Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (4 Viewers)

[Gr00vus]

Funny, sounds to me like he was awaiting word on the investigation.

I guess he cared about those damned emails after all.

I think it's more likely they just finished dealmaking on what gets added to the platform to his satisfaction and now he's honoring his end of that bargain. There have been several reports over the last week or so about the platform changes that have been agreed to. Sadly, corrections to corrupting monetary influences on government (like campaign finance and lobbying reforms) don't seem to be part of them.

 

[dparker713]

Yeah.  If anything stinks about this is was giving Hillary special treatment by not interviewing her early and under penalty of perjury as anybody else would be.  

Making false statements to the FBI is criminal regardless of whether someone is under oath.  And its pretty common practice to talk to the principle last in an investigation.  So no, Hillary was not given special treatment.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Her setting up the server to avoid FOIA requests in no way establishes willful intent to mishandle classified documents.  HTH

Combined with her desire to use "one device", it absolutely does. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Her setting up the server to avoid FOIA requests in no way establishes willful intent to mishandle classified documents.  HTH

This partly about Cobalt's post about double standards...

While I agree with him, it is truly *unique to see an FBI guy stand up and argue the defendant's side of things.

It's *not a double standard in the respect the federal government doesn't enforce the GN standard on itself, but it is a double standard in the sense that no one in the citizenry gets this kind of consideration. Where I come from when the FBI wants to get you they  nail you.

 

[dparker713]

Combined with her desire to use "one device", it absolutely does. 

You're really bad at this.  You should stop trying.

 

[bud29]

He ####ed up royally not making it a campaign issue.  What a dumb-###.

Wouldn't have scored him too many points among the D base by really going after her on this, especially since it seemed unlikely from the beginning that she would be indicted. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

He was referring to his original reaction to the Comey presser.   You're missing some context.

Actually he was missing the context, not me.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Anyone paying attention knows my feelings on HRC.  But, I take issue with folks on *my* side who are crying about a "double-standard."  That there are rules for HRC and rules for everyone else.  This comes up now that the State Department is reopening its internal investigation, and it would not be surprising to see sanctions levied against her associates.  

But, what's the double standard?  Comey established that, while reprehensible, irresponsible behavior that could be grounds for termination of employment in his office, the same evidence would not be grounds for criminal prosecution.  For anyone.  And, since Hillary is no longer employed (by anyone), there is no way to sanction her, suspend her, terminate her, etc.  

Forget Hillary's history or the Clintons' history of being above the law.  On this particular issue, I don't see grounds for a double-standard.  The means to sanction her is political.  Don't vote for her.  That raises other problems, ones I'd argue are more grave and serious.  But, that's another issue for another day.  Just not sure what other recourse others want with Hillary (assuming the facts of the case are as Comey sees them).

Good posting.  This whole thing was never about criminal wrongdoing, and I've been saying that from the beginning.  This story has always been about how Hillary is either corrupt or incompetent or both.  There's never been any need to gild the lily by worrying about the possible criminal aspect.

 

[NutterButter]

You're wrong on Rice. She did not. At all.

Powell used gov for internal State correspondence, back then the email would not go outside State. And the rules changed when he left.

About those emailing Hillary class marked documents, that's probably partly what the State investigation will look at. As Comey & others have pointed out in terms of criminality or negligence Hilllary's private server was the original sin. That's why she was in trouble, not them.

Can you point me to those rule changes.  I see there was a rule change when Clinton left her position as SOS.

 

[McGarnicle]

I still claim VRWC dammit. They didn't create this mess, but as usual they have revved it up and exaggerated its seriousness far beyond they would do with any body else. The Bush Administration destroyed millions of emails and not a peep. (Just as they also lost many lives in embassies and there weren't any investigations, much less dozens). 

Yeah the way this case has blown up is absolute proof of the vast right wing conspiracy which has always sought to destroy the Clintons. (Note- I use the phrase because it's in common parlance but it is NOT really a conspiracy by the common definition of that word- it would be more apt to call it a vast right wing movement). 

Tim, how do you explain that these scandals only seem to follow the Clintons around? Obama is despised by the right; where are the fabricated allegations and congressional investigations against him? He's attacked on policy grounds and incompetence, but not ONE personal/ethics/corruption scandal in 7.5 years in office? Seems like if you're running a right-wing conspiracy you'd aim for the top, right?

 

[Politician Spock]

You're really bad at this.  You should stop trying.

The current explanation for the existence of the server is on record as being carelessness, and with congress asking for more info today Comey stopped short of calling it incompetence. 

If she did it to avoid FOIA, it was neither careless nor incompetent. It was done for wilful deception. 

Hope that helps you grasp this concept. 

 

[NutterButter]

Tim, how do you explain that these scandals only seem to follow the Clintons around? Obama is despised by the right; where are the fabricated allegations and congressional investigations against him? He's attacked on policy grounds and incompetence, but not ONE personal/ethics/corruption scandal in 7.5 years in office? Seems like if you're running a right-wing conspiracy you'd aim for the top, right?

Give it time.  There's has to be a lot of skeletons in that closet.   No one can be that awesome.

ETA:  The GOP has spent 6 years trying to bring down Obamacare.  There's only so much they can concentrate on at once.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think it's more likely they just finished dealmaking on what gets added to the platform to his satisfaction and now he's honoring his end of that bargain. There have been several reports over the last week or so about the platform changes that have been agreed to. Sadly, corrections to corrupting monetary influences on government (like campaign finance and lobbying reforms) don't seem to be part of them.

Which brings us back to the server.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Can you point me to those rule changes.  I see there was a rule change when Clinton left her position as SOS.

It was 2005. It's been posted in this thread. If you like I will get to it when I'm on desktop (later) but if you want to find the IG report it's in there. And there have been several rule changes.

You should also refer to Hillary's own instruction to State to not use private email which IMO is pretty damning. That's also been posted.

 

[dparker713]

The current explanation for the existence of the server is on record as being carelessness, and with congress asking for more info today Comey stopped short of calling it incompetence. 

If she did it to avoid FOIA, it was neither careless nor incompetent. It was done for wilful deception. 

Hope that helps you grasp this concept. 

Wow, you just keep doubling down.  If it was willful deception for the FOIA, it's entirely irrelevant to whether she willfully mishandled classified information.  One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I still claim VRWC dammit. They didn't create this mess, but as usual they have revved it up and exaggerated its seriousness far beyond they would do with any body else. The Bush Administration destroyed millions of emails and not a peep. (Just as they also lost many lives in embassies and there weren't any investigations, much less dozens). 

Yeah the way this case has blown up is absolute proof of the vast right wing conspiracy which has always sought to destroy the Clintons. (Note- I use the phrase because it's in common parlance but it is NOT really a conspiracy by the common definition of that word- it would be more apt to call it a vast right wing movement). 

The FBI sure didn't seem to think this was some ginned up psuedo-scandal.  Hillary didn't do anything that would warrant prosecution, but other than that, they couldn't have been more critical of her behavior.  You think the FBI is part of the VRWC?

 

[NutterButter]

It was 2005. It's been posted in this thread. If you like I will get to it when I'm on desktop but if you want to find the IG report it's in there. And there have been several rule changes.

When you get a moment and if its not too much trouble.   Just trying to get the facts straight.

 

[Politician Spock]

Wow, you just keep doubling down.  If it was willful deception for the FOIA, it's entirely irrelevant to whether she willfully mishandled classified information.  One has nothing to do with the other.

Of course it does. She can't be careful and careless about email simultaneously. She can't be competent and incompetent about email simultaneously. If she is careful and competent enough to handle email to avoid FOIA, then she is careful and competent enough to handle classified email properly. Comey's careless argument becomes bunk. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Wouldn't have scored him too many points among the D base by really going after her on this, especially since it seemed unlikely from the beginning that she would be indicted. 

All out of truth telling I guess. I do love the man but he missed the point that stopping corporate influence starts with public transparency even before getting money out of politics. Guess what was in the deleted emails: corporate donors, meeting with corporate reps and Libbyists, Foundation, Teneo. I'm sorry he did not see it.

 

[Don't Noonan]

Give it time.  There's has to be a lot of skeletons in that closet.   No one can be that awesome.

ETA:  The GOP has spent 6 years trying to bring down Obamacare.  There's only so much they can concentrate on at once.

Obamacare is what puts Obama as the worst president in my lifetime.   

 

[bueno]

All out of truth telling I guess. I do love the man but he missed the point that stopping corporate influence starts with public transparency even before getting money out if politics. Guess what was in the deleted emails: donors, meeting with corporate reps and Libbyists, Foundation, Teneo. I'm sorry he did not see it.

People who cross the Clintons tend to disappear - maybe this was just self-preservation.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

People who cross the Clintons tend to disappear - maybe this was just self-preservation.

Please.

I think Bud has a point about the base, like I said countering the VRWC line is heresy. I'm sure that was what Bernie was really thinking. I guess I really don't blame him.

 

[NutterButter]

Obamacare is what puts Obama as the worst president in my lifetime.   

See McGarnicle.  Who needs corruption and ethics violations when you have Obamacare.    

 

[HellToupee]

Comey-"She was negligent & extremely careless"

 

[Don't Noonan]

See McGarnicle.  Who needs corruption and ethics violations when you have Obamacare.    

Basically the same thing ramming it down our throats

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Can you point me to those rule changes.  I see there was a rule change when Clinton left her position as SOS.

I would say more like evolved and refined than changed/

For Security here is the OIG's timeline  and in the first half of the report here is the record retention timeline.

I think Comey saying today that the 2000 emails which were "up classified" or whatever the term he used were largely irrelevant to the investigation (once their status was identified) would likely make Powell's "classified" emails unlikely to be problematic.   Powell's issue if anyone really care to pursue it would be whether "his laptop" was actually his or the governments?  And if it was his how was it plugged into the network?  BYOD is a no - no,  (Which is informative in Hillary's actions.)

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

You should also refer to Hillary's own instruction to State to not use private email which IMO is pretty damning. That's also been posted.

When government employee GMail accounts were being targeted?  Whether her logic was  ultimately right or wrong, there was something different about her setup. 

 

[cobalt_27]

Good posting.  This whole thing was never about criminal wrongdoing, and I've been saying that from the beginning.  This story has always been about how Hillary is either corrupt or incompetent or both.  There's never been any need to gild the lily by worrying about the possible criminal aspect.

Yup.  While I wanted to remain agnostic about the criminal aspect until the FBI weighed in, I largely agree with you.  

And, here's the thing I think I'm finally coming around to with the Clintons...I think it's a false narrative that they represent brilliant political tacticians.  Exactly the opposite.  It's troubling how sloppy they are.  Both of them.  Historically, they've over-reached/over-extended, milking every relationship for another angle, another point, another dollar.  They've had their successes for sure and they've been a force.  A threat to the Republicans who have gone on one fishing expedition after another.  Whitewater doesn't result in squadoosh on its own grounds, but it did result in Bill's impeachment because he was so sloppy and perjured himself years after the investigation opened.  Fast-forward to today, Hillary takes a big hit this week and, while she may ultimately win the election, there's no question her eroding credibility is even more diminished by the fact that she lied to the public--repeatedly--about her server.

I suspect it's a combination of the two of them being both corrupt and incompetent on some level (while acknowledging they have done good things and been exceptionally competent in other ways), but that corruption/incompetence cocktail has been defined by a striking dose of sloppiness.  And, I think that's what has opened them up to more scrutiny--both the legitimate and the ridiculous--and, hence, we get one gotchya' investigation after another.

 

[NutterButter]

I would say more like evolved and refined than changed/

For Security here is the OIG's timeline  and in the first half of the report here is the record retention timeline.

I think Comey saying today that the 2000 emails which were "up classified" or whatever the term he used were largely irrelevant to the investigation (once their status was identified) would likely make Powell's "classified" emails unlikely to be problematic.   Powell's issue if anyone really care to pursue it would be whether "his laptop" was actually his or the governments?  And if it was his how was it plugged into the network?  BYOD is a no - no,  (Which is informative in Hillary's actions.)

Thanks

 

[NutterButter]

See McGarnicle.  Who needs corruption and ethics violations when you have Obamacare.    

Basically the same thing ramming it down our throats

Well there you have it then.  Obama isn't so clean after all.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Another thing I'm seeing quite a bit of is she was too busy to pay attention to the (C) business.  Comey addressed this a number of times over the past several days, indicating that a person in her position should know better.  She doesn't need an email with a (C) or a subject header "DO NOT FORWARD THIS ON YOUR PRIVATE SERVER, AS IT IS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION YOU UNSOPHISTICATED GRANDMA!"  She's the Secretary of State for chrissakes.  Comey was really clear this shouldn't be given a pass for this.

I think someone is unclear on how emails work.  Hillary would not even see the emails unless they are sent to her private server.

 

[McGarnicle]

Anyone paying attention knows my feelings on HRC.  But, I take issue with folks on *my* side who are crying about a "double-standard."  That there are rules for HRC and rules for everyone else.  This comes up now that the State Department is reopening its internal investigation, and it would not be surprising to see sanctions levied against her associates.  

But, what's the double standard?  Comey established that, while reprehensible, irresponsible behavior that could be grounds for termination of employment in his office, the same evidence would not be grounds for criminal prosecution.  For anyone.  And, since Hillary is no longer employed (by anyone), there is no way to sanction her, suspend her, terminate her, etc.  

Forget Hillary's history or the Clintons' history of being above the law.  On this particular issue, I don't see grounds for a double-standard.  The means to sanction her is political.  Don't vote for her.  That raises other problems, ones I'd argue are more grave and serious.  But, that's another issue for another day.  Just not sure what other recourse others want with Hillary (assuming the facts of the case are as Comey sees them).

There were two big takeaways for me:

1. Though Hillary showed extreme negligence, there is no precedent for prosecution. I believe Comey when he says that, and I know some pundit or GOP operative or member of congress would gleefully produce precedents if they existed. It still makes no sense to me personally because the potential risk of what she did is enormous, but for whatever reason we don't prosecute in these instances. 
   
2. Anyone else would be demoted, lose their security clearance, or be fired for doing what she did. In my mind, as I ranted in here repeatedly on Tuesday after Comey spoke, she is disqualified to be president. It won't matter because she's running against basically Cartman, but she really is a disgrace and a joke of a candidate. If she was running against someone legit who was trying to win like say, Paul Ryan, and he was hammering away on this and spending millions on ads, she'd be getting destroyed in the polls and there would be talk of a contested convention. 
   

 

[Rohn Jambo]

It's 110 classified emails. But I believe only three were marked TSC. And yes it's quite possible that if Hillary were to go down for this, she wouldn't go down alone. It probably isn't just her presidential campaign at stake here.  

I had thought Secretary of States see highly classified stuff all the time.  Apparently I was wrong.

No wonder Hillary wants to run for President to see the UFO files.

 

[bueno]

There were two big takeaways for me:

1. Though Hillary showed extreme negligence, there is no precedent for prosecution. I believe Comey when he says that, and I know some pundit or GOP operative or member of congress would gleefully produce precedents if they existed. It still makes no sense to me personally because the potential risk of what she did is enormous, but for whatever reason we don't prosecute in these instances. 
   
2. Anyone else would be demoted, lose their security clearance, or be fired for doing what she did. In my mind, as I ranted in here repeatedly on Tuesday after Comey spoke, she is disqualified to be president. It won't matter because she's running against basically Cartman, but she really is a disgrace and a joke of a candidate. If she was running against someone legit who was trying to win like say, Paul Ryan, and he was hammering away on this and spending millions on ads, she'd be getting destroyed in the polls and there would be talk of a contested convention. 
   

The no precedent argument still sounds weak to me.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

11% of the people in the Pew poll couldn't decide who to vote for because both candidates are too good.

 

[NutterButter]

I had thought Secretary of States see highly classified stuff all the time.  Apparently I was wrong.

No wonder Hillary wants to run for President to see the UFO files.

There's a separate secure email for classified stuff but apparently someone sent 3 classified emails to her personal email address.

 

[Politician Spock]

The no precedent argument still sounds weak to me.

Fred Astaire sang "Someone's Gotta Be First" on the 1977 TV movie "The Easter Bunny Is Comin' To Town".

Apparently Comey didn't watch it. 

 

[Rohn Jambo]

No matter what Hillary did, it was the FBI's job to run a good investigation.

If you disagree with the recommendation then it means Hillary's legal team did an excellent job protecting their client.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

There's a separate secure email for classified stuff but apparently someone sent 3 classified emails to her personal email address.

She does not have a .gov email address.  All emails, classified or not, had to be sent to her private server.

 

[NutterButter]

This would have actually been the 2nd case in over 100 years for gross negligence so there is a precedent.

 

[Politician Spock]

I think of a man and I remove reason and accountability.

The only thing separating your choice for president from prosecution is the FBI concluded she's a #######. Good luck with that. 

 

[jon_mx]

There is no precedent for voting for a woman for president.  So I am going to have to say no.

 

[dparker713]

Of course it does. She can't be careful and careless about email simultaneously. She can't be competent and incompetent about email simultaneously. If she is careful and competent enough to handle email to avoid FOIA, then she is careful and competent enough to handle classified email properly. Comey's careless argument becomes bunk. 

Of course she can.  This is not one monolithic event.  And regardless, the act of setting up a server for non-classified correspondence is irrelevant to how she treated classified data that was only supposed to be sent over government operated secure channels.  This isn't that hard.  The two are entirely unrelated.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

When government employee GMail accounts were being targeted?  Whether her logic was  ultimately right or wrong, there was something different about her setup. 

She referred to private email, but yeah her system was again even worse.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Fred Astaire sang "Someone's Gotta Be First" on the 1977 TV movie "The Easter Bunny Is Comin' To Town".

Apparently Comey didn't watch it. 

Comey almost got on Obama's short list for Supreme Court justice nomination.  He should be very prepared and comfortable in defending his decisions.

 

[cobalt_27]

At this point, I'd put good $ on neither of these candidates finishing out a full term.  Trump is a trainwreck and Hillary is too sloppy and has republicans frothing at the mouth ready to bring her down for so much as having an irregular heartbeat.

 

[dparker713]

She does not have a .gov email address.  All emails, classified or not, had to be sent to her private server.

There is an entirely separate communication system for classified information.  No classified information ever should have been sent or received by her server.

 

[Politician Spock]

Of course she can.  This is not one monolithic event.  And regardless, the act of setting up a server for non-classified correspondence is irrelevant to how she treated classified data that was only supposed to be sent over government operated secure channels.  This isn't that hard.  The two are entirely unrelated.  

It doesn't have to be one monolithic event. Her defense against being prosecuted is she's careless and borderline incompetent. If it's established she's not, then she has no defense and being prosecuted is the result. 

 

[The Commish]

yeah, it's EXACTLY the same to have a .gov account on servers in the fed network as a server sitting behind a Time Warner Cable cable modem   For those of you banging that comparison drum on a multitude of things, you're forgetting to do that here.

ETA:  But to her credit, there was a secret service detail at the house that probably wasn't in the server room at State, so it might be a wash  

If she had sent the exact same emails over her .gov account it would have been just as much of a violation of protocol.  

Sure.  I was responding to your comment around security, not this new line of protocol.  This one is a much better line by the way.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

She does not have a .gov email address.  All emails, classified or not, had to be sent to her private server.

No classified information should ever be emailed to a .gov email address.   The "1000" people on these exchanges were all in violation of this policy.  Hillary's setup and its vulnerabilities makes this worst, but the violation is using non secure email to begin with and not recognizing and reporting it.  It would have been a major finding if classified information was somehow electronically sent to Hillary from a "secured" system as, at least by design this is supposed to be impossible.   

Notes:  The 1000 comes from the question asked of Comey how many of those 1000 were subject of a security referral, I believe he responded than none of the hundreds were besides Hillary and her inner circle.

"Secured" vs "non secured" is based on how the government defines the networks.  It doesn't mean that non-secured is absent any normal  network security.