer, the embassy’s counselor of environment, science, technology and health. Last week, WIV erased that statement from its website, though it remains archived on the Internet.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.
“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)
The Chinese researchers at WIV were receiving assistance from the Galveston National Laboratory at the University of Texas Medical Branch and other U.S. organizations, but the Chinese requested additional help. The cables argued that the United States should give the Wuhan lab further support, mainly because its research on bat coronaviruses was important but also dangerous.
As the cable noted, the U.S. visitors met with Shi Zhengli, the head of the research project, who had been publishing studies related to bat coronaviruses for many years. In November 2017, just before the U.S. officials’ visit, Shi’s team had published research showing that horseshoe bats they had collected from a cave in Yunnan province were very likely from the same bat population that spawned the SARS coronavirus in 2003.
“Most importantly,” the cable states, “the researchers also showed that various SARS-like coronaviruses can interact with ACE2, the human receptor identified for SARS-coronavirus. This finding strongly suggests that SARS-like coronaviruses from bats can be transmitted to humans to cause SARS-like diseases. From a public health perspective, this makes the continued surveillance of SARS-like coronaviruses in bats and study of the animal-human interface critical to future emerging coronavirus outbreak prediction and prevention.”
The research was designed to prevent the next SARS-like pandemic by anticipating how it might emerge. But even in 2015, other scientists questioned whether Shi’s team was taking unnecessary risks. In October 2014, the U.S. government had imposed a moratorium on funding of any research that makes a virus more deadly or contagious, known as “gain-of-function” experiments.
As many have pointed out, there is no evidence that the virus now plaguing the world was engineered; scientists largely agree it came from animals. But that is not the same as saying it didn’t come from the lab, which spent years testing bat coronaviruses in animals, said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California at Berkeley.
“The cable tells us that there have long been concerns about the possibility of the threat to public health that came from this lab’s research, if it was not being adequately conducted and protected,” he said.
There are similar concerns about the nearby Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab, which operates at biosecurity level 2, a level significantly less secure than the level-4 standard claimed by the Wuhan Insititute of Virology lab, Xiao said. That’s important because the Chinese government still refuses to answer basic questions about the origin of the novel coronavirus while suppressing any attempts to examine whether either lab was involved.
Sources familiar with the cables said they were meant to sound an alarm about the grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses. The embassy officials were calling for more U.S. attention to this lab and more support for it, to help it fix its problems.
“The cable was a warning shot,” one U.S. official said. “They were begging people to pay attention to what was going on.”
No extra assistance to the labs was provided by the U.S. government in response to these cables. The cables began to circulate again inside the administration over the past two months as officials debated whether the lab could be the origin of the pandemic and what the implications would be for the U.S. pandemic response and relations with China.
Inside the Trump administration, many national security officials have long suspected either the WIV or the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab was the source of the novel coronavirus outbreak. According to the New York Times, the intelligence community has provided no evidence to confirm this. But one senior administration official told me that the cables provide one more piece of evidence to support the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab accident in Wuhan.
“The idea that it was just a totally natural occurrence is circumstantial. The evidence it leaked from the lab is circumstantial. Right now, the ledger on the side of it leaking from the lab is packed with bullet points and there’s almost nothing on the other side,” the official said.
As my colleague David Ignatius noted, the Chinese government’s original story — that the virus emerged from a seafood market in Wuhan — is shaky. Research by Chinese experts published in the Lancet in January showed the first known patient, identified on Dec. 1, had no connection to the market, nor did more than one-third of the cases in the first large cluster. Also, the market didn’t sell bats.
Shi and other WIV researchers have categorically denied this lab was the origin for the novel coronavirus. On Feb. 3, her team was the first to publicly report the virus known as 2019-nCoV was a bat-derived coronavirus.
The Chinese government, meanwhile, has put a total lockdown on information related to the virus origins. Beijing has yet to provide U.S. experts with samples of the novel coronavirus collected from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab that published the novel coronavirus genome on Jan. 11 was quickly shut down by authorities for “rectification.” Several of the doctors and journalists who reported on the spread early on have disappeared.
On Feb. 14, Chinese President Xi Jinping called for a new biosecurity law to be accelerated. On Wednesday, CNN reported the Chinese government has placed severe restrictions requiring approval before any research institution publishes anything on the origin of the novel coronavirus.
The origin story is not just about blame. It’s crucial to understanding how the novel coronavirus pandemic started because that informs how to prevent the next one. The Chinese government must be transparent and answer the questions about the Wuhan labs because they are vital to our scientific understanding of the virus, said Xiao.
We don’t know whether the novel coronavirus originated in the Wuhan lab, but the cable pointed to the danger there and increases the impetus to find out, he said.
“I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s a legitimate question that needs to be investigated and answered,” he said. “To understand exactly how this originated is critical knowledge for preventing this from happening in the future.”
Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.
In January 2018, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing took the unusual step of repeatedly sending U.S. science diplomats to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which had in 2015 become China’s first laboratory to achieve the highest level of international bioresearch safety (known as BSL-4). WIV issued a news release in English about the last of these visits, which occurred on March 27, 2018. The U.S. delegation was led by Jamison Fouss, the consul general in Wuhan, and Rick Switzer, the embassy’s counselor of environment, science, technology and health. Last week, WIV erased that statement from its website, though it remains archived on the Internet.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.
“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)
The Chinese researchers at WIV were receiving assistance from the Galveston National Laboratory at the University of Texas Medical Branch and other U.S. organizations, but the Chinese requested additional help. The cables argued that the United States should give the Wuhan lab further support, mainly because its research on bat coronaviruses was important but also dangerous.
As the cable noted, the U.S. visitors met with Shi Zhengli, the head of the research project, who had been publishing studies related to bat coronaviruses for many years. In November 2017, just before the U.S. officials’ visit, Shi’s team had published research showing that horseshoe bats they had collected from a cave in Yunnan province were very likely from the same bat population that spawned the SARS coronavirus in 2003.
“Most importantly,” the cable states, “the researchers also showed that various SARS-like coronaviruses can interact with ACE2, the human receptor identified for SARS-coronavirus. This finding strongly suggests that SARS-like coronaviruses from bats can be transmitted to humans to cause SARS-like diseases. From a public health perspective, this makes the continued surveillance of SARS-like coronaviruses in bats and study of the animal-human interface critical to future emerging coronavirus outbreak prediction and prevention.”
The research was designed to prevent the next SARS-like pandemic by anticipating how it might emerge. But even in 2015, other scientists questioned whether Shi’s team was taking unnecessary risks. In October 2014, the U.S. government had imposed a moratorium on funding of any research that makes a virus more deadly or contagious, known as “gain-of-function” experiments.
As many have pointed out, there is no evidence that the virus now plaguing the world was engineered; scientists largely agree it came from animals. But that is not the same as saying it didn’t come from the lab, which spent years testing bat coronaviruses in animals, said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California at Berkeley.
“The cable tells us that there have long been concerns about the possibility of the threat to public health that came from this lab’s research, if it was not being adequately conducted and protected,” he said.
There are similar concerns about the nearby Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab, which operates at biosecurity level 2, a level significantly less secure than the level-4 standard claimed by the Wuhan Insititute of Virology lab, Xiao said. That’s important because the Chinese government still refuses to answer basic questions about the origin of the novel coronavirus while suppressing any attempts to examine whether either lab was involved.
Sources familiar with the cables said they were meant to sound an alarm about the grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses. The embassy officials were calling for more U.S. attention to this lab and more support for it, to help it fix its problems.
“The cable was a warning shot,” one U.S. official said. “They were begging people to pay attention to what was going on.”
No extra assistance to the labs was provided by the U.S. government in response to these cables. The cables began to circulate again inside the administration over the past two months as officials debated whether the lab could be the origin of the pandemic and what the implications would be for the U.S. pandemic response and relations with China.
Inside the Trump administration, many national security officials have long suspected either the WIV or the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab was the source of the novel coronavirus outbreak. According to the New York Times, the intelligence community has provided no evidence to confirm this. But one senior administration official told me that the cables provide one more piece of evidence to support the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab accident in Wuhan.
“The idea that it was just a totally natural occurrence is circumstantial. The evidence it leaked from the lab is circumstantial. Right now, the ledger on the side of it leaking from the lab is packed with bullet points and there’s almost nothing on the other side,” the official said.
As my colleague David Ignatius noted, the Chinese government’s original story — that the virus emerged from a seafood market in Wuhan — is shaky. Research by Chinese experts published in the Lancet in January showed the first known patient, identified on Dec. 1, had no connection to the market, nor did more than one-third of the cases in the first large cluster. Also, the market didn’t sell bats.
Shi and other WIV researchers have categorically denied this lab was the origin for the novel coronavirus. On Feb. 3, her team was the first to publicly report the virus known as 2019-nCoV was a bat-derived coronavirus.
The Chinese government, meanwhile, has put a total lockdown on information related to the virus origins. Beijing has yet to provide U.S. experts with samples of the novel coronavirus collected from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab that published the novel coronavirus genome on Jan. 11 was quickly shut down by authorities for “rectification.” Several of the doctors and journalists who reported on the spread early on have disappeared.
On Feb. 14, Chinese President Xi Jinping called for a new biosecurity law to be accelerated. On Wednesday, CNN reported the Chinese government has placed severe restrictions requiring approval before any research institution publishes anything on the origin of the novel coronavirus.
The origin story is not just about blame. It’s crucial to understanding how the novel coronavirus pandemic started because that informs how to prevent the next one. The Chinese government must be transparent and answer the questions about the Wuhan labs because they are vital to our scientific understanding of the virus, said Xiao.
We don’t know whether the novel coronavirus originated in the Wuhan lab, but the cable pointed to the danger there and increases the impetus to find out, he said.
“I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s a legitimate question that needs to be investigated and answered,” he said. “To understand exactly how this originated is critical knowledge for preventing this from happening in the future.”
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Papier mache? I see some newsprint sticking out of the top.
Does the mask flex a good bit, or is it more or less rigid (assuming I'm right about the construction)?
The Commish
Footballguy
If your bank is doing that in the middle of the day, they're doing it wrong
Most banks will accept the deposit from the depositing entity and show it as "pending" to you. This means they have the funds and they acknowledge they have the funds, but they haven't processed it and updated the 50 different tables they need to just yet. A more likely scenarios is that people are logging in (basically hitting the F5 button for browser refresh) and it's slowing everything else down
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Its a cereal box. The white on the top is the N95 mask sticking out a bit. It attaches to the valve via velcro and then the straps loop through a piece of wire.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Yeah, that's how mine does deposits as well. But I was just talking about trying to LOG IN to the interface at all. it kept timing out, then once I would finally get in, all of the page segments wouldn't load, etc. That happened for the better part of yesterday, and actually the evening before now that I think about it. But you're right, it probably was just from heavy traffic on all the banking servers of people trying to check their accounts all at once.If your bank is doing that in the middle of the day, they're doing it wrong
A more likely scenarios is that people are logging in (basically hitting the F5 button for browser refresh) and it's slowing everything else down
