***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

I'm pretty confident this guy did not obtain his gun legally.

The whole purpose of the laws I am in favor of is to make the illegal purchase of firearms more difficult. That's why we need a national database with all guns registered in it, and who owns them, in order to help law enforcement isolate the illegal ones that aren't on the list. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

It's not difficult to understand, but it is difficult to see how it will work. We can't even properly update our current exclusion lists and those should be infinitely easier to maintain.

I think we can do some things to limit accidental deaths, but this guy was a homicidal maniac. I doubt even an all out ban would keep guns out of the hands of someone like this.

The reason we can't properly update our current lists is because Congress won't spend the money on it. The reason they won't is that the NRA lobbies against spending any money on it. They also lobby against having a permanent head of the ATF- there hasn't been one for years.I believe that if we wanted to spend the time and money to have a national database, it WOULD work- and it would be a thousand times cheaper than having armed guards at every school. We have never attempted to have a national database, and there is no rational reason not to have one. There are plenty of irrational reasons- the main one being that the government will use it to seize every gun. But only irrational people have this fear.

LaPierre says the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. But I believe there is another way- to make it more difficult for the bad guy to get the gun in the first place. Maybe we can make it a little harder, or maybe we can't, but the NRA continues to try to make it impossible for us to even make the attempt.

 

[Henry Ford]

For those of you that think having armed security at your kids schools, think again.

School Obama's Daughters Attend Has 11 Armed Guards Some interesting news has broken in the wake of the latest push for gun control by President Obama and Senate Democrats: Obama sends his kids to a school where armed guards are used as a matter of fact.The school, Sidwell Friends School in Washington, DC, has 11 security officers and is seeking to hire a new police officer as we speak. If you dismiss this by saying, "Of course they have armed guards -- they get Secret Service protection," then you've missed the larger point. The larger point is that this is standard operating procedure for the school, period. And this is the reason people like NBC's David Gregory send their kids to Sidwell, they know their kids will be protected from the carnage that befell kids at a school where armed guards weren't used (and weren't even allowed).Shame on President Obama for seeking more gun control and for trying to prevent the parents of other school children from doing what he has clearly done for his own. His children sit under the protection guns afford, while the children of regular Americans are sacrificed.

The targets on the president and his family are a little bit different than the targets on you and yours. That really needs to be explained?

You didn't even read it did you, not too bright are you.

It's a private school that charges $32k per student per year. And has over 1000 students. Do the math.

So what is the dollar number you put on your kids life? You would think that is something is WRONG it would be wrong for everyone.So what value do all you guys put on your kids lives? At what price are your kids worth being protected?

Maybe I'm missing something. Hasn't essentially everyone in here said that it would be okay to hve armed police officers or military at schools?

Not a regular reader in this thread. I'm okay with locally grown organic cops in schools. ABSOLUTELY NOT OKAY with random military vets carrying weapons in public schools. That's insane!

I didn't say random vets. Someone earlier suggested putting on duty military at the schools.

 

[Jackstraw]

I remember the NRA coming out for arming every black teen when Trayvon Martin got shot.

 

[Widbil83]

Ron Paul right as usual-

We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided ‘security,’ a world far too many Americans now seem to accepts or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.” “The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped. While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence.” “Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-slams-nra-proposal-for-armed-guards-in-schools-govt-security-just-another-kind-of-violence/

 

[boots11234]

Ron Paul right as usual-

We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided ‘security,’ a world far too many Americans now seem to accepts or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.” “The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped. While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence.” “Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-slams-nra-proposal-for-armed-guards-in-schools-govt-security-just-another-kind-of-violence/

Amen

 

[derek245583]

My sister told me that her school has a bucket of golf balls in each room. The students are supposed to pelt the intruder

Lol @ a 6 year old throwing a golf ball anywhere near hard enough to distract a person with a gun

 

[tommyGunZ]

Ron Paul right as usual-

We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided ‘security,’ a world far too many Americans now seem to accepts or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.”

“The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped. While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence.”

“Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-slams-nra-proposal-for-armed-guards-in-schools-govt-security-just-another-kind-of-violence/

Why isn't the US the safest place on earth if "more guns = less crime" Dr. Paul?

 

[Mr Two Cents]

National database? What could ever go wrong with that.Hope the newspaper gets sued out of existence by those that have been shown as soft targets.

New York newspaper faces backlash after publishing map of gun permit holdersA local New York newspaper is drawing the ire of its readers after publishing an interactive map that shows the names and addresses of thousands of residents who have handgun permits. The online map was published by The Journal News along with an article under the headline: "The gun owner next door: What you don't know about the weapons in your neighborhood." The newspaper obtained, and then published, the names and addresses of pistol permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties through a Freedom of Information Act request. "Do you fools realize that you also made a map for criminals to use to find homes to rob that have no guns in them to protect themselves?" one reader wrote on Facebook. "You have just destroyed the privacy of these law abiding citizens and by releasing this list, you have equated them to that of sex offenders and murders," wrote another. "These are law abiding gun owners, they are no danger to anyone except for criminals. And with this information you have made them targets for both criminals and anti gun lobbyist who i am sure are going to treat them like monsters."

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I like that the newspaper did this.

 

[Mister Martie]

Is this what journalism has come to? Quoting comments on Facebook?

 

[ScottNorwood]

My link

 

[MaxThreshold]

I like that the newspaper did this.

Sure you did. I'm sure you won't mind if we publish who you voted for in the last X elections and all of your online internet activity.

 

[timschochet]

National database? What could ever go wrong with that.Hope the newspaper gets sued out of existence by those that have been shown as soft targets.

New York newspaper faces backlash after publishing map of gun permit holdersA local New York newspaper is drawing the ire of its readers after publishing an interactive map that shows the names and addresses of thousands of residents who have handgun permits. The online map was published by The Journal News along with an article under the headline: "The gun owner next door: What you don't know about the weapons in your neighborhood." The newspaper obtained, and then published, the names and addresses of pistol permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties through a Freedom of Information Act request. "Do you fools realize that you also made a map for criminals to use to find homes to rob that have no guns in them to protect themselves?" one reader wrote on Facebook. "You have just destroyed the privacy of these law abiding citizens and by releasing this list, you have equated them to that of sex offenders and murders," wrote another. "These are law abiding gun owners, they are no danger to anyone except for criminals. And with this information you have made them targets for both criminals and anti gun lobbyist who i am sure are going to treat them like monsters."

I'm betting you got that from Free Republic.

 

[3C's]

National database? What could ever go wrong with that.Hope the newspaper gets sued out of existence by those that have been shown as soft targets.

New York newspaper faces backlash after publishing map of gun permit holdersA local New York newspaper is drawing the ire of its readers after publishing an interactive map that shows the names and addresses of thousands of residents who have handgun permits. The online map was published by The Journal News along with an article under the headline: "The gun owner next door: What you don't know about the weapons in your neighborhood." The newspaper obtained, and then published, the names and addresses of pistol permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties through a Freedom of Information Act request. "Do you fools realize that you also made a map for criminals to use to find homes to rob that have no guns in them to protect themselves?" one reader wrote on Facebook. "You have just destroyed the privacy of these law abiding citizens and by releasing this list, you have equated them to that of sex offenders and murders," wrote another. "These are law abiding gun owners, they are no danger to anyone except for criminals. And with this information you have made them targets for both criminals and anti gun lobbyist who i am sure are going to treat them like monsters."

I'm betting you got that from Free Republic.

It's there but linked to Fox News.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I like that the newspaper did this.

Sure you did. I'm sure you won't mind if we publish who you voted for in the last X elections and all of your online internet activity.

The registered gun owner information is public information (hence the FOIA request).

 

[ren hoek]

Ron Paul right as usual-

We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided ‘security,’ a world far too many Americans now seem to accepts or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.”

“The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped. While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence.”

“Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-slams-nra-proposal-for-armed-guards-in-schools-govt-security-just-another-kind-of-violence/

Why isn't the US the safest place on earth if "more guns = less crime" Dr. Paul?

Guns in gun-free zones = unarmed civilians (or "less guns") & mass shootings. Hope that helps.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Guns in gun-free zones = unarmed civilians (or "less guns") & mass shootings. Hope that helps.

Has anybody here provided stats on the percentage of killings that take place in gun free zones?

 

[5 digit know nothing]

UK Homicide rate 1960 through 2010:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9899/ukhomicides.png

Of course this is not showing just gun-related homicides because that would be biased.

Handguns in the US account for about 70% of all gun-related homicides.

UK bans handguns in 1997, then sees a 20% surge in homicides.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

Russia has nearly triple the homicide rate of the US (11.5 vs. 4.8)

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Russia is 12,750,000

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The homicide rate in Brazil had been steadily declining, but has bounced back up from 2006 onwards and is above 25 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Brazil is 14,800,0001 to 17,600,0002

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

 

[timschochet]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Canada is 9,950,000 (pop: 34,482,779) (intentional homicide rate: 1.6)

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Italy is 7,000,000 (pop: 60,626,442) (intentional homicide rate: 0.9)

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Norway is 1,320,000 (pop: 4,952,000) (intentional homicide rate: 0.6)

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

 

[timschochet]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

Not in this country it doesn't. In the United States, its pretty clear to me that it's the exact opposite. But regardless- the proposals on the table don't have anything to do with this.

 

[Sammy3469]

So glad a certified nut witha felony in his past can gets bushmaster and lay a trap for volunteer first responders. Keep up the good work NRA. Really good work

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Can someone please explain why law abiding citizens meed automatic weapons?

 

[Henry Ford]

Can someone please explain why law abiding citizens meed automatic weapons?

As soon as you give an example of a law abiding citizen with an automatic weapon, I'm sure someone will find that relevant enough to address.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Can someone please explain why law abiding citizens meed automatic weapons?

Aren't automatic weapons already banned? Do you know the difference between automatic and semi-automatic? Do YOU even know what you're talking about?

 

[MaxThreshold]

So glad a certified nut witha felony in his past can gets bushmaster and lay a trap for volunteer first responders. Keep up the good work NRA. Really good work

Pretty sure a felon isn't supposed to have weapons in the first place, so you're post doesn't make any sense. Don't we already have laws prohibiting felons from owning weapons? How is this the NRA's fault?But isn't this a great example that shows that gun laws only affect LAW ABIDING citizens, not CRIMINALS?

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

God, you just wasted a lot of time to make yourself look stupid.

Link from a friend

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Seems obvious but there you go.

show me the data, I showed you mine.

 

[StrikeS2k]

So glad a certified nut witha felony in his past can gets bushmaster and lay a trap for volunteer first responders. Keep up the good work NRA. Really good work

Maybe the most ignorant, dumbest post evah. Congrats.

 

[Otis]

Ron Paul right as usual-

We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided ‘security,’ a world far too many Americans now seem to accepts or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.”

“The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped. While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence.”

“Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-slams-nra-proposal-for-armed-guards-in-schools-govt-security-just-another-kind-of-violence/

Why isn't the US the safest place on earth if "more guns = less crime" Dr. Paul?

Guns in gun-free zones = unarmed civilians (or "less guns") & mass shootings. Hope that helps.

Just because it works this way on Xbox doesn't mean it's the same in real life.

 

[Otis]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

God, you just wasted a lot of time to make yourself look stupid.

Link from a friend

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Seems obvious but there you go.

show me the data, I showed you mine.

He included cites in his post. Should he come to your house with a whiteboard and draw you a picture?

 

[Otis]

How many of you apes went out back and "shot guns" after Christmas dinner?

 

[MaxThreshold]

How many of you apes went out back and "shot guns" after Christmas dinner?

How many more freedoms did you decide to give up after Christmas dinner because you're scared like a little girl?

 

[Mr Two Cents]

How many of you apes went out back and "shot guns" after Christmas dinner?

Wife and I went out on Christmas Eve afternoon and shot our 20ga to see how the #3 buck would tear up a target. Wanted to make sure she could handle the recoil.

 

[parasaurolophus]

The 1997 handgun ban as I previously mentioned was the anti-gun legislation I am talking about and you chose two different years which still does not disprove my point that banning handguns in the US does not predicate UK levels of homicide. There are many more factors that differentiate the US from the UK.

Not least of which would be a history of other severe gun regulations in the UK. My point is that choosing the most recent legislation is arbitrary and misleading if you're going to act as if, "Look, they banned handguns and their murder rate stayed roughly constant. Therefore, banning handguns in the US won't do much either."You're ignoring that they were already at an extremely low murder rate and they already had a number of laws restricting gun ownership and use on the books. So you would expect the improvement to be rather incremental. We, on the other hand, have a fairly high murder rate and can't get much in the way of gun regulation on the books at all without a 2nd Amendment challenge. So to attempt to syllogize and say, "Well, they banned handguns and not much happened. There's no reason to expect it would do much for us, either" is myopic.

You, and others, also seem to like linking to articles that cite year-over-year percentage changes in the UK to feign shock that they have gotten so much worse while not citing to level per population statistics which show that the UK has one of the lowest gun murder rates in the world.

Can you explain why gun related crime went up so much after the ban in the UK? Doesn't that strike you as very odd and perhaps at least put the possibility out there that the bans really have nothing to do with the current decrease? Isn't that at least discussion worthy?

Why are 50% of the statistics cited by the pro-gun crowd on this page false?

The smaller and more custom you define your statistics, the higher likelihood you have that what you're seeing is not something explanatory but statistical noise that is cherry-picked to see a point. There's lots of reasons for what you're claiming, not least of which is that you haven't compared it to any other timeframe of any other nation. But even insofar as you're trying to use the statistic, it's wrong. It's not a "gun ban". It's a, "handgun ban". It's possible, and actually factually accurate, that many of the gun crimes committed in the UK are with things other than handguns. But you could also just have statistical variance, increased gang activity, and anything else. Because if you really want to, "have a discussion" on the effect of guns in society, you'd look at the Harvard Lit Review which I cited pages ago. The conclusion? More guns = more murders. They looked at all sorts of different samples and held constant all sorts of different variables. And more guns = more murders. More guns. More murders. So you people can selectively choose a sample from a more or less arbitrary starting point (the UK has had stringent gun regulations for a century, the handgun ban is just the latest) and you can continue to try to cite their year-over-year differentials to avoid doing a comparison of the UK to everybody else to mask that what you're talking about is an increase in a comparatively very low number but if you want to move beyond the, "Oh, I just found this number interesting" argument and talk real numbers, more guns equals more murders.

It's that easy. And it's not that interesting.

The bottom line is that in England. The place that people love to strut out there as the example of how great a ban can work has concrete data showing that gun violence went UP after the ban. It did so for years. So why do you think the gun violence went up in the years that followed? If you are going to dismiss the data please explain why.

Or go ahead and drop some more Blah blah harvard lit review blah blah.

 

[Mello]

I like that the newspaper did this.

Sure you did. I'm sure you won't mind if we publish who you voted for in the last X elections and all of your online internet activity.

The registered gun owner information is public information (hence the FOIA request).

Which is one of the problems with gun registration. Whether you own a gun or not should be a completely private matter.

 

[Mello]

Can someone please explain why law abiding citizens meed automatic weapons?

No reason other than they want to. And that's good enough for me. People do things everyday that they don't need to do and it's none of our business.

 

[parasaurolophus]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

God, you just wasted a lot of time to make yourself look stupid.

Link from a friend

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Seems obvious but there you go.

Have you read the literature they refer to?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-154307/Gun-crime-soars-35.htmlPerhaps they did some things in addition to just banning guns? Maybe we should look into those things.

 

[derek245583]

How many of you apes went out back and "shot guns" after Christmas dinner?

How many more freedoms did you decide to give up after Christmas dinner because you're scared like a little girl?

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

God, you just wasted a lot of time to make yourself look stupid.

Link from a friend

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Seems obvious but there you go.

show me the data, I showed you mine.

He included cites in his post. Should he come to your house with a whiteboard and draw you a picture?

Boom.http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/violent-crimes-and-handgun-ownership/

Proving Cause and Effect

The National Academies report noted that drawing a causal inference is "always complicated and, in the behavioral and social sciences, fraught with uncertainty."

Charles F. Wellford, chair of the committees that authored the report and a professor of criminology at the University of Maryland, says it’s the causal relationship that people are interested in when the question of guns and crime is broached. "While scientists can make the distinction between association and causation, in the real world the interest is in the latter," Wellford tells FactCheck.org, noting that this is his opinion, not the panel’s. "Work that knowingly reports findings that do not meet a causal test knowing they will be used as if they do can only produce confusion especially in such contentious issues."

The report said that "case-control studies" (the urban-area-to-urban-area type of comparisons) "show that violence is positively associated with firearms ownership." What the National Academies calls "ecological studies" (those comparing large areas, such as countries) "provide contradictory evidence on violence and firearms." But neither have shown a causal relationship. Both studies fail to address the multiple factors involved in the decision to buy a gun – owning a gun is not a random decision, said the report. And data on gun ownership may be insufficient (such numbers are based on surveys). It also faulted ecological studies that look at large geographic areas, saying, "there is no way of knowing whether the homicides or suicides occurred in the same areas in which the firearms are owned."

In comparing the United States to industrialized democracies, the Academies says data show the U.S. has the highest rate of homicide and firearm-related homicide. But this also raises a chicken-and-egg question. "A high level of violence may be a cause of a high level of firearms availability instead of the other way around."

Exactly what I said when I was "making myself look stupid."

 

[sporthenry]

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Switzerland is 3,400,000

Switzerland has a population of 7,907,000

The homicide rate in Switzerland is 0.7 per 100k

Who cares? I want a national database. I want limits on high capacity magazines. And if Chaos Commish is correct that certain rifles will only work with high capacity magazines (I can't confirm this anywhere) then I want those rifles banned. I don't give a #### about Switzerland.

more guns ≠ more murders

God, you just wasted a lot of time to make yourself look stupid.

Link from a friend

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Seems obvious but there you go.

show me the data, I showed you mine.

He included cites in his post. Should he come to your house with a whiteboard and draw you a picture?

Boom.http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/violent-crimes-and-handgun-ownership/

Proving Cause and Effect

The National Academies report noted that drawing a causal inference is "always complicated and, in the behavioral and social sciences, fraught with uncertainty."

Charles F. Wellford, chair of the committees that authored the report and a professor of criminology at the University of Maryland, says it’s the causal relationship that people are interested in when the question of guns and crime is broached. "While scientists can make the distinction between association and causation, in the real world the interest is in the latter," Wellford tells FactCheck.org, noting that this is his opinion, not the panel’s. "Work that knowingly reports findings that do not meet a causal test knowing they will be used as if they do can only produce confusion especially in such contentious issues."

The report said that "case-control studies" (the urban-area-to-urban-area type of comparisons) "show that violence is positively associated with firearms ownership." What the National Academies calls "ecological studies" (those comparing large areas, such as countries) "provide contradictory evidence on violence and firearms." But neither have shown a causal relationship. Both studies fail to address the multiple factors involved in the decision to buy a gun – owning a gun is not a random decision, said the report. And data on gun ownership may be insufficient (such numbers are based on surveys). It also faulted ecological studies that look at large geographic areas, saying, "there is no way of knowing whether the homicides or suicides occurred in the same areas in which the firearms are owned."

In comparing the United States to industrialized democracies, the Academies says data show the U.S. has the highest rate of homicide and firearm-related homicide. But this also raises a chicken-and-egg question. "A high level of violence may be a cause of a high level of firearms availability instead of the other way around."

So what you are saying is that data is inconclusive. So this whole, arm everyone thing has as much backing as the de-arm everyone thing. So we are back at square one and you don't think anything needs to be done on gun control?

 

[Otis]

How many of you apes went out back and "shot guns" after Christmas dinner?

How many more freedoms did you decide to give up after Christmas dinner because you're scared like a little girl?

Setting aside your lack of judgment, what's even worse is you guys have a terrible sense of humor. This was really pretty funny to you?

 

[Sammy3469]

So glad a certified nut witha felony in his past can gets bushmaster and lay a trap for volunteer first responders. Keep up the good work NRA. Really good work

Maybe the most ignorant, dumbest post evah. Congrats.

The fact that you don't get the pint that the NRAs advicacy for lenient after market sales let this guy get this gun shows more about your ignorant response than my point. But then again not much the NRA lobbies for makes good sense

 

[sporthenry]

National database? What could ever go wrong with that.Hope the newspaper gets sued out of existence by those that have been shown as soft targets.

New York newspaper faces backlash after publishing map of gun permit holdersA local New York newspaper is drawing the ire of its readers after publishing an interactive map that shows the names and addresses of thousands of residents who have handgun permits. The online map was published by The Journal News along with an article under the headline: "The gun owner next door: What you don't know about the weapons in your neighborhood." The newspaper obtained, and then published, the names and addresses of pistol permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties through a Freedom of Information Act request. "Do you fools realize that you also made a map for criminals to use to find homes to rob that have no guns in them to protect themselves?" one reader wrote on Facebook. "You have just destroyed the privacy of these law abiding citizens and by releasing this list, you have equated them to that of sex offenders and murders," wrote another. "These are law abiding gun owners, they are no danger to anyone except for criminals. And with this information you have made them targets for both criminals and anti gun lobbyist who i am sure are going to treat them like monsters."

"Oh no, they found out I'm a soft target" said no non-gun owner ever. They can tell everyone I don't have a gun. I have a dog and a security system. Seems to do just the trick. If they were that worried about being a soft target, wouldn't they buy a gun and become a hard target? Don't speak for us "soft targets."

 

[JHuber77]

Why not renew the "assault weapons" ban?

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/

Everyone on both sides of gun control should read this article.

 

[pizzatyme]

There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those with guns and those that dig. Now dig.

1 make it easy for doctors to put "at risk" patients on a ban list.

2 anything more than a single action rifle requires a waiting period and additional training.

3 limit guns to X number of rounds per minute. Experts can solve for X.

4 create a national registry (gotta start somewhere)

5 create a "sin tax" applicable for gun shows. The experts can decide what constitutes a gun show and what the tax amount is to be ( I say the higher the better)

I'd start with all or most of those.