***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (4 Viewers)

[RCon]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

[Otis]Redneck, hillbilly gun nerd.[/Otis]

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

[Otis]Redneck, hillbilly gun nerd.[/Otis]

To be fair, linking to "Monster Hunter Nation" blog isn't doing much to counteract that stereotype.

 

[Chaos Commish]

For my GB, Otis:

New Mexico woman shot intruder

Sandoval grabbed a knife, put the knife to her chin and told her to take off her clothes. The woman told deputies she then reached under her pillow, grabbed a loaded gun and shot him. She fled from her home and called 911.

Officials say Sandoval died at the scene.

No charges have been filed.

Accused Rapist Shot

No charges will be filed against the Cape Girardeau woman who shot and killed a registered sex offender trying to break back into her home.

Rapist shot in the eye

An Ohio man accused of raping a woman at gunpoint appeared in court wearing a bandage over his right eye — an injury suffered after police say the woman shot him in the face before escaping.

28-year-old woman forced to shoot and kill intruder Lisa Goude called police when she noticed a man lurking outside her house at about 1:15 a.m. Just two minutes into the call, the man broke through the glass of a kitchen window and entered the home.

The 28-year-old intruder refused to leave and attempted to enter Goude’s bedroom.

Goude retrieved a handgun and shot the man once before instructing him to leave her home once again. Despite suffering a gunshot wound, the intruder reportedly came at Goude causing her to fire two more rounds.

After suffering two gunshots to the neck and one to the abdomen, the intruder was pronounced dead at the scene.

That last link has 80 pages archiving similar.

DGUs (defensive gun uses) are worth understanding. A DGU is any use by a civilian of a gun, including verbal warnings and just showing the weapon, along with pulling and firing the weapon in thwarting a crime in progress. Some NRA shill did empirical polling and extrapolated an often cited 2.5 million annual DGUs. It is a bogus number. Again the anti gun CDC did their own independent research and claimed only a half million successful DGUs annually. It's a big number.

We average a little over 200 justifiable homicides annually, not always like those linked above regarding women and rapists, but legal lethal self defense nonetheless. 2300 in the last decade. Mass killings will never match the number of people who legally defend themselves under the reasonable belief their life was endangered.

Yeah, I think handguns should be legal pretty much for these exact circumstances, especially in the home.I'm actually even in favor of concealed carry permits for the most part, though I think they should be restricted to those who demonstrate extreme proficiency and good judgment under pressure and there should be extreme sentencing escalators for a concealed carry permit holder who breaks the law with the concealed gun in his/her possession at the time or a non-permit holder who has a concealed weapon.

I guess I'm coming off as anti-gun in this thread. Definitely not. I own a gun, have almost always owned guns, and have pretty often tossed around the idea of getting a permit. Just haven't committed myself to the work necessary to feel like I should do that.

My haid esploded reading that last bit, but I appreciate it. I'm an outdoors enthusiast. It seems like I've owned a firearm as long as I've owned a penis. I also have a collecting dysfunction that had me over 40 firearms by age 49. Lots of junk. I've cut that in half, and I'm not married to owning any if I can be convinced. I'm as sick as anyone about mass shootings, and I know case by case homicides are an even more pressing issue. I probably support much tougher legislation than 99% of gun owners, but I have yet to read anything that both makes sense and is realistic. I can respect and relate to a passionate plea for aggressive measures to make sure last Friday never happens again from GM, Apple others and even Otis. Reduntantly regurgitating weak compromised ideas like Tim is despite all the evidence and information given turns my stomach. It solves nothing. It serves a political purpose, not a pragmatic one; it's striking while the iron's hot and the children's bodies still warm. Puke.I also have a 4x4 dually.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

From that article...

China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.

Yeah, and a country with 1.4 billion people has.... 14,811 total Homicides.

Gun Homicides? NONE.



[/thread]

 

[17seconds]

I think big trucks are more of a showoff (penis compensation) thing than guns. You don't usually know what guns someone has.Guns satisfy a desire to feel dominant over other living things.

Well yeah, obviously. If you, personally, don't agree with someone else's tastes or opinions, it's fairly obvious that it all comes down to the other guy's penis size or need to feel dominant. It just stands to reason.

All Romney voters have little penises. Yeah, that's what I think.Also people who like lima beans. Dickless wonders, all of them.

 

[Borat]

You sure do spend a lot of time thinking about penises.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

A couple of days ago I was in the camp that guns themselves were a bigger problem than the owners. The pro gun people in this thread have convinced me that the mental state of gun owners is a far bigger problem for our country.

Damn .

Getting my guns some guns to protect them from other guns

 

[17seconds]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Some real doosies in there

The single best way to respond to a mass shooter is with an immediate, violent response.

Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people.

why do gun owners want magazines that hold more rounds? Because sometimes you miss.

I have pulled a gun exactly one time in my entire life.

when nearly six hundred people get murdered a year in beautiful Gun Free Chicago, that’s not my people doing the shooting.

The gun culture is who protects our country

 

[Otis]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

[Otis]Redneck, hillbilly gun nerd.[/Otis]

To be fair, linking to "Monster Hunter Nation" blog isn't doing much to counteract that stereotype.

 

[Otis]

From that article...

China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.

Yeah, and a country with 1.4 billion people has.... 14,811 total Homicides.

Gun Homicides? NONE.



[/thread]

Yeah that "article" is really, really bad.

 

[Gr00vus]

From that article...

China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.

Yeah, and a country with 1.4 billion people has.... 14,811 total Homicides.

Gun Homicides? NONE.



[/thread]

Also the most recently reported per capita intentional homicide rate is pretty low comparatively speaking at 1 per 100,000. I guess the question is do you believe the numbers reported considering which government we're talking about here. The U.S. is at 4.2 per 100,000 which is roughly in the middle of the range.

 

[Spanky267]

I just read this.http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121220/stray.bullet.shooting/?cid=hero_media_SFOMade me want to ask the question, those of you who like walking around in public with guns with an intent to use them if needed as self defense, can you guarantee that you'd never miss your target, thus sending your bullet off to potentially hit someone else? Can you guarantee your bullet will not go through whatever it is you're shooting at and do the same thing?

I own a gun, but I dont have my permit to carry concealed yet. That being said I would hope that I would never have to unholster my gun with the intention of having to use it. I would have a concern about potentially missing. But I assume everyone has that concern and it is a legitimate concern. The gentleman in Portland who pulled his pistol on the mall shooter last week did not fire because of those very concerns. But it appears the mere presence of potential oppossition shut the murderer down.

 

[sporthenry]

From that article...

China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.

Yeah, and a country with 1.4 billion people has.... 14,811 total Homicides.

Gun Homicides? NONE.



[/thread]

Also the most recently reported per capita intentional homicide rate is pretty low comparatively speaking at 1 per 100,000. I guess the question is do you believe the numbers reported considering which government we're talking about here. The U.S. is at 4.2 per 100,000 which is roughly in the middle of the range.

And that doesn't even take into consideration one of the biggest correlations with homicide which is poverty/economic inequality and how hour general life conditions are much better than China.

 

[Spanky267]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

 

[Otis]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

 

[Spanky267]

Police arrested Jock on charges of aggravated battery with a weapon and shooting within a building. He was released from jail on $20,000 bail.

Only a 20K bond for that?!?

$10K of the bail was for the aggravated battery the other $10K was for shooting within an building. Guy will most definitely lose his permit to carry concealed and face lengthy jail time.

 

[Ranethe]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Yeah, that was an interesting and informative article. I found myself agreeing with many of his points...until he went right wing nut job at the end and essentially began threatening civil war.Ultimately I don't know that that article, in sum, really helps the pro gun argument. And I'm not sure what should happen. I think it's nuts to allow CCW in schools, I would personally never be in favor of that despite the arguments supporting it.

 

[Spanky267]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

I know you were asking Rich. I felt compelled to answer. That being said Open Carry is not legal in most states so the teachers firearms would not be visible to the students. If such a program were implemented it should be constructed in a way that is similar to the armed pilot program. It would be voluntary and the teachers would go through rigorous training. This is not something you would want to force teachers to participate in. I might be more practical to enlist members of the school adminsitration as opposed to classroom teachers as they have less direct contact with the students and they usually carry radios to be made aware of the goings on across the campus. At the very least we should be looking at ways to make it more difficult for criminals to move through schools with impunity. Perhaps there are ways to reinforce glass in hallways and ways to lock down doors so as to restrict an assailants movement. Thus giving teachers and students to opportunity to evacuate.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

For you people that live in a conceal carry state, you would be amazed at how many people walking around with you in Walmart, Home Depot, Target, Costco or your local supermarket have weapons with them.

Including a lot of woman .

 

[Otis]

Relevant data point that helps me to remember where I am: Tate Stevens just won the X Factor.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Relevant data point that helps me to remember where I am: Tate Stevens just won the X Factor.

Ditto. I don't even know what that means.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Yeah, that was an interesting and informative article. I found myself agreeing with many of his points...until he went right wing nut job at the end and essentially began threatening civil war.Ultimately I don't know that that article, in sum, really helps the pro gun argument. And I'm not sure what should happen. I think it's nuts to allow CCW in schools, I would personally never be in favor of that despite the arguments supporting it.

I am strongly in favor of ideas in that post, but I couldn't make it all the way through because his anger had him trying too hard and making unnecessary stupid points.

 

[tommyboy]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids.

i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

 

[timschochet]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids. i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

Are you in favor of raising taxes in order to pay for more police to ensure a quicker response?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids. i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

 

[Henry Ford]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Some real doosies in there

The single best way to respond to a mass shooter is with an immediate, violent response.

Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people.

why do gun owners want magazines that hold more rounds? Because sometimes you miss.

I have pulled a gun exactly one time in my entire life.

when nearly six hundred people get murdered a year in beautiful Gun Free Chicago, that’s not my people doing the shooting.

The gun culture is who protects our country

Why does everyone think it's illegal to have a gun in Chicago?

 

[Henry Ford]

For you people that live in a conceal carry state, you would be amazed at how many people walking around with you in Walmart, Home Depot, Target, Costco or your local supermarket have weapons with them.

Including a lot of woman .

I thought she looked quite petite.

 

[Henry Ford]

For my GB, Otis:

New Mexico woman shot intruder

Sandoval grabbed a knife, put the knife to her chin and told her to take off her clothes. The woman told deputies she then reached under her pillow, grabbed a loaded gun and shot him. She fled from her home and called 911.

Officials say Sandoval died at the scene.

No charges have been filed.

Accused Rapist Shot

No charges will be filed against the Cape Girardeau woman who shot and killed a registered sex offender trying to break back into her home.

Rapist shot in the eye

An Ohio man accused of raping a woman at gunpoint appeared in court wearing a bandage over his right eye — an injury suffered after police say the woman shot him in the face before escaping.

28-year-old woman forced to shoot and kill intruder Lisa Goude called police when she noticed a man lurking outside her house at about 1:15 a.m. Just two minutes into the call, the man broke through the glass of a kitchen window and entered the home.

The 28-year-old intruder refused to leave and attempted to enter Goude’s bedroom.

Goude retrieved a handgun and shot the man once before instructing him to leave her home once again. Despite suffering a gunshot wound, the intruder reportedly came at Goude causing her to fire two more rounds.

After suffering two gunshots to the neck and one to the abdomen, the intruder was pronounced dead at the scene.

That last link has 80 pages archiving similar.

DGUs (defensive gun uses) are worth understanding. A DGU is any use by a civilian of a gun, including verbal warnings and just showing the weapon, along with pulling and firing the weapon in thwarting a crime in progress. Some NRA shill did empirical polling and extrapolated an often cited 2.5 million annual DGUs. It is a bogus number. Again the anti gun CDC did their own independent research and claimed only a half million successful DGUs annually. It's a big number.

We average a little over 200 justifiable homicides annually, not always like those linked above regarding women and rapists, but legal lethal self defense nonetheless. 2300 in the last decade. Mass killings will never match the number of people who legally defend themselves under the reasonable belief their life was endangered.

Yeah, I think handguns should be legal pretty much for these exact circumstances, especially in the home.I'm actually even in favor of concealed carry permits for the most part, though I think they should be restricted to those who demonstrate extreme proficiency and good judgment under pressure and there should be extreme sentencing escalators for a concealed carry permit holder who breaks the law with the concealed gun in his/her possession at the time or a non-permit holder who has a concealed weapon.

I guess I'm coming off as anti-gun in this thread. Definitely not. I own a gun, have almost always owned guns, and have pretty often tossed around the idea of getting a permit. Just haven't committed myself to the work necessary to feel like I should do that.

My haid esploded reading that last bit, but I appreciate it. I'm an outdoors enthusiast. It seems like I've owned a firearm as long as I've owned a penis.

That may be the weirdest sentence I've read today. I hope you mean your own.

I also have a collecting dysfunction that had me over 40 firearms by age 49. Lots of junk. I've cut that in half, and I'm not married to owning any if I can be convinced. I'm as sick as anyone about mass shootings, and I know case by case homicides are an even more pressing issue. I probably support much tougher legislation than 99% of gun owners, but I have yet to read anything that both makes sense and is realistic. I can respect and relate to a passionate plea for aggressive measures to make sure last Friday never happens again from GM, Apple others and even Otis. Reduntantly regurgitating weak compromised ideas like Tim is despite all the evidence and information given turns my stomach. It solves nothing. It serves a political purpose, not a pragmatic one; it's striking while the iron's hot and the children's bodies still warm. Puke.

I also have a 4x4 dually.

The simple fact is, I don't want my kids' kindergarten teacher to be the sort of person I think you need to be to pull the gun, pull the trigger, and put two in the chest, one in the head. And I think I'm just fine on that count. I think a lot of people feel that way. For good or ill, I think most of use are of the opinion that arming teachers is a bad idea because you get all of the risk with minimal chance at a reward except in some very limited cases - ex-combat military and/or ex-field agent/officer law enforcement. I have zero problem with them being allowed to keep taking refresher courses and carry, provided that they're not picking up other people's little kids with a gun on their person. But I don't consider them civilians. Kind of a "once a Marine..." thing there in my head, anywya.I remember my elementary school teachers. I'm pretty sure Mr. Schwartz, as mean an old ******* as he was, couldn't do it. And he's the best example I can think of from my elementary school. He was even in the army before he lost his marbles.

 

[Novice2]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Some real doosies in there

The single best way to respond to a mass shooter is with an immediate, violent response.

Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people.

why do gun owners want magazines that hold more rounds? Because sometimes you miss.

I have pulled a gun exactly one time in my entire life.

when nearly six hundred people get murdered a year in beautiful Gun Free Chicago, that’s not my people doing the shooting.

The gun culture is who protects our country

Why does everyone think it's illegal to have a gun in Chicago?

Because it is Chicago's gun culture. That gun culture being ruled unconstitutional hasn't caught up yet.

 

[Otis]

Might want to look at WHY people do these things and not HOW. Hint: It isn't a gun problem.

The Why is a longer term societal fix.Doesn't mean you shouldn't make it harder for people to get the means to execute schoolchildren even if you can't fix everyone's thoughts.

You think banning guns is a short term fix? You know how many guns are in the US? Like the stabbing in China today, a nutjub is going to find a way. What if the next trend is to take a bunch of gas cans into a school and burn everyone? Ban gas?

No, you do what you can. Why the #### is that so ####### hard to understand for you? Why can't you ####### get that? If you enact a measure that keeps just one murdering ####### ####### from shooting up a school or a mall or a movie theater then you have succeeded in a huge way that trying NOTHING will ever touch.Another all-or-nothing ####### nut. I have proposed very reasonable measures that would at least put effort towards identifying at risk people who attempt to buy guns. It would not prevent anyone non-violent, normal, sane person from owning a gun and all I heard about was how it was an invasion of privacy or would cost too much to institute. We could pass that law tomorrow. And it could have prevented the Aurora shooting had it been on the books then.Real simple: you want a gun, we are going to talk to your medical insurance company and see if you have had any psychological problems whatsoever, and if you have, your gun purchase will wait until it is determined whether you pose any risk to anyone by owning a gun.Also, you are required to submit any social handles so those can be checked. Also laughed at.This guy has a twitter account talking about how he wants to world to end. Aurora dude did too, and had a psychological profile to boot. Guy who shot up the Sikh temple had youtube videos talking about lynching people.We could enact all these restrictions tomorrow, and unless you can provide proof that they would not help prevent one gun from being sold to the wrong person, then there is no reason to not give them a try.Saying we should try nothing because trying anything wouldn't be 100% effective is not only stupid, it's massively insensitive to the victims and their families.

Cliffs' notes?

 

[Otis]

Otis keeps saying he wants to ban all guns.

That's really stupid.

Here's a link to an article from Stone Cold Murder Destruction Civil War Nation that has some pretty compelling arguments.

 

[Otis]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids. i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

Was it 20 mins to get there or to get inside?I read somewhere that old protocol was to get there, assess the situation from outside and contain it, and wait for a bunch more police to show up. But that is supposedly changing so that now as long as two cops are there, they are supposed to go in. Ill be very curious to know if officers arrived while the hundred rounds were being fired and just waited outside? Or were they just too late?

 

[RCon]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids. i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

Are you in favor of raising taxes in order to pay for more police to ensure a quicker response?

I thought it was pretty clear that he's in favor of allowing properly trained individuals to concealed carry in "gun-free zones".

 

[Rohn Jambo]

How do WE get Congress to pass a gun control bill?

I would assume the bare minimum will be revisiting the federal AWB. Any congressman will be vilified for voting against it at this point. Will be interesting to see if they stop at that or try to make a federal minimum for gun purchases.

I mean is there a online petition?

An online petition will change everything.

Yes. Link

 

[Henry Ford]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Some real doosies in there

The single best way to respond to a mass shooter is with an immediate, violent response.

Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people.

why do gun owners want magazines that hold more rounds? Because sometimes you miss.

I have pulled a gun exactly one time in my entire life.

when nearly six hundred people get murdered a year in beautiful Gun Free Chicago, that’s not my people doing the shooting.

The gun culture is who protects our country

Why does everyone think it's illegal to have a gun in Chicago?

Because it is Chicago's gun culture. That gun culture being ruled unconstitutional hasn't caught up yet.

It was never illegal to own a gun in Chicago, as long as that gun was the right kind. There was never a time where all guns were illegal in Chicago while I have been alive.

 

[moleculo]

I haven't weighed in with a proposal yet, so here goes:

Treat fire-arms similar to cars - that is, require registration and insurance for their operation.

Registration

[*]Registration would require some sort of identification on the gun - a stamped ID, a plate added, something like that. Possibly a yearly sticker, just like we put on our license plates. The gun owner must also keep a paper receipt as well - just like you have in your car.

[*]If you are found in possession of a gun w/o ID and registration, the gun is to be immediately confiscated and will be returned when the owner presents proper papers.

[*]Registration must be renewed annually (bi-annually?). Part of the renewal process is a safety inspection, which both verifies safe operating condition of the gun as well as condition of registration tags.

[*]Safety inspection does not need to be performed by a LEO, it could simply be the guy at the shooting range, a licensed dealer, someone from your hunt-club, or pretty much anyone who has taken some basic training and says an oath.

Insurance

[*]establish some sort of liability costs associated with gun ownership. For sake of discussion, let's say $250k for loss of life and medical bills up to $250k for injuries. These liabilities are only payable if the gun was used in a crime.

[*]Gun owners must purchase insurance and proof of insurance must be presented upon request - along with registration above.

[*]Similar to cars, insurance rates can be allowed to vary, based on a number of factors such as:

[*]number of kids in house

[*]mental state of all residents

[*]gun type (based on probability that a particular gun will be used in a crime)

[*]location of owner residence - probability of gun being stolen

[*]discount for safes

[*]discount for trigger lock

[*]discount for annual gun safety courses

[*]discount for periodic range time

[*]whatever else the actuaries find that increases/decreases gun crime risk

[*]if a gun is stolen, the gun owners insurance company will still have at least a partial fiscal responsibility for above damages, so it is in their interest to ensure that owners do whatever they can to keep their weapons secure.

[*]no liabilities are to be paid when the gun was used in self-defense, including Castle Doctorine usage. That is, if a bad guy breaks into my house and I shoot him, my insurance owes him nothing.

I have no idea if anything like this has been proposed or not. IMO, this could have helped @ Sandy Hook, Va Tech, etc by providing financial incentive to keep their arms secured, as well as limit availability of illegal arms without an outright ban. I can see that if someone wants to keep a whole bunch of dangerous guns around, it's going to get expensive pretty quick if he's not adequately equipped to store them nor has proper safety certification... on the other hand, a simple 6-shot revolver that is stored in a high-quality safe and operated by someone who takes regular training will be really cheap to insure.

I don't see how the bolded is true. This woman went through all the legal mechanisms required to get her guns and used them regularly. This would have made no difference here.

I'm assuming her guns weren't stored securely - assuming this on the basis that they were used against her. Had it been a significant financial penalty for her to have multiple weapons not adequately stored in a location with a resident mental-health patient, she likely would have either stored her guns off-site or had a better safe.

Enormous assumption here.Just like you would think most people who own guns in the first place - given the dangerous nature - would have them in safes or out of the reach of their children. As parents frequently learn via tragic accidents, that's not the case.

yeah, it is an enormous assumption. I'm not really all that interested in using last week's tragedy as a means to push a pre-existing agenda, specifically laws that would not have done a damn thing in Sandy Hook:
[*]magazine size? doubt it, the shooter never interacted with police, changing magazines would not have been an impediment.

[*]close gun-show loophole - no way, these weapons were not purchased by Adam Lanza.

[*]Assault-rifle ban? sure, a scary looking rifle was used, but an assault rifle isn't inherently different than a hunting rifle.

[*]eliminate the "gun-free-zones" business? Debatable, but I don't think you are keen on that due to other irrational fears.

Beyond that, you are left with broad scale bans...ban all guns, ban all semi-automatic guns, ban all ammunition larger than a BB, ban all hand-guns, etc. While that may be desirable to some people, it is not acceptable to many others. ##### about it all you want - call everyone who doesn't agree with you a redneck, hick, gun-nerd, whatever...insult everyone who doesn't live in Gotham...it's not going to change the fact that it's really, really difficult to amend the Constitution. That ain't happening, you know this.

The NRA isn't powerful because gun manufacturers pay them, they are powerful because they have 4.3 million members who care about gun restrictions over almost everything else. I'm sorry, but that's the reality.

So, figure out a way around this. Find a compromise. Tell me something about a characteristic of guns that you can ban that would have made a difference...find some other means to protect our innocents. Give me something that the NRA may find acceptable, that has a sliver of a chance of making a difference in Sandy Hook.

 

[ATC1]

Gun guys - you should just link to this

Why did he not make this a book? This guy could be my brother. Very long read and the link to Shotguns carbine vs handgun was helpful as well.ETA: Of course there are some points I don't agree with.

 

[ATC1]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

It's your opinion. I don't think you should be afraid of guns, but the one thing I think we should all do a little better is to make a point to get to know the teachers who is responsible for your child for most of the day. Be proactive in school.

 

[ATC1]

it took 20 minutes for police to arrive after Adam Lanza broke into the school and started shooting kids.

i know if my kids went to that school i'd have appreciated a faster police response and maybe even a couple weapons carrying adults nearby or in the school capable of reacting within a minute or two at most to have confronted and killed this pyschotic loser. 20 minutes is a joke.

Was it 20 mins to get there or to get inside?I read somewhere that old protocol was to get there, assess the situation from outside and contain it, and wait for a bunch more police to show up. But that is supposedly changing so that now as long as two cops are there, they are supposed to go in.

Ill be very curious to know if officers arrived while the hundred rounds were being fired and just waited outside? Or were they just too late?

That was before Columbine. That shooting is what changed the protocol. They was outside while the shooters had full access to helpless victims.

 

[Otis]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

It's your opinion. I don't think you should be afraid of guns, but the one thing I think we should all do a little better is to make a point to get to know the teachers who is responsible for your child for most of the day. Be proactive in school.

I like your assumption that I'm a crappy parent and not involved.I don't care who the teacher is or how many parent-teacher conferences I've met them in, I'm not interested in Mrs. Lawson packing heat in my first grader's classroom.

 

[ATC1]

You seem like a guy I would like to sit back and have a few while discussing things without anyone losing their cool. But you can not seem to understand that no one is saying arm all teachers.

 

[ATC1]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

It's your opinion. I don't think you should be afraid of guns, but the one thing I think we should all do a little better is to make a point to get to know the teachers who is responsible for your child for most of the day. Be proactive in school.

I like your assumption that I'm a crappy parent and not involved.I don't care who the teacher is or how many parent-teacher conferences I've met them in, I'm not interested in Mrs. Lawson packing heat in my first grader's classroom.

It wasn't to you personally. Hence the part were I say, "We should all do". If you take it personally, I apologize. The last thing I would want is for some person on a internet board that doesn't know who I am to tell me that I am a bad parent.

 

[moleculo]

...

The simple fact is, I don't want my kids' kindergarten teacher to be the sort of person I think you need to be to pull the gun, pull the trigger, and put two in the chest, one in the head. And I think I'm just fine on that count. I think a lot of people feel that way. For good or ill, I think most of use are of the opinion that arming teachers is a bad idea because you get all of the risk with minimal chance at a reward except in some very limited cases - ex-combat military and/or ex-field agent/officer law enforcement. I have zero problem with them being allowed to keep taking refresher courses and carry, provided that they're not picking up other people's little kids with a gun on their person. But I don't consider them civilians. Kind of a "once a Marine..." thing there in my head, anywya.

I remember my elementary school teachers. I'm pretty sure Mr. Schwartz, as mean an old ******* as he was, couldn't do it. And he's the best example I can think of from my elementary school. He was even in the army before he lost his marbles.

re: the bolded above: a gun-free zone prevents these guys from carrying. That's all we are asking for here - if someone where trained to handle a gun and was willing to jump through whatever hoops the State wanted to put in place, maybe it's worth considering.The real impact, by the way, is not that there is an armed kindergarten teacher. The deterrent is that there would be a probability > 0.00 that a shooter would find armed resistance. In theory, that may prevent an attack.

 

[ffldrew]

NRA head Wayne LaPierre crying that its every thing but guns in his press statement

 

[timschochet]

I am watching Wayne LaPierre. So far, no specific proposals- except he apparently calling for a national database..... for the mentally ill!!!

He keeps attacking the media and video games. And protests keep interrupting him.

 

[ffldrew]

Now a lady going off at Wayne LaPierre

 

[Blick]

I want public schools to remain gun free zones. I don't want teachers or principals armed with guns. I don't care if they're trained with them or not, I don't want them having them. A security guard is a different story, though I'm not sure I want the security guard armed with a lethal weapon around children either.Whatever solution(s) there are to this problem, this particular one is unacceptable to me.

Why is it unacceptable?

Do you have children?

Yes I do. I also know the administrators and teachers at my kids school very well and would trust them if they wished to arm themselves. If they didnt then I would definitely be in favor of using the School Districts own Security Services, who are already armed, to serve as guards at the schools that dont already have resource officers provided by the local police and sheriffs departments.

I was asking Rich.As a father, I can't imagine a more bizarre way to destroy the innocence of a child than to have their 1st grade teachers wearing guns on them at all times as these kids are learning colors and alphabets. Sick. That's just not a world I'm interested in raising my children in. Beyond that, I guess you're more trusting than I am, because dozens of guns spread out all over my child's school just doesn't give me a warm feeling. It's creepy.I can't say for sure I would have felt that way when I was single -- maybe then I might even have thought it could be a decent idea. But I don't understand any parent getting behind this.

It's your opinion. I don't think you should be afraid of guns, but the one thing I think we should all do a little better is to make a point to get to know the teachers who is responsible for your child for most of the day. Be proactive in school.

I like your assumption that I'm a crappy parent and not involved.I don't care who the teacher is or how many parent-teacher conferences I've met them in, I'm not interested in Mrs. Lawson packing heat in my first grader's classroom.

Whether the teacher's at our school carry or not, I would love for it to be well advertised that they do.

 

[ffldrew]

This "woe is me" stance is an affront to the 20 dead kids

 

[timschochet]

His solution is more guns. Of course.

 

[timschochet]

Armed guards in every school.