*****OFFICIAL FORMULA ONE GRAND PRIX THREAD***** (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

It got lost in the McLaren team orders kerfuffle but Aston Martin had a similar issue in the closing laps. The team swapped Alonso and Stroll so Lance could try to chase down Tsunoda on newer tires. He couldn't do the overtake but also didn't give Fred the position back on the last lap. It was only for one point but it won't do anything for Alonso's bad mood. Aston has fallen back into the midfield and the team's strategy for Alonso didn't maximize his race.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Feels like the summer break can't get here soon enough for many of the teams/drivers.

 

[thecatch]

The more I think about this race, the more its clear that McLaren have made a huge mess out of it - and also going forward.

The person(s) most responsible are presumably whomever made the call to pit Norris - which created the undercut. There was no need to cover off Hamilton - who was a non-factor. But, once that mistake was made - the team should have apologized to Piastri, and done what they could to protect Lando.

Lando is the lead driver. Yes, it would have sucked for Piastri - but really, the alternative - which they chose - was to hand Piastri the race because he beat Lando at the start, while Lando was tangling with Max. But, bigger picture - Lando is the lead driver, and the driver who is still in a championship race. As a team, and in the situation the team found itself in today - they should have kept Lando in the lead - to eat into his deficit to Max. 7 point difference could be important by the end of the season.

Instead, you have created unnecessary chaos in the team - for no advantage whatsoever.

I don't know, I think those McLaren drivers are both elite. It's not a Verstappen/whoever or Hamilton/Bottas situation. It's one thing to give the lead guy points when they are head and shoulders better than the second driver but I don't think that's really the case here.

 

[Eephus]

The more I think about this race, the more its clear that McLaren have made a huge mess out of it - and also going forward.

The person(s) most responsible are presumably whomever made the call to pit Norris - which created the undercut. There was no need to cover off Hamilton - who was a non-factor. But, once that mistake was made - the team should have apologized to Piastri, and done what they could to protect Lando.

Lando is the lead driver. Yes, it would have sucked for Piastri - but really, the alternative - which they chose - was to hand Piastri the race because he beat Lando at the start, while Lando was tangling with Max. But, bigger picture - Lando is the lead driver, and the driver who is still in a championship race. As a team, and in the situation the team found itself in today - they should have kept Lando in the lead - to eat into his deficit to Max. 7 point difference could be important by the end of the season.

Instead, you have created unnecessary chaos in the team - for no advantage whatsoever.

I don't know, I think those McLaren drivers are both elite. It's not a Verstappen/whoever or Hamilton/Bottas situation. It's one thing to give the lead guy points when they are head and shoulders better than the second driver but I don't think that's really the case here.

Deciding who's #1 vs #2 is one of those things that comes with success and competing for championships. Position in the points standings is the biggest factor more than driver skill or contractual status.

Before today's race, Norris was almost 50 points up on Piastri in the driver's championship. That's not Oscar's fault but it's a fact. Now that he's gotten his maiden win, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren is more ruthless in the second half if Lando maintains his lead in the points race. I suspect some of Lando's radio whining was to bank some credits for the next time the team is in this position.

I think you're not giving Bottas enough credit for being quick. He was a clear #2 at Mercedes because Hamilton was a 3x champion at the time. Time will tell but I'm not convinced yet that Piastri is more elite than prime Bottas.

 

[thecatch]

The more I think about this race, the more its clear that McLaren have made a huge mess out of it - and also going forward.

The person(s) most responsible are presumably whomever made the call to pit Norris - which created the undercut. There was no need to cover off Hamilton - who was a non-factor. But, once that mistake was made - the team should have apologized to Piastri, and done what they could to protect Lando.

Lando is the lead driver. Yes, it would have sucked for Piastri - but really, the alternative - which they chose - was to hand Piastri the race because he beat Lando at the start, while Lando was tangling with Max. But, bigger picture - Lando is the lead driver, and the driver who is still in a championship race. As a team, and in the situation the team found itself in today - they should have kept Lando in the lead - to eat into his deficit to Max. 7 point difference could be important by the end of the season.

Instead, you have created unnecessary chaos in the team - for no advantage whatsoever.

I don't know, I think those McLaren drivers are both elite. It's not a Verstappen/whoever or Hamilton/Bottas situation. It's one thing to give the lead guy points when they are head and shoulders better than the second driver but I don't think that's really the case here.

Deciding who's #1 vs #2 is one of those things that comes with success and competing for championships. Position in the points standings is the biggest factor more than driver skill or contractual status.

Before today's race, Norris was almost 50 points up on Piastri in the driver's championship. That's not Oscar's fault but it's a fact. Now that he's gotten his maiden win, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren is more ruthless in the second half if Lando maintains his lead in the points race. I suspect some of Lando's radio whining was to bank some credits for the next time the team is in this position.

I think you're not giving Bottas enough credit for being quick. He was a clear #2 at Mercedes because Hamilton was a 3x champion at the time. Time will tell but I'm not convinced yet that Piastri is more elite than prime Bottas.

I love Bottas, but Mercedes had a clear hierarchy that I’m not sure does or should exist at McLaren right now.

 

[TennesseeJed]

The more I think about this race, the more its clear that McLaren have made a huge mess out of it - and also going forward.

The person(s) most responsible are presumably whomever made the call to pit Norris - which created the undercut. There was no need to cover off Hamilton - who was a non-factor. But, once that mistake was made - the team should have apologized to Piastri, and done what they could to protect Lando.

Lando is the lead driver. Yes, it would have sucked for Piastri - but really, the alternative - which they chose - was to hand Piastri the race because he beat Lando at the start, while Lando was tangling with Max. But, bigger picture - Lando is the lead driver, and the driver who is still in a championship race. As a team, and in the situation the team found itself in today - they should have kept Lando in the lead - to eat into his deficit to Max. 7 point difference could be important by the end of the season.

Instead, you have created unnecessary chaos in the team - for no advantage whatsoever.

I don't know, I think those McLaren drivers are both elite. It's not a Verstappen/whoever or Hamilton/Bottas situation. It's one thing to give the lead guy points when they are head and shoulders better than the second driver but I don't think that's really the case here.

Deciding who's #1 vs #2 is one of those things that comes with success and competing for championships. Position in the points standings is the biggest factor more than driver skill or contractual status.

Before today's race, Norris was almost 50 points up on Piastri in the driver's championship. That's not Oscar's fault but it's a fact. Now that he's gotten his maiden win, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren is more ruthless in the second half if Lando maintains his lead in the points race. I suspect some of Lando's radio whining was to bank some credits for the next time the team is in this position.

I think you're not giving Bottas enough credit for being quick. He was a clear #2 at Mercedes because Hamilton was a 3x champion at the time. Time will tell but I'm not convinced yet that Piastri is more elite than prime Bottas.

I love Bottas, but Mercedes had a clear hierarchy that I’m not sure does or should exist at McLaren right now.

Lando - at the halfway point of the season - is the only driver in contention with Verstappen for the title.

McLaren actually have a bit of momentum - and they could have gifted 7 more points to their contender today - without compromising their team.

It's that simple. Had this been Red Bull - Max would have won the race - because they understand every point matters.

 

[The Gator]

What a fun race. More salty Max please

 

[thecatch]

The more I think about this race, the more its clear that McLaren have made a huge mess out of it - and also going forward.

The person(s) most responsible are presumably whomever made the call to pit Norris - which created the undercut. There was no need to cover off Hamilton - who was a non-factor. But, once that mistake was made - the team should have apologized to Piastri, and done what they could to protect Lando.

Lando is the lead driver. Yes, it would have sucked for Piastri - but really, the alternative - which they chose - was to hand Piastri the race because he beat Lando at the start, while Lando was tangling with Max. But, bigger picture - Lando is the lead driver, and the driver who is still in a championship race. As a team, and in the situation the team found itself in today - they should have kept Lando in the lead - to eat into his deficit to Max. 7 point difference could be important by the end of the season.

Instead, you have created unnecessary chaos in the team - for no advantage whatsoever.

I don't know, I think those McLaren drivers are both elite. It's not a Verstappen/whoever or Hamilton/Bottas situation. It's one thing to give the lead guy points when they are head and shoulders better than the second driver but I don't think that's really the case here.

Deciding who's #1 vs #2 is one of those things that comes with success and competing for championships. Position in the points standings is the biggest factor more than driver skill or contractual status.

Before today's race, Norris was almost 50 points up on Piastri in the driver's championship. That's not Oscar's fault but it's a fact. Now that he's gotten his maiden win, I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren is more ruthless in the second half if Lando maintains his lead in the points race. I suspect some of Lando's radio whining was to bank some credits for the next time the team is in this position.

I think you're not giving Bottas enough credit for being quick. He was a clear #2 at Mercedes because Hamilton was a 3x champion at the time. Time will tell but I'm not convinced yet that Piastri is more elite than prime Bottas.

I love Bottas, but Mercedes had a clear hierarchy that I’m not sure does or should exist at McLaren right now.

Lando - at the halfway point of the season - is the only driver in contention with Verstappen for the title.

McLaren actually have a bit of momentum - and they could have gifted 7 more points to their contender today - without compromising their team.

It's that simple. Had this been Red Bull - Max would have won the race - because they understand every point matters.

You’re obviously right about the math behind maximizing the chances that one of their drivers wins an individual title. I’m just saying that I can also understand them taking the internal perspective that they have a young superstar driver (in their eyes I’m sure, at least) and the internal politics of taking a win away from him wouldn’t be great. Plus the constructors points are the same either way.

 

[Eephus]

Speaking of young superstar drivers, the entire Andrea Kimi Antonelli experience was on display this weekend. He outqualified his Prema teammate Bearman and started the sprint race from the second role. He was running a very unconventional soft tire strategy in the sprint so he had the advantage at the start and made a couple of nice overtakes to take the lead in the opening laps. He gapped the field impressively but burned up the softs and got chased down. He had to make an unscheduled pit stop for new rubber and finished out of the points.

He made up for in Sunday's feature race. Prema went off strategy again and started Antonelli on the hard compound. His race looked ruined when his competitors on softs got a free pitstop due to a safety car. After the race went green, Kimi took off and opened a 9 second lead. That wouldn't be enough to cover the field after his mandatory pitstop but he got lucky with another safety car. He restarted the race P5 on fresh softs and overtook everyone ahead of him in two laps. It wasn't like Leclerc's legendary run through the F2 field in Bahrain 2017 but it was very impressive.

I think he's shown enough to get the Mercedes seat. There will be teenage errors like in the sprint race but he'll learn from those and the talent is real.

 

[jb1020]

What a fun race. More salty Max please

I've only been tuned in for a few season, but I'm s glad I got to witness Dominate Max. It makes this reckless/crybaby Max so much more entertaining. Max is kind of growing on me now.

Really, why not let Lando win? It just seems like if anyone can catch Max it has to be Lando.

Also, the announcers constantly harping on Max for staying up Sim racing seemed a little silly.

 

[The Gator]

What a fun race. More salty Max please

I've only been tuned in for a few season, but I'm s glad I got to witness Dominate Max. It makes this reckless/crybaby Max so much more entertaining. Max is kind of growing on me now.

Really, why not let Lando win? It just seems like if anyone can catch Max it has to be Lando.

Also, the announcers constantly harping on Max for staying up Sim racing seemed a little silly.

I've found the F1TV commentary to be quite a bit better than Sky Sports'. Didn't hear one mention of the Max sim racing that everyone is complaining about from Crofty. It was glorious yesterday with all the wild radio chatter going on.

Also agree with you on Max, I'm a fan.

"it's quite impressive how we let ourselves get undercut and completely **** my race"

"No mate, don't give me that **** now. You guys gave me this **** strategy, O.K.? I'm trying to rescue what's left."


Sign me up for more of that

 

[Payne]

I have grown to enjoy watching F1 with my daughter, but yesterday was just another reason why I can't take it seriously.

All the talk about lead driver, etc. is just nonsense. What happened to let the best car win?
Or, as somebody mentioned earlier, Oscar "won" the race at the start. What?!? No race should ever be won at the start.

And why can't both teams have a pit crew like any other brand of racing?

It just seems silly. Very little passing. Where you qualify basically tells you where you'll finish.
Team orders and strategies. Just not sure why this sport is so huge.

 

[The Gator]

All the talk about lead driver, etc. is just nonsense. What happened to let the best car win?

Mclaren's strategy messed it up.

Oscar was the best car, leading the race, but they called in Lando first which was the incorrect thing to do. They then asked Lando to cover their arses and swap back.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Apparently it had been discussed in the morning McLaren meeting. Lando would have been going back on that.

The handling of the 2 drivers on a team is always a key source of drama in F1. Mercedes has generally been best about it over the years. Vettel-era Ferrari always seemed to be the worst. Teams where the drivers are remotely close tend to struggle with it the most.

I do think the circumstances of Piastri having zero wins was very much at play here. Correct strategy for that is for him to pit first.

The driver's championship is a much more remote possibly than the constructors title. They overdid it with the Lando undercut (credit the recent resurgence of Mercedes for that I guess) but for the team situation over the course of the year this was the worst thing to do - especially as Piastri has been the loyal partner all year.

If Piastri feels screwed than you have a season of him perhaps screwing over his teammate and then they get side by side in the wrong corner and REALLY look like dopes.


-QG

 

[Eephus]

If Piastri feels screwed than you have a season of him perhaps screwing over his teammate and then they get side by side in the wrong corner and REALLY look like dopes.

Oscar doesn't seem the type to go full Ocon on his teammate.

 

[QuizGuy66]

If Piastri feels screwed than you have a season of him perhaps screwing over his teammate and then they get side by side in the wrong corner and REALLY look like dopes.

Oscar doesn't seem the type to go full Ocon on his teammate.

True but why find out the hard way? I mean you also presumably want to keep him around.

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

And considering how messy Piastri's arrival circumstances were there is that too.
-QG

 

[Eephus]

Even with 11 races to go, Norris is on the very fringe of a championship run. He's three race wins behind and Red Bull hasn't dropped off that much. A Max DNF or two would certainly help but attrition in F1 is historically low and Norris can have bad weekends too.

I'm not convinced McLaren is up to the challenge yet either. To make up that large of a gap, everyone has to execute perfectly and that hasn't been the case this year at all. It may be my dislike of Zak Brown showing, but I don't associate the team (F1 or Indycar) with the ruthless efficiency we've come to expect (most of the time ) from RBR and Mercedes.

 

[PIK95]

What would have had to happen to get Danny ric back in a rb seat? Other than being better.

Time machine also.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Oh I dislike the orange team too but with Checo's struggles they do have a sporting chance at constructors with proper teamwork.

-QG

 

[Eephus]

Oh I dislike the orange team too but with Checo's struggles they do have a sporting chance at constructors with proper teamwork.

-QG

If you extrapolate points from the last five races (which excludes RBR's Monaco debacle), McLaren is averaging 8 more points per race. At this rate, McLaren will reel in Red Bull in the standings by the Mexico round.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Even with 11 races to go, Norris is on the very fringe of a championship run. He's three race wins behind and Red Bull hasn't dropped off that much. A Max DNF or two would certainly help but attrition in F1 is historically low and Norris can have bad weekends too.

I'm not convinced McLaren is up to the challenge yet either. To make up that large of a gap, everyone has to execute perfectly and that hasn't been the case this year at all. It may be my dislike of Zak Brown showing, but I don't associate the team (F1 or Indycar) with the ruthless efficiency we've come to expect (most of the time ) from RBR and Mercedes.

Yeah - I do like McLaren - but they have shown several times this season that they are not up to the task.

Part of it is a learning curve for teams at the top, and its been a while for McLaren - but, they (and their drivers) need to be better focused.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Binotto taking over the Audi F1 project. Excellent we need some chaotic in-race decision making.

-QG

 

[Eephus]

Binotto taking over the Audi F1 project. Excellent we need some chaotic in-race decision making.

-QG

Very interesting. Binotto will be COO and CTO rather than team principal. Andreas Seidl is forced out a year and a half before the team's first race. The German press is reporting current Aston Martin team principal Mike Krack is also heading to Audi.

Binotto got a lot of stick for Ferrari's tactical errors under his watch but the cars were fast and he did a good job coordinating the chassis and engine sides of the house at Maranello. He'll have to deal with similar challenges with Audi.

 

[The Gator]

Binotto taking over the Audi F1 project. Excellent we need some chaotic in-race decision making.

-QG

He already has the natural hair style for clown hair, too.

 

[Eephus]

The German press is reporting that Renault shutting down their powertrain division is fait accompli. This has been long rumored before but not for the 2025 season. Alpine will supposedly switch to Mercedes power which opens another potential parking spot for Antonelli.

Personnel in the Viry factory are supposedly preparing for layoffs. It'll be a shame to lose the second longest serving engine supplier but they've really been on the back foot for the past couple of tech cycles.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Verstappen is going to take a 10-spot grid penalty this weekend for introducing a 5th engine this season. This will the the 3rd consecutive year Red Bull have elected to take a greed penalty at Spa - where passing is a bit easier. Verstappen won in 2022 from 14th on the grid, and last year from 6th on the grid.

It could be a little more difficult this year to get the win - but Verstappen should be fine.

Now its up to McLaren to see if they can push Lando forward - of if they pull a Ferrari on strategy...

 

[The Gator]

Verstappen is going to take a 10-spot grid penalty this weekend for introducing a 5th engine this season. This will the the 3rd consecutive year Red Bull have elected to take a greed penalty at Spa - where passing is a bit easier. Verstappen won in 2022 from 14th on the grid, and last year from 6th on the grid.

It could be a little more difficult this year to get the win - but Verstappen should be fine.

Now its up to McLaren to see if they can push Lando forward - of if they pull a Ferrari on strategy...

This was mentioned as a reason McLaren should have let Lando win last week.

Red Bull has a (few) of these coming?? I guess Max has went through a few parts already and might be getting more grid penalties.

 

[The Gator]

Verstappen is going to take a 10-spot grid penalty this weekend

Also, say that Max crashes in Q1 and would have started 17th. Does he get a 7 place penalty the following race?

 

[TennesseeJed]

Verstappen is going to take a 10-spot grid penalty this weekend for introducing a 5th engine this season. This will the the 3rd consecutive year Red Bull have elected to take a greed penalty at Spa - where passing is a bit easier. Verstappen won in 2022 from 14th on the grid, and last year from 6th on the grid.

It could be a little more difficult this year to get the win - but Verstappen should be fine.

Now its up to McLaren to see if they can push Lando forward - of if they pull a Ferrari on strategy...

This was mentioned as a reason McLaren should have let Lando win last week.

Red Bull has a (few) of these coming?? I guess Max has went through a few parts already and might be getting more grid penalties.

My guess is that Red Bull are hoping this is the last one. He still has at least 2, maybe 3 engines he can use - they all degrade a little over time - but 1 is definitely crocked (literally cracked) - and so getting a new engine into the rotation now - I think RB will hope is enough to last the season.

Spa just happens to be a strategic race to take grid penalties due to the ability to pass on track.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Verstappen is going to take a 10-spot grid penalty this weekend

Also, say that Max crashes in Q1 and would have started 17th. Does he get a 7 place penalty the following race?

No - back of the grid - unless he takes new parts after Quali - and @Eephus can correct me here - but in that case he would take a Pit Lane start.

There was a driver a couple of races ago - probably a Haas or Alpine - but they had something like a combined 50 place drop for various penalties and started at the back of the grid. (there was a funny meme showing that they should start about half-way back in the lap...)

 

[Eephus]

I believe it was Gasly who had the 50 grid place penalty at Silverstone.



ETA: maybe the karmic effect of this ruined his race in Hungary

 

[Eephus]

It doesn't seem like Red Bull has the same massive DRS advantage this year like they did in 2023 so overtaking down the Kemmel straight might be a little tougher.

 

[The Gator]

Regarding the Lando/Oscar issue last race-

If Lando instantly gives the place back to Oscar with ~15 laps left; does he get a fair chance to overtake Oscar?

 

[TennesseeJed]

Regarding the Lando/Oscar issue last race-

If Lando instantly gives the place back to Oscar with ~15 laps left; does he get a fair chance to overtake Oscar?

If it was max - he would have let Piastri pass him right before the DRS line - and then immediately overtake him by using the DRS...

 

[The Gator]

Regarding the Lando/Oscar issue last race-

If Lando instantly gives the place back to Oscar with ~15 laps left; does he get a fair chance to overtake Oscar?

If it was max - he would have let Piastri pass him right before the DRS line - and then immediately overtake him by using the DRS...

LOL

Yeah, Max or Lewis never give that place back.


But on it's own, if Lando gives the place back instantly; would Mclaren have allowed him to fight and potentially overtake Oscar?

 

[Eephus]

But on it's own, if Lando gives the place back instantly; would Mclaren have allowed him to fight and potentially overtake Oscar?

Depends what was discussed at "every single Sunday meeting" they have. I guess we'll never know.

One of the more infamous team orders calls was in the 1998 season opener in Melbourne. McLaren had locked out the front row so they agreed that whomever got to Turn 1 first would be given precedence to win the race. Mika Hakkinen beat Coulthard to the corner and was never challenged as the McLarens lapped the field.

 

[TennesseeJed]

But on it's own, if Lando gives the place back instantly; would Mclaren have allowed him to fight and potentially overtake Oscar?

Depends what was discussed at "every single Sunday meeting" they have. I guess we'll never know.

One of the more infamous team orders calls was in the 1998 season opener in Melbourne. McLaren had locked out the front row so they agreed that whomever got to Turn 1 first would be given precedence to win the race. Mika Hakkinen beat Coulthard to the corner and was never challenged as the McLarens lapped the field.

Its interesting because Coulthard was on the F1TV broadcast in Hungary - and when the McLaren situation was playing out over the closing laps, he was asked about a time he was given team orders to give up the lead - and was effectively threatened with his seat if he did not comply - he gave up the spot - but said that if he had to do it all over again - he would not have given it up.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Regarding the Lando/Oscar issue last race-

If Lando instantly gives the place back to Oscar with ~15 laps left; does he get a fair chance to overtake Oscar?

I will go with the other scenario that leads to the same question. Let's they do what they were supposed to and Piastri had pitted first and then Lando the lap after. I think there was at least a decent chance Lando chases him down.

There was a comment earlier in the race before the mess to Lando that he was "allowed to race the papaya" - I think that very well could have happened and so long as it was done clean and without jeopardizing the 1-2 it would have happened.

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

Ocon is an appropriate replacement for Magnussen in the Haas chaos seat.
-QG

 

[thecatch]

Ocon is an appropriate replacement for Magnussen in the Haas chaos seat.
-QG

A podcast I listen to made the point that he's perhaps not the ideal hire when you are breaking in a new driver in the other seat.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Ocon is an appropriate replacement for Magnussen in the Haas chaos seat.
-QG

A podcast I listen to made the point that he's perhaps not the ideal hire when you are breaking in a new driver in the other seat.

Oh certainly not. But for chaos he's the guy

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

With all due respect to Coco and Lebron, Logan should be the Olympic flag-bearer

-QG

 

[Eephus]

Oh certainly not. But for chaos he's the guy

His reputation is the biggest reason Haas was able to sign a driver of Ocon's caliber. He comes with some risk but I think it's a good hire that shows some ambition from Haas.

 

[The Gator]

Watching the F2 race and AKA's first win last weekend. Crazy they go down to a timed race +1 lap at the end.

That's just because of the two safety cars?

 

[TennesseeJed]

This is shaping up to be a 3-car race - I'd bet on Piastri winning again.

 

[The Gator]

This is shaping up to be a 3-car race - I'd bet on Piastri winning again.

Love the charge McLaren is making.

Would F1 benefit from longer periods of time between regulation changes? Seems like teams are catching up now but then the regs will just change again.

 

[QuizGuy66]

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

Verstappen fears Logan so he had to interfere there :(

-QG

 

[TennesseeJed]

Not many people know this - but that Vertappen kid is a good driver.