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***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (4 Viewers)

'Matthias said:
So much fail with this I don't even know where to begin.

And all of this from the guy that started the whole "MORE GUNS = MORE MURDERS"

:lmao:
Now this I believe.More guns = more murders wasn't, "started by me." It was pointed out by me after academics had already done the studies. Since then, you guys have gone round and round trying to put up various summary tables.. "Look! Some country has gun control and lots of murders!!! YAHTZE!!!" without looking at a larger data set or doing any sort of anaylysis on it or continuing to confuse, "violent crimes" with, "murders" or, "deaths" particularly in comparison to the UK. And you think that somehow if you keep repackaging this crap eventually you'll have proven something.
Your study had more holes than Swiss cheese, it was based on what two f'n counties? Gtfo
 
'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
So much fail with this I don't even know where to begin.

And all of this from the guy that started the whole "MORE GUNS = MORE MURDERS"

:lmao:
Now this I believe.More guns = more murders wasn't, "started by me." It was pointed out by me after academics had already done the studies. Since then, you guys have gone round and round trying to put up various summary tables.. "Look! Some country has gun control and lots of murders!!! YAHTZE!!!" without looking at a larger data set or doing any sort of anaylysis on it or continuing to confuse, "violent crimes" with, "murders" or, "deaths" particularly in comparison to the UK. And you think that somehow if you keep repackaging this crap eventually you'll have proven something.
Your study had more holes than Swiss cheese, it was based on what two f'n counties? Gtfo
The international one was 12 or 15, IIRC. But the few that were only based on the US only had 1. Of course, there they compared cities/states/counties and normalized for other factors, not just copy and paste numbers and say, "Gee, these look big!"
1 US county? Are you kidding me? Seriously just stop posting.
 
'Matthias said:
You posted summary tables that showed former Eastern Bloc nations had extremely high murder rates but didn't wonder if maybe there was something else driving those results (such as an oppressive regime which didn't provide much legal recourse resulting in a strong black market and mafia presence).
Well it clearly wasn't easy access to guns. Why didn't you ask these same hard hitting questions when evaluating the publications you posted when asked? I explicitly asked why they didn't account for other factors that have a much higher rate associated with homicides then just gun ownership on your amazing study reviewing ONE [CHERRY PICKED] COUNTY IN THE UNITED STATES. :crickets:.
'Matthias said:
You then followed it up an analysis which linked low gun ownership rates to high rates of violent crime. I'm not sure if you just missed the fact that you were posting something different or knew and were hoping that nobody else would.
I posted the top 10 countries by population not based on high rates of violent crime, one might think data from 58% of the world population might have a little more relevance than 1 freaking county in the United States. :wall: I also pointed out the case where China had more guns per capita yet 4 other of the top 10 most populous countries (not top 10 with the highest rates of violent crime) in the world had multiples of intentional homicide rates. Good god you are clueless.
China, the most populated country in the world, has more guns per capita than half of the top 10, yet only Japan has a lower intentional homicide rate with the other 4 countries with fewer guns having 3.4x, 12.2x, 8.1x and 2.7x more intentional homicides per 100k
'Matthias said:
But now, pages later, you just treat it as a fait accompli
:lmao: yes I treated it EXACTLY like a fait accompli.
 
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'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
So much fail with this I don't even know where to begin.

And all of this from the guy that started the whole "MORE GUNS = MORE MURDERS"

:lmao:
Now this I believe.More guns = more murders wasn't, "started by me." It was pointed out by me after academics had already done the studies. Since then, you guys have gone round and round trying to put up various summary tables.. "Look! Some country has gun control and lots of murders!!! YAHTZE!!!" without looking at a larger data set or doing any sort of anaylysis on it or continuing to confuse, "violent crimes" with, "murders" or, "deaths" particularly in comparison to the UK. And you think that somehow if you keep repackaging this crap eventually you'll have proven something.
Your study had more holes than Swiss cheese, it was based on what two f'n counties? Gtfo
The international one was 12 or 15, IIRC. But the few that were only based on the US only had 1. Of course, there they compared cities/states/counties and normalized for other factors, not just copy and paste numbers and say, "Gee, these look big!"
1 US county? Are you kidding me? Seriously just stop posting.
Country. It had 1 country; that country was the United States.
Wrong.Thwarting Crimes

This is the real offender in the study. Up front, Dr. Hemenway acknowledges that aggregate data on gun use in self-defense is unreliable, while implying that some of those who are included in measurements of defensive gun use are actually criminals.

He then breaks down the sources of self-defense data: (a) police reports, (b) randomly sampled surveys that ask directly about self-defense gun use, and © surveys that ask about self-defense gun use only after respondents report that someone attempted to commit a crime against them (aka, NCVS Surveys).

(a) Police Reports: In this section, Dr. Hemenway implies that guns are almost never useful for self-defense from a home invasion. He cites only the Atlanta study taken from citation #12…A study done on one city, covering a 4-month period. There are tens of thousands of other cities to draw data from, across much greater spans of time than 4 months. There are decades of data to draw upon and view as a coherent whole!

That Dr. Hemenway chose just this single study, for a single city, going over just a 4-month period instead of the course of years, instead of aggregating available data across the nation, says loud and clear that citation #12 was cherry picked to suit his conclusions.
 
141 pages on a topic where the status quo will continue. What a waste of thread space.The EOs did nothing, and the AWB will not pass the house. Nothing is going to change; what's the point of continuing this?

 
141 pages on a topic where the status quo will continue. What a waste of thread space.The EOs did nothing, and the AWB will not pass the house. Nothing is going to change; what's the point of continuing this?
We are not trying to solve the world's problems. We are not senators. We are trying to share an opinion and a (very) few of us are looking for other's opinions. I am here to educate against fear, uncertainty, doubt and ignorance of gun use, gun laws and gun owners' opinions and reasons.They were more of an Executive Suggestion than an Executive Order. I said before and recent events only confirm, Obama was not out for guns. He is out for more support and power. By letting the radicals like Feinstein, Biden, Bloomberg, Cuomo and the others go vocal "for the children," the conservative republicans look bad for blocking "progress." The NRA did a good job of deflecting a lot of that onto themselves (us members don't really care how they look when they are doing what they do for our best interests). A lot to do with nothing. Both sides ended up looking stupid at some points, but the NYC bill is the snafu that will stick out like a sore thumb.
 
'Cookiemonster said:
'Rush Limbaugh said:
141 pages on a topic where the status quo will continue. What a waste of thread space.The EOs did nothing, and the AWB will not pass the house. Nothing is going to change; what's the point of continuing this?
We are not trying to solve the world's problems. We are not senators. We are trying to share an opinion and a (very) few of us are looking for other's opinions. I am here to educate against fear, uncertainty, doubt and ignorance of gun use, gun laws and gun owners' opinions and reasons.They were more of an Executive Suggestion than an Executive Order. I said before and recent events only confirm, Obama was not out for guns. He is out for more support and power. By letting the radicals like Feinstein, Biden, Bloomberg, Cuomo and the others go vocal "for the children," the conservative republicans look bad for blocking "progress." The NRA did a good job of deflecting a lot of that onto themselves (us members don't really care how they look when they are doing what they do for our best interests). A lot to do with nothing. Both sides ended up looking stupid at some points, but the NYC bill is the snafu that will stick out like a sore thumb.
I have a feeling your analysis is correct, unfortunately. I don't trust Obama very much at all, and I trust the Dems in the Congress even less. That being said, I'm holding out hope that, because the majority of the public has now swung behind the two issues I have been pushing here, there might be a chance to get something done in the near future. At the very least, removing the private sales loophole might actually happen. We'll see.In the meantime, I agree with you that all of these issues are worth discussing. This thread is not a waste.
 
'Rush Limbaugh said:
141 pages on a topic where the status quo will continue. What a waste of thread space.The EOs did nothing, and the AWB will not pass the house. Nothing is going to change; what's the point of continuing this?
They might get something small out of the Senate, but the AWB and clip size reductions are dead. They were never really live to be honest. The mid-term Dems from the Midwest were never going to fall on their swords for this.
 
'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
Country. It had 1 country; that country was the United States.
Wrong.Thwarting Crimes

This is the real offender in the study. Up front, Dr. Hemenway acknowledges that aggregate data on gun use in self-defense is unreliable, while implying that some of those who are included in measurements of defensive gun use are actually criminals.

He then breaks down the sources of self-defense data: (a) police reports, (b) randomly sampled surveys that ask directly about self-defense gun use, and © surveys that ask about self-defense gun use only after respondents report that someone attempted to commit a crime against them (aka, NCVS Surveys).

(a) Police Reports: In this section, Dr. Hemenway implies that guns are almost never useful for self-defense from a home invasion. He cites only the Atlanta study taken from citation #12…A study done on one city, covering a 4-month period. There are tens of thousands of other cities to draw data from, across much greater spans of time than 4 months. There are decades of data to draw upon and view as a coherent whole!

That Dr. Hemenway chose just this single study, for a single city, going over just a 4-month period instead of the course of years, instead of aggregating available data across the nation, says loud and clear that citation #12 was cherry picked to suit his conclusions.
WTF are you talking about?My original link

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.
You really should just retire this whole, "I pretend to know what I'm talking about but will just throw unrelated #### into the mix" shtick. It's not effective and it's not funny. So... what's the point.
You cannot point to their methods of data collection for one half of the equation (which in and of itself if questionable - see below), without also examining the methods they used to collect data on the beneficial merits of gun ownership, namely defensive gun use (DGU) which as I exposed above was embarrassing.Maybe I should have said "not entirely".

I like this part:

Incidentally, on February 28, 2002, I wrote Dr. Matthew Miller, the lead author of the Journal of Trauma study and requested that he kindly supply me with the primary, raw data which he and his associates used in reaching their conclusions.6 He never did.
__________6. Open-data, public review policy of the Medical Sentinel of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). Medical Sentinel 1999;4(6):193-195.

Something to hide?

 
'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
Country. It had 1 country; that country was the United States.
Wrong.Thwarting Crimes

This is the real offender in the study. Up front, Dr. Hemenway acknowledges that aggregate data on gun use in self-defense is unreliable, while implying that some of those who are included in measurements of defensive gun use are actually criminals.

He then breaks down the sources of self-defense data: (a) police reports, (b) randomly sampled surveys that ask directly about self-defense gun use, and © surveys that ask about self-defense gun use only after respondents report that someone attempted to commit a crime against them (aka, NCVS Surveys).

(a) Police Reports: In this section, Dr. Hemenway implies that guns are almost never useful for self-defense from a home invasion. He cites only the Atlanta study taken from citation #12…A study done on one city, covering a 4-month period. There are tens of thousands of other cities to draw data from, across much greater spans of time than 4 months. There are decades of data to draw upon and view as a coherent whole!

That Dr. Hemenway chose just this single study, for a single city, going over just a 4-month period instead of the course of years, instead of aggregating available data across the nation, says loud and clear that citation #12 was cherry picked to suit his conclusions.
WTF are you talking about?My original link

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.
You really should just retire this whole, "I pretend to know what I'm talking about but will just throw unrelated #### into the mix" shtick. It's not effective and it's not funny. So... what's the point.
You cannot point to their methods of data collection for one half of the equation (which in and of itself if questionable - see below), without also examining the methods they used to collect data on the beneficial merits of gun ownership, namely defensive gun use (DGU) which as I exposed above was embarrassing.Maybe I should have said "not entirely".

I like this part:

Incidentally, on February 28, 2002, I wrote Dr. Matthew Miller, the lead author of the Journal of Trauma study and requested that he kindly supply me with the primary, raw data which he and his associates used in reaching their conclusions.6 He never did.
__________6. Open-data, public review policy of the Medical Sentinel of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). Medical Sentinel 1999;4(6):193-195.

Something to hide?
:lmao: You've fallen out of your tree. The Medical Sentinel/AAPS are a politically-oriented right-wing group and their own "open-data" policy applies to them and them alone. So what if they guy didn't respond to one request for the data, especially if he knew who it was coming from. Did he put the correct address on the envelope? I suspect not! Something to hide? And why didn't he follow up? I know...because then he might have actually gotten the data, wouldn't have been able to say he was ignored and would have most-likely gotten data that supported the conclusions of the study.

Something to hide? :lmao:

 
Simply for ease of the one-stop-shop nature, I'll just use wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine."[1][2] The group was reported to have approximately 4,000 members in 2005, and 3,000 in 2011.[1][3] Notable members include Ron Paul and John Cooksey;[4] the executive director is Jane Orient, a member of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine.

AAPS publishes the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (formerly known as the Medical Sentinel). The Journal is not indexed by mainstream scientific databases such as the Web of Science or MEDLINE.[5] The quality and scientific validity of articles published in the Journal has been criticized by others. Many of the political and scientific viewpoints advocated by AAPS are considered extreme or dubious by other medical groups.[1]
In 1996, Dr Miguel A. Faria, Jr., a retired neurosurgeon and former Clinical Professor of Surgery (Neurosurgery, ret.) at Mercer University School of Medicine as well as founding editor of Medical Sentinel, the AAPS's journal, was involved in a gun control debate regarding the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC). Faria and other critics felt the NCIPC's program on gun violence was biased against gun owners, and was part of a 'public health' political strategy by gun control advocates. They testified before a US House Subcommittee on Appropriations to that effect.[22][23][24] Faria wanted to defund the NCIPC entirely.[25][26] The CDC was forbidden by Congress to use taxpayers' money for gun control research and from participating in lobbying activities.[27][28]
Which isn't to say that data should not be peer reviewed, but that's not what the AAPS are about.I haven't read any of the linked articles, fwiw. Just am familiar with the Medical Sentinel/AAPS and that caught my eye.

 
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'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
'Matthias said:
Country. It had 1 country; that country was the United States.
Wrong.Thwarting Crimes

This is the real offender in the study. Up front, Dr. Hemenway acknowledges that aggregate data on gun use in self-defense is unreliable, while implying that some of those who are included in measurements of defensive gun use are actually criminals.

He then breaks down the sources of self-defense data: (a) police reports, (b) randomly sampled surveys that ask directly about self-defense gun use, and © surveys that ask about self-defense gun use only after respondents report that someone attempted to commit a crime against them (aka, NCVS Surveys).

(a) Police Reports: In this section, Dr. Hemenway implies that guns are almost never useful for self-defense from a home invasion. He cites only the Atlanta study taken from citation #12…A study done on one city, covering a 4-month period. There are tens of thousands of other cities to draw data from, across much greater spans of time than 4 months. There are decades of data to draw upon and view as a coherent whole!

That Dr. Hemenway chose just this single study, for a single city, going over just a 4-month period instead of the course of years, instead of aggregating available data across the nation, says loud and clear that citation #12 was cherry picked to suit his conclusions.
WTF are you talking about?My original link

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.
You really should just retire this whole, "I pretend to know what I'm talking about but will just throw unrelated #### into the mix" shtick. It's not effective and it's not funny. So... what's the point.
You cannot point to their methods of data collection for one half of the equation (which in and of itself if questionable - see below), without also examining the methods they used to collect data on the beneficial merits of gun ownership, namely defensive gun use (DGU) which as I exposed above was embarrassing.Maybe I should have said "not entirely".

I like this part:

Incidentally, on February 28, 2002, I wrote Dr. Matthew Miller, the lead author of the Journal of Trauma study and requested that he kindly supply me with the primary, raw data which he and his associates used in reaching their conclusions.6 He never did.
__________6. Open-data, public review policy of the Medical Sentinel of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). Medical Sentinel 1999;4(6):193-195.

Something to hide?
So you've moved on from citing a critique of the wrong study to a citing a critique of a different wrong study?Your link cites to a piece criticizing Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Firearm availability and unintentional firearm deaths, suicide, and homicide among 5-14 year olds. J Trauma 2002;52(2):267-275. The links above are articles from the journals American Journal of Public Health and Social Science and Medicine.

Your overall unfamiliarity with statistical methods in general and academic articles specifically continue to be on banner display.
5 digit has been notoriously comical since the early days of this thread for his utter incapacity to read a peer-reviewed study and interpret its findings. Despite his claims otherwise, he doesn't even understand cursory statistics, so I think it's a tall order to expect him to comprehend anything more comprehensive than addition/subtraction lessons on Sesame Street.
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!" So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.

 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!" So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
They don't even know what their own sign means. Second Amendment is not under any threat. All these people on this thread and out on the streets are reaching :tinfoilhat: proportions.
 
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/20/teen-arrested-in-new-mexico-after-shooting-two-adults-and-three-children/A young man has been arrested and charged in the murder of five people, including three children, in the southwestern US state of New Mexico, police said Sunday.Police said in a statement they found the bodies of an adult male and female and two girls and a boy described as “juveniles,” all dead from multiple gunshot wounds, when they arrived at an Albuquerque home late Saturday.Aaron Williamson, a spokesman for the Bernalillo County Sheriff’s Office, told AFP “multiple” weapons were found at the scene, including a “military-type assault rifle,” adding that the investigation was still under way.So common place it's not even newsworthy. 1,000 plus gun deaths since Newtown......
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!" So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
 
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/20/teen-arrested-in-new-mexico-after-shooting-two-adults-and-three-children/A young man has been arrested and charged in the murder of five people, including three children, in the southwestern US state of New Mexico, police said Sunday.Police said in a statement they found the bodies of an adult male and female and two girls and a boy described as “juveniles,” all dead from multiple gunshot wounds, when they arrived at an Albuquerque home late Saturday.Aaron Williamson, a spokesman for the Bernalillo County Sheriff’s Office, told AFP “multiple” weapons were found at the scene, including a “military-type assault rifle,” adding that the investigation was still under way.So common place it's not even newsworthy. 1,000 plus gun deaths since Newtown......
Yes so common place we dont even take notice or are aware of the carnage. :loco: My link . Horrible, just Horrible.
 
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Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
By using this term, you're part of the problem. There are no grabbers. Even if new assault rifles are banned, (which IMO is a poor idea) NOBODY in any kind of authority is talking about taking away the ones you already own. Why don't you just admit that you're as paranoid as the rest of them?

 
The "pro-gun" people have expressed, in opposition to modest gun control proposals, 6 different sorts of arguments in this thread:1. These proposals will have little to no impact on the crime they are supposed to help prevent. 2. These proposals would weaken a private citizen's ability to defend himself in the event of a home invasion. 3. These proposals violate the 2nd Amendment.4. These proposals are a "slippery slope"; if they are agreed to, there will be more restrictive gun control measures in the future, and eventually all guns will be seized. 5. These proposals weaken the ability of private citizens to defend themselves in the event of a tyrannical government taking over the United States.6. These proposals are proof that a tyrannical government has already taken control of the United States. Of these arguments, I have heard some good ones for #1 (in terms of banning assault rifles, the arguments were so good that they in fact changed my mind.) I have heard some decent arguments, (though not personally convincing to me), for # 2. But arguments #3-#6 are just ludicrous. They are not only stupid, they are dangerous in that they breed ignorance and populism, and they could be a catalyst for violence. Unfortunately, the NRA and other vocal gun-rights supporters have chosen to emphasize these sorts of arguments rather than the first one or two, believing that it will swell the numbers of their supporters. This very well might, but shame on them, and shame on any thoughtful person who promotes this crap.

 
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Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
By using this term, you're part of the problem. There are no grabbers. Even if new assault rifles are banned, (which IMO is a poor idea) NOBODY in any kind of authority is talking about taking away the ones you already own. Why don't you just admit that you're as paranoid as the rest of them?
Will you at least admit that Feinstein's proposal will be the one pushed the hardest for a AWB?Read that proposal very carefully and tell me what she has in mind.

This is not saying it will be passed but what are her intentions.

 
There is absolutly no evidence to show that the proposed bans would have changed the outcome of this or any of the school shootings in the last 20 years.The arguement (and a weak arguement at that) is that police would have an easier time subduing a gunman. What gunman, hell bent on illegal mass attack like this, cares to obey these new laws?

 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.

 
'Matthias said:
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!" So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
If you guys are going to insist on using the term grabbers, we'll need an appropriate equivalent for you. Which do you prefer: clutcher, hick, or hayseed?And as I remarked before, it's the sad truth that most of the country doesn't care that much about black male drug dealers shooting each other in the ghetto. So society isn't trying to prevent all gun deaths, just the ones that they care about. And we could try banning handguns but then you guys would go into epiliptic fits that this is striking to the heart of the Second Amendment and puts you at risk at home and elsewhere. Also as I said earlier, if moderate measures are proposed, you guys try to ridicule it as not doing enough to solve any problem. If something larger is proposed that would solve more of the problem, you go into your rants about the Second Amendment and taking away your rights. So no proposal ever makes you happy.
I don't mind the gun-grabber title. :shrug:Kind of depicts one aspect of what needs to be done. Also beats being paranoid, dumb, and/or a combination of both, which represents the other side of the equation.
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
By using this term, you're part of the problem. There are no grabbers. Even if new assault rifles are banned, (which IMO is a poor idea) NOBODY in any kind of authority is talking about taking away the ones you already own. Why don't you just admit that you're as paranoid as the rest of them?
Will you at least admit that Feinstein's proposal will be the one pushed the hardest for a AWB?Read that proposal very carefully and tell me what she has in mind.

This is not saying it will be passed but what are her intentions.
It seems rather absurd to label the people timschochet is referring to as "paranoid" when the primary individual pushing the legislation in Congress ultimately wants a ban on all guns.There are quite a lot of people that do want to work towards a ban on all guns, including several in here. The more they speak out the easier it is to push the slippery slope argument as a defense.

None of this matters anyway. The window is gone (there really never was much of one). We won't see any ban or clip size limitation legislation even make it through the Senate at this point. We might see some loopholes closed though, which many on both sides support.

 
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There is absolutly no evidence to show that the proposed bans would have changed the outcome of this or any of the school shootings in the last 20 years.The arguement (and a weak arguement at that) is that police would have an easier time subduing a gunman. What gunman, hell bent on illegal mass attack like this, cares to obey these new laws?
A polite one?
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
That's not my intent. At all. Just as I don't assume it's your intent to allow everyone to be armed with a rocket launcher or nuke based on the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Reasonable restrictions, background checks/enforcement (to weed out some of the bad guys), and registration/licensing requirements (to promote safe handling like we do with automobiles) are warranted. Will this save everyone? Dear god no. But, it would be a move in the right direction to make this a safer place to live without interfering with anyone's rights.

 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
That's not my intent. At all. Just as I don't assume it's your intent to allow everyone to be armed with a rocket launcher or nuke based on the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Reasonable restrictions, background checks/enforcement (to weed out some of the bad guys), and registration/licensing requirements (to promote safe handling like we do with automobiles) are warranted. Will this save everyone? Dear god no. But, it would be a move in the right direction to make this a safer place to live without interfering with anyone's rights.
So we go from rocket launchers to 11 round mags. Very reasonable.
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
That's not my intent. At all. Just as I don't assume it's your intent to allow everyone to be armed with a rocket launcher or nuke based on the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Reasonable restrictions, background checks/enforcement (to weed out some of the bad guys), and registration/licensing requirements (to promote safe handling like we do with automobiles) are warranted. Will this save everyone? Dear god no. But, it would be a move in the right direction to make this a safer place to live without interfering with anyone's rights.
So we go from rocket launchers to 11 round mags. Very reasonable.
You're deliberately not getting it. I can't help you, if you're intent on being obtuse.
 
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.......

40% loophole fallacy

“The law already requires licensed gun dealers to run background checks, and over the last 14 years that’s kept 1.5 million of the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. But it’s hard to enforce that law when as many as 40 percent of all gun purchases are conducted without a background check.”

--President Obama, remarks on gun violence, Jan. 16, 2013

“Studies estimate that nearly 40 percent of all gun sales are made by private sellers who are exempt from this requirement.”

--“Now Is the Time: The president’s plan to protect our children and our communities by reducing gun violence,” released Jan. 16

“That’s why we need, and I’ve recommended to the president, universal background checks. Studies show that up to 40 percent of the people -- and there’s no -- let me be honest with you again, which I’ll get to in a moment. Because of the lack of the ability of federal agencies to be able to even keep records, we can’t say with absolute certainty what I’m about to say is correct. But the consensus is about 40 percent of the people who buy guns today do so outside the NICS [National Instant Criminal Background Check] system, outside the background check system.”

--Vice President Biden, remarks to the U.S. Conference of Mayors, Jan. 17

Regular readers of this column know that we are often suspicious when politicians inject the phrase “up to” before citing a statistic. That’s because it often suggests the politician is picking the upper value in a range of possibilities.

A reader expressed deep skepticism of this 40-percent figure when Obama used it. We were further struck by Biden’s admission he could not say with “absolute certainty” that it was correct. So let’s investigate.

The Facts

The White House says the figure comes from a 1997 Institute of Justice report, written by Philip Cook of Duke University and Jens Ludwig of the University of Chicago. This study is based on data collected from a survey in 1994, just the Brady law requirements for background checks was coming into effect. (In fact, the questions concerned purchases in 1993 and 1994, while Brady law went into effect in early 1994.) In other words, this is a really old figure.

The data is available for researchers to explore at the Interuniversity consortium on political and social research (ICPSR) at the University of Michigan. Digging deeper, we find that the survey sample was just 251 people. (The survey was done by telephone, using a random-digit-dial method, with a response rate of 50 percent.) With this sample size, the 95 percent confidence interval will be plus or minus 6 percentage points.

Moreover, when asked if he or she bought from a licensed firearms dealer, the possible answers included “probably was/think so” and “probably not,” leaving open the possibility the purchaser was mistaken. (The “probably not” answers were counted as “no.”)

When all of the “yes” and “probably was” answers were added together, that left 35.7 percent of respondents indicating they did not receive the gun from a licensed firearms dealer. Rounding up gets you to 40 percent, though as we noted the survey sample is so small it could also be rounded down to 30 percent.

Moreover, when gifts, inheritances and prizes are added in, then the number shrinks to 26.4 percent. (The survey showed that nearly 23.8 percent of the people surveyed obtained their gun either as a gift or inherited it, and about half of them believed a licensed firearms dealer was the source.)

Cook and Ludwig, in a lengthier 1996 study of the data for the Police Foundation, acknowledge the ambiguity in the answers, but gave their best estimate as a range of 30 to 40 percent for transactions in the “off-the-books” secondary market. (The shorter 1997 study cited by the White House does not give a range, but instead says “approximately 60 percent of gun acquisitions” involved a licensed dealer.)

Interestingly, while people often speak of the “gun show loophole,” the data in this 1994 survey shows that only 3.9 percent of firearm purchases were made at gun shows.

Ludwig acknowledged that “our estimate is clearly not perfect.” He said that a larger sample size would have provided a more precise estimate of off-the-books transactions, but he and Cook were not involved in the design stage of the survey. He added that one reason why the data is so old is because the federal government has generally stopped funding such research.

“While there is no perfect estimate in social science, we’d have a better estimate for this proportion had the federal government not decided to get out of the business of supporting research on guns and gun violence several years ago,” he said.

Ludwig and Cook were among the social scientists who signed a letter to Biden earlier this month calling on ending barriers to firearms research. The letter includes an interesting figure, comparing how many National Institute of Health awards have been given for firearms research versus infectious diseases.

 
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It seems rather absurd to label the people timschochet is referring to as "paranoid" when the primary individual pushing the legislation in Congress ultimately wants a ban on all guns.

There are quite a lot of people that do want to work towards a ban on all guns, including several in here. The more they speak out the easier it is to push the slippery slope argument as a defense.

None of this matters anyway. The window is gone (there really never was much of one). We won't see any ban or clip size limitation legislation even make it through the Senate at this point. We might see some loopholes closed though, which many on both sides support.
Your post contains several falsehoods: first, Dianne Feinstein has never expressed that she "ultimately wants a ban on all guns". She has been oft-misquoted; she definitely would like a ban on all weapons she considers assault rifles. Even so, I don't believe that she would go so far as to insisting that the police or authorities go to private homes and seizes weapons already owned. She has never expressed this desire or plan; nor has any American politician of importance; this is a figment of your paranoia.Second, there are not "quite a lot of people" that want to work toward a ban on all guns. Personally I don't know any. You claim there are "several in here"; but I don't recall a single posting that desired that, except in jest. Certainly no one in a position of authority has proposed this. To use this as some sort of straw argument is absurd.

Finally, you speak about Congress with a level of certainty, and while you may very well be right, your supreme confidence is, IMO, unwarranted. Majority of public opinion has altered since Newtown, especially with regard to high cap limits. Usually that is the causation for changes to the law. Whether it happens this time around remains to be seen.

 
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.......40% loophole fallacy
To me this is an irrelevancy. What's relevant instead is what percentage of guns owned or used by felons are obtained through illegal sales in which the seller is unaware that the sale is illegal? We don't know the number, but law enforcement suggests that it is significant. The purpose of closing this loophole is to prevent honest sellers from engaging unknowingly in illegal transactions. There is NO question in my mind that it will have a significant, positive effect in fighting crime, and this is doubly so after reading the various police testimony in favor of this proposal.
 
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Will you at least admit that Feinstein's proposal will be the one pushed the hardest for a AWB?Read that proposal very carefully and tell me what she has in mind.This is not saying it will be passed but what are her intentions.
1. I don't know.2. I have read her proposal. I don't agree with it. However, I don't find it to be unconstitutional, and I certainly don't think she has in mind going into private homes and seizing guns. 3. Her intentions are to ban certain forms of semi-automatic guns, to limit high capacity magazines, and to remove the private sales loophole. She has no "secret" intentions beyond what she states.
 
Not sure I agree with every "fact" represented in that website. Some of it appears to be correct, and I have read similar things elsewhere. But comparing gun violence statistics to other countries is a questionable task, as there are a lot of misrepresentations going on, as Matthias has labored to demonstrate again and again. But in any case, what do any of these arguments have to do with the gun control proposals we are discussing? None that I can see.
 
Will you at least admit that Feinstein's proposal will be the one pushed the hardest for a AWB?Read that proposal very carefully and tell me what she has in mind.This is not saying it will be passed but what are her intentions.
1. I don't know.2. I have read her proposal. I don't agree with it. However, I don't find it to be unconstitutional, and I certainly don't think she has in mind going into private homes and seizing guns. 3. Her intentions are to ban certain forms of semi-automatic guns, to limit high capacity magazines, and to remove the private sales loophole. She has no "secret" intentions beyond what she states.
Never said she had the intention of going into homes and seizing them but I think it's pretty clear she wants a huge portion of guns to be banned based upon her proposal.That IMO is no secret and we all know it.Would it be fair to say that unless all guns were banned that is the only way you would see it as unconstitutional?I still say the only thing that gets done this time is the background checks.We then wait for the next mass killing and start it all over again.
 
Will you at least admit that Feinstein's proposal will be the one pushed the hardest for a AWB?Read that proposal very carefully and tell me what she has in mind.This is not saying it will be passed but what are her intentions.
1. I don't know.2. I have read her proposal. I don't agree with it. However, I don't find it to be unconstitutional, and I certainly don't think she has in mind going into private homes and seizing guns. 3. Her intentions are to ban certain forms of semi-automatic guns, to limit high capacity magazines, and to remove the private sales loophole. She has no "secret" intentions beyond what she states.
Never said she had the intention of going into homes and seizing them but I think it's pretty clear she wants a huge portion of guns to be banned based upon her proposal.That IMO is no secret and we all know it.Would it be fair to say that unless all guns were banned that is the only way you would see it as unconstitutional?I still say the only thing that gets done this time is the background checks.We then wait for the next mass killing and start it all over again.
As to your question, my answer is no. There are lots of proposals that I would consider to be unconstitutional. For instance, as someone (perhaps you?) asked me before, if a law attempted to set a limit on magazines of one bullet per magazine, I would find that to be unreasonable. I have a feeling any attempt to make all semi-automatic weapons illegal (as one person here proposed) would be unreasonable (as well as completely impractical.)
 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
That's not my intent. At all. Just as I don't assume it's your intent to allow everyone to be armed with a rocket launcher or nuke based on the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Reasonable restrictions, background checks/enforcement (to weed out some of the bad guys), and registration/licensing requirements (to promote safe handling like we do with automobiles) are warranted. Will this save everyone? Dear god no. But, it would be a move in the right direction to make this a safer place to live without interfering with anyone's rights.
So we go from rocket launchers to 11 round mags. Very reasonable.
You're deliberately not getting it. I can't help you, if you're intent on being obtuse.
I don't get bipolar.
 
5 digit's latest piece of "propaganda"

the further right you go, the more criminal background checks for gun sales were performed per state

the higher up you go the more intentional homicides recorded per that state

the fatter the bubble, the higher the population density

the three highest by intentional homicide rate:

1) Puerto Rico ranked 51st for background checks, ranked 3rd for population density

2) Washington D.C. ranked 52nd for background checks, ranked 1st for population density

3) Louisiana ranked 27th for background checks, ranked 28th for population density

 
Driving down the street yesterday, taking my daughters to dance class, I saw this protest. Bunch of people holding up signs that read "PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!" and "STOP OBAMA FROM SEIZING OUR GUNS!"

So sad and pathetic. The NRA and talk radio has these people really whipped up, and their paranoid fears do the rest.
About as sad as the grabbers scaring everyone into thinking banning a rifle responsible for less then 1% of all firearms related deaths will make everyone safe.
That's never been asserted or even intimated.But, this is a 1% that I would get behind and support with reasonable measures to remove some firearms from circulation, get tighter on the background checks, increase the licensing requirements, etc.
Serious question here, if your goal isn't to make everyone safe, why ban an entire class of guns? See when you say the above I read your intent is clearly to eventually try to ban all guns starting with the scary looking ones.
That's not my intent. At all. Just as I don't assume it's your intent to allow everyone to be armed with a rocket launcher or nuke based on the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Reasonable restrictions, background checks/enforcement (to weed out some of the bad guys), and registration/licensing requirements (to promote safe handling like we do with automobiles) are warranted. Will this save everyone? Dear god no. But, it would be a move in the right direction to make this a safer place to live without interfering with anyone's rights.
So we go from rocket launchers to 11 round mags. Very reasonable.
You're deliberately not getting it. I can't help you, if you're intent on being obtuse.
I don't get bipolar.
I doubt you even know what that means. But, since you invoked some clinical terminology, I think you and others have been more on the border zone of paranoid and histrionic.
 

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