krista4
Footballguy
I think this is the first pick you've made that hasn't sniped me.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Official Great Works Draft (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Abrantes
Footballguy
One out of seventeen. Plenty more in store, don't worry.I think this is the first pick you've made that hasn't sniped me.
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
That's one of the lesser kind of tie breaking criteria. There are a ton of decent to good actors who play one or two different personalities in every movie. The characters might be great and are still eminently draftable but when I have to break them down into 3 person tiers, the actor exhibiting less range is probably going to get downgraded to fit the judging tier. Someone said that Bernigni or whatever his name is was the same on and off camera, so how much of his performance was acting and how much was it him being himself? Doesn't mean it wasnt a great performance, but I have to downgrade on something! There are even parts out there that make Keaunu Reeve's limited personality perfect for the part. I don't care if it's spotlighting or not since no Reeves' role will get more than a 2 even if it's one of the few that are tailored to him.You can apply this rule to comedians doing drama, serious actors doing comedy etc... Basically if I find the performances equal, the person showing more range is probably going to get the better of it.
Doug B
Footballguy
If tim is amenable, I will throw Miracle on Ice broadcast back in the pool.FWIW, I'd be willing to let the two sporting events selectors re-choose if they wanted, since the category was ill-defined and has now been refined differently than they expected. We offered that option in buildings/structures when that controversy arose as well.
timschochet
Footballguy
Just got back in, and I will make my picks shortly, but I wanted to comment on the television question again.
I have already stated my views on the SB, and why I think it should be ranked highly. (Actually, the more I thought about it, the more I think there is one television show which stands even higher in terms of both influence and artistic quality, and I am about to draft it.) Basically, unlike Bobby Layne, I believe that influence and popularity should be weighed as an important factor- not the only factor, certainly, but these items do have value.
That being said, I don't regard the Miracle On Ice television broadcast to be particularly great or influential. The event itself was, certainly, but not the televising of it. It's an acceptable draft pick, there is no reason not to allow it. But I would not personally rank it very high.
TV pick coming.
I have already stated my views on the SB, and why I think it should be ranked highly. (Actually, the more I thought about it, the more I think there is one television show which stands even higher in terms of both influence and artistic quality, and I am about to draft it.) Basically, unlike Bobby Layne, I believe that influence and popularity should be weighed as an important factor- not the only factor, certainly, but these items do have value.
That being said, I don't regard the Miracle On Ice television broadcast to be particularly great or influential. The event itself was, certainly, but not the televising of it. It's an acceptable draft pick, there is no reason not to allow it. But I would not personally rank it very high.
TV pick coming.
timschochet
Footballguy
No Doug, I disagree. There is no reason to disallow either pick, IMO. Since you're for this, it's up to Krista. If she overrules me, then I will have been outvoted and we will remove both selections. But in that event I don't know what the criteria should be for television, and I'd rather not go that route. If it's up to me, you're stuck with this pick.If tim is amenable, I will throw Miracle on Ice broadcast back in the pool.FWIW, I'd be willing to let the two sporting events selectors re-choose if they wanted, since the category was ill-defined and has now been refined differently than they expected. We offered that option in buildings/structures when that controversy arose as well.
Bonzai
Footballguy
Never gets old.
Abrantes
Footballguy
I don't believe BobbyLayne ever said that influence shouldn't be given proper credit. However, I can't see what sort of influence the Super Bowl broadcast has exerted in the field of television outside of its own bubble. Also, standing "even higher" than the SB in influence and artistic quality isn't a tall order, Tim.
Last edited by a moderator:
jmp
Footballguy
Another favorite of mine. Amazing run of songs here.
timschochet
Footballguy
In my opinion, the television program I am about to select makes a great argument for #1 in it's category, for two reasons:
First, because even more than the Superbowl, it is arguably the most influential television program ever, because it changed permanently American and world perceptions about African-Americans. It's hard to recall that before it's broadcast, the most vivid portrayal of slavery was that of a certain romantic film that won Best Picture in 1939, depicting Blacks as happy and secure in their surroundings. The truth about the Middle Passage, the capture of Slaves, whipping and mistreatments, selling members of families away from each other- none of this was exposed to the American public. Also, until this program, Blacks were rarely allowed to perform in any roles other than caricatures or comedies. It would take too long here to discuss how even a fine actor like Sidney Portier was forced into various stereotypes in the 1960's and early 1970's- all of this changed because of this television program. Afterwards, American culture was never the same, and how society viewed African-Americans was never the same.
The second reason is that the program was superlative. The script by Alex Haley was phenomenal, as was the directing. The actors were magnificent, especially Levar Burton, John Amos, Madge Sinclair, Chuck Connors, Ben Vereen, Lou Gossett, dozens of others, and for me most memorable of all Sandy Duncan in her finest role as the villainous Anne. Everything about this show was superb, including the music. It also set the standard for dozens of other programs that would follow.
16.17 Roots (Television Miniseries)
First, because even more than the Superbowl, it is arguably the most influential television program ever, because it changed permanently American and world perceptions about African-Americans. It's hard to recall that before it's broadcast, the most vivid portrayal of slavery was that of a certain romantic film that won Best Picture in 1939, depicting Blacks as happy and secure in their surroundings. The truth about the Middle Passage, the capture of Slaves, whipping and mistreatments, selling members of families away from each other- none of this was exposed to the American public. Also, until this program, Blacks were rarely allowed to perform in any roles other than caricatures or comedies. It would take too long here to discuss how even a fine actor like Sidney Portier was forced into various stereotypes in the 1960's and early 1970's- all of this changed because of this television program. Afterwards, American culture was never the same, and how society viewed African-Americans was never the same.
The second reason is that the program was superlative. The script by Alex Haley was phenomenal, as was the directing. The actors were magnificent, especially Levar Burton, John Amos, Madge Sinclair, Chuck Connors, Ben Vereen, Lou Gossett, dozens of others, and for me most memorable of all Sandy Duncan in her finest role as the villainous Anne. Everything about this show was superb, including the music. It also set the standard for dozens of other programs that would follow.
16.17 Roots (Television Miniseries)
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
judge Krista, did you like my movie pix?
Bonzai
Footballguy
Tell me about it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Picking a documentary was difficult for me, because there are so many I really like. In the end, I decided to go with a personal favorite, before someone else snipes it:
17.04 Crumb
This 1995 film is the story of R. Crumb, underground comic artist of "Keep on Truckin'" and "Fritz The Cat" fame. But it is also a psychological study of Crumb's disturbing family, and how he alone managed to escape mental disorder and ultimate tragedy. Funny, thoughtful, and extremely disturbing, this small movie is my favorite documentary film of al time.
17.04 Crumb
This 1995 film is the story of R. Crumb, underground comic artist of "Keep on Truckin'" and "Fritz The Cat" fame. But it is also a psychological study of Crumb's disturbing family, and how he alone managed to escape mental disorder and ultimate tragedy. Funny, thoughtful, and extremely disturbing, this small movie is my favorite documentary film of al time.
Doug B
Footballguy
Use of scripts a sine non qua?
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
****
Abrantes
Footballguy
Great pick. Way to bounce back from the silliness of the Super Bowl debacle.
Crumb is a supremely odd, fascinating person.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
tim I know you are doing it on purpose to annoy me but on the first page, Federalist Papers should be non-fiction, and The Bill of Rights is my political document.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
It was high on my list as well.
timschochet
Footballguy
Wasn't on purpose. I will correct.
krista4
Footballguy
I'm not supposed to make much comment. I like one of them significantly better than the other, though.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, Krista has spoken, and I am outvoted. If you guys that picked the sports selections want to repick, you may do so at any time. Until you do, those selections stay.Krista, does your comment mean you don't like Crumb
?
El Floppo
Footballguy
I don't buy the explanation here.Yes, it's an astonishing production- technically. In terms of sport in US culture, clearly nothing touches it's impact- the country pretty much shuts down for the evening. And there's a "world" championship (
) at stake, giving the coverage of said event that much more oomph. But are we really judging the commercials that the SB attracts as part of the show? I would say no- ad agencies are producing those spots, not the SB prodcution team.So- IMHO, the only thing worthy of judging the SB as a TV show is the actual coverage of the game (very well done typically) and coverage of the half-time show. As such, I don't see much here that elevates this game that much past a common, every sunday football game (although the Boss's sliding crotch shot was :money: ). Other than Janet Jackson's mishap, is there a SB TV show that anybody here even remembers?As an event, it's huge. As TV, it's meh. I've heard nothing to dissuade me from thinking that.eta: but fantastic pick with Roots, Tim.
Last edited by a moderator:
krista4
Footballguy
Not at all. In keeping with discussions in the WGD, though, I'm trying not to comment much on specific selections. It's a fascinating documentary.OK, Krista has spoken, and I am outvoted. If you guys that picked the sports selections want to repick, you may do so at any time. Until you do, those selections stay.Krista, does your comment mean you don't like Crumb?
Doug B
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
A scene from Crumb
El Floppo
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Excellent pick!! I withheld comment on Lonesome Dove not being the first miniseries that should've been taken. I agree that it has a very strong claim to the top spot.I work with LeVar on occasion, he directs now. Mostly commercials though years ago I did The Tiger Woods story with him. He's one of my favorite people to work with. Energetic, friendly, efficient, and pretty darn good at his job. On the movie he would get the crowd of extras lined up against the ropes of the fairways going by running up and down the line cheering them on, waving his arms and pumping them up then breathlessly running into the monitor tent to yell "Action please!". On commercials, he's the funnest thing to watch because after his "Action Please" (only person I've EVER heard say please) he watches the monitors intently with a smile creeping onto his face until by the end of the take he's in an ear to ear smile.
His license plate for whatever brand new Mercedes he's driving (commercial directors make bank) is always "####E", which he says has gotten him into more than one parking lot discussion with a woman who is wrongfully offended by it...
Some historical perspective on Roots.
Roots was made into a hugely popular television miniseries that aired over eight consecutive nights in January 1977. Many people partially attribute the success of the miniseries to the original score by Quincy Jones. ABC network television executives chose to "dump" the series into a string of airings rather than space out the broadcasts, because they were uncertain how the public would respond to the controversial, racially-charged themes of the show. However, the series garnered enormous ratings and became an overnight sensation. Approximately 130 million Americans tuned in at some time during the eight broadcasts. The concluding episode on January 30, 1977 has been ranked as the third most watched telecast of all time by the Nielsen corporation.
It also must be remembered that in 1977 there were three TV networks and essentially no cable TV. There certainly was no ESPN or Fox or Discovery or whathaveyou of the cable universe. Sports wasn't on every night of the week. IIRC, it was also a week of very bad weather, cold and snow, in the East, and once the word of mouth hype got started for Roots, it really took of in the later parts of the week.
Finally, it must be said that OJ Simpson played the part of ####a Kinte's father in Africa and held the baby ####a up to the stars telling him that only the stars were greater than he.
Roots was made into a hugely popular television miniseries that aired over eight consecutive nights in January 1977. Many people partially attribute the success of the miniseries to the original score by Quincy Jones. ABC network television executives chose to "dump" the series into a string of airings rather than space out the broadcasts, because they were uncertain how the public would respond to the controversial, racially-charged themes of the show. However, the series garnered enormous ratings and became an overnight sensation. Approximately 130 million Americans tuned in at some time during the eight broadcasts. The concluding episode on January 30, 1977 has been ranked as the third most watched telecast of all time by the Nielsen corporation.
It also must be remembered that in 1977 there were three TV networks and essentially no cable TV. There certainly was no ESPN or Fox or Discovery or whathaveyou of the cable universe. Sports wasn't on every night of the week. IIRC, it was also a week of very bad weather, cold and snow, in the East, and once the word of mouth hype got started for Roots, it really took of in the later parts of the week.
Finally, it must be said that OJ Simpson played the part of ####a Kinte's father in Africa and held the baby ####a up to the stars telling him that only the stars were greater than he.
thatguy
Footballguy
So, no one commented on my pick of the Basilica of St. Denise. Just curious to hear some thoughts. I thought it was a pretty solid pick given that it gave birth to the gothic style of architecture? Does it compare to some of the other great gothic designs? Probably not. But we would likely not have them if we didn't first have Basilica of St. Denis.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Over the course of time the commercials have become synonymous with the SB. They're different every year but it's aprt of the TV phenmenon that the SB has become. I think restricting "The SuperBowl" to simply game coverage is ignoring a large part of what makes the SB so watched across the world.I don't buy the explanation here.Yes, it's an astonishing production- technically. In terms of sport in US culture, clearly nothing touches it's impact- the country pretty much shuts down for the evening. And there's a "world" championship (
El Floppo
Footballguy
I'm holding off until the category is finished.I'm guessing not many people can think of it from memory, so is not generating much discussion. Also, we've gotten into the meat of popular culture, so some of these "weightier" cats are going to get short shrift on the talk side of things.
Does he make more money by directing commercials or from residuals of TNG reruns in syndication?
flysack
Footballguy
With the 7th pick in the 17th round, Team BobbyLayne™ takes -
The Nibelungenlied, author unknown - Poem.
This medieval epic is the German National Epic. As such, its influence is enormous. Teddy Roosevelt cited it as his favorite poem. One of its heroes, "Siegfried" was recently named the 7th most influential fictional person in history (by the USA Today). Numerous adaptations have been made (listed below), chief among them being works by Wagner.
It has been called the German Illiad for a number of reasons, chief among them is that, like other National Epics, it takes pains to reach back to quasi-mythical times in order to establish the origins for a national character, much like the Illiad, the Aeneid, and the various Arthurian tales.
It's an incredible story for a number of reasons, but on a pure narrative level, it remains remarkable because its hero dies halfway through the story. Think about that. How many epic "YO HO!" stories do you know where the main hero gets whacked halfway through the story? Some get it in the end and it's incredibly tragic. Achilles gets his comeupins, sure, but not until the end. However, Siegfried is whacked in the middle of the story after The Nibelungenlied goes to great pains to show how much of a total badass he is. Then his murderer, Hagan, essentially takes over the narrative! It becomes his story for a lengthy amount of time - as if by assassinating the hero, he also hijacked the story itself and the poet is forced to show how amazing Hagan is. As a reader, you tend to forget about Siegfried and his poor widow until much later in the poem, when Siegfried's widow shows back up to get her revenge by setting a trap for Hagan (she marries a fictional stand-in for Attila the Hun, who promptly helps her whack Hagan and all his men).
According the wikipedia, modern adaptations include –
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
The Nibelungenlied, author unknown - Poem.
This medieval epic is the German National Epic. As such, its influence is enormous. Teddy Roosevelt cited it as his favorite poem. One of its heroes, "Siegfried" was recently named the 7th most influential fictional person in history (by the USA Today). Numerous adaptations have been made (listed below), chief among them being works by Wagner.
It has been called the German Illiad for a number of reasons, chief among them is that, like other National Epics, it takes pains to reach back to quasi-mythical times in order to establish the origins for a national character, much like the Illiad, the Aeneid, and the various Arthurian tales.
It's an incredible story for a number of reasons, but on a pure narrative level, it remains remarkable because its hero dies halfway through the story. Think about that. How many epic "YO HO!" stories do you know where the main hero gets whacked halfway through the story? Some get it in the end and it's incredibly tragic. Achilles gets his comeupins, sure, but not until the end. However, Siegfried is whacked in the middle of the story after The Nibelungenlied goes to great pains to show how much of a total badass he is. Then his murderer, Hagan, essentially takes over the narrative! It becomes his story for a lengthy amount of time - as if by assassinating the hero, he also hijacked the story itself and the poet is forced to show how amazing Hagan is. As a reader, you tend to forget about Siegfried and his poor widow until much later in the poem, when Siegfried's widow shows back up to get her revenge by setting a trap for Hagan (she marries a fictional stand-in for Attila the Hun, who promptly helps her whack Hagan and all his men).
According the wikipedia, modern adaptations include –
I believe the last adaptation pushes this poem into the category’s Top 3, minimum. *ahem* Feel free to sing along with me -
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
El Floppo
Footballguy
I get the argument, just respectfully disagree in terms of how I would judge the TV category.Over the course of time the commercials have become synonymous with the SB. They're different every year but it's aprt of the TV phenmenon that the SB has become. I think restricting "The SuperBowl" to simply game coverage is ignoring a large part of what makes the SB so watched across the world.I don't buy the explanation here.Yes, it's an astonishing production- technically. In terms of sport in US culture, clearly nothing touches it's impact- the country pretty much shuts down for the evening. And there's a "world" championship (
Abrantes
Footballguy
With the 7th pick in the 17th round, Team BobbyLayne™ takes -
The Nibelungenlied, author unknown - Poem.
This medieval epic is the German National Epic. As such, its influence is enormous. Teddy Roosevelt cited it as his favorite poem. One of its heroes, "Siegfried" was recently named the 7th most influential fictional person in history (by the USA Today). Numerous adaptations have been made (listed below), chief among them being works by Wagner.
It has been called the German Illiad for a number of reasons, chief among them is that, like other National Epics, it takes pains to reach back to quasi-mythical times in order to establish the origins for a national character, much like the Illiad, the Aeneid, and the various Arthurian tales.
It's an incredible story for a number of reasons, but on a pure narrative level, it remains remarkable because its hero dies halfway through the story. Think about that. How many epic "YO HO!" stories do you know where the main hero gets whacked halfway through the story? Some get it in the end and it's incredibly tragic. Achilles gets his comeupins, sure, but not until the end. However, Siegfried is whacked in the middle of the story after The Nibelungenlied goes to great pains to show how much of a total badass he is. Then his murderer, Hagan, essentially takes over the narrative! It becomes his story for a lengthy amount of time - as if by assassinating the hero, he also hijacked the story itself and the poet is forced to show how amazing Hagan is. As a reader, you tend to forget about Siegfried and his poor widow until much later in the poem, when Siegfried's widow shows back up to get her revenge by setting a trap for Hagan (she marries a fictional stand-in for Attila the Hun, who promptly helps her whack Hagan and all his men).
According the wikipedia, modern adaptations include –
I believe the last adaptation pushes this poem into the category’s Top 3, minimum. *ahem* Feel free to sing along with me -
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
“KILL THE WABBIT!@#”
Huge fan. P. Craig Russell's extensive graphic novel adaptation is also one of my favorite works ever in the comic book medium.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Interesting side-story there-
I remember this as the only TV show that was required viewing in my school. IIRC, we had discussions in class after every episode... eye opening stuff to say the least.Go, OJ, go!
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Certainly his residuals are a good chunk of change and depending on whether he was a producer on the show as well, who knows how much. But simply directing commercials is an extremely lucrative deal. I don't know what the rates are specifically but for the ones I've done with him I'd be surprised if he made less than 50 or 60K for the week.
TidesofWar
Footballguy
More Super Bowl Thoughts
I think there is a difference between a "Show" and an Event
The Super Bowl is a once a year event, a Broadcast, which to me is easier to pull off than having to do it on a weekly basis like scripted television.
Sure, some folks watch just for the ads - but the heart of the thing is the game, and that is totally out of anyone's control. I think considering the commercials as part of the show is a bit of a stretch, as they will sell air time to anyone willing to pay and operate in FCC guidelines.
Yankee 23 Fan could buy minute and just hype his draft, if he chose to.
Plus, much or most of the pre-game is bad television, pablum for the National Enquirer readers. I care not what Coolio thinks will happen in the game, or Deion filming a documentary of the Maxim party, and the like.
It is a mediocre broadcast of a generally mediocre game that is split upon a contrived and usually mediocre halftime performance. I just do not see it as a quality work, based on the broadcast alone.
I do not think I have ever left a Super Bowl broadcast feeling enriched or better, or even truly entertained in many cases. To me, the Super Bowl is the Paris Hilton of TV events - famous for sure, but despite a lack of substance.
Americans are just looking for a reason to party in mid-winter
I think there is a difference between a "Show" and an Event
The Super Bowl is a once a year event, a Broadcast, which to me is easier to pull off than having to do it on a weekly basis like scripted television.
Sure, some folks watch just for the ads - but the heart of the thing is the game, and that is totally out of anyone's control. I think considering the commercials as part of the show is a bit of a stretch, as they will sell air time to anyone willing to pay and operate in FCC guidelines.
Yankee 23 Fan could buy minute and just hype his draft, if he chose to.
Plus, much or most of the pre-game is bad television, pablum for the National Enquirer readers. I care not what Coolio thinks will happen in the game, or Deion filming a documentary of the Maxim party, and the like.
It is a mediocre broadcast of a generally mediocre game that is split upon a contrived and usually mediocre halftime performance. I just do not see it as a quality work, based on the broadcast alone.
I do not think I have ever left a Super Bowl broadcast feeling enriched or better, or even truly entertained in many cases. To me, the Super Bowl is the Paris Hilton of TV events - famous for sure, but despite a lack of substance.
Americans are just looking for a reason to party in mid-winter
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Having worked in both, this is entirely inaccurate.More Super Bowl Thoughts
I think there is a difference between a "Show" and an Event
The Super Bowl is a once a year event, a Broadcast, which to me is easier to pull off than having to do it on a weekly basis like scripted television.
Sure, some folks watch just for the ads - but the heart of the thing is the game, and that is totally out of anyone's control. I think considering the commercials as part of the show is a bit of a stretch, as they will sell air time to anyone willing to pay and operate in FCC guidelines.
Yankee 23 Fan could buy minute and just hype his draft, if he chose to.
Plus, much or most of the pre-game is bad television, pablum for the National Enquirer readers. I care not what Coolio thinks will happen in the game, or Deion filming a documentary of the Maxim party, and the like.
It is a mediocre broadcast of a generally mediocre game that is split upon a contrived and usually mediocre halftime performance. I just do not see it as a quality work, based on the broadcast alone.
I do not think I have ever left a Super Bowl broadcast feeling enriched or better, or even truly entertained in many cases. To me, the Super Bowl is the Paris Hilton of TV events - famous for sure, but despite a lack of substance.
Americans are just looking for a reason to party in mid-winter
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
who's up?
More picks....
