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*****OFFICIAL FORMULA ONE GRAND PRIX THREAD***** (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter cosjobs
- Start date
FIA clearly wanting Verstappen to win the championship, and will do any thing they can to help.
I had not even seen this:"However, Hamilton is currently under investigation after being summoned to the stewards for an alleged breach of safety belt rules."
"However, Hamilton is currently under investigation after being summoned to the stewards for an alleged breach of safety belt rules."
After the race, Hamilton was fined 25,000 euros - with 20,000 suspended until the end of the 2022 season - in relation to undoing his safety belt on the warm-down lap.
Eephus
Footballguy
Legendary drive by Lewis today. If Mercedes can maintain their straight line speed advantage in the Middle East, both titles are up in the air.
Great result for Ferrari as well. Their recovery from 6th to 3rd in the constructors' championship has been impressive even though 3rd should really be their floor considering their resources.
Great result for Ferrari as well. Their recovery from 6th to 3rd in the constructors' championship has been impressive even though 3rd should really be their floor considering their resources.
Apparently, FIA could still investigate Verstappen for the Lap 48 incident (when he ran wide in the corner, forcing Hamilton off the track also).
Masi claims the stewards only had access to the video that was being broadcast - which conveniently cut away from the driver's view - at the time of the incident. They have requested that video post-race, and it could lead to an investigation. I think the only issue will be whether Verstappen opened up the steering, or the car simply slid wide due to the late breaking.
I expect any such "investigation" will be inconclusive, and it sets up a tense final three races.
Masi claims the stewards only had access to the video that was being broadcast - which conveniently cut away from the driver's view - at the time of the incident. They have requested that video post-race, and it could lead to an investigation. I think the only issue will be whether Verstappen opened up the steering, or the car simply slid wide due to the late breaking.
I expect any such "investigation" will be inconclusive, and it sets up a tense final three races.
Eephus
Footballguy
A retroactive five second penalty would drop him to third behind Bottas.
A grid drop in Qatar would cause Horner and Marko to lose their collective rags.
One of the funnier clips from the weekend - post-sprint race, Vettel telling his engineer he was going to touch Hamilton's rear wing.
Engineer: "Don't you dare! Its very expensive!"
Vettel: "I'm joking, I'll try the front wing, maybe its 25 grand..."
Obviously tensions are high between Red Bull and Mercedes, Verstappen and Hamilton, Horner and Wolff. Mercedes haven't been 2nd best in a long time, and obviously Red Bull have been fighting to get back on top for just as long. Cars and drivers are pretty evenly matched, and I think we are seeing the pressure affecting the teams.
Next year seems like a lot of unknowns for both teams, so this could be Red Bull's best opportunity. The aerodynamic changes by FIA have helped their chassis design, at the expense of Mercedes, and the Honda engines (along with hiring several of Mercedes top engine staff) have given Red Bull the better car for most of the season.
Hopefully we see clean racing from here on out - but, I suspect there is still at least one more incident between Hamilton and Verstappen.
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Eephus
Footballguy
I don't think there's been a close WDC battle between drivers from different teams since Schumacher at Ferrari was up against McLaren and a young Raikonnen.
I think Button's championship ended up pretty tight but Brawn's double diffuser gave JB a big margin early in the season so it never seemed that close.
I think Button's championship ended up pretty tight but Brawn's double diffuser gave JB a big margin early in the season so it never seemed that close.
Some off-the-track news, not involving Red Bull or Mercedes:
1. Alfa Romeo has signed Guanyu Zhou, the first Chinese driver in F1 to partner Valteri Bottas next season. That leaves Giovinazzi without out a ride next season.
Why have Alfa signed Zhou?
Zhou was part of the Ferrari driver academy from 2014-18, and moved to join Renault's young driver stable in 2019. He has been test driver for the French company's F1 team for the past two years.
He will take with him to Alfa Romeo a sizeable financial package said to be worth many millions of pounds.
Team principal Frederic Vasseur admitted in an exclusive interview with BBC Sport that this was a factor in signing Zhou, saying: "The financial side can't be hidden."
But he said that Zhou's talent had also been a key consideration.
Vasseur said the extra income Zhou brings to Alfa Romeo would mean that the team would be able to operate at F1's cost cap next season - their budget is "massively" under the $145m (£114m) figure this year, he said.
"In the end, our sponsors also want to be happy and develop their commitment to the future, and the financial side can't be hidden," Vasseur said.
"The first Chinese driver in F1 - it's mega news for us, for the company, for our sponsors and also for F1 in general.
"A team has to become sustainable at one stage. It is not just about the Chinese sponsors, it is about the exposure we will give to our current partners.
"F1 today is a bit tough. If you are not in the top two plus Ferrari, the exposure is very low and this is probably the best way we will have to move up the classification of exposure."
2. Lots of rumors yesterday that McLaren were being sold to Audi (Volkswagen). McLaren had to issue a denial, and I suspect the rumors were off the mark a little. Volkswagen via both Porche and Audi have been involved in discussions around the next generation engines for F1, and my guess is McLaren will partner with Audi as an engine supplier, and possible investor, without selling the entire team.
1. Alfa Romeo has signed Guanyu Zhou, the first Chinese driver in F1 to partner Valteri Bottas next season. That leaves Giovinazzi without out a ride next season.
Why have Alfa signed Zhou?
Zhou was part of the Ferrari driver academy from 2014-18, and moved to join Renault's young driver stable in 2019. He has been test driver for the French company's F1 team for the past two years.
He will take with him to Alfa Romeo a sizeable financial package said to be worth many millions of pounds.
Team principal Frederic Vasseur admitted in an exclusive interview with BBC Sport that this was a factor in signing Zhou, saying: "The financial side can't be hidden."
But he said that Zhou's talent had also been a key consideration.
Vasseur said the extra income Zhou brings to Alfa Romeo would mean that the team would be able to operate at F1's cost cap next season - their budget is "massively" under the $145m (£114m) figure this year, he said.
"In the end, our sponsors also want to be happy and develop their commitment to the future, and the financial side can't be hidden," Vasseur said.
"The first Chinese driver in F1 - it's mega news for us, for the company, for our sponsors and also for F1 in general.
"A team has to become sustainable at one stage. It is not just about the Chinese sponsors, it is about the exposure we will give to our current partners.
"F1 today is a bit tough. If you are not in the top two plus Ferrari, the exposure is very low and this is probably the best way we will have to move up the classification of exposure."
2. Lots of rumors yesterday that McLaren were being sold to Audi (Volkswagen). McLaren had to issue a denial, and I suspect the rumors were off the mark a little. Volkswagen via both Porche and Audi have been involved in discussions around the next generation engines for F1, and my guess is McLaren will partner with Audi as an engine supplier, and possible investor, without selling the entire team.
Eephus
Footballguy
Zhou has had decent results in the junior formulas. He's currently in second place in the Formula 2 championship but it's his third season in the series. I'd probably rank him ahead of Mazepin and Latifi in sheer talent (I still believe in Yuki) but it'll probably take Zhou time to get accustomed to the more powerful cars.
Bottas will be a strong teammate for Zhou. Bottas has always had good cars under him but he's certainly quick. Zhou will be hard pressed to stay close on Saturdays.
Bottas will be a strong teammate for Zhou. Bottas has always had good cars under him but he's certainly quick. Zhou will be hard pressed to stay close on Saturdays.
Eephus
Footballguy
I figured you would have some info on Zhou from the lower ranks.
The knock on GYZ is he's been always beaten by his teammates in F2 and F3. Zhou has had good results but he's driven for top teams in Prema and Uni-Virtuosi.
Current F2 points leader Oscar Piastri is the odd man out this silly season. He took the F3 title in his first season last year and has been the quickest guy in F2 this year. He's an Alpine Academy driver so there's no place to go at the next level except for test and simulator duties.
The F2 calendar and race weekend format are both screwed up this year so there are still six races to go. Maybe Zhou will do something special to win the championship and make everything work out.
Mercedes have requested a review of the incident based on new evidence not available at the time - video from both cars. Both teams have been summoned for a Thursday hearing to determine if an investigation should ensue.
I still think this is Mercedes planting the seed for the next time Verstappen forces Hamilton off the track, more than any expectation for a retroactive time penalty or future grid penalty.
Decision delayed until tomorrow:
Following the submission of fresh video evidence by Mercedes, the team had requested that the FIA look again at whether or not Verstappen broke the rules in his defence against Lewis Hamilton at last weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix.
The matter revolves around Verstappen's defensive driving at Turn 4 on lap 48, when the Red Bull driver crowded out Hamilton on the exit of the corner as he too ran wide.
Mercedes took action after a new onboard video of Verstappen's driving, which was unavailable to the stewards during the race, was released that showed the Dutchman not steering in to the corner as much as would normally be expected to.
Following a video hearing ahead of the Qatar Grand Prix, the FIA stewards spent several hours debating the matter and have now decided to adjourn for the evening.
A short statement from the FIA said: "Following today's hearing with representatives from Mercedes and Red Bull, the stewards are now considering the matter and will publish their decision tomorrow."
The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors bring "a significant and relevant new element' that was 'unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned".
The Brazilian Grand Prix stewards were reconvened to hear Mercedes' request for a "right of review".
They determined that the on-board camera footage did meet the tests required of it being "new", "unavailable at the time of the decision" and "relevant" but they said it was not "significant".
The ruling said: "There is nothing in the footage that fundamentally changes the facts. Nor even does this show anything that wasn't considered by the stewards at the time."
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said it was the "right decision".
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said the verdict was "completely expected" and that the team had succeeded in their aim of raising the matter as a point of discussion in the context of the intense title fight between the two drivers in the final three races of the season.
"It is more about the principle and the philosophy," Wolff said. "If it stays that way, it means overtaking from the outside is pretty much not possible any more because the inside controls the corner completely. You can see some of the drivers have expressed the same opinion.
"It is really important to understand what's on and what's not on because we don't want this championship to be decided by a controversial situation that ends up in the stewards' room. That's why now is the time to clarify the rules."
On Thursday, Ferrari's Charles Leclerc made the same point, saying: "If this is allowed then overtaking on the outside is going to be very difficult."
They determined that the on-board camera footage did meet the tests required of it being "new", "unavailable at the time of the decision" and "relevant" but they said it was not "significant".
The ruling said: "There is nothing in the footage that fundamentally changes the facts. Nor even does this show anything that wasn't considered by the stewards at the time."
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said it was the "right decision".
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said the verdict was "completely expected" and that the team had succeeded in their aim of raising the matter as a point of discussion in the context of the intense title fight between the two drivers in the final three races of the season.
"It is more about the principle and the philosophy," Wolff said. "If it stays that way, it means overtaking from the outside is pretty much not possible any more because the inside controls the corner completely. You can see some of the drivers have expressed the same opinion.
"It is really important to understand what's on and what's not on because we don't want this championship to be decided by a controversial situation that ends up in the stewards' room. That's why now is the time to clarify the rules."
On Thursday, Ferrari's Charles Leclerc made the same point, saying: "If this is allowed then overtaking on the outside is going to be very difficult."
Eephus
Footballguy
Current F1 cars create so much downforce that drivers are able negotiate slippery slopes like this at full throttle
I watched live and was surprised they did not slow down the final straight. Anouncers made it sound like track was clear with the car off the racing line.
Eephus
Footballguy
It was a more interesting race than I expected in spite of Lewis never being remotely challenged. Another new circuit next in Jeddah which is still under construction with two weeks to go.
It was impressive that both Alpines were able to make a soft/hard one-stopper work when both medium and hard tires failed. Their 25 points today gives them a gap over Alpha Tauri in the battle for 5th.
It was impressive that both Alpines were able to make a soft/hard one-stopper work when both medium and hard tires failed. Their 25 points today gives them a gap over Alpha Tauri in the battle for 5th.
Just speculating, based on a few different articles I have read in the past few weeks., but I think Mercedes have pulled out all the stops to give Hamilton a chance at the title.
Hamilton has used 5 combustion engines this season, introducing the 5th in Brazil a couple of weeks ago - and taking two grid penalties along the way (for the 4th and 5th engines). 4th engine just introduced in October.
There has been speculation that the Mercedes engines are seeing a steeper degradation in performance - compared to their rivals - with the additional mileage on the engines, which has created the need for newer engines to keep pace.
Red Bull have recently suggested some sort of illegal upgrade to the Mercedes engines - there is currently a lock on engine upgrades as part of the cost-savings measures. But, I think the answer is probably more basic. I think the Mercedes are finishing out the year on a more powerful mode, than they, or the other teams, used for most of the season. If you recall, FI mandated that all engines use the same mode from qualification through the race. That keeps teams, from using a more powerful mode for the short qualification session, and a more reliable mode for the longer races.
Hamilton is currently using two engines - 4 and 5. He used 5 in Brazil for a dominant weekend, but reverted back to engine 4 in Qatar, and still had a dominant performance. So, I think Mercedes traded off grid penalties in Turkey and Brazil in exchange for having multiple engines for the run-in, which allows them to sacrifice reliability for performance. Its obviously a little risky, if they are doing that - as an engine failure in the race would end any title hopes. But, the flip side is, without an engine boost, Mercedes were second best on the grid. Having the extra engines allows Mercedes to run the higher mode, knowing that each engine will have to perform for fewer miles than they typically expect.
Hamilton has used 5 combustion engines this season, introducing the 5th in Brazil a couple of weeks ago - and taking two grid penalties along the way (for the 4th and 5th engines). 4th engine just introduced in October.
There has been speculation that the Mercedes engines are seeing a steeper degradation in performance - compared to their rivals - with the additional mileage on the engines, which has created the need for newer engines to keep pace.
Red Bull have recently suggested some sort of illegal upgrade to the Mercedes engines - there is currently a lock on engine upgrades as part of the cost-savings measures. But, I think the answer is probably more basic. I think the Mercedes are finishing out the year on a more powerful mode, than they, or the other teams, used for most of the season. If you recall, FI mandated that all engines use the same mode from qualification through the race. That keeps teams, from using a more powerful mode for the short qualification session, and a more reliable mode for the longer races.
Hamilton is currently using two engines - 4 and 5. He used 5 in Brazil for a dominant weekend, but reverted back to engine 4 in Qatar, and still had a dominant performance. So, I think Mercedes traded off grid penalties in Turkey and Brazil in exchange for having multiple engines for the run-in, which allows them to sacrifice reliability for performance. Its obviously a little risky, if they are doing that - as an engine failure in the race would end any title hopes. But, the flip side is, without an engine boost, Mercedes were second best on the grid. Having the extra engines allows Mercedes to run the higher mode, knowing that each engine will have to perform for fewer miles than they typically expect.
Frank Williams has passed away. RIP
Sir Frank Williams, founder and former team principal of the Williams Racing Formula 1 team, has died aged 79.
He built the team named after him into one of the most successful in the sport.
During his time with Williams, the team won nine constructors' championships and seven drivers' titles, and dominated much of the 1980s and 1990s.
He and daughter Claire moved away from the sport in September 2020 after selling Williams to US investors.
In a statement, the Williams team said: "It is with great sadness that on behalf of the Williams family, the team can confirm the death of Sir Frank Williams CBE, founder and former team principal of Williams Racing, at the age of 79.
"After being admitted into hospital on Friday, Sir Frank passed away peacefully this morning surrounded by his family.
Sir Frank Williams, founder and former team principal of the Williams Racing Formula 1 team, has died aged 79.
He built the team named after him into one of the most successful in the sport.
During his time with Williams, the team won nine constructors' championships and seven drivers' titles, and dominated much of the 1980s and 1990s.
He and daughter Claire moved away from the sport in September 2020 after selling Williams to US investors.
In a statement, the Williams team said: "It is with great sadness that on behalf of the Williams family, the team can confirm the death of Sir Frank Williams CBE, founder and former team principal of Williams Racing, at the age of 79.
"After being admitted into hospital on Friday, Sir Frank passed away peacefully this morning surrounded by his family.
Eephus
Footballguy
Sir Frank was a legend. He did the full circuit from his beginnings as a garagista in the 70s to the pinnacle of the sport in the 80s and 90s and finally to the rear of the grid before selling the family business last year.
The team had some great drivers and revolutionary cars over the years. The active suspension beasts of the early 90s may have been the most technologically advanced race cars of all time.
When the Concorde Agreement changed the economics of the sport in the early 21st century, his peers either sold out or went under. Williams should have probably sold to BMW when the Bavarian marque was interested in running a factory team but Williams and Patrick Head were racers at heart. BMW bought Sauber instead but left the sport after the recession. Williams soldiered on with generally diminishing returns marked by the occasional success like Pastor Maldonado's one win and a 3rd place in the 2015 Constructors championship. It's tough to compete as a customer team nowadays.
The Williams documentary film from 2017 struggled to get inside the great man. Sir Frank was always a notoriously poor interview. The interviews with his wife and daughter revealed a lot more about him.
The team had some great drivers and revolutionary cars over the years. The active suspension beasts of the early 90s may have been the most technologically advanced race cars of all time.
When the Concorde Agreement changed the economics of the sport in the early 21st century, his peers either sold out or went under. Williams should have probably sold to BMW when the Bavarian marque was interested in running a factory team but Williams and Patrick Head were racers at heart. BMW bought Sauber instead but left the sport after the recession. Williams soldiered on with generally diminishing returns marked by the occasional success like Pastor Maldonado's one win and a 3rd place in the 2015 Constructors championship. It's tough to compete as a customer team nowadays.
The Williams documentary film from 2017 struggled to get inside the great man. Sir Frank was always a notoriously poor interview. The interviews with his wife and daughter revealed a lot more about him.
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Eephus
Footballguy
American Logan Sargeant will make his Formula 2 debut this weekend in Jeddah. There hasn't been an American at the second level since 2018.
Sargeant was recently added to the Williams young driver problem. He's driving for the last place team in F2, HWA who'll be leaving the series at the end of the season so expectations are pretty low.
Sargeant was recently added to the Williams young driver problem. He's driving for the last place team in F2, HWA who'll be leaving the series at the end of the season so expectations are pretty low.
Klimtology
Footballguy
My brother says that Formula One is the most popular sport in the world.
Is that accurate?
Is that accurate?
My brother says that Formula One is the most popular sport in the world.
Is that accurate?
I like it
(I would be surprised if it surpassed soccer on a global basis - but it has a huge world-wide following. @Eephus would know.)
Obviously depends on how you define "popular" - but a quick google search suggests its not in the top-10, but some sports that are might surprise you.
Soccer is tops, followed by Cricket - and that makes sense.
Other sports such as table tennis and volleyball have much bigger global audiences than in the US, so those may seem odd.
Basketball is up there. Hockey made the lists - but only by combining Ice and Field Hockey. Baseball, tennis and golf.
No auto-racing on any of the lists I saw.
Soccer is tops, followed by Cricket - and that makes sense.
Other sports such as table tennis and volleyball have much bigger global audiences than in the US, so those may seem odd.
Basketball is up there. Hockey made the lists - but only by combining Ice and Field Hockey. Baseball, tennis and golf.
No auto-racing on any of the lists I saw.
Klimtology
Footballguy
Klimtology
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
The Jeddah street circuit should be something. It's very fast with lots of dinky corners and nearby walls. The first chicane and last left-hander look like possible overtaking opportunities depending on how close cars are able to follow through the twisty bits.
Qualifying should be a good show but I expect the crappy race that Saudi Arabia deserves.
Qualifying should be a good show but I expect the crappy race that Saudi Arabia deserves.
I caught a little bit of practice today.
Track is fast, and narrow.
I think there are 3 DRS zones, but I am not entirely sure there is room to pass...
@Eephus - have there been non-F1 races here? If so, how did they look?
Qualifying looks important, followed closely by the race to the first/second turns, and then rinse/repeat for any safety car re-starts.
Track is fast, and narrow.
I think there are 3 DRS zones, but I am not entirely sure there is room to pass...
@Eephus - have there been non-F1 races here? If so, how did they look?
Qualifying looks important, followed closely by the race to the first/second turns, and then rinse/repeat for any safety car re-starts.
Eephus
Footballguy
Brand new circuit, literally finished this week.
That's pretty much it. No chance of rain.
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
This track is awesome. The speeds in these turns in practice are nuts. The grip on these tires is amazing. Can’t wait for actual racing 
Hope we don’t have something unfortunate happen this weekend because this course is scary fast
Hope we don’t have something unfortunate happen this weekend because this course is scary fast
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BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Glad Leclerc walked away from that accident. That’s exactly what I was talking about.
I did not see it , but this seems scary:
Formula 2
@Formula2
Both Pourchaire and Fittipaldi were immediately attended to by emergency and medical crews The drivers were conscious and extricated by the attending medical crews and have been transferred to King Fahad Armed Forces Hospital, Jeddah
Formula 2
@Formula2
Both Pourchaire and Fittipaldi were immediately attended to by emergency and medical crews The drivers were conscious and extricated by the attending medical crews and have been transferred to King Fahad Armed Forces Hospital, Jeddah
More context:
Formula 2@Formula2·52m
We are under red flag conditions Theo Pourchaire stalled on the grid, with Enzo Fittipaldi running into the back of the ART driver
2nd red flag incident later in race resulted in race being abandoned - I assume that was a time issue.
"After an incident involving Samaia and Caldwell, the race has been red flagged and will not resume Both drivers are out of the car and OK "
Formula 2@Formula2·52m
We are under red flag conditions Theo Pourchaire stalled on the grid, with Enzo Fittipaldi running into the back of the ART driver
2nd red flag incident later in race resulted in race being abandoned - I assume that was a time issue.
"After an incident involving Samaia and Caldwell, the race has been red flagged and will not resume Both drivers are out of the car and OK "
Verstappen gets an additional post-race 10-second penalty - for causing the collision with Hamilton. Verstappen stays in 2nd place in the race, and the championship remains tied headed to the last race of the season.
The stewards said Verstappen “slowed significantly at Turn 26” but that it was “obvious that neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to DRS detection line 3”.
Verstappen told the stewards he was unsure why Hamilton had not overtaken him, while Hamilton said he was not aware that Verstappen was handing him the place back.
But the decisive point of information for the stewards was that Verstappen’s sudden braking move resulted in 2.4g deceleration, which they deemed to be “erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision”.
“Hence the standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed,” the bulletin ends.
The penalty has no bearing on the final classification, though, as Verstappen finished 16 seconds clear of Valtteri Bottas in third place, meaning the Red Bull driver keeps P2.
The stewards said Verstappen “slowed significantly at Turn 26” but that it was “obvious that neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to DRS detection line 3”.
Verstappen told the stewards he was unsure why Hamilton had not overtaken him, while Hamilton said he was not aware that Verstappen was handing him the place back.
But the decisive point of information for the stewards was that Verstappen’s sudden braking move resulted in 2.4g deceleration, which they deemed to be “erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision”.
“Hence the standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed,” the bulletin ends.
The penalty has no bearing on the final classification, though, as Verstappen finished 16 seconds clear of Valtteri Bottas in third place, meaning the Red Bull driver keeps P2.
Thats a great way of putting it. I was on the edge of my seat for most of the race, but it was mostly for all the drama, rather than actual racing.
I did think it was going to be a snoozer when the start went off without a hitch, and the cars spread out. And, then once both Haas drivers were out, I thought no more excitement - but the hits just kept on coming.
From a strategy perspective, I thought Red Bull made a great call in leaving Max out for the first virtual safety car, that turned into a red flag. I do think the FIA should have known from the outset that was a red flag situation to remove the car, and also to fix the barriers - but, good call from Red Bull nonetheless.
The collision with Max and Lewis was a little surreal - commentators knew that Max was being instructed to give the spot to Lewis, but nobody in the Mercedes end seemed to know. And, then, when I saw the hit, and saw damage to Lewis' car, I kind of assumed his race was over - still a little amazed that it ended up being so little damage, and that the front nose was able to hold up to the end of the race.
One call that Mercedes got right, really two calls, going with the hard tires, and then really pushing Max to wear down his medium tires. Even without the time penalties and being forced to give up the position, there was no way for Max to have held Lewis to the end of the race.
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