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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (2 Viewers)

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Thank you, Sand, for being willing to discuss actual POLICY in this thread rather than scandal.

While I suspect your comment on this increasing fatalities is a bit over the top (and a false correlation), I have a feeling you're right on the rest of it. There are conflicting arguments and evidence about this, but generally I think that trying to force equal pay for women would create an unnecessary bureaucracy without solving any existing problems. 
I threw in the fatalities graph as it's a pretty cool statistic.  And I always like linking to actual data.

On the subject of wage gaps it's one of those third rail items.  Logic doesn't enter into it as it's used as a club to inflame passions.  Republicans can't win here.  Even if they had rock solid data to back it up (and they do) if they came out spreading the word that its a myth the left would blow up in hysterics and try to characterize the right as women haters.  No win situation.

 
So Hillary just tweeted this - 

Hillary Clinton  @HillaryClinton
We’re going to guarantee equal pay for women. It is long overdue. hrc.io/2cnPxMW

--

I went to her website and there is some good information there - and she lays out 4 steps in how she will guarantee it. The question I have, though, is unequal pay really true? I mean, for there to be unequal pay, you have to be comparing apples to apples.

I know anecdotal evidence is not persuasive, but I've been in finance/accounting before law school and then a lawyer afterward (obviously). I don't get how men and women could even be paid differently in those fields based on gender. I've never seen that happen.

On Hillary's site, it says:

What Causes the Wage Gap?

There are a lot of reasons for the gap, including the types of work women and men typically do. Women dominate fields like teaching and clerical work, which tend to pay less than male-dominated fields. Women are also the majority of low-wage and minimum-wage workers.

But there’s a lot more to the story. 

Even within the same jobs, women often earn less than men. Last year, Hillary met a young man who told her that when he was 17, he had landed his first job as a cashier, working side-by-side with his mom. When he brought home his first paycheck, he discovered he was making a dollar more an hour after one week than his mom was making after doing the same job for four years. 

Stories like this are all too common. In some cases, they’re about discrimination. But there are other, more subtle factors. Culture and gender norms influence what women study in school, the opportunities that are open to them, and how responsibilities at home affect their careers. And they’re more likely than men to be hindered by outdated workplace policies.

--

I don't really think that answers my question. Maybe I'm missing something - but is there really a gender wage gap? When you compare similarly qualified people doing similar jobs?
In terms of merchandise, women outspend men by a considerable margin.  Don't believe me?  Go to a mall and inventory men's versus women's products. Since men outearn women and women outspend men, it stands to reason that men supplement women. I am all for fixing the wage gap...  But hope this other gap can be addressed as well, as its largely cultural.

#buyyourown#######shoesImelda

 
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In terms of merchandise, women outspend men by a considerable margin.  Don't believe me?  Go to a mall and inventory men's versus women's products. Since men outearn women and women outspend men, it stands to reason that men out supplementing women. I am all for fixing the wage gap...  But hope this other gap can be addressed as well, as its largely cultural.
How exactly would you go about doing this?

On the subject of retail gender gaps we can actually measure and fix, let's start with the so-called "Pink Tax" before we worry about more complicated stuff.  That's simple, easy to demonstrate, and almost as easy to fix (shame companies and retailers into changing it).

 
How exactly would you go about doing this?

On the subject of retail gender gaps we can actually measure and fix, let's start with the so-called "Pink Tax" before we worry about more complicated stuff.  That's simple, easy to demonstrate, and almost as easy to fix (shame companies and retailers into changing it).
Don't want to seem flippant, as I have the utmost respect for women in the workplace.  Much of the senior leadership in my corp are women including our CEO, as is my mentor.  All for equal pay.  But women (not necessary uber successful executives) tend to benefit from cultural wage supplements...  Dinner while dating, disproportionate retail...  

Don't know how to fix it outside of calling it out.  I think there is a biological root to men wanting to take care of women, but if we want more equity we have to be honest about the expectations that come with leveling the wage playing field.  Maybe it's time my wife buys me a cute little outfit.  Not saying that that's what this is really about.  

 
BTW I never heard the term "pink tax," but personally I have not been taxed more for anything than #####.  Isn't even close.  

 
Fair enough....it's certainly an interesting position you find yourself in, I'd think.  I raised this in conversation with TF a few pages ago, but it didn't go anywhere.  You guys think that Trump is the liar and can't trust a single word he says, but at the same time, you are fearful of all the things he's saying.  I'm not sure how you guys work through that inconsistency, but it's interesting consider.  If there's anything I am fearful of in any form it's the fear of the unknown with Trump.  I can't say I believe a single thing that's come out of his mouth thus far.  Sure, all these things he says COULD happen, but what's the likelihood? 
I think I may possibly have found the disconnect we've been having on this.

I don't think anyone fears that the things he's saying will come to fruition. At least I don't. The issue is that the things he's saying are problematic if the president says them (and the electorate condones them) even if they don't happen.

For example- I don't actually think he's going to ban Muslims from entry to the US, for a number of reasons.  But even the proposal is a huge problem if he wins, because (1) a president of the United States who is willing to antagonize moderate Muslms like that feeds right into the extremist script of triggering a "holy war"- frankly some of the crap he says might as well have been written by ISIS PR, and (2) it would really bother me if Americans were willing to tolerate a president who proposed something I consider so fundamentally un-American.  It has terrible implications for the future of this whole American experiment.

Also, remember that the nonstop lying is just one of the many problems I have with Trump.  We may not know what he'll do as president because what he says is so inconsistent, but his stupidity, his carelessness, his lack of intellectual curiosity or attention to detail, his tendency to listen to and surround himself with the absolute worst human beings that American politics has to offer, his dangerous vilification of the press and by extension the public's right to information- those are not things anyone could reasonably expect to go away when he's president.
This sorta touches on a question I've been wondering about and posted in the Presidential thread.  It's an actual topic for discussion, so I thought squis might get mad if I posted it in here....getting in the way of his tweet pasting and all.  How much of Trump's following is what I'd call "blind anger" towards government?  I think this question begs some investigation.  I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. but I think we are really reaching a turning point and it's been building for a very long time.  Ask yourself this question....how different would the proposals be if Cruz were running right now?  They wouldn't be much different IMO.  The one thing they both have in common is their insistence that they AREN'T part of the establishment.  I've had this theory for a while that Trump was trying to hijack the Cruz shtick.  Tap into the "hate" of government Cruz's followers were exhibiting.  The only question that was left was who would go further to woo that hate of government?  Looks like it's Trump.  

Of course, the question remains, will our elected officials take the time to do some self reflection to understand how they helped get us where we are or will they just double down and point fingers as if they aren't part of the problem?  I'm pretty confident they will just point fingers and that's unfortunate because if we keep going this path, it's not going to be long before the democrats are in a similar predicament.  It's fine to be angry with what Trump represents, but that's a symptom of the problem.  The problem is, he's filling a need the electorate demands.  We need to be figuring out how we got to the point where Trump is the answer for anything.

 
This sorta touches on a question I've been wondering about and posted in the Presidential thread.  It's an actual topic for discussion, so I thought squis might get mad if I posted it in here....getting in the way of his tweet pasting and all.  How much of Trump's following is what I'd call "blind anger" towards government?  I think this question begs some investigation.  I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. but I think we are really reaching a turning point and it's been building for a very long time.  Ask yourself this question....how different would the proposals be if Cruz were running right now?  They wouldn't be much different IMO.  The one thing they both have in common is their insistence that they AREN'T part of the establishment.  I've had this theory for a while that Trump was trying to hijack the Cruz shtick.  Tap into the "hate" of government Cruz's followers were exhibiting.  The only question that was left was who would go further to woo that hate of government?  Looks like it's Trump.  

Of course, the question remains, will our elected officials take the time to do some self reflection to understand how they helped get us where we are or will they just double down and point fingers as if they aren't part of the problem?  I'm pretty confident they will just point fingers and that's unfortunate because if we keep going this path, it's not going to be long before the democrats are in a similar predicament.  It's fine to be angry with what Trump represents, but that's a symptom of the problem.  The problem is, he's filling a need the electorate demands.  We need to be figuring out how we got to the point where Trump is the answer for anything.
Politicians gonna politician.  Can't shame the shameless.  Have to shut them down.  No better statement could be made at this pivotal time than Hillary "it's my turn" Clinton losing.

 
This sorta touches on a question I've been wondering about and posted in the Presidential thread.  It's an actual topic for discussion, so I thought squis might get mad if I posted it in here....getting in the way of his tweet pasting and all.  How much of Trump's following is what I'd call "blind anger" towards government?  I think this question begs some investigation.  I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. but I think we are really reaching a turning point and it's been building for a very long time.  Ask yourself this question....how different would the proposals be if Cruz were running right now?  They wouldn't be much different IMO.  The one thing they both have in common is their insistence that they AREN'T part of the establishment.  I've had this theory for a while that Trump was trying to hijack the Cruz shtick.  Tap into the "hate" of government Cruz's followers were exhibiting.  The only question that was left was who would go further to woo that hate of government?  Looks like it's Trump.  

Of course, the question remains, will our elected officials take the time to do some self reflection to understand how they helped get us where we are or will they just double down and point fingers as if they aren't part of the problem?  I'm pretty confident they will just point fingers and that's unfortunate because if we keep going this path, it's not going to be long before the democrats are in a similar predicament.  It's fine to be angry with what Trump represents, but that's a symptom of the problem.  The problem is, he's filling a need the electorate demands.  We need to be figuring out how we got to the point where Trump is the answer for anything.
You and I have talked about this before- you know how I feel.  Everyone hates "the government" but generally they like their own elected officials, just like everyone hates lawyers but generally they like their own lawyer. The anger at/scapegoating of the government has just gotten worse thanks to the internet and 24 hour cable news, although there's some real and valid complaints that are relatively new. 

But I think the Trump cult is a unique thing that's not part of that narrative, because there's just so much evidence that supports that conclusion.  Here's a Bloomberg article from last week, for example, pointing out that it's actually been a banner year for the GOP establishment other than in the presidential race. If this were about anger at the GOP establishment rather than a particular affinity for bigoted, ignorant, orange-tinted reality TV stars among a subset of conservatives and moderates there's no way that would be the case.

 
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Hmmmmmmmm.

http://tinyurl.com/jlh8c7n

Concerns about Hillary Clinton's health are "serious—could be disqualifying for the position of President of the U.S.," say nearly 71% of 250 physicians responding to an informal internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). About 20% said concerns were "likely overblown, but should be addressed as by full release of medical records." Only 2.7% responded that they were "just a political attack; I have confidence in the letter from her physician and see no cause for concern."

 
Hmmmmmmmm.

http://tinyurl.com/jlh8c7n

Concerns about Hillary Clinton's health are "serious—could be disqualifying for the position of President of the U.S.," say nearly 71% of 250 physicians responding to an informal internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). About 20% said concerns were "likely overblown, but should be addressed as by full release of medical records." Only 2.7% responded that they were "just a political attack; I have confidence in the letter from her physician and see no cause for concern."
I I liked this, but I'm dubious.  How did they get the sheets off of all those people's heads at the Trump rally to know 250 of them were doctors?  Did they check for stethoscopes?

 
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Hmmmmmmmm.

http://tinyurl.com/jlh8c7n

Concerns about Hillary Clinton's health are "serious—could be disqualifying for the position of President of the U.S.," say nearly 71% of 250 physicians responding to an informal internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). About 20% said concerns were "likely overblown, but should be addressed as by full release of medical records." Only 2.7% responded that they were "just a political attack; I have confidence in the letter from her physician and see no cause for concern."
So only 250 physicians in a voluntary "informal internet survey" out of how many physicians who belong to the AAPS?

Hmmmmmmm is right.

 
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You and I have talked about this before- you know how I feel.  Everyone hates "the government" but generally they like their own elected officials, just like everyone hates lawyers but generally they like their own lawyer. The anger at/scapegoating of the government has just gotten worse thanks to the internet and 24 hour cable news, although there's some real and valid complaints that are relatively new. 

But I think the Trump cult is a unique thing that's not part of that narrative, because there's just so much evidence that supports that conclusion.  Here's a Bloomberg article from last week, for example, pointing out that it's actually been a banner year for the GOP establishment other than in the presidential race. If this were about anger at the GOP establishment rather than a particular affinity for bigoted, ignorant, orange-tinted reality TV stars among a subset of conservatives and moderates there's no way that would be the case.
I think frustration with certain Euro-American policies goes well beyond Trump and Americans angry at their government.  What Trump offers is a way to protest the course that neo-liberal policies have put us on. People who say that Hilliary will just give us more of the same are right - but a significant percentage of the populace don't want more of the same anymore. In fact, if Trump were a sane candidate or even one who knew how to run a campaign, he'd be running away with this election promoting the same policies with different specifics.

 
This sorta touches on a question I've been wondering about and posted in the Presidential thread.  It's an actual topic for discussion, so I thought squis might get mad if I posted it in here....getting in the way of his tweet pasting and all.  How much of Trump's following is what I'd call "blind anger" towards government?  I think this question begs some investigation.  I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. but I think we are really reaching a turning point and it's been building for a very long time.  Ask yourself this question....how different would the proposals be if Cruz were running right now?  They wouldn't be much different IMO.  The one thing they both have in common is their insistence that they AREN'T part of the establishment.  I've had this theory for a while that Trump was trying to hijack the Cruz shtick.  Tap into the "hate" of government Cruz's followers were exhibiting.  The only question that was left was who would go further to woo that hate of government?  Looks like it's Trump.  

Of course, the question remains, will our elected officials take the time to do some self reflection to understand how they helped get us where we are or will they just double down and point fingers as if they aren't part of the problem?  I'm pretty confident they will just point fingers and that's unfortunate because if we keep going this path, it's not going to be long before the democrats are in a similar predicament.  It's fine to be angry with what Trump represents, but that's a symptom of the problem.  The problem is, he's filling a need the electorate demands.  We need to be figuring out how we got to the point where Trump is the answer for anything.
You and I have talked about this before- you know how I feel.  Everyone hates "the government" but generally they like their own elected officials, just like everyone hates lawyers but generally they like their own lawyer. The anger at/scapegoating of the government has just gotten worse thanks to the internet and 24 hour cable news, although there's some real and valid complaints that are relatively new. 

But I think the Trump cult is a unique thing that's not part of that narrative, because there's just so much evidence that supports that conclusion.  Here's a Bloomberg article from last week, for example, pointing out that it's actually been a banner year for the GOP establishment other than in the presidential race. If this were about anger at the GOP establishment rather than a particular affinity for bigoted, ignorant, orange-tinted reality TV stars among a subset of conservatives and moderates there's no way that would be the case.
Why not?  In your estimation, how many people in this country understand that "ground up" is the way to affect long, lasting change?  I'll say maybe 1 in 10,000.  To the other 9,999 the way to affect change is top/down IF they put that much thought into it.  See, a discussion between you and me is vastly different than a discussion between me and our "average American".  We watch, we observe, we educate ourselves.  We are the minority and it's not close.  We don't settle for sound bytes or one liner twitter comments.  We are the minority and it's not close.  

As to the increased disdain toward government, I guess we don't really know what drives it for each individual.  I know, for me, increased amounts of information and personal education is what's driven my increase.  I think I'm in the minority.  I do agree that 24 hour news is a big part of the problem.  People settle for other people's opinions as "news".  I think it's going a bit too far to blame the internet though ;)   How it's used is more important in this discussion than increased usage in general.  We have more information at our disposal today than ever before and we still came up with Hillary vs Donald.

 
From a Daily Kos diary.  :pickle:

Politico Survey of GOP Operatives for State of Race. Short Version - Trump is Done.

www.politico.com/…

Politico has a new article about Trump’s electoral prospects entitled “Trump’s Shrinking Swing State Map”.

They conducted interviews with more than 2 dozen GOP operatives, state party officials and elected leaders.  The questions focused on the state of the race in 11 battleground states. Here are some key observations:

*Colorado, New Hampshire and Virginia are “close to un-winnable” for Trump.

*Trump has lost ground (needs to ‘recapture steam’) in PA.  He now trails by 10 points per Politico’s own battleground state polling average. (Politico never releases this poll, but they put it into their articles from time to time).

*Trump has lost ground in Wisconsin and the state “could find itself off the map” soon. Per the article he appears to be below the GOP baseline in Southeast Wisconsin.

*Michigan has been placed in the bottom tier of pickup opportunities next to NH. Even crappy polls like Emerson give Clinton a clear lead in the state.

*Florida, Iowa, Nevada, North Carolina and Ohio remain tight according to the polling averages. However, I would note that Clinton has held a clear lead in the majority of polls conducted in FL, NC and OH. NV appears to be drifting quietly into the blue column as even these internet surveys can’t unskew a lead for Trump. IA is tight, but the PPP poll showing Clinton +2 and the fact that Hillary’s team in IA has already made about 1 million contacts tell me that she is going to be a tough out there. It also underscores to me some of Trump’s weakness. IA has the largest percentage of non-college educated whites among battleground states (45%). If he can’t win there, he can’t win anywhere. It tells me that his appeal does not reach much beyond the GOP base and if Bernie voters get behind Clinton she should be able to win it by a solid margin.

Tony Fabrizio, who is a veteran GOP pollster, is the guy doing polls for Trump. They will be making decisions on cutting the cord on certain states and focusing on others over the next 2 weeks.

They will likely cut the cord in NH and try to go all-in on VA.  Some (but clearly not all) VA GOP operatives think that despite the bad polling, Trump could make a comeback there as Ken Cuccinelli did in his narrow loss against McCaulife. My response to that is : general election vs. off year election, Tim Kaine, and the fact that Donald Trump is loathed by normal people, a lot of whom live in NOVA.

There is also the factor of Clinton’s very real expansion into GA, AZ and NE-2 (by way of Iowa spend). That is complicating their decision making.

Basically, if you follow the thread of this article, she is already at 273 EVs and is likely to clear 300 fairly easily.  The observations here seem to align to the Politico article last week with David Plouffe.

60 days or so to go, but we’re in good shape.

 
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there was a time when a Hillary supporter was outraged over 18 minutes of deleted tape but now they could give a rat's a** about the never-ending nonsense this woman partakes in...the difference is the deleted 18 minutes involved an R and the tens of thousands of deleted emails involve a D...
42 years is a long time to hold a grudge, GB.

 
Politico has a new article about Trump’s electoral prospects entitled Trump’s Shrinking Swing State Map”.
Does anyone realize that Trump isn't paying people?

Doesn't have campaign offices.

Isn't running commercials.

Doesn't have real policy advisors.

He hasn't issued his August campaign finance report.

--->>> Hillary doesn't have an opposing campaign.

 
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Why not?  In your estimation, how many people in this country understand that "ground up" is the way to affect long, lasting change?  I'll say maybe 1 in 10,000.  To the other 9,999 the way to affect change is top/down IF they put that much thought into it.  See, a discussion between you and me is vastly different than a discussion between me and our "average American".  We watch, we observe, we educate ourselves.  We are the minority and it's not close.  We don't settle for sound bytes or one liner twitter comments.  We are the minority and it's not close.  

As to the increased disdain toward government, I guess we don't really know what drives it for each individual.  I know, for me, increased amounts of information and personal education is what's driven my increase.  I think I'm in the minority.  I do agree that 24 hour news is a big part of the problem.  People settle for other people's opinions as "news".  I think it's going a bit too far to blame the internet though ;)   How it's used is more important in this discussion than increased usage in general.  We have more information at our disposal today than ever before and we still came up with Hillary vs Donald.
Well to understand change driven from the ground up, you have to understand the ground better - I think disdain toward government is easy to understand f you're on the ground.The problem is, the ground doesn't nominate candidates.

 
QUESTION: Thank you. Secretary Clinton, to your point, you have had an extensive record with military intervention. How do you respond to progressives like myself who worry and have concerns that your hawkish foreign policy will continue? And what is your plan to end wasteful war campaigns in which our peers, servicewomen and men, continue to be killed and wounded?
Awful phrasing by Lauer.

CLINTON: Well, I assume you’re talking about Iraq, because of my vote, and you probably are talking about Libya, because of the role that I played in the administration’s decision about whether to take on Gadhafi.

...

With respect to Libya, again, there’s no difference between my opponent and myself. He’s on record extensively supporting intervention in Libya, when Gadhafi was threatening to massacre his population. I put together a coalition that included NATO, included the Arab League, and we were able to save lives. We did not lose a single American in that action.

And I think taking that action was the right decision. Not taking it, and permitting there to be an ongoing civil war in Libya, would have been as dangerous and threatening as what we are now seeing in Syria.
http://time.com/4483355/commander-chief-forum-clinton-trump-intrepid/

- Really terrible here by Clinton - There is a civil war in Libya, and if it isn't as bad as Syria it's close, it's horrific, and Isis is there too.

 
Does anyone realize that Trump isn't paying people?

Doesn't have campaign offices.

Isn't running commercials.

Doesn't have real policy advisors.

He hasn't issued his August campaign finance report.

--->>> Hillary doesn't have an opposing campaign.
In the Trump thread, they don't care. They seem to think that the formula that allowed him to win the GOP nomination by dominating every news cycle with outrageous statements that gave him $2 billion dollars worth of free publicity, plus running no ads and having no ground game will work again. Maybe it will, but I doubt it.

 
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In the Trump thread, they don't care. They seem to think that the formula that allowed him to win the GOP nomination by dominating every news cycle with outrageous statements that have him $2 billion dollars worth of free publicity along with no ads or ground game will work again. Maybe it will, but I doubt it.
Reminds me of a football team that thinks it's winning because they have a commanding lead of TOP since the other team is always kicking off to them.

 
Ok, I have got to ask.

Hillary;s earpiece.

Here.
 

...Sources at the New York Police Department told True Pundit Hillary wore an “inductive earpiece” to receive feedback from her handlers during the forum, where she was grilled on why she compromised national security with her use of an secret unsecured email server.

NYPD insiders say Hillary’s earpiece is similar to the type widely used by Broadway actors to get fed lines when they forget their script during a live performance.

Tiny, flesh-colored earpieces like the one Hillary allegedly wore are only available to law enforcement personnel, according to TruePundit:

“Most of the units this size, approximately 3mm or comparable to a small pearl stud earring, are normally issued to law enforcement or corporate security teams. At a size that small, the earbud is designed to sit inside the opening of the ear canal, almost invisible to anyone.”

Sharp-eyed Twitter users noticed the earpiece and made #HillarysEarpiece a trending Twitter topic. ...

Before anyone gives me hell about the source (agreed in advance) please take a look at this:

Seriously, what is this about?

 
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Jim11 said:
She has answers fed to her by her handlers. She'll probably have it for the debates as well. 

If Trump did it, it'd be all over the MSM. Since it's her, they try to hush it up.
All the :cry:  when they claimed GW Bush wore a listening device Vs Kerry

 
Hmmmmmmmm.

http://tinyurl.com/jlh8c7n

Concerns about Hillary Clinton's health are "serious—could be disqualifying for the position of President of the U.S.," say nearly 71% of 250 physicians responding to an informal internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). About 20% said concerns were "likely overblown, but should be addressed as by full release of medical records." Only 2.7% responded that they were "just a political attack; I have confidence in the letter from her physician and see no cause for concern."
This survey seemed off since I didn't think doctors were allowed to offer such speculation on a person (never mind that it was an 'informal internet' survey) so I took a look at who AAPS are.

Turns out they are a politically conservative group dedicated to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine."

Consider me shocked that a survey of their members might question Hillary's ability to be president.

 
Why not?  In your estimation, how many people in this country understand that "ground up" is the way to affect long, lasting change?  I'll say maybe 1 in 10,000.  To the other 9,999 the way to affect change is top/down IF they put that much thought into it.  See, a discussion between you and me is vastly different than a discussion between me and our "average American".  We watch, we observe, we educate ourselves.  We are the minority and it's not close.  We don't settle for sound bytes or one liner twitter comments.  We are the minority and it's not close.  

As to the increased disdain toward government, I guess we don't really know what drives it for each individual.  I know, for me, increased amounts of information and personal education is what's driven my increase.  I think I'm in the minority.  I do agree that 24 hour news is a big part of the problem.  People settle for other people's opinions as "news".  I think it's going a bit too far to blame the internet though ;)   How it's used is more important in this discussion than increased usage in general.  We have more information at our disposal today than ever before and we still came up with Hillary vs Donald.
Because if people are frustrated with "the establishment" they don't vote for it.  You're making this more complicated than it is.  You can't have it both ways- either people's voting tendencies are a reflection of their frustration with the establishment, or they're not.

 
Because if people are frustrated with "the establishment" they don't vote for it.  You're making this more complicated than it is.  You can't have it both ways- either people's voting tendencies are a reflection of their frustration with the establishment, or they're not.
Of course they do.  That's exactly where "lesser of two evils" comes from....it happens every election.  And in every election, those who try to tell others that voting that way isn't wise they are shouted down with "well, you're wasting your vote" or "if you vote third party, you're really helping the person I don't like win" shtick.  We had pages here dedicated to both those themes.  There's a very real social aspect to this that you seem to be discounting.

 
Of course they do.  That's exactly where "lesser of two evils" comes from....it happens every election.  And in every election, those who try to tell others that voting that way isn't wise they are shouted down with "well, you're wasting your vote" or "if you vote third party, you're really helping the person I don't like win" shtick.  We had pages here dedicated to both those themes.  There's a very real social aspect to this that you seem to be discounting.
We're talking about GOP primary voting patterns and the fact that establishment candidates had a particularly good year vs "outsider" candidates in every race but the presidential one.  That's what the Bloomberg article I linked discusses.  Nothing you say here is relevant in that context.

 
As I noted in the Trump thread, Hillay has lost ground in most of the battleground states. As of this morning her lead in Pennsylvania has been cut in half. This is now a horse race. 

 
We really are treated with disdain, as if we're all stupid and off base for asking questions.  
Did we read the same article? Snopes simply says you can't' see the purported earpiece in any other shots from the event. How is this treating people with disdain?

 
Of course they do.  That's exactly where "lesser of two evils" comes from....it happens every election.  And in every election, those who try to tell others that voting that way isn't wise they are shouted down with "well, you're wasting your vote" or "if you vote third party, you're really helping the person I don't like win" shtick.  We had pages here dedicated to both those themes.  There's a very real social aspect to this that you seem to be discounting.
We're talking about GOP primary voting patterns and the fact that establishment candidates had a particularly good year vs "outsider" candidates in every race but the presidential one.  That's what the Bloomberg article I linked discusses.  Nothing you say here is relevant in that context.
Sorry, lost track of where we were from yesterday.  It goes back to my questions in a post up a couple.  How many people put two and two together to realize that top down isn't the way to affect change?  That's what I see here.  I see a group of people who literally think, "well, he's just my county commissioner...this doesn't mean a whole lot, he can't change much".  "Let's really shake this ##### up and vote for the idiot at the top"  Throw that sort of attitude on top of the rigged voting districts and it's easy to see why status quo remains such down ticket.

If we're being honest, all we (you and I) are trying to do is to figure a rational explanation for irrational people.  I'm not sure we're going to be satisfied completely in our search.

 
Sorry, lost track of where we were from yesterday.  It goes back to my questions in a post up a couple.  How many people put two and two together to realize that top down isn't the way to affect change?  That's what I see here.  I see a group of people who literally think, "well, he's just my county commissioner...this doesn't mean a whole lot, he can't change much".  "Let's really shake this ##### up and vote for the idiot at the top"  Throw that sort of attitude on top of the rigged voting districts and it's easy to see why status quo remains such down ticket.

If we're being honest, all we (you and I) are trying to do is to figure a rational explanation for irrational people.  I'm not sure we're going to be satisfied completely in our search.
This is a great point, which I have thought about before this election. The fact is that millions of voters seem to perceive the President (not this one in particular, but all of them) as a dictator, and another fact is that every candidate for President campaigns as if they will be a dictator (Trump has taken this to a  greater degree than we have ever before witnessed.) 

 
Sorry, lost track of where we were from yesterday.  It goes back to my questions in a post up a couple.  How many people put two and two together to realize that top down isn't the way to affect change?  That's what I see here.  I see a group of people who literally think, "well, he's just my county commissioner...this doesn't mean a whole lot, he can't change much".  "Let's really shake this ##### up and vote for the idiot at the top"  Throw that sort of attitude on top of the rigged voting districts and it's easy to see why status quo remains such down ticket.

If we're being honest, all we (you and I) are trying to do is to figure a rational explanation for irrational people.  I'm not sure we're going to be satisfied completely in our search.
This is a great point, which I have thought about before this election. The fact is that millions of voters seem to perceive the President (not this one in particular, but all of them) as a dictator, and another fact is that every candidate for President campaigns as if they will be a dictator (Trump has taken this to a  greater degree than we have ever before witnessed.) 
I'm not sure I'd go this far Tim ;)

But I do believe many (almost most) voters think that the fastest way to impact change is by voting top down.  And it might be the fastest way to impact a little bit of change for a short time, but it's never the way to go if you want long lasting change.  Our politicians know this.  That's why they created the rules down ticket the way they did and why they decided to mess with the districts the way they did.

 
Sorry, lost track of where we were from yesterday.  It goes back to my questions in a post up a couple.  How many people put two and two together to realize that top down isn't the way to affect change?  That's what I see here.  I see a group of people who literally think, "well, he's just my county commissioner...this doesn't mean a whole lot, he can't change much".  "Let's really shake this ##### up and vote for the idiot at the top"  Throw that sort of attitude on top of the rigged voting districts and it's easy to see why status quo remains such down ticket.

If we're being honest, all we (you and I) are trying to do is to figure a rational explanation for irrational people.  I'm not sure we're going to be satisfied completely in our search.
Guessing you still haven't read the article.  It was about the success of GOP "establishment" candidates with national profiles.  Ryan, McCain, Rubio, etc.  Each faced a Trump-friendly "outsider" in their primary and not only did they all win, they all won in massive blowouts, like 50 point margins.  This just two years after Eric Cantor was primaried by an outsider who ran against Cantor as an "establishment" guy.

You are right that it's difficult to pin down an explanation for something as irrational as wanting Donald Trump to be the president of the United States. Libraries will be filled with books that will try.  We all have our own theories.  All I'm saying is that you can't make the "frustration with the establishment" argument if there's pretty clear evidence contradicting it.

 
As I noted in the Trump thread, Hillay has lost ground in most of the battleground states. As of this morning her lead in Pennsylvania has been cut in half. This is now a horse race. 
At least some campaign strategy discussion can return, there hasn't been much to discuss on that topic recently.

If Hillary focuses resources on VA, PA, OH & NH, those states should provide enough to get her over the top. She can forego FL. Places that were a pipedream like AZ & TX should remain just that. She should probably forego any run at SC & GA also, those were unlikely to begin with.

That would leave NC open for a full on blitz. They need HRC & Kaine, Joe, Barack, Bill and Michelle out in full force in these five states: VA, PA, OH, NH & NC. She has leads in all of these and needs to widen there to lock it up. She should spend big on ads in SC, GA, & FL to force Trump to spend big on defense there, but they don't need to spend much time in those states. In the next 50+ days, time for the big players is tight.

 
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Meanwhile, I think the tide is starting to turn in the media.  They've seen the well-deserved grief that their colleagues have gotten in recent weeks, from criticism of that AP hit piece suggesting impropriety in Clinton's meetings with Foundation donors without providing context (AP deleted a tweet about the story yesterday) to the attacks from all sides on the NY Times for giving tons of coverage to the Clinton Foundation non-scandal while ignoring the actual brewing scandal about the illegal Trump foundation "donation" (bribe) to Bondi, to the Matt Lauer fiasco.  And they've seen the poll trends that have resulted from their misguided attempts to appear "balanced" in an election where facts and logic are not balanced.  I think we're gonna start getting more stuff like this, from the Washington Post editorial board this morning:


 


The Hillary Clinton email story is out of control


JUDGING BY the amount of time NBC’s Matt Lauer spent pressing Hillary Clinton on her emails during Wednesday’s national security presidential forum, one would think that her homebrew server was one of the most important issues facing the country this election. It is not. There are a thousand other substantive issues — from China’s aggressive moves in the South China Sea to National Security Agency intelligence-gathering to military spending — that would have revealed more about what the candidates know and how they would govern. Instead, these did not even get mentioned in the first of 5½ precious prime-time hours the two candidates will share before Election Day, while emails took up a third of Ms. Clinton’s time.

Sadly, Mr. Lauer’s widely panned handling of the candidate forum was not an aberration. Judging by polls showing that voters trust Mr. Trump more than Ms. Clinton, as well as other evidence, it reflects a common shorthand for this election articulated by NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick last week: “You have Donald Trump, who’s openly racist,” he said. Then, of Ms. Clinton: “I mean, we have a presidential candidate who’s deleted emails and done things illegally and is a presidential candidate. That doesn’t make sense to me, because if that was any other person, you’d be in prison.”

In fact, Ms. Clinton’s emails have endured much more scrutiny than an ordinary person’s would have, and the criminal case against her was so thin that charging her would have been to treat her very differently. Ironically, even as the email issue consumed so much precious airtime, several pieces of news reported Wednesday should have taken some steam out of the story. First is a memo FBI Director James B. Comey sent to his staff explaining that the decision not to recommend charging Ms. Clinton was “not a cliff-hanger” and that people “chest-beating” and second-guessing the FBI do not know what they are talking about. Anyone who claims that Ms. Clinton should be in prison accuses, without evidence, the FBI of corruption or flagrant incompetence.

Second is the emergence of an email exchange between Ms. Clinton and former secretary of state Colin Powell in which he explained that he used a private computer and bypassed State Department servers while he ran the agency, even when communicating with foreign leaders and top officials. Mr. Powell attempted last month to distance himself from Ms. Clinton’s practices, which is one of the many factors that made the email story look worse. Now, it seems, Mr. Powell engaged in similar behavior.

Last is a finding that 30 Benghazi-related emails that were recovered during the FBI email investigation and recently attracted big headlines had nothing significant in them. Only one, in fact, was previously undisclosed, and it contained nothing but a compliment from a diplomat. But the damage of the “30 deleted Benghazi emails” story has already been done.

Ms. Clinton is hardly blameless. She treated the public’s interest in sound record-keeping cavalierly. A small amount of classified material also moved across her private server. But it was not obviously marked as such, and there is still no evidence that national security was harmed. Ms. Clinton has also admitted that using the personal server was a mistake. The story has vastly exceeded the boundaries of the facts.

Imagine how history would judge today’s Americans if, looking back at this election, the record showed that voters empowered a dangerous man because of . . . a minor email scandal. There is no equivalence between Ms. Clinton’s wrongs and Mr. Trump’s manifest unfitness for office.
:thumbup:

 
Sorry, lost track of where we were from yesterday.  It goes back to my questions in a post up a couple.  How many people put two and two together to realize that top down isn't the way to affect change?  That's what I see here.  I see a group of people who literally think, "well, he's just my county commissioner...this doesn't mean a whole lot, he can't change much".  "Let's really shake this ##### up and vote for the idiot at the top"  Throw that sort of attitude on top of the rigged voting districts and it's easy to see why status quo remains such down ticket.

If we're being honest, all we (you and I) are trying to do is to figure a rational explanation for irrational people.  I'm not sure we're going to be satisfied completely in our search.
Guessing you still haven't read the article.  It was about the success of GOP "establishment" candidates with national profiles.  Ryan, McCain, Rubio, etc.  Each faced a Trump-friendly "outsider" in their primary and not only did they all win, they all won in massive blowouts, like 50 point margins.  This just two years after Eric Cantor was primaried by an outsider who ran against Cantor as an "establishment" guy.

You are right that it's difficult to pin down an explanation for something as irrational as wanting Donald Trump to be the president of the United States. Libraries will be filled with books that will try.  We all have our own theories.  All I'm saying is that you can't make the "frustration with the establishment" argument if there's pretty clear evidence contradicting it.
So, a question has come to mind that I hadn't thought of until you posted this.  I'm not sure the evidence is "clear" here.  Simply because it's based, in part, on the assumption that the people voting in the Presidential primaries and the people voting in the state/local primaries are similar enough to make the comparison.  Are we sure that's true?  I don't know how we'd even answer that question.  There was a pretty significant increase in voter turnout for the GOP primaries.  At the time, this increase was attributed to the quantity of people on the stage.  Maybe that was wrong?  Maybe that increase was because of a group of people who thought chopping off the head of the snake was the best way to affect change so they showed up for the Presidential primary and didn't bother doing anything else when their primary rolled around leaving two completely different groups (demographics wise).  That would make voting behavior comparison a pointless endeavor.  

Obviously, we can get down a rabbit hole pretty quickly, but I am wondering if there's a way we can know the voting make up.  I know the quantity of people wasn't remotely similar in my state between presidential primaries and state/local primaries.  I'm wondering if that's true with other states.  We did have a changing of the guard so to speak.  Have a couple people closer to Bernie's ilk on the Dem side of things now as an option and in my district a more moderate option on the GOP side of things.

ETA:  Or it might be as simple as "Damn, that ******* really did get the nomination.  Well, I need to vote for X in my state primary to make sure this thing doesn't go completely off the rails"...who knows :shrug:   :lol:  

 
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That Washington Post editorial was great. 

But- the public doesn't read editorials. They hear headlines and form their own impressions, and all too many of them buy into garbage the way Mr. Ham does in this thread. It's depressing. 

 
Meanwhile, I think the tide is starting to turn in the media.  They've seen the well-deserved grief that their colleagues have gotten in recent weeks, from criticism of that AP hit piece suggesting impropriety in Clinton's meetings with Foundation donors without providing context (AP deleted a tweet about the story yesterday) to the attacks from all sides on the NY Times for giving tons of coverage to the Clinton Foundation non-scandal while ignoring the actual brewing scandal about the illegal Trump foundation "donation" (bribe) to Bondi, to the Matt Lauer fiasco.  And they've seen the poll trends that have resulted from their misguided attempts to appear "balanced" in an election where facts and logic are not balanced.  I think we're gonna start getting more stuff like this, from the Washington Post editorial board this morning:


 


:thumbup:
She still hasn't taken ownership.  She prolongs it accordingly.  

 
Meanwhile, I think the tide is starting to turn in the media.  They've seen the well-deserved grief that their colleagues have gotten in recent weeks, from criticism of that AP hit piece suggesting impropriety in Clinton's meetings with Foundation donors without providing context (AP deleted a tweet about the story yesterday) to the attacks from all sides on the NY Times for giving tons of coverage to the Clinton Foundation non-scandal while ignoring the actual brewing scandal about the illegal Trump foundation "donation" (bribe) to Bondi, to the Matt Lauer fiasco.  And they've seen the poll trends that have resulted from their misguided attempts to appear "balanced" in an election where facts and logic are not balanced.  I think we're gonna start getting more stuff like this, from the Washington Post editorial board this morning:


The Hillary Clinton email story is out of control :thumbup:
How the mighty have fallen.  All this says is that a once proud institution that truly stepped out and brought in the biggest stories of government corruption (Deep Throat, etc.) has fallen into political line.  Just another soldier in the 4th estate army for the DNC now.

RIP Washington Post.

 
That Washington Post editorial was great. 

But- the public doesn't read editorials. They hear headlines and form their own impressions, and all too many of them buy into garbage the way Mr. Ham does in this thread. It's depressing. 
Well some people read editorials. Or they see them posted or retweeted in their timelines.  And remember that the Post has a huge Virginia readership and some south-central Pennsylvania readership too.

But more importantly, their colleagues in "the media" will read it.  And it also maybe suggests that many of them are hearing the criticism they've got over the coverage the last two weeks or so.

 
Well some people read editorials. Or they see them posted or retweeted in their timelines.  And remember that the Post has a huge Virginia readership and some south-central Pennsylvania readership too.

But more importantly, their colleagues in "the media" will read it.  And it also maybe suggests that many of them are hearing the criticism they've got over the coverage the last two weeks or so.
Do not ask Hillary hard questions! We must control the message at all costs.  Next thing the People will want a press conference!  Tow the line!

 
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