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***Official Free Speech Thread*** Saints and Hillary, Sitting... (1 Viewer)

rockaction

Footballguy
In light of the bakery cakes and other things that buttress up against polite and propriety and proprietary society, please post here.

Any egregious or technical arguments are welcome.

Have fun.

 
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Court Rules That YouTube Cannot Be Forced to Remove Innocence of MuslimsAn appeals court today reversed a lower court’s decision compelling YouTube to remove the controversial film Innocence of Muslims, saying that such an act was a violation of the First Amendment.

The film, a 13-minute “trailer” created by Nakoula Basseley Nakoula in 2012, sparked outrage among the Muslim community for its depiction of the prophet Muhammad as a pedophile and a murderer, and for a time was thought to be the cause of the attacks against the American embassy in Benghazi, Libya.

The initial lawsuit had been filed by Cindy Lee Garcia, one of the actresses in the film, who said that she had no idea that her film was about Islam. (Her lines in the film had been dubbed over and replaced with: “Is your Mohammed a child molester?”). Garcia claimed that as a result of the film, she received death threats and demanded that YouTube remove the film; a three-judge panel on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals initially sided with her claim. A year later, the entire eleven judge panel revisited the decision and reversed it.

In the opinion, written by Judge M. Margaret McKeown, they based their ruling on Garcia’s specific claim — that she held a copyright to her five seconds of performance, and that YouTube was violating that copyright by hosting the movie without her permission. The :

In addition, the takedown order was a straightforward violation of the law and the First Amendment, McKeown wrote. “The mandatory injunction censored and suppressed a politically significant film — based upon a dubious and unprecedented theory of copyright,” she argued. “In so doing, the panel deprived the public of the ability to view firsthand, and judge for themselves, a film at the center of an international uproar.”

As Garcia characterizes it, “the main issue in this case involves the vicious frenzy against Ms. Garcia that the Film caused among certain radical elements of the Muslim community.” We are sympathetic to her plight. Nonetheless, the claim against Google is grounded in copyright law, not privacy, emotional distress, or tort law, and Garcia seeks to impose speech restrictions under copyright laws meant to foster rather than repress free expression. Garcia’s theory can be likened to “copyright cherrypicking,” which would enable any contributor from a costume designer down to an extra or best boy to claim copyright in random bits and pieces of a unitary motion picture without satisfying the requirements of the Copyright Act. Putting aside the rhetoric of Hollywood hijinks and the dissent’s dramatics, this case must be decided on the law.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/court-rules-that-youtube-cannot-be-forced-to-remove-innocence-of-muslims/

 
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SaintsInDome2006, on 18 May 2015 - 3:34 PM, said:
Quote Court Rules That YouTube Cannot Be Forced to Remove Innocence of MuslimsAn appeals court today reversed a lower court’s decision compelling YouTube to remove the controversial film Innocence of Muslims, saying that such an act was a violation of the First Amendment.

The film, a 13-minute “trailer” created by Nakoula Basseley Nakoula in 2012, sparked outrage among the Muslim community for its depiction of the prophet Muhammad as a pedophile and a murderer, and for a time was thought to be the cause of the attacks against the American embassy in Benghazi, Libya.

The initial lawsuit had been filed by Cindy Lee Garcia, one of the actresses in the film, who said that she had no idea that her film was about Islam. (Her lines in the film had been dubbed over and replaced with: “Is your Mohammed a child molester?”). Garcia claimed that as a result of the film, she received death threats and demanded that YouTube remove the film; a three-judge panel on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals initially sided with her claim. A year later, the entire eleven judge panel revisited the decision and reversed it.

In the opinion, written by Judge M. Margaret McKeown, they based their ruling on Garcia’s specific claim — that she held a copyright to her five seconds of performance, and that YouTube was violating that copyright by hosting the movie without her permission. The :

In addition, the takedown order was a straightforward violation of the law and the First Amendment, McKeown wrote. “The mandatory injunction censored and suppressed a politically significant film — based upon a dubious and unprecedented theory of copyright,” she argued. “In so doing, the panel deprived the public of the ability to view firsthand, and judge for themselves, a film at the center of an international uproar.”

As Garcia characterizes it, “the main issue in this case involves the vicious frenzy against Ms. Garcia that the Film caused among certain radical elements of the Muslim community.” We are sympathetic to her plight. Nonetheless, the claim against Google is grounded in copyright law, not privacy, emotional distress, or tort law, and Garcia seeks to impose speech restrictions under copyright laws meant to foster rather than repress free expression. Garcia’s theory can be likened to “copyright cherrypicking,” which would enable any contributor from a costume designer down to an extra or best boy to claim copyright in random bits and pieces of a unitary motion picture without satisfying the requirements of the Copyright Act. Putting aside the rhetoric of Hollywood hijinks and the dissent’s dramatics, this case must be decided on the law.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/court-rules-that-youtube-cannot-be-forced-to-remove-innocence-of-muslims/
So we can expect another Benghazi?

 
SaintsInDome2006, on 18 May 2015 - 3:34 PM, said:
Quote Court Rules That YouTube Cannot Be Forced to Remove Innocence of MuslimsAn appeals court today reversed a lower court’s decision compelling YouTube to remove the controversial film Innocence of Muslims, saying that such an act was a violation of the First Amendment.

The film, a 13-minute “trailer” created by Nakoula Basseley Nakoula in 2012, sparked outrage among the Muslim community for its depiction of the prophet Muhammad as a pedophile and a murderer, and for a time was thought to be the cause of the attacks against the American embassy in Benghazi, Libya.

The initial lawsuit had been filed by Cindy Lee Garcia, one of the actresses in the film, who said that she had no idea that her film was about Islam. (Her lines in the film had been dubbed over and replaced with: “Is your Mohammed a child molester?”). Garcia claimed that as a result of the film, she received death threats and demanded that YouTube remove the film; a three-judge panel on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals initially sided with her claim. A year later, the entire eleven judge panel revisited the decision and reversed it.

In the opinion, written by Judge M. Margaret McKeown, they based their ruling on Garcia’s specific claim — that she held a copyright to her five seconds of performance, and that YouTube was violating that copyright by hosting the movie without her permission. The :

In addition, the takedown order was a straightforward violation of the law and the First Amendment, McKeown wrote. “The mandatory injunction censored and suppressed a politically significant film — based upon a dubious and unprecedented theory of copyright,” she argued. “In so doing, the panel deprived the public of the ability to view firsthand, and judge for themselves, a film at the center of an international uproar.”

As Garcia characterizes it, “the main issue in this case involves the vicious frenzy against Ms. Garcia that the Film caused among certain radical elements of the Muslim community.” We are sympathetic to her plight. Nonetheless, the claim against Google is grounded in copyright law, not privacy, emotional distress, or tort law, and Garcia seeks to impose speech restrictions under copyright laws meant to foster rather than repress free expression. Garcia’s theory can be likened to “copyright cherrypicking,” which would enable any contributor from a costume designer down to an extra or best boy to claim copyright in random bits and pieces of a unitary motion picture without satisfying the requirements of the Copyright Act. Putting aside the rhetoric of Hollywood hijinks and the dissent’s dramatics, this case must be decided on the law.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/court-rules-that-youtube-cannot-be-forced-to-remove-innocence-of-muslims/
So we can expect another Benghazi?
Pretty sure it can be watched without any riots ever breaking out.

http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/152622/Innocence-of-Muslims-Official-Movie-Trailer-5-Controversial-Egypt-Protest-Film/

 
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USA came in 49th in the most recent press freedom rankings, worldwide.

http://index.rsf.org/#!/

http://index.rsf.org/#!/index-details/USA

In the United States, 2014 was marked by judicial harassment of New York Times investigative reporter James Risen in connection with the trial of Jeffrey Sterling, a former CIA officer charged under the Espionage Act with giving him classified information. US journalists are still not protected by a federal shield law that would guarantee their right not to name their sources or reveal other confidential information about their work. Meanwhile, at least 15 journalists were arbitrarily arrested during clashes between police and demonstrators protesting against black teenager Michael Brown’s fatal shooting by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri.
 
SCOTUS rules in favor of man convicted of posting threatening messages on Facebook


Washington (CNN)The Supreme Court ruled Monday in favor of a Pennsylvania man who posted several violent messages on Facebook and was convicted under a federal threat statute -- the first time the Court raised the implications of free speech on social media.
The Court said that it wasn't enough to convict the man based solely on the idea that a reasonable person would regard his communications as a threat.

"Our holding makes clear that negligence is not sufficient to support a conviction," wrote Chief Justice John Roberts.

The Court held that the legal standard used to convict him was too low, but left open what the standard should be. It is a narrow ruling and the Court did not address the larger constitutional issue.

The case concerns a Pennsylvania man, Anthony D. Elonis, who posted several violent messages on his social media account after his wife left him. He claimed he was an artist who turned to rap lyrics for therapeutic purposes to help him cope with depression.

"There¹s one way to love you but a thousand ways to kill you," he wrote in one post.

"Enough elementary schools in a ten mile radius to initiate the most heinous school shooting ever imagined," he wrote in another.

He was convicted for violating a federal threat statute.

Elonis appealed his conviction to the Supreme Court arguing that the government should have been required to prove he actually intended to make a threat before sending him to jail for a 44 month term. Instead, the jury was told the standard was whether a "reasonable person" would have understood the words to be a threat.

John P. Elwood, Elonis' lawyer stressed in court briefs that his client often posted disclaimers noting he was only exercising his freedom of speech. "The First Amendment¹s basic command is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds it offensive or disagreeable," Elwood wrote. At trial , Elonis testified that his Facebook posts were partly inspired by rap star Eminem.

In court briefs Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli, Jr defended the conviction."He was aware of the meaning and context of his Facebook posts, and those posts communicated a serious expression of an intent to do harm, "Verrilli wrote.Verilli said there was no comparison between Elonis' threats and the protected speech of commercial rap artists made in a "very different" context. But the ACLU filed a brief in support of Elonis argued that context matters. "Words are slippery things," wrote Stephen Shapiro. He said that a statute that limits speech "without regard to the speaker¹s intended meaning" runs the risk of punishing protected First Amendment expression simply because it is "crudely or zealously expressed."


http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/supreme-court-elonis-facebook-ruling/index.html

 
Reason Magazine Subpoena Stomps on Free SpeechWielding subpoenas demanding information on anonymous commenters, the government is harassing a respected journalism site that dissents from its policies. The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York claims these comments could constitute violent threats, even though they’re clearly hyperbolic political rhetoric.

This is happening in America -- weirdly, to a site I founded, and one whose commenters often earned my public contempt.

Los Angeles legal blogger Ken White has obtained a grand jury subpoena issued to Reason.com, the online home of the libertarian magazine I edited throughout the 1990s. The subpoena seeks information about commenters who posted in response to an article by the site’s editor Nick Gillespie about the letter that Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht wrote to Judge Katherine B. Forrest before she sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Ulbricht was convicted of seven felony charges, included conspiracies to traffic in narcotics and launder money, and faced a minimum sentence of 20 years in prison. The letter was an appeal for leniency.

Gillespie, who declined to comment on the subpoena, aptly described the letter as “haunting.” In it, Ulbricht expressed the libertarian ideals he said animated his creation of Silk Road -- the same ideals that Reason upholds. The portion Gillespie reproduced reads:

I created Silk Road because I thought the idea for the website itself had value, and that bringing Silk Road into being was the right thing to do. I believed at the time that people should have the right to buy and sell whatever they wanted so long as they weren’t hurting anyone else. However, I’ve learned since then that taking immediate actions on one’s beliefs, without taking the necessary time to really think them through, can have disastrous consequences. Silk Road turned out to be a very naive and costly idea that I deeply regret.
Silk Road was supposed to be about giving people the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit. What it turned into was, in part, a convenient way for people to satisfy their drug addictions. I do not and never have advocated the abuse of drugs. I learned from Silk Road that when you give people freedom, you don’t know what they’ll do with it. While I still don’t think people should be denied the right to make this decision for themselves, I never sought to create a site that would provide another avenue for people to feed their addictions. Had I been more mature, or more patient, or even more worldly then, I would have done things differently.
The letter depicts Silk Road as an attempt to bring libertarian ideals into the real world -- a virtual version of the seasteading schemes for new countries, hopelessly naive, perhaps, but certainly not evil in its intentions.

Judge Forrest handed down a sentence even more draconian than prosecutors had sought and made a point of condemning Ulbricht’s political views. “In the world you created over time, democracy didn’t exist,” she said. “Silk Road’s birth and presence asserted that its…creator was better than the laws of this country. This is deeply troubling, terribly misguided, and very dangerous.”

Whatever you think of Ulbricht or Silk Road, you can see why libertarians might be upset. A federal judge has just made the belief that it’s good for people to have “the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit” part of her justification for the most punitive sentence short of the death penalty. Her rationale offends libertarians on two grounds: It punishes political views and it punishes their particular political views.

The Reason commenters expressed heartbreak and rage. “Damn, it's painful to read that letter. A life sentence for providing a platform for people to do what they do regardless -- just making it easier,” Lady Bertrum wrote in the first response. “The rightness of his worldview bumping up against his naivety and arrogance is awful.”

Unfortunately, such ladylike responses aren’t typical of Reason commenters, who often sound like drunk teenage boys trying to one-up each other. They tend to forget that their online pals aren't the only ones reading what they say. In his post, White described Reason as a "leading libertarian website whose clever writing is eclipsed only by the blowhard stupidity of its commenting peanut gallery." Puerile they undoubtedly are, but Reason commenters are also harmless (unless you care about reasoned political discourse or the image of libertarians).

In this case, they were furious and, in their fury, some of them got nasty. “Its judges like these that should be taken out back and shot,” wrote Agammamon. “Why waste ammunition? Wood chippers get the message across clearly. Especially if you feed them in feet first,” responded croaker. “I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman,” commented Rhywun. “I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well,” chimed in ProductPlacement. (Reason has since removed the offending comments.)

No one in their right mind would take this hyperbolic venting seriously as threatening Judge Forrest, who back in the fall had personal information published on an underground site, along with talk of stealing her identity or calling in tips to send SWAT teams to her house. The Reason commenters, by contrast, included nothing so specific.

As White notes in his post, which offers a detailed legal analysis of the situation, the comments “do not specify who is going to use violence, or when. They do not offer a plan, other than juvenile mouth-breathing about ‘wood chippers’ and revolutionary firing squads. They do not contain any indication that any of the mouthy commenters has the ability to carry out a threat. Nobody in the thread reacts to them as if they are serious.” Nobody even assumes the judge will see their comments. Why would she?

Venting anger about injustice is not a crime. Neither is being obnoxious on the Internet. The chances of one of these commenters being convicted of threatening the judge are essentially nil. Conviction isn’t the point. Crying “threats” just makes a handy pretext for harassing Reason and its commenters.

The real threats aren’t coming from the likes of Agammamon and croaker. They’re coming from civil servants in suits. Subpoenaing Reason’s website records, wasting its staff’s time and forcing it to pay legal fees in hopes of imposing even larger legal costs and possibly even a plea bargain (or two on the average Joes who dared to voice their dissident views in angry tones ) sends an intimidating message: It’s dangerous not just to create something like Silk Road. It’s dangerous to defend it, and even more dangerous to attack those who would punish its creator. You may think you have free speech, but we’ll find a way to make you pay.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-09/reason-magazine-subpoena-stomps-on-free-speech

 
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Reason Magazine Subpoena Stomps on Free SpeechWielding subpoenas demanding information on anonymous commenters, the government is harassing a respected journalism site that dissents from its policies. The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York claims these comments could constitute violent threats, even though they’re clearly hyperbolic political rhetoric.

This is happening in America -- weirdly, to a site I founded, and one whose commenters often earned my public contempt.

Los Angeles legal blogger Ken White has obtained a grand jury subpoena issued to Reason.com, the online home of the libertarian magazine I edited throughout the 1990s. The subpoena seeks information about commenters who posted in response to an article by the site’s editor Nick Gillespie about the letter that Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht wrote to Judge Katherine B. Forrest before she sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Ulbricht was convicted of seven felony charges, included conspiracies to traffic in narcotics and launder money, and faced a minimum sentence of 20 years in prison. The letter was an appeal for leniency.

Gillespie, who declined to comment on the subpoena, aptly described the letter as “haunting.” In it, Ulbricht expressed the libertarian ideals he said animated his creation of Silk Road -- the same ideals that Reason upholds. The portion Gillespie reproduced reads:

I created Silk Road because I thought the idea for the website itself had value, and that bringing Silk Road into being was the right thing to do. I believed at the time that people should have the right to buy and sell whatever they wanted so long as they weren’t hurting anyone else. However, I’ve learned since then that taking immediate actions on one’s beliefs, without taking the necessary time to really think them through, can have disastrous consequences. Silk Road turned out to be a very naive and costly idea that I deeply regret.
Silk Road was supposed to be about giving people the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit. What it turned into was, in part, a convenient way for people to satisfy their drug addictions. I do not and never have advocated the abuse of drugs. I learned from Silk Road that when you give people freedom, you don’t know what they’ll do with it. While I still don’t think people should be denied the right to make this decision for themselves, I never sought to create a site that would provide another avenue for people to feed their addictions. Had I been more mature, or more patient, or even more worldly then, I would have done things differently.
The letter depicts Silk Road as an attempt to bring libertarian ideals into the real world -- a virtual version of the seasteading schemes for new countries, hopelessly naive, perhaps, but certainly not evil in its intentions.

Judge Forrest handed down a sentence even more draconian than prosecutors had sought and made a point of condemning Ulbricht’s political views. “In the world you created over time, democracy didn’t exist,” she said. “Silk Road’s birth and presence asserted that its…creator was better than the laws of this country. This is deeply troubling, terribly misguided, and very dangerous.”

Whatever you think of Ulbricht or Silk Road, you can see why libertarians might be upset. A federal judge has just made the belief that it’s good for people to have “the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit” part of her justification for the most punitive sentence short of the death penalty. Her rationale offends libertarians on two grounds: It punishes political views and it punishes their particular political views.

The Reason commenters expressed heartbreak and rage. “Damn, it's painful to read that letter. A life sentence for providing a platform for people to do what they do regardless -- just making it easier,” Lady Bertrum wrote in the first response. “The rightness of his worldview bumping up against his naivety and arrogance is awful.”

Unfortunately, such ladylike responses aren’t typical of Reason commenters, who often sound like drunk teenage boys trying to one-up each other. They tend to forget that their online pals aren't the only ones reading what they say. In his post, White described Reason as a "leading libertarian website whose clever writing is eclipsed only by the blowhard stupidity of its commenting peanut gallery." Puerile they undoubtedly are, but Reason commenters are also harmless (unless you care about reasoned political discourse or the image of libertarians).

In this case, they were furious and, in their fury, some of them got nasty. “Its judges like these that should be taken out back and shot,” wrote Agammamon. “Why waste ammunition? Wood chippers get the message across clearly. Especially if you feed them in feet first,” responded croaker. “I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman,” commented Rhywun. “I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well,” chimed in ProductPlacement. (Reason has since removed the offending comments.)

No one in their right mind would take this hyperbolic venting seriously as threatening Judge Forrest, who back in the fall had personal information published on an underground site, along with talk of stealing her identity or calling in tips to send SWAT teams to her house. The Reason commenters, by contrast, included nothing so specific.

As White notes in his post, which offers a detailed legal analysis of the situation, the comments “do not specify who is going to use violence, or when. They do not offer a plan, other than juvenile mouth-breathing about ‘wood chippers’ and revolutionary firing squads. They do not contain any indication that any of the mouthy commenters has the ability to carry out a threat. Nobody in the thread reacts to them as if they are serious.” Nobody even assumes the judge will see their comments. Why would she?

Venting anger about injustice is not a crime. Neither is being obnoxious on the Internet. The chances of one of these commenters being convicted of threatening the judge are essentially nil. Conviction isn’t the point. Crying “threats” just makes a handy pretext for harassing Reason and its commenters.

The real threats aren’t coming from the likes of Agammamon and croaker. They’re coming from civil servants in suits. Subpoenaing Reason’s website records, wasting its staff’s time and forcing it to pay legal fees in hopes of imposing even larger legal costs and possibly even a plea bargain (or two on the average Joes who dared to voice their dissident views in angry tones ) sends an intimidating message: It’s dangerous not just to create something like Silk Road. It’s dangerous to defend it, and even more dangerous to attack those who would punish its creator. You may think you have free speech, but we’ll find a way to make you pay.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-09/reason-magazine-subpoena-stomps-on-free-speech
Was going to post this earlier, given my previous citations both to commenters over at reason in the gay marriage/pizza thread and the numerous times I've mentioned the true threat doctrine in these very threads.

Interesting development. Virginia Postrel did found that site, and does indeed tend to dislike the level of commentary from its comment section (I disagree; I think you have to really get involved in the comment section to understand that its messiness and vulgarity can obscure its level of thought and humor. It's like being here every day and getting some of the in-jokes, acceptable misspellings, PM'ing shuke, etc. Except over there it hinges on a good deal of vulgarity and verbal brutality. Tastes vary, IMO.)

Regardless, I've found the whole thing interesting. Reason commenters have been in hot water before, IIRC. There was a lawsuit and discovery directed at the commentariat about allegations of a certain litigious (patent?) lawyer and certain alleged acts he was said to have committed with porcine-like beings.

But more broadly, this does seem to be an attempt at chilling speech. It's either that or less sinister; it's arrogance on the part of the judge. Either way, I -- and others -- have a hard time believing these statements constitute actual threats. I was heartened that Postrel, Popehat, and Ilya Somin all seem to think this discovery and subpoena request is indeed aimed at chilling speech, no matter how offensive or juvenile that speech is.

 
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Reason Magazine Subpoena Stomps on Free SpeechWielding subpoenas demanding information on anonymous commenters, the government is harassing a respected journalism site that dissents from its policies. The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York claims these comments could constitute violent threats, even though they’re clearly hyperbolic political rhetoric.

This is happening in America -- weirdly, to a site I founded, and one whose commenters often earned my public contempt.

Los Angeles legal blogger Ken White has obtained a grand jury subpoena issued to Reason.com, the online home of the libertarian magazine I edited throughout the 1990s. The subpoena seeks information about commenters who posted in response to an article by the site’s editor Nick Gillespie about the letter that Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht wrote to Judge Katherine B. Forrest before she sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Ulbricht was convicted of seven felony charges, included conspiracies to traffic in narcotics and launder money, and faced a minimum sentence of 20 years in prison. The letter was an appeal for leniency.

Gillespie, who declined to comment on the subpoena, aptly described the letter as “haunting.” In it, Ulbricht expressed the libertarian ideals he said animated his creation of Silk Road -- the same ideals that Reason upholds. The portion Gillespie reproduced reads:

The letter depicts Silk Road as an attempt to bring libertarian ideals into the real world -- a virtual version of the seasteading schemes for new countries, hopelessly naive, perhaps, but certainly not evil in its intentions.

I created Silk Road because I thought the idea for the website itself had value, and that bringing Silk Road into being was the right thing to do. I believed at the time that people should have the right to buy and sell whatever they wanted so long as they weren’t hurting anyone else. However, I’ve learned since then that taking immediate actions on one’s beliefs, without taking the necessary time to really think them through, can have disastrous consequences. Silk Road turned out to be a very naive and costly idea that I deeply regret.

Silk Road was supposed to be about giving people the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit. What it turned into was, in part, a convenient way for people to satisfy their drug addictions. I do not and never have advocated the abuse of drugs. I learned from Silk Road that when you give people freedom, you don’t know what they’ll do with it. While I still don’t think people should be denied the right to make this decision for themselves, I never sought to create a site that would provide another avenue for people to feed their addictions. Had I been more mature, or more patient, or even more worldly then, I would have done things differently.

Judge Forrest handed down a sentence even more draconian than prosecutors had sought and made a point of condemning Ulbricht’s political views. “In the world you created over time, democracy didn’t exist,” she said. “Silk Road’s birth and presence asserted that its…creator was better than the laws of this country. This is deeply troubling, terribly misguided, and very dangerous.”

Whatever you think of Ulbricht or Silk Road, you can see why libertarians might be upset. A federal judge has just made the belief that it’s good for people to have “the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit” part of her justification for the most punitive sentence short of the death penalty. Her rationale offends libertarians on two grounds: It punishes political views and it punishes their particular political views.

The Reason commenters expressed heartbreak and rage. “Damn, it's painful to read that letter. A life sentence for providing a platform for people to do what they do regardless -- just making it easier,” Lady Bertrum wrote in the first response. “The rightness of his worldview bumping up against his naivety and arrogance is awful.”

Unfortunately, such ladylike responses aren’t typical of Reason commenters, who often sound like drunk teenage boys trying to one-up each other. They tend to forget that their online pals aren't the only ones reading what they say. In his post, White described Reason as a "leading libertarian website whose clever writing is eclipsed only by the blowhard stupidity of its commenting peanut gallery." Puerile they undoubtedly are, but Reason commenters are also harmless (unless you care about reasoned political discourse or the image of libertarians).

In this case, they were furious and, in their fury, some of them got nasty. “Its judges like these that should be taken out back and shot,” wrote Agammamon. “Why waste ammunition? Wood chippers get the message across clearly. Especially if you feed them in feet first,” responded croaker. “I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman,” commented Rhywun. “I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well,” chimed in ProductPlacement. (Reason has since removed the offending comments.)

No one in their right mind would take this hyperbolic venting seriously as threatening Judge Forrest, who back in the fall had personal information published on an underground site, along with talk of stealing her identity or calling in tips to send SWAT teams to her house. The Reason commenters, by contrast, included nothing so specific.

As White notes in his post, which offers a detailed legal analysis of the situation, the comments “do not specify who is going to use violence, or when. They do not offer a plan, other than juvenile mouth-breathing about ‘wood chippers’ and revolutionary firing squads. They do not contain any indication that any of the mouthy commenters has the ability to carry out a threat. Nobody in the thread reacts to them as if they are serious.” Nobody even assumes the judge will see their comments. Why would she?

Venting anger about injustice is not a crime. Neither is being obnoxious on the Internet. The chances of one of these commenters being convicted of threatening the judge are essentially nil. Conviction isn’t the point. Crying “threats” just makes a handy pretext for harassing Reason and its commenters.

The real threats aren’t coming from the likes of Agammamon and croaker. They’re coming from civil servants in suits. Subpoenaing Reason’s website records, wasting its staff’s time and forcing it to pay legal fees in hopes of imposing even larger legal costs and possibly even a plea bargain (or two on the average Joes who dared to voice their dissident views in angry tones ) sends an intimidating message: It’s dangerous not just to create something like Silk Road. It’s dangerous to defend it, and even more dangerous to attack those who would punish its creator. You may think you have free speech, but we’ll find a way to make you pay.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-09/reason-magazine-subpoena-stomps-on-free-speech
Was going to post this earlier, given my previous citations both to commenters over at reason in the gay marriage/pizza thread and the numerous times I've mentioned the true threat doctrine in these very threads.

Interesting development. Virginia Postrel did found that site, and does indeed tend to dislike the level of commentary from its comment section (I disagree; I think you have to really get involved in the comment section to understand that its messiness and vulgarity can obscure its level of thought and humor. It's like being here every day and getting some of the in-jokes, acceptable misspellings, PM'ing shuke, etc. Except over there it hinges on a good deal of vulgarity and verbal brutality. Tastes vary, IMO.)

Regardless, I've found the whole thing interesting. Reason commenters have been in hot water before, IIRC. There was a lawsuit and discovery directed at the commentariat about allegations of a certain litigious (patent?) lawyer and certain alleged acts he was said to have committed with porcine-like beings.

But more broadly, this does seem to be an attempt at chilling speech. It's either that or less sinister; it's arrogance on the part of the judge. Either way, I -- and others -- have a hard time believing these statements constitute actual threats. I was heartened that Postrel, Popehat, and Ilya Somin all seem to think this discovery and subpoena request is indeed aimed at chilling speech, no matter how offensive or juvenile that speech is.
Is the site itself talking about what's going on?

I hope they oppose the subpoena in court, they can, they don't have to comply forthwith.

Personally the comments sound like the basic :rant: of any old forum, blog or message board. (Albeit maybe some in-site modding wouldn't hurt).

Damn right it's chilling.

 
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Reason Magazine Subpoena Stomps on Free SpeechWielding subpoenas demanding information on anonymous commenters, the government is harassing a respected journalism site that dissents from its policies. The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York claims these comments could constitute violent threats, even though they’re clearly hyperbolic political rhetoric.

This is happening in America -- weirdly, to a site I founded, and one whose commenters often earned my public contempt.

Los Angeles legal blogger Ken White has obtained a grand jury subpoena issued to Reason.com, the online home of the libertarian magazine I edited throughout the 1990s. The subpoena seeks information about commenters who posted in response to an article by the site’s editor Nick Gillespie about the letter that Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht wrote to Judge Katherine B. Forrest before she sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Ulbricht was convicted of seven felony charges, included conspiracies to traffic in narcotics and launder money, and faced a minimum sentence of 20 years in prison. The letter was an appeal for leniency.

Gillespie, who declined to comment on the subpoena, aptly described the letter as “haunting.” In it, Ulbricht expressed the libertarian ideals he said animated his creation of Silk Road -- the same ideals that Reason upholds. The portion Gillespie reproduced reads:

The letter depicts Silk Road as an attempt to bring libertarian ideals into the real world -- a virtual version of the seasteading schemes for new countries, hopelessly naive, perhaps, but certainly not evil in its intentions.

I created Silk Road because I thought the idea for the website itself had value, and that bringing Silk Road into being was the right thing to do. I believed at the time that people should have the right to buy and sell whatever they wanted so long as they weren’t hurting anyone else. However, I’ve learned since then that taking immediate actions on one’s beliefs, without taking the necessary time to really think them through, can have disastrous consequences. Silk Road turned out to be a very naive and costly idea that I deeply regret.

Silk Road was supposed to be about giving people the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit. What it turned into was, in part, a convenient way for people to satisfy their drug addictions. I do not and never have advocated the abuse of drugs. I learned from Silk Road that when you give people freedom, you don’t know what they’ll do with it. While I still don’t think people should be denied the right to make this decision for themselves, I never sought to create a site that would provide another avenue for people to feed their addictions. Had I been more mature, or more patient, or even more worldly then, I would have done things differently.

Judge Forrest handed down a sentence even more draconian than prosecutors had sought and made a point of condemning Ulbricht’s political views. “In the world you created over time, democracy didn’t exist,” she said. “Silk Road’s birth and presence asserted that its…creator was better than the laws of this country. This is deeply troubling, terribly misguided, and very dangerous.”

Whatever you think of Ulbricht or Silk Road, you can see why libertarians might be upset. A federal judge has just made the belief that it’s good for people to have “the freedom to make their own choices, to pursue their own happiness, however they individually saw fit” part of her justification for the most punitive sentence short of the death penalty. Her rationale offends libertarians on two grounds: It punishes political views and it punishes their particular political views.

The Reason commenters expressed heartbreak and rage. “Damn, it's painful to read that letter. A life sentence for providing a platform for people to do what they do regardless -- just making it easier,” Lady Bertrum wrote in the first response. “The rightness of his worldview bumping up against his naivety and arrogance is awful.”

Unfortunately, such ladylike responses aren’t typical of Reason commenters, who often sound like drunk teenage boys trying to one-up each other. They tend to forget that their online pals aren't the only ones reading what they say. In his post, White described Reason as a "leading libertarian website whose clever writing is eclipsed only by the blowhard stupidity of its commenting peanut gallery." Puerile they undoubtedly are, but Reason commenters are also harmless (unless you care about reasoned political discourse or the image of libertarians).

In this case, they were furious and, in their fury, some of them got nasty. “Its judges like these that should be taken out back and shot,” wrote Agammamon. “Why waste ammunition? Wood chippers get the message across clearly. Especially if you feed them in feet first,” responded croaker. “I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman,” commented Rhywun. “I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well,” chimed in ProductPlacement. (Reason has since removed the offending comments.)

No one in their right mind would take this hyperbolic venting seriously as threatening Judge Forrest, who back in the fall had personal information published on an underground site, along with talk of stealing her identity or calling in tips to send SWAT teams to her house. The Reason commenters, by contrast, included nothing so specific.

As White notes in his post, which offers a detailed legal analysis of the situation, the comments “do not specify who is going to use violence, or when. They do not offer a plan, other than juvenile mouth-breathing about ‘wood chippers’ and revolutionary firing squads. They do not contain any indication that any of the mouthy commenters has the ability to carry out a threat. Nobody in the thread reacts to them as if they are serious.” Nobody even assumes the judge will see their comments. Why would she?

Venting anger about injustice is not a crime. Neither is being obnoxious on the Internet. The chances of one of these commenters being convicted of threatening the judge are essentially nil. Conviction isn’t the point. Crying “threats” just makes a handy pretext for harassing Reason and its commenters.

The real threats aren’t coming from the likes of Agammamon and croaker. They’re coming from civil servants in suits. Subpoenaing Reason’s website records, wasting its staff’s time and forcing it to pay legal fees in hopes of imposing even larger legal costs and possibly even a plea bargain (or two on the average Joes who dared to voice their dissident views in angry tones ) sends an intimidating message: It’s dangerous not just to create something like Silk Road. It’s dangerous to defend it, and even more dangerous to attack those who would punish its creator. You may think you have free speech, but we’ll find a way to make you pay.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-09/reason-magazine-subpoena-stomps-on-free-speech
Was going to post this earlier, given my previous citations both to commenters over at reason in the gay marriage/pizza thread and the numerous times I've mentioned the true threat doctrine in these very threads.

Interesting development. Virginia Postrel did found that site, and does indeed tend to dislike the level of commentary from its comment section (I disagree; I think you have to really get involved in the comment section to understand that its messiness and vulgarity can obscure its level of thought and humor. It's like being here every day and getting some of the in-jokes, acceptable misspellings, PM'ing shuke, etc. Except over there it hinges on a good deal of vulgarity and verbal brutality. Tastes vary, IMO.)

Regardless, I've found the whole thing interesting. Reason commenters have been in hot water before, IIRC. There was a lawsuit and discovery directed at the commentariat about allegations of a certain litigious (patent?) lawyer and certain alleged acts he was said to have committed with porcine-like beings.

But more broadly, this does seem to be an attempt at chilling speech. It's either that or less sinister; it's arrogance on the part of the judge. Either way, I -- and others -- have a hard time believing these statements constitute actual threats. I was heartened that Postrel, Popehat, and Ilya Somin all seem to think this discovery and subpoena request is indeed aimed at chilling speech, no matter how offensive or juvenile that speech is.
Is the site itself talking about what's going on?

I hope they oppose the subpoena in court, they can, they don't have to comply forthwith.

Personally the comments sound like the basic :rant: of any old forum, blog or message board. (Albeit maybe some in-site modding wouldn't hurt).

Damn right it's chilling.
The site, which was once completely unmoderated -- not even registration was necessary, and that was a big step over there with a lot of debate -- for intellectual reasons (one assumes) has talked about what is going on. They actually asked the commenters not to discuss the matter in the comment section, which has turned out rather as expected.

One thing that impressed me about reason is that last time somebody threatened to come after their commenters, reason stuck up for them and fought it tooth and nail.

I suppose they will do the same thing this time, though I'm not sure that the commenters are helping by taking out aliases like "Military Grade Woodchipper," constantly referencing the judge and others, noting the time that reason asked them to stop commenting about the matter in an obviously ironic gesture, etc.

It's funny to me, but I can see where the staff must be just a little put off. I think they had to show up in court either today or yesterday to fight the subpoena. I really haven't been following it like I once would have. I spend way more time over here, and I consider myself more of an FFA/Shark Pool guy these days than a reason commenter (if I had to choose a message board, which would be silly), so I'm an outsider who still occasionally reads the comments and articles and knows some of the handles from this story just by memory, if not content (I can't judge whether the comments are typical/atypical, etc). Regardless, I'll be over there and post in here when anything of significance regarding the actual case and speech implications happen.

 
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Another thing to note is that reason and reason.com have long, long praised the virtues of anonymous speech not only as an important political tool, but also a necessary one. In reason's world -- and to a degree, I agree with its worldview -- government often looks for ways to oppress speech when speech is completely contra its desired ends, and therefore, anonymous speech becomes crucial because the apparatus of power is entrusted to men and women (men and women who might be vehemently criticized for, say, sentencing somebody above and beyond a recommended sentence when that sentence involves lifetimes in prison for non-violent acts) who might indeed be fallible and might indeed have to be criticized or have misdeeds brought to light for justice to be served. I would expect them, therefore, to fight any attempt to unearth the names of their commenters.

 
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Another thing to note is that reason and reason.com have long, long praised the virtues of anonymous speech not only as an important political tool, but also a necessary one. In reason's world -- and to a degree, I agree with its worldview -- government often looks for ways to oppress speech when speech is completely contra its desired ends, and therefore, anonymous speech becomes crucial because the apparatus of power is entrusted to men and women (men and women who might be vehemently criticized for, say, sentencing somebody above and beyond a recommended sentence when that sentence involves lifetimes in prison for non-violent acts) who might indeed be fallible and might indeed have to be criticized or have misdeeds brought to light for justice to be served. I would expect them, therefore, to fight any attempt to unearth the names of their commenters.
Sounds like it, and thanks for the updates.

I wholeheartedly agree with all those sentiments btw. It's dispiriting how people sometimes view the 1st Amendment these days.

 
That's amazing and horrible. I almost hope there's something there for the feds because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

 
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This is why libertarians oppose the NSA, to cite one specific example.

They understand that this agency exists primarily to spy on American civilians, not to thwart foreign terrorists.

 
That's amazing and horrible. I almost hope there's something there for the feds because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
One really, at this point, hopes that they have dirt on the guys that were releasing her address in the deep web and that these are the same guys. Otherwise, I don't get it, and it is serious. It's shutting down a journalistic institution from commenting on legal troubles that relate to it, especially considering those troubles are regarding anonymous (and free) speech.

This is why libertarians oppose the NSA, to cite one specific example.

They understand that this agency exists primarily to spy on American civilians, not to thwart foreign terrorists.
Ken White doesn't draw that analogy, but I get what you're getting after. Using the subpoena and gag order in this instance is a gross violation of the original intent of why the institutions and processes behind each of those were created. One might argue, as I assume you might (please correct me if I put words in your mouth that you don't agree with), that the government will necessarily abuse the powers granted to it to protect itself or its interests from a nebulous class of "people," or one might argue that government, using its authority, oversteps its bounds in this particular case. Either way, it looks like an abuse of power that is neither in the spirit nor the explicit grant given by the people to its agents. It's simply been usurped in this instance.

 
After I posted yesterday, Matt Welch and Nick Gillespie explained reason's position in an article posted to Hit and Run. They were indeed barred by a gag order.

It went something like this...not sure what to make of it, but I'm posting this as an update for those that are interested.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/19/government-stifles-speech
Thanks for the update. This whole story gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I'm glad the order has been lifted.

One thing to note, the piece suggests that such subpoenas cannot reasonably be resisted by the site in the face of a GJ investigation. I don't think that's true. Reason takes the position that they contacted the commenters and allowed them the option of resisting the subpoena, but that rather defeats the purpose and waives all rights because after all they would have to appear in name before the court to do that. I think Reason should have fought this one out in court.

 
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After I posted yesterday, Matt Welch and Nick Gillespie explained reason's position in an article posted to Hit and Run. They were indeed barred by a gag order.

It went something like this...not sure what to make of it, but I'm posting this as an update for those that are interested.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/19/government-stifles-speech
Thanks for the update. This whole story gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I'm glad the order has been lifted.

One thing to note, the piece suggests that such subpoenas cannot reasonably be resisted by the site in the face of a GJ investigation. I don't think that's true. Reason takes the position that they contacted the commenters and allowed them the option of resisting the subpoena, but that rather defeats the purpose and waives all rights because after all they would have to appear in name before the court to do that. I think Reason should have fought this one out in court.
I wondered about that. My first impression was that they didn't fight as much as I would have expected, but they did all that they reasonably could under the law. I can't speak for them, nor do I perfectly know the processes or the precedents to do so. I can say that it seems that at least most of the commenters seem to think that they fought enough. There are 1196 comments, and I'm not wading through it. Seems like the stalwarts at the site were satisfied with the response.

Anyway, I'd love this thread to turn into other free speech stuff, hopefully of any nature, and welcome all comments and posts in furtherance of that. The Silencing thread is probably the place to discuss things like micro-aggressions and mob decisions about speech; maybe this can be the technical/legal place.

 
Shock European court decision: Websites are liable for users’ comments The ruling is likely to be influential on EU courts' thinking in future.In a surprise decision, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in Strasbourg has ruled that the Estonian news site Delfi may be held responsible for anonymous and allegedly defamatory comments from its readers. As the digital rights organization Access notes, this goes against the European Union’s e-commerce directive, which "guarantees liability protection for intermediaries that implement notice-and-takedown mechanisms on third-party comments." As such, Peter Micek, Senior Policy Counsel at Access, says the ECHR judgment has "dramatically shifted the internet away from the free expression and privacy protections that created the internet as we know it."

A post from the Media Legal Defence Initiative summarizes the reasons why the court came to this unexpected decision. The ECHR cited "the 'extreme' nature of the comments which the court considered to amount to hate speech, the fact that they were published on a professionally-run and commercial news website," as well as the "insufficient measures taken by Delfi to weed out the comments in question and the low likelihood of a prosecution of the users who posted the comments," and the moderate sanction imposed on Delfi.

In the wake of this judgment, the legal situation is complicated. In an e-mail to Ars, T J McIntyre, who is a lecturer in law and Chairman of Digital Rights Ireland, the lead organization that won an important victory against EU data retention in the Court of Justice of the European Union last year, explained where things now stand. "Today's decision doesn't have any direct legal effect. It simply finds that Estonia's laws on site liability aren't incompatible with the ECHR. It doesn't directly require any change in national or EU law. Indirectly, however, it may be influential in further development of the law in a way which undermines freedom of expression. As a decision of the Grand Chamber of the ECHR it will be given weight by other courts and by legislative bodies."

Manifestly unlawfulOne of the worrying aspects of the ECHR decision is that it may encourage the idea that intermediaries are liable for "manifestly unlawful" content, without specifying what "manifestly unlawful" actually means. McIntyre points out that this is "something which may lead to a chilling effect where sites are over cautious in taking down material which might possibly be contentious."

As McIntyre notes, also troubling is that the judgment upholds a finding that "proactive monitoring" of Internet users can be required. That contradicts the important decision in the SABAM case of 2012, where the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruled that forcing a hosting service to monitor and filter online content violated EU law. Copyright companies will doubtless try to use the Delfi decision to undermine that key CJEU judgement.

What's unfortunate is that Delfi would probably have won had it taken its case to the CJEU, given the e-commerce directive's clear guidelines, but this course of action was apparently not permitted by the Estonian courts. It therefore went to the ECHR, hoping for a ruling that the Estonian law was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

As Access's Micek told Ars: "The website argued that its 'freedom to impart information created and published by third parties'—the commenters—was at stake. Delfi invoked its Article 10 rights to freedom of expression under the European Convention on Human Rights and the [ECHR] accepted the case." Delfi's unexpected defeat there is likely to have important, if subtle consequences on not just the Web, but also freedom of speech and privacy, across the European Union.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/shock-european-court-decision-websites-are-liable-for-users-comments-2/

 
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Whoa. Nice post, SID. Thanks. I think EU free speech would be a fascinating topic. I wonder if there is a comparative free speech/First Amendment class I could take in the near future at a state university. That would be a cool use of time.

 
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