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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (5 Viewers)

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The Commish said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
The Commish said:
A "former Democratic pollster" who I have never heard say, in his entire tenure with Fox, one thing favorable towards Democrats in his analysis of any poll. Never once. With Caddell all the numbers he crunches are all amazingly bad news for the Democrats.
So, when the opinion is unfavorable, discount the source? Got it.

Her nomination is not inevitable.
He's "not a real democrat"....duh! What's better is the outright support Hillary is apparently getting from big business....see the Morgan Stanley guy. Kinda makes her "campaign finance reform" pillar a bit of a joke, no?
As usual - No!

For someone in the financial sector what would be more important-

  1. A "gravy train" economy such as the one of the late '90s
  2. Or the diminished ability to be in a spending war where only a select few can compete for future access to candidates
For Hillary what would be more important-

  1. Competing for super PAC funds
  2. Shutting the door on potential, all lesser known candidates from narrowing the recognition gap by out spending her in a campaign
You used a lot of words to simply say "it's in the rules, so there's no problem" which is fine. I never understood why a candidate would try and make campaign finance reform part of a campaign. It's a no win situation unless they walk the walk during the campaign and we all know how that would turn out.

To your specific questions, big business is ALWAYS going to have access to candidates. That will NEVER change. Hillary doesn't need to compete for super PAC funds if she has enough "buddies" giving already.
I didn't say anything where "it's in the rules, so there's no problem" would apply. Your second paragraph is my point. The "Morgan Stanley guy" is "ALWAYS going to have access" and Hillary "doesn't need to compete for super PAC funds" so in both cases the "undo Citizen's United" types of campaign reform wouldn't be a big fear and they would probably even benefit from it. Even it this wasn't true for the "Morgan Stanley guy" campaign finance reform can still be a "necessary evil" he is willing to lose in order to gain elsewhere.

So the support of Wall Street doesn't tell us anything about whether Hillary would use the "bully pulpit" to pursue campaign finance reform if elected.
We must be talking two different angles here. The "joke" I was referring to was Hillary Clinton going all :hophead: on campaign financing as millions flow into her coffers from Big Business sources. She would have zero ground to stand on telling the rest of the country anything about campaign finance and how it needs to change. This isn't unique to Hillary though. It holds true for just about every politician in Washington. I don't understand why any politician would try and use this as a cornerstone of a campaign honestly. It's a no win situation for them.

 
http://www.nytimes.c...v=top-news&_r=0

I thought the above was interesting.
Meh.

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/the_new_york_times_asinine_new_hillary_meme_will_no_one_think_of_the_white_people/

The New York Times asinine new Hillary meme: Will no one think of the white people?

Every week brings a new narrative about how Hillary Clinton, the breakaway favorite in the 2016 presidential race, is blowing it. This weekend we learned from the New York Times that shes thoughtlessly abandoning her husbands 23-year-old political strategy, which relied on luring white working class and southern voters back to the Democrats, in favor of Barack Obamas far narrower path to the presidency.

The headline frames the magnitude of her blunder: Hillary Clinton traces friendly path, troubling party. So even Democrats are troubled by the Clinton campaigns calculus? Thats bad.

Well, no. A few red state Democrats are troubled. But more people are probably troubled by the venerated New York Times claiming that Barack Obama, the first Democrat to win more than 50 percent of the vote twice since Franklin Delano Roosevelt, traced a far narrower electoral path than Clinton.

Obama won 69 million votes in 2008 and 66 million in 2012; Clinton won 45 million and 47 million in 1992 and 1996. Obama won 365, then 332 electoral votes; Clinton did better, with 370 and 379. But turnout in 2012 was a remarkable (for the U.S.) 58.2 percent, compared with 49 percent in Clintons second race. Obama won bigger margins among African Americans, Latinos, Asians, young voters and women than Clinton did. Both Democrats lost white working class voters overall, though Clinton lost more narrowly.

By what metric, then, could Obama be said to have cut a "far narrower path to the presidency" than Bill Clinton did? Only if the only voters that matter are white.

On Twitter, Maggie Haberman (a writer I admire, for the record) defended the piece by noting that she and Jonathan Martin were merely reporting the concerns of prominent red state Democrats. Thats fine, as far as it goes. By all means, lets hear West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchins thoughts on how Democrats should run for president.

"Go ask Al Gore," Manchin told the Times. Hed be president with five electoral votes from West Virginia. So it is big, and it can make a difference. Actually, Gore would be president if he had one more vote on the Supreme Court, or if Florida counted all of its voters. It pains me to say, but there are many viable Democratic paths to the presidency that are easier than winning back West Virginia.

Haberman and Martin also tip their hands with folderol like this: "This early in the campaignforgoing a determined outreach effort to all 50 states, or even most of them, could mean missing out on the kind of spirited conversation that can be a unifying feature of a presidential election."

Notice how Democrats are responsible for "unifying" a divided nation. Nobody is asking when well see even one of the 19 and counting Republican candidates visiting, say, Harlem during this campaign cycle. Its another example of how well-meaning journalists ignore the rightward drift of the Republican Party and the troubling fact that, in the age of Obama, white southern voters have become so thoroughly hostile to Democrats that Hillary Clinton couldnt reassemble her husbands coalition if she tried.

Oh, by the way, later the story reveals that Clinton actually has organizers in all 50 states already, a fact shared by senior Clinton campaign officials in that controversial briefing last month. We also learn that "Senate Democrats are hopeful that she will lift their prospects, because there is considerable overlap in crucial states: The results in Colorado, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio and Wisconsin will almost certainly determine both who wins the White House and which party controls the Senate."

So shes got organizers in 50 states, and her campaign is targeting the seven crucial swing states listed above. What exactly is her campaign doing wrong?
Matt Taibbi - In Classic Clintonian Fashion, Dems Insult Their Own Voters

Say this for the Democrats in the Clinton era: they're never boring.

From brilliant responses to sex scandals to impossible smoke-but-not-inhale policy hedges to calculated collapses on everything from gay rights to financial deregulation, the Clinton Dems over the years have proven themselves masters of messaging and political survival.

They've turned the act of choosing winning over principle into an art form.

The latest trick? Insulting their own voters at the start of a race. It would be unbelievable, if they hadn't spent decades preparing us to believe it.

The background for the latest chutzpah-rich gambit has been an alarming slide in Hillary Clinton's recent polling numbers. A series of different surveys have all shown that in the wake of her email scandal and revelations about the Clinton Foundation, Hillary's negatives have jumped, and her positives are way down.

"Less than 50 percent of respondents" have favorable feelings about the candidate, as Michael Barone at Real Clear Politics put it.

In response, the Clinton campaign is launching a campaign to fire up the liberal base. They're going to accomplish this, they say, by having Hillary adopt "polarizing" positions she doesn't actually believe in. This comes via a trial balloon the campaign itself floated in The New York Times over the weekend.

In "Hillary Clinton Traces Friendly Path, Troubling Party," Clinton aides reveal to reporters Jonathan Martin and Maggie Haberman that Hillary is being forced to abandon her preferred political path – as they breathlessly describe it, "the nationwide electoral strategy that won her husband two terms in the White House and brought white working-class voters and great stretches of what is now red-state America back to Democrats."

They go on:

"Instead, she is poised to retrace Barack Obama's far narrower path to the presidency: a campaign focused more on mobilizing supporters… than on persuading undecided voters.

Mrs. Clinton's aides say it is the only way to win in an era of heightened polarization… Her liberal policy positions, they say, will fire up Democrats, a less difficult task than trying to win over independents in more hostile territory — even though a broader strategy could help lift the party with her."

The first thing that jumps out about this story is that it comes directly from the Clinton campaign.

The main sources on the news part of the piece are unnamed "Mrs. Clinton's aides." The quotes in the analysis portion, meanwhile, come mainly from a list of current and former Democratic operatives like David Plouffe, Dan Pfeiffer and Robby Mook.

So this wasn't leaked out to the Times by accident. It was spoon-fed to the paper by the party, which put this "left turn" out there to see how it plays.

Either that, or they already know how it's going to play and just need the press to blow out the story for them.

Given the sources, the way the strategic turn is described is incredible. Both the named and unnamed Democrats spend the whole text pissing on their own strategy (and by extension their own targeted voters) from a great height.

They make it clear that turning away from Bill Clinton's cherished demographic of southern white moderates, and toward the Obama base of "young, nonwhite and female voters," is something they're only doing with extreme reluctance.

They describe rhetoric for the young-female-nonwhite coalition as "narrow," while a Bill Clinton-style turn toward the red states would be a "broader" strategy that would "lift the party with her."

In the Times piece, this line is followed by a slew of quotes from establishment Dems about the perils of turning toward the base. And it's capped by an on-the-record quote from Mook, Hillary's current campaign manager, who is described as "unmoved" by such concerns:

"I think everybody understands how tough it's going to be next year if we get through the primary… So I'm not concerned about hand-wringing on the strategy."

In other words: "We hate doing this, but it's the only way to win. Bear with us."

As political messaging goes, it's a remarkably perverse way to kick off a campaign. It's like going on a date and announcing before the appetizers arrive that the only reason you're here is that the person you really wanted to go out with turned you down.

As in: "Please don't think I really like you. It's just that going out with you is the only way I'm going to get laid."

The Clintons have long been masters of this kind of rhetoric, only in the other direction. The Democratic Party spent much of the nineties and 2000s reassuring their base through similar leaks and off-the-record/background comments.

The whispers back then told us that Third Way Democrats like the Clintons or Al Gore were really raging liberal pacifists at heart, and only voted for things like the Iraq War or the Patriot Act or "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" because they needed to head rightward to win elections and keep the big bad evil Republicans at bay.

What they're saying now is the opposite. The country, they say, has become so polarized that they need to head left and "narrowly" pick sides, instead of "broadly" hedging in order to win.

Citing Democratic sources, the Times reporters dismissively describe this turn toward the base as the "Obama strategy." And they say the party has concluded it has no choice but to embrace it. As the Times puts it:

"[The Obama strategy] is unavoidable, given that there are few genuine independents now and that technology increasingly lets campaigns pinpoint their most likely voters."

In pursuing this strategy, Hillary will be asking for forbearance from social conservatives while she targets women, gays and nonwhite voters on social issues, instead of going after middle-class whites the way her husband did using platforms like welfare reform.

Moreover, the party wants big business to hang tough while Hillary slings Warren-Sanders-style anti-business rhetoric in an effort to increase turnout.

The truly crazy thing about this is that the Warren-Sanders strategy actually would be the broad bipartisan strategy, if only the Democrats would stop apologizing for it.

Particularly on the Wall Street front, there is a broad left-right coalition to be built, if the Democrats had any interest in building it.

Such coalitions have already succeeded in the House and the Senate, where politicians like Ron Paul and Sanders have teamed up to audit the Fed, and Republicans like David Vitter have teamed up with Dems like Sherrod Brown in campaigns against Too-Big-To-Fail banking monopolies.

It's called the 99 percent for a reason. Very few actual people on the left or the right genuinely like the way the modern economy works. The right kind of criticism would fly in both camps.

Liberals are critical of modern high finance because it leads to unchecked abuses of corporate power. True conservatives are against it because the current financial system is a perverted form of capitalism that discourages competition in favor of state-supported pseudo-monopolies, putting taxpayers on the hook to bail out loser companies.

If the Democratic Party had the stones to dive into that issue with both feet, they would build a true bipartisan coalition overnight and keep the White House for decades.

Instead, they use leaks like this Times piece to reassure donors the anti-Wall Street rhetoric coming is all talk. Doing the right thing is so totally alien to them that they feel they need to apologize before they do it.

The irony is, Hillary probably wouldn't have such high negatives right now if the public didn't have decades of exactly this sort of Clintonian face-switching and poll-chasing to stew over.

In fact, in a just world, this latest decision to overcome voter indifference by putting on an Elizabeth Warren mask through the primary season would be rewarded by even stiffer slides down the polls. Even hardcore progressives would probably respect her more if she stuck to the eely faux-center the Third Way Dems have been staking out since the late Eighties.

But if history is any guide, that won't happen. The guess here is that Hillary and Democrats have run the numbers. They'll shake a few fists at The Man on the campaign trail, just enough to sneak by on poll day. Then, once in office, they'll revert back in office to being the shameless policy sellouts they've always been.

It would be gross even if they weren't openly telling us that's the plan. But with this trial balloon, that's exactly what they're doing. It'll be interesting to see if American voters have enough self-respect to be offended.

 
http://www.nytimes.c...v=top-news&_r=0

I thought the above was interesting.
Meh.

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/the_new_york_times_asinine_new_hillary_meme_will_no_one_think_of_the_white_people/

The New York Times asinine new Hillary meme: Will no one think of the white people?

Every week brings a new narrative about how Hillary Clinton, the breakaway favorite in the 2016 presidential race, is blowing it. This weekend we learned from the New York Times that shes thoughtlessly abandoning her husbands 23-year-old political strategy, which relied on luring white working class and southern voters back to the Democrats, in favor of Barack Obamas far narrower path to the presidency.

The headline frames the magnitude of her blunder: Hillary Clinton traces friendly path, troubling party. So even Democrats are troubled by the Clinton campaigns calculus? Thats bad.

Well, no. A few red state Democrats are troubled. But more people are probably troubled by the venerated New York Times claiming that Barack Obama, the first Democrat to win more than 50 percent of the vote twice since Franklin Delano Roosevelt, traced a far narrower electoral path than Clinton.

Obama won 69 million votes in 2008 and 66 million in 2012; Clinton won 45 million and 47 million in 1992 and 1996. Obama won 365, then 332 electoral votes; Clinton did better, with 370 and 379. But turnout in 2012 was a remarkable (for the U.S.) 58.2 percent, compared with 49 percent in Clintons second race. Obama won bigger margins among African Americans, Latinos, Asians, young voters and women than Clinton did. Both Democrats lost white working class voters overall, though Clinton lost more narrowly.

By what metric, then, could Obama be said to have cut a "far narrower path to the presidency" than Bill Clinton did? Only if the only voters that matter are white.

On Twitter, Maggie Haberman (a writer I admire, for the record) defended the piece by noting that she and Jonathan Martin were merely reporting the concerns of prominent red state Democrats. Thats fine, as far as it goes. By all means, lets hear West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchins thoughts on how Democrats should run for president.

"Go ask Al Gore," Manchin told the Times. Hed be president with five electoral votes from West Virginia. So it is big, and it can make a difference. Actually, Gore would be president if he had one more vote on the Supreme Court, or if Florida counted all of its voters. It pains me to say, but there are many viable Democratic paths to the presidency that are easier than winning back West Virginia.

Haberman and Martin also tip their hands with folderol like this: "This early in the campaignforgoing a determined outreach effort to all 50 states, or even most of them, could mean missing out on the kind of spirited conversation that can be a unifying feature of a presidential election."

Notice how Democrats are responsible for "unifying" a divided nation. Nobody is asking when well see even one of the 19 and counting Republican candidates visiting, say, Harlem during this campaign cycle. Its another example of how well-meaning journalists ignore the rightward drift of the Republican Party and the troubling fact that, in the age of Obama, white southern voters have become so thoroughly hostile to Democrats that Hillary Clinton couldnt reassemble her husbands coalition if she tried.

Oh, by the way, later the story reveals that Clinton actually has organizers in all 50 states already, a fact shared by senior Clinton campaign officials in that controversial briefing last month. We also learn that "Senate Democrats are hopeful that she will lift their prospects, because there is considerable overlap in crucial states: The results in Colorado, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio and Wisconsin will almost certainly determine both who wins the White House and which party controls the Senate."

So shes got organizers in 50 states, and her campaign is targeting the seven crucial swing states listed above. What exactly is her campaign doing wrong?
Matt Taibbi - In Classic Clintonian Fashion, Dems Insult Their Own Voters

Say this for the Democrats in the Clinton era: they're never boring.

From brilliant responses to sex scandals to impossible smoke-but-not-inhale policy hedges to calculated collapses on everything from gay rights to financial deregulation, the Clinton Dems over the years have proven themselves masters of messaging and political survival.

They've turned the act of choosing winning over principle into an art form.

The latest trick? Insulting their own voters at the start of a race. It would be unbelievable, if they hadn't spent decades preparing us to believe it.

The background for the latest chutzpah-rich gambit has been an alarming slide in Hillary Clinton's recent polling numbers. A series of different surveys have all shown that in the wake of her email scandal and revelations about the Clinton Foundation, Hillary's negatives have jumped, and her positives are way down.

"Less than 50 percent of respondents" have favorable feelings about the candidate, as Michael Barone at Real Clear Politics put it.

In response, the Clinton campaign is launching a campaign to fire up the liberal base. They're going to accomplish this, they say, by having Hillary adopt "polarizing" positions she doesn't actually believe in. This comes via a trial balloon the campaign itself floated in The New York Times over the weekend.

In "Hillary Clinton Traces Friendly Path, Troubling Party," Clinton aides reveal to reporters Jonathan Martin and Maggie Haberman that Hillary is being forced to abandon her preferred political path – as they breathlessly describe it, "the nationwide electoral strategy that won her husband two terms in the White House and brought white working-class voters and great stretches of what is now red-state America back to Democrats."

They go on:

"Instead, she is poised to retrace Barack Obama's far narrower path to the presidency: a campaign focused more on mobilizing supporters… than on persuading undecided voters.

Mrs. Clinton's aides say it is the only way to win in an era of heightened polarization… Her liberal policy positions, they say, will fire up Democrats, a less difficult task than trying to win over independents in more hostile territory — even though a broader strategy could help lift the party with her."

The first thing that jumps out about this story is that it comes directly from the Clinton campaign.

The main sources on the news part of the piece are unnamed "Mrs. Clinton's aides." The quotes in the analysis portion, meanwhile, come mainly from a list of current and former Democratic operatives like David Plouffe, Dan Pfeiffer and Robby Mook.

So this wasn't leaked out to the Times by accident. It was spoon-fed to the paper by the party, which put this "left turn" out there to see how it plays.

Either that, or they already know how it's going to play and just need the press to blow out the story for them.

Given the sources, the way the strategic turn is described is incredible. Both the named and unnamed Democrats spend the whole text pissing on their own strategy (and by extension their own targeted voters) from a great height.

They make it clear that turning away from Bill Clinton's cherished demographic of southern white moderates, and toward the Obama base of "young, nonwhite and female voters," is something they're only doing with extreme reluctance.

They describe rhetoric for the young-female-nonwhite coalition as "narrow," while a Bill Clinton-style turn toward the red states would be a "broader" strategy that would "lift the party with her."

In the Times piece, this line is followed by a slew of quotes from establishment Dems about the perils of turning toward the base. And it's capped by an on-the-record quote from Mook, Hillary's current campaign manager, who is described as "unmoved" by such concerns:

"I think everybody understands how tough it's going to be next year if we get through the primary… So I'm not concerned about hand-wringing on the strategy."

In other words: "We hate doing this, but it's the only way to win. Bear with us."

As political messaging goes, it's a remarkably perverse way to kick off a campaign. It's like going on a date and announcing before the appetizers arrive that the only reason you're here is that the person you really wanted to go out with turned you down.

As in: "Please don't think I really like you. It's just that going out with you is the only way I'm going to get laid."

The Clintons have long been masters of this kind of rhetoric, only in the other direction. The Democratic Party spent much of the nineties and 2000s reassuring their base through similar leaks and off-the-record/background comments.

The whispers back then told us that Third Way Democrats like the Clintons or Al Gore were really raging liberal pacifists at heart, and only voted for things like the Iraq War or the Patriot Act or "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" because they needed to head rightward to win elections and keep the big bad evil Republicans at bay.

What they're saying now is the opposite. The country, they say, has become so polarized that they need to head left and "narrowly" pick sides, instead of "broadly" hedging in order to win.

Citing Democratic sources, the Times reporters dismissively describe this turn toward the base as the "Obama strategy." And they say the party has concluded it has no choice but to embrace it. As the Times puts it:

"[The Obama strategy] is unavoidable, given that there are few genuine independents now and that technology increasingly lets campaigns pinpoint their most likely voters."

In pursuing this strategy, Hillary will be asking for forbearance from social conservatives while she targets women, gays and nonwhite voters on social issues, instead of going after middle-class whites the way her husband did using platforms like welfare reform.

Moreover, the party wants big business to hang tough while Hillary slings Warren-Sanders-style anti-business rhetoric in an effort to increase turnout.

The truly crazy thing about this is that the Warren-Sanders strategy actually would be the broad bipartisan strategy, if only the Democrats would stop apologizing for it.

Particularly on the Wall Street front, there is a broad left-right coalition to be built, if the Democrats had any interest in building it.

Such coalitions have already succeeded in the House and the Senate, where politicians like Ron Paul and Sanders have teamed up to audit the Fed, and Republicans like David Vitter have teamed up with Dems like Sherrod Brown in campaigns against Too-Big-To-Fail banking monopolies.

It's called the 99 percent for a reason. Very few actual people on the left or the right genuinely like the way the modern economy works. The right kind of criticism would fly in both camps.

Liberals are critical of modern high finance because it leads to unchecked abuses of corporate power. True conservatives are against it because the current financial system is a perverted form of capitalism that discourages competition in favor of state-supported pseudo-monopolies, putting taxpayers on the hook to bail out loser companies.

If the Democratic Party had the stones to dive into that issue with both feet, they would build a true bipartisan coalition overnight and keep the White House for decades.

Instead, they use leaks like this Times piece to reassure donors the anti-Wall Street rhetoric coming is all talk. Doing the right thing is so totally alien to them that they feel they need to apologize before they do it.

The irony is, Hillary probably wouldn't have such high negatives right now if the public didn't have decades of exactly this sort of Clintonian face-switching and poll-chasing to stew over.

In fact, in a just world, this latest decision to overcome voter indifference by putting on an Elizabeth Warren mask through the primary season would be rewarded by even stiffer slides down the polls. Even hardcore progressives would probably respect her more if she stuck to the eely faux-center the Third Way Dems have been staking out since the late Eighties.

But if history is any guide, that won't happen. The guess here is that Hillary and Democrats have run the numbers. They'll shake a few fists at The Man on the campaign trail, just enough to sneak by on poll day. Then, once in office, they'll revert back in office to being the shameless policy sellouts they've always been.

It would be gross even if they weren't openly telling us that's the plan. But with this trial balloon, that's exactly what they're doing. It'll be interesting to see if American voters have enough self-respect to be offended.
It's an interesting take and it's something coming from Matt Taibbi, and I think it's really insightful. I don't think enough voters see it as deeply as he does to understand that they should be offended or actually be offended but as Taibbi points out they should be.

I also find the Clinton aides' comment about independents striking, I can't imagine such a comment coming from the Obama camp, they treasured independents like rocks of gold, but I also don't think it's accurate.

 
Well this morning the H speaks on Rosie Isle and we will see what she has.

For one thing I can't think of another political candidate who has had to reintroduce herself so often. It's constant with Hillary, and she is going to do it again today. She is going to tell us about her mother and her struggle and she is going to introduce her "four fights" - economy, middle class families, unaccountable {*cough, barp*} money in politics (by which she means she hasn't finished counting it all), and protecting the country from foreign threats.

This is going to tie in with talking about her mother (hello, reintroduction time again, yasee this is the real Hillary, people) and the Roosevelts. FDR had his Four Freedoms - of speech, of religion, from want, from fear. Somehow I think H will focus on the last two but not the first two. I mean, we're not interested in all those Freedoms, Franklin, but thanks.

But I do think the larger rally is a good move, she needs to do this and personally I think she's late on it. But it's a good move. Hopefully for her the crowd is sizable and not in some ways blocked by the inaccessible nature of the site and the time of day on a Saturday. We shall see, it could be a huge hit, it could be defining and truly launch her. And I think she needs to take that into speaking to larger crows in IA & elsewhere.

I also saw David Axelrod on Msnbc this am and he said that Hillary's problems are 1. her lack of message, what is the compelling reason she is running for president? 2. people don't believe she has a core so they don't trust her - he did not said that exactly, that's my phrasing, ie not in that way, his point was this is why she has to introduce yet again with her mother as the focal point this time because people like Bernie Sanders and Obama speak from some inner set of beliefs, so the people trust them when they speak, and Hillary does not have that, and 3. (again) trust.

Anyway this morning should be one of those great moment sin American politics, let's see where it takes her and us.

 
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I thought this was an interesting piece from 2005 about her then future now past run in 2008, from the NYT:

Mrs. Triangulation...Clinton, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with ideological crusades, and she has thus far resisted the pull of rising antiestablishment forces -- bloggers, donors and activists -- who are fast becoming today's equivalent of the 60's left. Instead, Hillary (as she is universally known) has navigated with extreme caution through the party's fast-changing landscape, and if she has evolved as a public figure, it is in a way that has distanced her from the party's more liberal base. She has never renounced her initial support for the invasion of Iraq, and has in fact lobbied for recruiting an additional 80,000 Army troops. She has recently taken the opportunity, in much publicized speeches, to denounce unwanted pregnancies and violent video games. And at a time when the new activists brand any bipartisan cooperation as treachery, Clinton seems to pop up every week next to some conservative who has joined her on an issue like health-care modernization or soldiers' benefits.

In fact, among pundits and strategists of both parties as well as the reporters who cover them, a story line about Clinton has now taken hold, and it goes like this: While she is at heart a more stridently liberal and polarizing figure than her husband, Hillary Clinton is now consciously reinventing herself publicly as a middle-of-the-road pragmatist. According to this theory, she has resolved, along with her cadre of canny advisers, to brazenly "reposition" herself as the kind of soothing centrist that middle-class white voters might actually accept as the first female president. "A couple of weeks ago, certainly a couple months ago, Hillary was off there on the left," Chris Matthews, a reliable gauge of predictable Washington wisdom, told his viewers on MSNBC in May. "We thought of her with Barbra Streisand, Barbara Boxer, Rob Reiner, Chuck Schumer even. Now I see her as sort of part of this drift toward the center."


The problem with this idea, which goes virtually unchallenged in Washington, is that it simply trades one caricature for another. Hillary the war-protesting, Joni Mitchell-loving feminist has now been transformed into Hillary the calculating Lady Macbeth who will deliver any speech handed to her if it helps reclaim her husband's throne. Neither stereotype, in fact, is especially credible, and neither helps to resolve the puzzle of where Hillary Clinton actually wants to take her party -- beyond, perhaps, returning it to the White House.

...In the White House, especially after the president embarked on his "triangulation" strategy, there was a tactical value in having Clinton's influential wife cast in the role of liberal emissary. "He made a lot of people angry, including me, but he had to do what he had to do to survive," says Bob Kerrey, then a Democratic senator. "In many ways, what Mrs. Clinton was having to do at that time was to go out to the liberal groups and say, 'Hey, it's going to be O.K."'


And yet politicians rarely live in the narrow ideological boxes we like to create for them, and Hillary Clinton was probably never as dogmatic as her most ardent critics and supporters insisted she was. She did, after all, propose controversial education reform in Arkansas, where she picked a gratuitous and colossal fight with the teachers' union by demanding that teachers submit to testing. And she strongly lobbied liberal members of Congress to support her husband's crime bill, which expanded the federal death penalty, and supported his welfare-reform plan, which prompted one of her close friends, the former Kennedy aide Peter Edelman, to resign from the administration.

...

When I asked one of Hillary's closest policy advisers, Neera Tanden, why Hillary seemed more comfortable with the Pentagon brass than a lot of her colleagues are, she thought for a moment before replying. "She's not authoritarian," Tanden said, "but she has a deep respect for authority." In this sense, Clinton is very much a Southern Democrat like her husband (or, for that matter, an Eisenhower Republican like her father) and less of a social liberal than she is often portrayed. When she talks about her opposition to gay marriage, her preference for abstinence or her disapproval of violent movies, she means it. Leon Panetta, who was President Clinton's second chief of staff, remembers joining a group of White House aides and the first couple for a private screening of "Pulp Fiction," the Quentin Tarantino movie, at Camp David. Not long into the film, disgusted by all the blood, the first lady walked out.

There's not much evidence to suggest that Clinton has changed her rhetoric on any of these social issues. Much of the talk about her repositioning herself was prompted by a January speech to abortion rights activists in Albany, in which Clinton called abortion "a sad, even tragic choice." She also said that she respected those who opposed abortion and that "there is an opportunity for people of good faith to find common ground in this debate." Coming at a time when Democrats were publicly beating their chests over their inability to articulate moral values, the speech was widely cited as proof that she was making a dash for the political center. In reality, her comments were hardly distinguishable from others she made in the past. Six years earlier, in a similar speech, Clinton told the National Abortion Rights Action League, "I think it's essential that as Americans we look for that common ground that we can all stand upon." And she repeated her husband's formulation that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare." Of course, in 1999 nobody cared what she said to Naral. Now people do.

...It would be naïve to think that Clinton doesn't have a national campaign very much in mind as she stacks up one centrist credential after another. Clearly, she does, and if she runs, her campaign could well redefine, or at least modernize, the image of New York politics on a national scale. With its rarefied brand of Manhattan liberalism and its history of Boss Tweed-style machine politics, New York, going back to the days of Alexander Hamilton and Martin Van Buren, has always managed, somehow, to exemplify both aristocratic privilege and base corruption at the same time. Perhaps this explains why the state's last great Democrat, Mario Cuomo, twice demurred on seeking the White House; surely Cuomo understood that he would be cast as both a condescending intellectual and a boss of the old-school ethnic variety, either one of which by itself would have been hard for even a brilliant orator and three-term governor to dispel in a rural state like Iowa or New Hampshire.

...Assuming that Clinton is serious about a 2008 campaign, it's never too early to begin redefining her image in the minds of independent and conservative voters. And the thinking among her closest advisers holds that unlike other prospective candidates with conservative leanings, like Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana or Gov. Mark Warner of Virginia, Clinton doesn't have to worry about winning over more liberal base voters; she's an icon of the left, and short of climbing into a tank and invading a country all by herself, she couldn't do much to change that. By this theory, Clinton gets to have it both ways: her consistent centrist record will convince general-election voters that she is not the archetype they thought she was, and Democratic-primary voters will forgive her more conservative positions because, in their minds, she is saying such things only to make herself "electable." It's a strategy so elegant that even Karl Rove would have to smile in appreciation.

..."I think people are looking for leadership from Hillary Clinton, and she's not showing any leadership on anything," says Markos Moulitsas of Dailykos.com, one of the new movement's leading blogs. Even in Hollywood, where the Clintons have been royalty for more than a decade, patience for bipartisanship is running low. Last month in Beverly Hills, I talked about Clinton with Norman Lear, the television and film producer who founded the liberal organization People for the American Way. "I love her," he told me. "But as terrific as I think she is, my concern is that we need someone who will tell the truth as they see it all of the time. She, like all of them, is not somebody who does that."

That Clinton doesn't fully understand the depth of this resentment seemed painfully apparent in July, when, at the D.L.C.'s annual gathering in Columbus, she accepted the assignment of fashioning a new agenda for the group and publicly called for a truce between factions on the left and center. Her aides thought she was actually delivering a mild rebuke to the D.L.C. for criticizing Dean and the bloggers; what they didn't understand was that her presence at the D.L.C. event itself was enough to infuriate the "Net roots," and the suggestion that the two sides should work together made it only worse. The response from the blogosphere was swift and bilious. "It's truly disappointing" that this is the garbage "Hillary has signed on to," Moulitsas wrote on Dailykos.com, provoking the blog's devotees to write hundreds of passionate and often profane diatribes in agreement.

...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/magazine/mrs-triangulation.html

 
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I thought this was an interesting piece from 2005 about her then future now past run in 2008, from the NYT:
Please Hillary, hurry up and give the speech so that poor Saints has something to talk about for the next week instead of scouring the internet for 10 year old articles about you.

 
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.

 
I don't see any reason for Hillary to say a whole lot right now. Despite the unfavorable opinion of her being higher than before, she is still miles ahead of Sanders and the other Dems. She has nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking right now.

FYI, I am fairly liberal on most issues. I am not the biggest Hillary fan around. But I don't think Sanders could ever win a general. Also, I am not automatically voting for a Dem. It is way too early to decide. I have voted for some Republicans in my life because I thought they were the best candidate at thst particular time.

 
Haven't seen the size of the crowd yet.

Also the efforts to connect this 1%er who made her money off "public" service are funny - her dad OWNED that factory, his company was in the Chicago Trade Mart, she grew up in rich north Chicago, she went to Yale & Wellesley, and she has made like $200 million and maybe more since 2000.

 
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
She isn't centrist. She isn't liberal. She is a tool of corporations and large special interest groups that fund her. Nothing more, nothing less.

America should be led by people with principles and character, even if they don't follow my ideological beliefs (which you have mischaracterized). Clinton has neither.

 
Protecting America from cyber attacks... from a woman who stashed State Department's highest data in her house's mud room...

 
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This speech is absolutely hilarious. Railing against the Bush years that she was Senator during and the war she voted for. You can almost see the train wreck coming already. :popcorn:

 
Watching this thing back and wondering, has she not taken the time to get ANY sort of speech giving lessons since 2008? She's so bad at this part.

 
Supposedly they were expecting or hoping for 5,000 in attendance but the SOR was completely unfilled so they fell short of that. Still several "thousands" in attendance albeit not capacity. The backdrop was less grand than I expected, I guess one idea was her ability to point behind her to the new Freedom Tower. The "Four Fights" is an old fashioned nod to the the old presidential themes like "Four Freedoms." Not sure if the theme itself is that good though.

 
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So....what exactly are the "four fights"?

Economy, Big Business, "security" (yeah, that's started well)....what else? Families? These the pillars of her campaign?

 
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Another odd thing that struck me - could you have imagined Obama saying, "but I know one thing i may be young but I'll be the youngest black president ever!"? Or Bernie saying something similar about being the first Jewish president? It's definitely a motivator for her campaign but the way she does it just seems self-conscious.

 
Watching this thing back and wondering, has she not taken the time to get ANY sort of speech giving lessons since 2008? She's so bad at this part.
The reading from the script thing hurts her I think, her eyes and her face are constantly shifting back and forth. She's never extemporaneous, she rarely connects with the camera or crowd for long if at all.

 
Protecting America from cyber attacks... from a woman who stashed State Department's highest data in her house's mud room...
You gotta give it to her, she has no shame.
Im shocked that the two of you aren't turned around by this speech. After all it's open minds like yours that she's targeting.
Who *is she targeting then in your opinion? Independents? The ~40% of Democrats who still won't even name her as a 2nd choice? The 'Clinton Republicans' her husband used to get and whom she used to pursue?

 
Hillary's speech was bland. I guess it was OK.

If one is for the TPP, or free trade agreements in general, yesterday's events are a good reason why Hillary should be our next President. Simply put, I believe that Hilary would have twisted enough arms among Democrats to get the TPP passed. No Republican could have done it. And Obama was too weak to do it. Hillary alone among Dems right now would have done it. She is LBJ to Obama's JFK or Wilson. She knows the machinery and she's spent years forging relationships.

Now I know that Saints is going to point out that Hillary doesn't even have a stated opinion on the TPP, but that has nothing to do with what she'll actually do once she's in office.

 
Protecting America from cyber attacks... from a woman who stashed State Department's highest data in her house's mud room...
You gotta give it to her, she has no shame.
Im shocked that the two of you aren't turned around by this speech. After all it's open minds like yours that she's targeting.
Who *is she targeting then in your opinion? Independents? The ~40% of Democrats who still won't even name her as a 2nd choice? The 'Clinton Republicans' her husband used to get and whom she used to pursue?
I was joking. She's not really targeting anyone right now, just staying out in front of the news cycle in a positive way. Her campaign is a bit analogous to an NFL team having clinched home field advantage throughout the playoffs, with a few games left on the schedule. You don't want to lose your edge but you don't want to risk injury either.

 
Watching this thing back and wondering, has she not taken the time to get ANY sort of speech giving lessons since 2008? She's so bad at this part.
The reading from the script thing hurts her I think, her eyes and her face are constantly shifting back and forth. She's never extemporaneous, she rarely connects with the camera or crowd for long if at all.
She needs those teleprompters in front of her that most people use. That'd probably help a ton. It's bad enough that people don't trust her. When she's giving speeches and making zero eye contact because she can't remember her speech and checking her notes constantly, that doesn't help.

 
She's not a good speech maker. She's a good talker and debater, but she lacks that ability to give soaring speeches that move people.

That's OK. I turn 50 this month, and I've lived through 9 Presidents, starting with LBJ. How many of them were gifted speech makers?

Reagan

Bill Clinton

Obama

That's 3 out of 9. The other 6 weren't any better or worse than Hillary.

 
Hillary's speech was bland. I guess it was OK.

If one is for the TPP, or free trade agreements in general, yesterday's events are a good reason why Hillary should be our next President. Simply put, I believe that Hilary would have twisted enough arms among Democrats to get the TPP passed. No Republican could have done it. And Obama was too weak to do it. Hillary alone among Dems right now would have done it. She is LBJ to Obama's JFK or Wilson. She knows the machinery and she's spent years forging relationships.

Now I know that Saints is going to point out that Hillary doesn't even have a stated opinion on the TPP, but that has nothing to do with what she'll actually do once she's in office.
Good comparison. And while her speech making prowess suffers in comparison to Obama and Bill, it should be noted that for those who remember LBJ or have seen clips of his speeches, he was a horrible speaker and was rather wooden in his delivery. That said, he was probably one of the best, if not best legislator of all the Presidents and was responsible more than any one person in getting the Civil Rights Act passed. It remains to be seen, but I think Hillary might have similar ability and should accomplish much more than Obama.

Interestingly, one of the reasons she initially was a heavy favorite in 2008 to win the democratic nomination was the network, the contacts of heavy hitters in every state that she and Bill had made during his Presidency that the conventional wisdom felt that Obama could not match (they didn't foresee that Obama could organize a grass roots organization from the internet). Anyway, those contacts/relationships should still help her today should she become President.

 
Debunked by Snopes. Not surprising you would post it as gospel.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/societyquote.asp

Claim: Hillary Clinton and Adolf Hitler both said that the needs of society should come before the needs of individuals.

PROBABLY FALSE

I saw on Facebook, in a type of meme, a quote attributed to Adolph Hitler. The meme stated that Hillary Clinton has said the same thing. Here is the quote: "Society's needs come before the individual's needs".

Origins: Shortly after former first lady, senator, and secretary of state Hillary Clinton announced that she would be seeking the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination, an old meme comparing her words to those of Adolf Hitler was recirculated online:

But did Hillary Clinton really say "We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society?" Furthermore, does sharing a similar idea with Adolf Hitler make you an evil person?

The purported quotation from Hillary Clinton ("We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society") has been widely reproduced online over the last several years and has been included in dozens of books; yet no one seems to know when, where, or in what context she supposedly said it. Some sources claim that Hillary Clinton uttered those words sometime in 1993 (during her initial year as First Lady) but provide no documentation beyond simply citing a year. [...]

Given the complete lack of any documentation that Hillary Clinton actually spoke the words attributed to her, the likely conclusion is that this alleged Hitlerian echo quote is a fabricated "Hillariasm."

Moreover, we came up short attempting to document the original quotation of Hitler's that Hillary Clinton supposedly reflected with her own words. It appears to be, at best, a loose paraphrase of something Hitler once said (or someone's idea of the type of thing Hitler might have said), as noted in the book From a Race of Masters to a Master Race:

 
My lord - Hillary is LBJ? And Obama is Kennedy? Good comp? Are you freakin' kidding? That is so rich when you think about how Hillary denigrated MLK and claimed he did not bring the 64 CRA and then compared herself to Johnson. Which maybe would make sense if the comp was Iraq/Vietnam, but she was talking about healthcare. Now I have a hundred criticisms about how the ACA was passed and what it does, BUT Hillary botched the only substantive assignment she was given in the Clinton administration (well aside from the the Travel office) while Obama did in fact pass the legislation. Not to mention LBJ's rep as a master legislator dating back to the TX legislature, for what 30 years before he became president? And Hillary's most notable accomplishment was convincing other Denos to vote for the Iraq Wat and give cover to the GOP? WTH.

 
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My lord - Hillary is LBJ? And Obama is Kennedy? Good comp? Are you freakin' kidding? That is so rich when you think about how Hillary denigrated MLK and claimed he did not bring the 64 CRA and then compared herself to Johnson. Which maybe would make sense if the comp was Iraq/Vietnam, but she was talking about healthcare. Now I have a hundred criticisms about how the ACA was passed and what it does, BUT Hillary botched the only substantive assignment she was given in the Clinton administration (well aside from the the Travel office) while Obama did in fact pass the legislation. Not to mention LBJ's rep as a master legislator dating back to the TX legislature, for what 30 years before he became president? And Hillary's most notable accomplishment was convincing other Denos to vote for the Iraq Wat and give cover to the GOP? WTH.
Perhaps Timmy and I went a bit overboard with the hyperbole in the excitement over the Roosevelt Island speech. :hophead:

 
My lord - Hillary is LBJ? And Obama is Kennedy? Good comp? Are you freakin' kidding? That is so rich when you think about how Hillary denigrated MLK and claimed he did not bring the 64 CRA and then compared herself to Johnson. Which maybe would make sense if the comp was Iraq/Vietnam, but she was talking about healthcare. Now I have a hundred criticisms about how the ACA was passed and what it does, BUT Hillary botched the only substantive assignment she was given in the Clinton administration (well aside from the the Travel office) while Obama did in fact pass the legislation. Not to mention LBJ's rep as a master legislator dating back to the TX legislature, for what 30 years before he became president? And Hillary's most notable accomplishment was convincing other Denos to vote for the Iraq Wat and give cover to the GOP? WTH.
Would a good liberal say ask not what your country can do for you ( ebt cards,Obama phones, earned income tax credits, child tax credits, tax cuts your favorite government subsidy here ______ ) but ask what you ( teaching policing militarizing wherever America sends you) can do for your country?

Would a good conservative say that? Maybe the problems with America isn't race creed or gender but maybe liberals and conservatives.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
Just out of curiosity, who is in the conversation for the most sincere?

:popcorn:

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
Just out of curiosity, who is in the conversation for the most sincere?

:popcorn:
Not you, Thing 2.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
:no:

I don't always get everything right, and I often make mistakes and say stupid stuff I regret later.

But almost all of the time I mean it.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
Just out of curiosity, who is in the conversation for the most sincere?

:popcorn:
Not you, Thing 2.
Never thought I was in the running. But please answer the question since you have divided this into groupings of most and least sincere.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
Just out of curiosity, who is in the conversation for the most sincere?

:popcorn:
Not you, Thing 2.
Never thought I was in the running. But please answer the question since you have divided this into groupings of most and least sincere.
Give me money and I'll answer however you want me to.

 
timschochet said:
Matt Taibbi's opinion doesn't surprise me at all. Like Slapdash and NC Commish in this forum, he basically a far left progressive who despises the centrism that the Clinton's have always represented.
Yeah, no Matt Taibbi does not despise centrism. If/when considering who is the least sincere person on the board Tim, you are definitely in the conversation.
Just out of curiosity, who is in the conversation for the most sincere?

:popcorn:
Not you, Thing 2.
Never thought I was in the running. But please answer the question since you have divided this into groupings of most and least sincere.
Give me money and I'll answer however you want me to.
Of course you would.

 
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