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***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (3 Viewers)

How many is enough?

As many as I feel appropriate to be able to protect my family as I see fit.
Because you have chosen to live in our society, that decision is not yours to make.
Actually, right now it is and should remain this way. I can own as many "high capacity magazines" as I wish. I can own as many hand guns , shot guns, rifles, etc. that I want.
There are limitations. You can't own rocket launchers. And from what I understand, there are severe limitations on how many automatic rifles you can own, if any. Brace yourself; there are more limitations coming your way.
You keep repeating this. Are you clairvoyant, or just being inflammatory? Maybe if you keep telling yourself this it will come true? Or, if the same politicians keep proposing the same thing over and over and over and over and just one time they try it at exactly the right time it might work (... something about a blind squirrel and a nut... )?
Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I'm fairly confident that the two issues I have been pushing all along in this thread will happen in some form.
Tim, I've warmed up to you over the last 1500 or so posts I've been in this thread. Not because we agree, or that you make great points, but you're fairly honest and if nothing else, you keep the conversation going. I'm going to be conspicuously absent from here for a few days. I have some things to take care of from now 'till Thursday, so I guess we'll get to continue after hearing the ***OFFICIAL WHITE HOUSE PLANS*** this week. Keep in mind, just because they say that they want to do something, it still has to go to vote. If EOs are given, they can only be to enforce existing law in a different manner and still have to pass scrutiny by the SCOTUS (not that legality matters in the issue of an EO). Unfortunately, nothing is possible that will make both sides happy. I'm expecting whatever happens will be to appease the middle of the spectrum and that the extremes on both ends will be disappointed (the extreme anti-gun side will certainly be disappointed either way).
 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case. That will certainly skew the numbers down. Another thing to consider is that their murder rates haven't dropped since their '97 ban, but have actually increased. There is no evidence to support the idea that taking their guns away has left fewer people dead. Look it up. I'll even save you time. You can just skip to page 32. Looks like they are coming off of an all time high stretch of years post ban, and have settled right back in to where they were from 1980-1990. Or you can believe that blowhard Piers Morgan.
 
Let's go no shotguns as Christmas presents for 12-year olds for now.http://thecontributor.com/12-year-old-unintentionally-shoots-and-kills-cousin-gun-he-got-christmas-present
I got a 20-gauge shotgun for Christmas when I was about that age.
How in the world did you manage to avoid shooting yourself or someone else?
Don't go there.
Oh, so you are one of the ones who did? I'm sorry. I understand now why you project us to be too stupid to avoid doing the same.
This is extremely dickish.
 
Let's go no shotguns as Christmas presents for 12-year olds for now.http://thecontributor.com/12-year-old-unintentionally-shoots-and-kills-cousin-gun-he-got-christmas-present
I got a 20-gauge shotgun for Christmas when I was about that age.
How in the world did you manage to avoid shooting yourself or someone else?
Don't go there.
Oh, so you are one of the ones who did? I'm sorry. I understand now why you project us to be too stupid to avoid doing the same.
This is extremely dickish.
If true, yes, it was out of line and I shouldn't have gone there with his warning. My apologies.
 
How many is enough?

As many as I feel appropriate to be able to protect my family as I see fit.
Because you have chosen to live in our society, that decision is not yours to make.
Actually, right now it is and should remain this way. I can own as many "high capacity magazines" as I wish. I can own as many hand guns , shot guns, rifles, etc. that I want.
The question is not on how many. If you want to have 240 shotguns, silly but fine. The question is in what types.And no, the decision isn't up to you. Try buying a bazooka.
Where in my post did I say anything about any "illegal" weapons (i.e. bazooka)? Hand guns, shot guns, and rifles are all legal. Automatic rifles are very regulated (as they should be). In my opinion, the line drawn by current law between legal/illegal weapons is set based on usefullness of that weapon to the private citizen. Protecting my home with a bazooka would be a bit counter productive and dangerous to family, and are not legal. Hand guns, shot guns, and rifles are an effective tool of home protection. As such, are legal. Why do you want to take them from me?
I would totally buy a bazooka if they were legal.
 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case. That will certainly skew the numbers down. Another thing to consider is that their murder rates haven't dropped since their '97 ban, but have actually increased. There is no evidence to support the idea that taking their guns away has left fewer people dead. Look it up. I'll even save you time. You can just skip to page 32. Looks like they are coming off of an all time high stretch of years post ban, and have settled right back in to where they were from 1980-1990. Or you can believe that blowhard Piers Morgan.
:own3d: yet again
 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case. That will certainly skew the numbers down. Another thing to consider is that their murder rates haven't dropped since their '97 ban, but have actually increased. There is no evidence to support the idea that taking their guns away has left fewer people dead. Look it up. I'll even save you time. You can just skip to page 32. Looks like they are coming off of an all time high stretch of years post ban, and have settled right back in to where they were from 1980-1990. Or you can believe that blowhard Piers Morgan.
You guys keep talking about the "1997 gun ban" in the UK. Do you think that's the only gun legislation they have on the books?
 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case.
This is interesting.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?

 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case. That will certainly skew the numbers down. Another thing to consider is that their murder rates haven't dropped since their '97 ban, but have actually increased. There is no evidence to support the idea that taking their guns away has left fewer people dead. Look it up. I'll even save you time. You can just skip to page 32. Looks like they are coming off of an all time high stretch of years post ban, and have settled right back in to where they were from 1980-1990. Or you can believe that blowhard Piers Morgan.
You guys keep talking about the "1997 gun ban" in the UK. Do you think that's the only gun legislation they have on the books?
17.9 2002/2003
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
I'd rather be hit by a semi auto then a musket any day. At least there is a chance of surviving a semi auto.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
Aim all 3 at the ground a foot in front of you and pull the trigger. Let us know the results!
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
A musket was the soldier's weapon of the times. Much more apples to apples than you care to admit. Rifles were more the sniper's tool then, and they were also in use by private citizens. "Assault weapons" are hardly more lethal than grampa's old hunting rifle. In terms of energy transmitted, the AR-15 and AK47 are vastly underpowered, but I've already linked that table and nobody seemed to care.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
Aim all 3 at the ground a foot in front of you and pull the trigger. Let us know the results!
I don't think the ground is the intended target when discussing lethality. Nor is one person.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
So your answer would be similar if someone said a Honda Accord was a modern day horse and buggy? But for the record, a horse and buggy had a horse and the suspension was lacking.-or-A Honda Accord with four doors is much more like an M1 Abrams Tank than a horse and buggy.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
I haven't equated them with either of those things. But for the record, the musket was single-shot and hard to aim accurately.
Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines are much more like bazookas than muskets in terms of lethality.
A musket was the soldier's weapon of the times. Much more apples to apples than you care to admit. Rifles were more the sniper's tool then, and they were also in use by private citizens. "Assault weapons" are hardly more lethal than grampa's old hunting rifle. In terms of energy transmitted, the AR-15 and AK47 are vastly underpowered, but I've already linked that table and nobody seemed to care.
I don't need to look at a table to know that a weapon that requires reloading after one shot is not anywhere close to as lethal as one that allows for many shots without reloading.
 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case.
This is interesting.
Also not responded to. :coffee:
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
Conversely you and others on this page are trying to limit the weapons as only those available at the time the document was written and ignoring all technological advances while at the same time trying to draw a line in the sand at the lowest possible threshold. Semiautomatic weapons WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES are the weapon of choice by the police to protect themselves from the bad guys and has already been pointed out a number of times by cookiemonster, the public trends towards using the same technology that police use. The police are not running around with nuclear weapons and bazookas to defend themselves. :wall:
 
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Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.

So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
Conversely you and others on this page are trying to limit the weapons as only those available at the time the document was written and ignoring all technological advances while at the same time trying to draw a line in the sand at the lowest possible threshold. Semiautomatic weapons WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES are the weapon of choice by the police to protect themselves from the bad guys and has already been pointed out a number of times by cookiemonster, the public trends towards using the same technology that police use. The police are not running around with nuclear weapons and bazookas to defend themselves. :wall:
Says who?I'm saying we've accepted that the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment has been thwarted. SCOTUS has said, and people have accepted, that individuals cannot own weapons which would be necessary to overthrow the US government. I think there's still an embedded right of self-protection while at home. For things beyond that, it just becomes a matter of social policy. That's not saying any individual thing is in or out.

 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case.
This is interesting.
Also not responded to. :coffee:
:shrug:The UK consistently has lower murder rates than the US even in UN data which attempts to standardize reporting.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
Conversely you and others on this page are trying to limit the weapons as only those available at the time the document was written and ignoring all technological advances while at the same time trying to draw a line in the sand at the lowest possible threshold. Semiautomatic weapons WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES are the weapon of choice by the police to protect themselves from the bad guys and has already been pointed out a number of times by cookiemonster, the public trends towards using the same technology that police use. The police are not running around with nuclear weapons and bazookas to defend themselves. :wall:
Actually one correction, a 30 round magazine for the ar is not considered hi cap, that's standard issue. A 100 round drum, would be a better analogy.
 
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.

So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
Conversely you and others on this page are trying to limit the weapons as only those available at the time the document was written and ignoring all technological advances while at the same time trying to draw a line in the sand at the lowest possible threshold. Semiautomatic weapons WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES are the weapon of choice by the police to protect themselves from the bad guys and has already been pointed out a number of times by cookiemonster, the public trends towards using the same technology that police use. The police are not running around with nuclear weapons and bazookas to defend themselves. :wall:
Says who?I'm saying we've accepted that the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment has been thwarted. SCOTUS has said, and people have accepted, that individuals cannot own weapons which would be necessary to overthrow the US government. I think there's still an embedded right of self-protection while at home. For things beyond that, it just becomes a matter of social policy. That's not saying any individual thing is in or out.
Says anyone trying to ban semiautomatic weapons with high capacity magazines by pointing at single fire weapons as the norm. SCOTUS has only ruled on cases brought to it, I don't remember seeing a case the SCOTUS ruled on stating that it thwarted the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment, good one. :lmao: "U.S. vs Miller" ruled that the 2nd Amendment protects only arms of the type in common use by the military when it ruled against Miller who had been convicted of possession of an illegal sawed-off shotgun. Since sawed-off shotguns were not in use by the military, the court upheld the conviction.

"Heller vs D.C.": The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Guess what is becoming the "common use for lawful purposes" today? You got it, semiautomatic pistols and rifles with what you are coining as "high capacity magazines".

 
'Matthias said:
Semiautomatic rifles are the equivalent of the modern day musket. The extremists sounding like a broken record trying to equate high capacity magazines with nuclear weapons and bazookas...c'mon really is that the best counter you have?
Missing the point.People are trying to say that the Second Amendment is inviolate. They're trying to say that they need to be able to buy any weapon that they want for their own security and to secure against a tyrannical government. The point is that the Second Amendment already is compromised. There's a lot of heavy-duty weapons that the government has regulated and prohibited you from owning, and nobody seems all too upset about that.

So there's vested and accepted power in the government to regulate. The only question is what regulation is useful, necessary, and doesn't unduly infringe.
Conversely you and others on this page are trying to limit the weapons as only those available at the time the document was written and ignoring all technological advances while at the same time trying to draw a line in the sand at the lowest possible threshold. Semiautomatic weapons WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES are the weapon of choice by the police to protect themselves from the bad guys and has already been pointed out a number of times by cookiemonster, the public trends towards using the same technology that police use. The police are not running around with nuclear weapons and bazookas to defend themselves. :wall:
Says who?I'm saying we've accepted that the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment has been thwarted. SCOTUS has said, and people have accepted, that individuals cannot own weapons which would be necessary to overthrow the US government. I think there's still an embedded right of self-protection while at home. For things beyond that, it just becomes a matter of social policy. That's not saying any individual thing is in or out.
Says anyone trying to ban semiautomatic weapons with high capacity magazines by pointing at single fire weapons as the norm. SCOTUS has only ruled on cases brought to it, I don't remember seeing a case the SCOTUS ruled on stating that it thwarted the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment, good one. :lmao: "U.S. vs Miller" ruled that the 2nd Amendment protects only arms of the type in common use by the military when it ruled against Miller who had been convicted of possession of an illegal sawed-off shotgun. Since sawed-off shotguns were not in use by the military, the court upheld the conviction.

"Heller vs D.C.": The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Guess what is becoming the "common use for lawful purposes" today? You got it, semiautomatic pistols and rifles with what you are coining as "high capacity magazines".
Your ability to misattribute and confuse issues is really quite remarkable.
Sorry to hear you hate the U.S. Constitution which this great nation was founded on. Perhaps you need to go find your own nation with your rainbows and unicorns laws to protect you.
 
Question for 5 Digit Know Nothing: you keep implying that a ban on high capacity magazines would violate the 2nd Amendment. Yet we had such a ban in place for 10 years as part of the federal AWB. If you're correct, then why wasn't that law challenged and overturned by the Supreme Court?

 
Question for 5 Digit Know Nothing: you keep implying that a ban on high capacity magazines would violate the 2nd Amendment. Yet we had such a ban in place for 10 years as part of the federal AWB. If you're correct, then why wasn't that law challenged and overturned by the Supreme Court?
Well, it took them 32 years to overturn DC's handgun ban. Heller II is the closest thing to SCOTUS that I am aware of that addresses bans based on magazine capacity. And if SCOTUS sides with the Kavanaugh dissent, it will be game over for the gun grabbers.
 
2nd amendment.Shall not be infringedKind of hard to misinterpret that phrase.All thats left is petty arguments about degrees of scariness

 
And other countries have tried taking them away and have seen violent crimes go way up. Do you want our numbers to mirror that of the UK? What good is reducing gun violence by 100% if overall violent crime goes up 400-500%? Are murders suddenly okay as long as no one gets shot?
Violent crimes aren't murders. Murders are murders.The UK has a higher rate of violent crimes than we do. They also have a lower murder rate. It seems that taking guns away from violent people has the effect of leaving fewer people dead.
They have always had lower rates than we do. Part of that can be attributed to the fact that they don't report homicides as homicides unless there is a conviction in the case.
This is interesting.
Also not responded to. :coffee:
Said I'd be busy for a few days, and not going to be checking back very often 'till Thursday...
'Targeting Guns said:
• Crimes are recorded at final disposition (conviction/acquittal), leaving many crimes completely unreported
'homeoffice.gov.uk][URL="http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary said:
Page 17[/URL]

Case outcomes

Homicides are often complex and it can take time for cases to pass through the criminal justice system (CJS). Due to this"]Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.
[QUOTE='Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996]To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.
[/QUOTE]Can I trust you to do some homework while I'm gone?
 
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2nd amendment.Shall not be infringedKind of hard to misinterpret that phrase.All thats left is petty arguments about degrees of scariness
"[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms" is a little less straightforward.
[QUOTE='gunfacts.info]THE SECOND AMENDMENTJustification clause: "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State," Rights clause: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."The justification clause does not modify, restrict, or deny the rights clause.506For a full discussion of how the 2nd Amendment was created and revised, see “Origin of the 2nd Amendment” in the “Miscellaneous information” section of this book.Myth: The Supreme Court ruled the Second Amendment is not an individual rightFact: In D.C. v Heller the Supreme Court (2008) firmly established the 2nd Amendment is an individual right, as they had in Cruikshank and Dred Scott.Fact: In McDonald v Chicago (2010) the Supreme Court concluded the right is incorporated against the states via the 14th Amendment.Fact: Of 300 decisions of the federal and state courts that have taken a position on the meaning of the Second Amendment or the state analogs to it, only 10 have claimed that the right to keep and bear arms is not an individual right. Many of the other decisions struck down gun control laws because they conflicted with the Second Amendment, such as State v. Nunn (Ga. 1846).507Fact: In the Dred Scott case of 1856, the Supreme Court listed the protected rights of citizens and explicitly listed the right to keep and bear arms, and gave this right equal weight to the other freedoms enumerated in the constitution.Myth: The Second Amendment is a collective right, not an individual rightFact: St. George Tucker, any early legal commentator and authority of the original meaning of the constitution wrote in Blackstone’s Commentaries "Nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people”.508Fact: The Second Amendment was listed in a Supreme Court ruling as an individual right.509 Fact: The Supreme Court specifically reaffirmed that the right to keep and bear arms did notbelong to the government.510Fact: In 22 of the 27 instances where the Supreme Court mentions the Second Amendment, they quote the rights clause and not the justification clause.506 Eugene Volokh, Prof. Law, UCLA 507 For the Defense of Themselves and the State: The Original Intent and Judicial Interpretation of the Right to Keepand Bear Arms, Clayton Cramer, Praeger Press, 1994 508 Blackstone’s Commentaries, St. GeorgeTucker, Vol 1. Note D. Part 6. Restraints on Powers of Congress (1803). 509 Dred Scott, Casey v. Planned Parenthood, U.S. v. Cruikshank and others 510 United States v. MillerFact: Courts disagree. “We find that the history of the Second Amendment reinforces the plain meaning of its text, namely that it protects individual Americans in their right to keep and bear arms whether or not they are a member of a select militia or performing active military service or training” and “We reject the collective rights and sophisticated collective rights models for interpreting the Second Amendment.”511Fact: Citizens disagree. 62% believe the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right, while a mere 28% believe it protects the power of the states to form militias.512Fact: There are 23 state constitutions with RKBA clauses adopted between the Revolution and 1845, and 20 of them are explicitly individual in nature, only three have "for the common defense" or other “collective rights” clauses.513Fact: James Madison, considered to be the author of the Bill of Rights, wrote that the Bill of Rights was "calculated to secure the personal rights of the people". He never excluded the Second Amendment from this statement.Fact: Patrick Henry commented on the Swiss militia model (still in use today) noting that they maintain their independence without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army.514Fact: "The congress of the United States possesses no power to regulate, or interfere with the domestic concerns, or police of any state: it belongs not to them to establish any rules respecting the rights of property; nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people; or of peaceable assemblies by them, for any purposes whatsoever, and in any number, whenever they may see occasion."515Fact: Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution said: "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”511 U.S. v. Emerson, 5th court of Appeals decision, November 2, 2001, No. 99-10331 512 Associated Television News Survey, August 1999, 1,007 likely voters513 For the Defense of Themselves and the State: The Original Intent and Judicial Interpretation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Clayton Cramer, , Praeger Press, 1994, cited as an authority in USA v. Emerson (N.D. Texas 1999)514 Where Kids and Guns Do Mix, Stephen P. Halbrook, Wall Street Journal, June 2000515 Blackstone’s Commentaries, St. George Tucker, Volume 1 Appendix Note D., 1803 – Tucker's comments provide a number of insights into the consensus for interpretation of the Constitution that prevailed shortly after its ratification, after the debates had settled down and the Constitution was put into practice.Myth: The "militia" clause is to arm the National GuardFact: “Militia” is a Latin abstract noun, meaning "military service", not an "armed group", and that is the way the Latin-literate Founders used it. To the Romans, "military service" included law enforcement and disaster response. Today “militia” might be more meaningfully translated as "defense service", associated with a "defense duty", which attaches to individuals as much asto groups of them, organized or otherwise. When we are alone, we are all militias of one. In the broadest sense, militia is the exercise of civic virtue. 516Fact: the #### Act of 1903 designated the National Guard as the "organized militia" and that all other citizens were the "unorganized militia" – thus the National Guard is only part of the militia, and the whole militia is composed of the population at large. Before 1903, the National Guard had no federal definition as part of the militia at all.Fact: The first half of the Second Amendment is called the "justification clause". Justification clauses appear in many state constitutions, and cover liberties including right to trial, freedom of the press, free speech, and more. Denying gun rights based on the justification clause means we would have to deny free speech rights on the same basis.517Fact: The origin of the phrase "a well regulated militia" comes from a 1698 treatise "A Discourse of Government with Relation to Militias" by Andrew Fletcher, in which the term "well regulated" was equated with "well-behaved" or "disciplined".518Fact: “We have found no historical evidence that the Second Amendment was intended to convey militia power to the states, limit the federal government's power to maintain a standing army, or applies only to members of a select militia while on active duty. All of the evidence indicates that the Second Amendment, like other parts of the Bill of Rights, applies to and protects individual Americans.”519Fact: “The plain meaning of the right of the people to keep arms is that it is an individual, rather than a collective, right and is not limited to keeping arms while engaged in active military service or as a member of a select militia such as the National Guard ...”520Fact: Most of the 13 original states (and many colonies/territories that became states after ratification of the Constitution and before or shortly after ratification of the Bill of Rights) had their own constitutions, and it is from these that the original Bill of Rights was distilled. The state constitutions of that time had many “right to keep and bear arms” clauses that clearly guaranteed an individual right. Some examples include:Connecticut: “Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.” Kentucky: “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”Pennsylvania: “That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state ... The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”Rhode Island: “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”Vermont: “The people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State.”516 Militia, The Constitution Society, www.constiution.org 517 Eugene Volokh, Prof. Law, UCLA, http://www.law.ucla.edu/faculty/volokh/beararms/testimon.htm518 This document was widely published during the colonial and revolutionary periods, and was the basis for state and federal 'bills of rights'.519 U.S. v. Emerson, 5th court of Appeals decision, November 2, 2001, No. 99-10331 520 Ibid
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Your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment seems to imply that there can be no restrictions whatsoever on private gun ownership. Obviously this is not the case, otherwise the SC would have struck down every gun control law that we've ever had. The fact that has not happened indicates that this is not correct.

 
The UK consistently has lower murder rates than the US even in UN data which attempts to standardize reporting.
If they want to increase their murder rate, they need to get themselves a harder-fought War on Drugs.
That and gangs which often go hand in hand.http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/america-doesnt-have-a-gun-problem-it-has-a-gang-problem/Ending drug war may be ‘best gun control measure we can enact’
 
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You gun grabbers have managed to accomplish a few things with your rantings. 1. Prices are through the roof (already have what I want)2. Ammunition is difficult to find (already have thousands of rounds stocked)3. Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.

 
Stockman warns Obama: Push for gun control will be met with White House budget cuts, possible impeachment.WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36th) released the following statement Monday afternoon.The White House’s recent announcement they will use executive orders and executive actions to infringe on our constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms is an unconstitutional and unconscionable attack on the very founding principles of this republic.I will seek to thwart this action by any means necessary, including but not limited to eliminating funding for implementation, defunding the White House, and even filing articles of impeachment.The President’s actions are an existential threat to this nation. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is what has kept this nation free and secure for over 200 years. The very purpose of the Second Amendment is to stop the government from disallowing people the means to defend themselves against tyranny. Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible.Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person – much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.The President’s actions are not just an attack on the Constitution and a violation of his sworn oath of office – they are a direct attack on Americans that place all of us in danger. If the President is allowed to suspend constitutional rights on his own personal whims, our free republic has effectively ceased to exist.
:thumbup:
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
No but you should feel bad for the kids that will die because their parents don't know how to handle guns and you should feel bad for all of those same guns that will be sold after their new owner gets tired of them. Or maybe you really don't care about the kids?
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
No but you should feel bad for the kids that will die because their parents don't know how to handle guns and you should feel bad for all of those same guns that will be sold after their new owner gets tired of them. Or maybe you really don't care about the kids?
You seem really afraid that the masses have access to guns.
 
Stockman warns Obama: Push for gun control will be met with White House budget cuts, possible impeachment.WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36th) released the following statement Monday afternoon.The White House's recent announcement they will use executive orders and executive actions to infringe on our constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms is an unconstitutional and unconscionable attack on the very founding principles of this republic.I will seek to thwart this action by any means necessary, including but not limited to eliminating funding for implementation, defunding the White House, and even filing articles of impeachment.The President's actions are an existential threat to this nation. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is what has kept this nation free and secure for over 200 years. The very purpose of the Second Amendment is to stop the government from disallowing people the means to defend themselves against tyranny. Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible.Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person – much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.The President's actions are not just an attack on the Constitution and a violation of his sworn oath of office – they are a direct attack on Americans that place all of us in danger. If the President is allowed to suspend constitutional rights on his own personal whims, our free republic has effectively ceased to exist.
:thumbup:
Why do you hate the President of the United States so much? He has said he is not looking to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, but he is trying to close the loop hopes that have "helped" kill innocent children and adults? Are guns the only problem, no but they are a problem that we have and we can help close some loopholes . If you want to go back to musket days, fine, but every gun owner I speak to admits they dont need the automatic weapons that are being used kill children and adults that are just in the wrong place.
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
No but you should feel bad for the kids that will die because their parents don't know how to handle guns and you should feel bad for all of those same guns that will be sold after their new owner gets tired of them. Or maybe you really don't care about the kids?
You seem really afraid that the masses have access to guns.
I sure hope they take the time to train, practice and take an NRA safety class or two. Trained and educated masses with guns are good. Otherwise not so good. When you start seeing stupid people doing stupid things with guns, this will be why. We can call it the "Gun-Grabber Effect"
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
No but you should feel bad for the kids that will die because their parents don't know how to handle guns and you should feel bad for all of those same guns that will be sold after their new owner gets tired of them. Or maybe you really don't care about the kids?
So now you care about the kids... Kids die even with education. I had a very close friend who lost a son when his brother shot him by accident when they were looking at a gun from a family member.(Worst thing that a parent can go through IMO) And these kids were raised around guns and were educated. Accidents happen no matter what! And I do not believe the answer is taking away all guns, but if you give someone a gun your risk of being shot is higher than one who does not have a gun!!
 
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Stockman warns Obama: Push for gun control will be met with White House budget cuts, possible impeachment.WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36th) released the following statement Monday afternoon.The White House's recent announcement they will use executive orders and executive actions to infringe on our constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms is an unconstitutional and unconscionable attack on the very founding principles of this republic.I will seek to thwart this action by any means necessary, including but not limited to eliminating funding for implementation, defunding the White House, and even filing articles of impeachment.The President's actions are an existential threat to this nation. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is what has kept this nation free and secure for over 200 years. The very purpose of the Second Amendment is to stop the government from disallowing people the means to defend themselves against tyranny. Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible.Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person – much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.The President's actions are not just an attack on the Constitution and a violation of his sworn oath of office – they are a direct attack on Americans that place all of us in danger. If the President is allowed to suspend constitutional rights on his own personal whims, our free republic has effectively ceased to exist.
:thumbup:
Why do you hate the President of the United States so much? He has said he is not looking to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, but he is trying to close the loop hopes that have "helped" kill innocent children and adults? Are guns the only problem, no but they are a problem that we have and we can help close some loopholes . If you want to go back to musket days, fine, but every gun owner I speak to admits they dont need the automatic weapons that are being used kill children and adults that are just in the wrong place.
Liberal please, I hope this is your first and last post in this thread and you are way behind the curve and from what you posted know absolutely nothing about guns and "streeeeeeeeetch" the truth more than just a little. You are not helping Tim's cause here.
 
Thanks to you there are millions of new gun owners that have absolutely no idea of how a gun works or how to handle it safely. Went to a gun show in Conroe, Tx this last weekend and it was packed. I asked a lot of people what made them come to the show and a lot said they really knew nothing much about guns and were not really interested in guns BUT because of you nutbag gun grabbers they want to get something while they still can. You have let loose exactly the kind of people that you/I do not want to have guns. They are not educated in their use, have not had any training and have no clue about gun safety. :thumbdown: I fully expect many more accidental killings aver the next few months because of your wanting to do exactly the wrong thing to America safer.
You are asking me to feel bad for a potential Darwin Award nominee?
No but you should feel bad for the kids that will die because their parents don't know how to handle guns and you should feel bad for all of those same guns that will be sold after their new owner gets tired of them. Or maybe you really don't care about the kids?
So now you care about the kids... Kids die even with education. I had a very close friend who lost a son when his brother shot him by accident when they were looking at a gun from a family member.(Worst thing that a parent can go through IMO) And these kids were raised around guns and were educated. Accidents happen no matter what! And I do not believe the answer is taking away all guns, but if you give someone a gun your risk of being shot is higher than one who does not have a gun!!
The first rule of guns is to consider ALL guns LOADED at all times, until you determine it is not.The family member was irresponsible and ignorant of gun safety. Period.
 

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