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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (10 Viewers)

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timschochet said:
Good morning. I see I'm being psychoanalyzed again. As if supporting Hillary is an irrational position, lol. 
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If you were in a relationship, it could be rational, even if you knew and accepted that your partner lies constantly.  But it wouldn't be a healthy relationship and it might be good to accept the viewpoint of others who don't want to be in such a relationship because they put a higher value on truth and trust.

 
pantagrapher said:
Directly: OK. This is normal campaigning and I'm sure you've seen it before. 
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"In 2006, Senator Sanders supported indefinite detention for people facing deportation and stood with the Minutemen vigilantes in their ridiculous -- absurd efforts to, quote, 'hunt down immigrants.' "
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Total outright unmitigated invented LIE designed to influence the ignorant and gullible.

 
Rich Conway said:
To try this more directly...  Hillary's comments here, OK or not OK?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/5-times-hillary-clinton-has-played-fast-and-loose-with-the-facts-on-bernie-sanderss-record/
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Absolutely OK. In fact, both the auto bailout and vote against the Kennedy immigration bill are evidence of my main criticism against Sanders: that he is an ideologue for whom good is the enemy of perfect. He rejects pragmatism. I think all 5 are reasonable criticisms (though the Koch brothers description mistated Hillary's intent, which eas to point out that candidates are not necessarily beholden to everyone who contributes to them. ) 

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Total outright unmitigated invented LIE designed to influence the ignorant and gullible.
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the Southern Poverty Law Center wasn't on board with the amendment. An official there called it "symbolic and pointless." And National Council of La Raza, the largest Hispanic advocacy group, called the amendment "a backdoor effort to criminalize the undocumented population." Fact Checker points out Sanders voted with mostly conservative Democrats on the amendment.
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Bernie Sanders "stood with the Minutemen vigilantes in their ridiculous -- absurd efforts to, quote, 'hunt down immigrants'" - is that right? That's your position?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Bernie Sanders "stood with the Minutemen vigilantes in their ridiculous -- absurd efforts to, quote, 'hunt down immigrants'" - is that right? That's your position?
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My position is that I understand exploiting an opponent's votes and using rhetoric to cast them in the worst light possible. Bernie did not literally stand with the Minutemen, but he voted for something that protected them.

 
Mr. Ham said:
Tim takes the cynical position that the campaign process is designed to placate the stupid, and therefore anything is excusable because the populace doesn't deserve the truth.  The real process he believes is played out beyond their paltry understanding, so screw them.  We can sort out what the candidates believe after they win, and even then we have to assume they'll work for some public interest then.  As long as the people get sausages and they're tasty, people don't need to see how they're made.  Doesn't matter what's in them or how much they cost.  Take what you're given and say, "More please."  
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Yep

 
timschochet said:
Absolutely OK. In fact, both the auto bailout and vote against the Kennedy immigration bill are evidence of my main criticism against Sanders: that he is an ideologue for whom good is the enemy of perfect. He rejects pragmatism. I think all 5 are reasonable criticisms (though the Koch brothers description mistated Hillary's intent, which eas to point out that candidates are not necessarily beholden to everyone who contributes to them. ) 
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Auto bailout?  It is beyond absurd to call that bill the auto bailout and you know that to be true.  It is fine IMO if you want to support Hillary and all that entails but please don't use her ridiculous talking points that hides her support of the Wall Street bailout.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
Auto bailout?  It is beyond absurd to call that bill the auto bailout and you know that to be true.  It is fine IMO if you want to support Hillary and all that entails but please don't use her ridiculous talking points that hides her support of the Wall Street bailout.
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Why would I want to hide Hillary's support for the Wall Street bailout? It's embarrassing for Sanders that he opposed it. If TARP had failed, we would have suffered a second Great Depression, worse than the first one. Obama, Bush, Nancy Pelosi and senators like Hillary saved us from that, no thanks to Bernie. 

 
timschochet said:
Why would I want to hide Hillary's support for the Wall Street bailout? It's embarrassing for Sanders that he opposed it. If TARP had failed, we would have suffered a second Great Depression, worse than the first one. Obama, Bush, Nancy Pelosi and senators like Hillary saved us from that, no thanks to Bernie. 
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And you don't think the willingness to bail out the big banks should have been conditioned with other legislation designed to make sure this all didn't happen again? Punishment for the people who were responsible for what happened? Or that there was insufficient oversight in the TARP program and process?  

 
timschochet said:
Why would I want to hide Hillary's support for the Wall Street bailout? It's embarrassing for Sanders that he opposed it. If TARP had failed, we would have suffered a second Great Depression, worse than the first one. Obama, Bush, Nancy Pelosi and senators like Hillary saved us from that, no thanks to Bernie. 
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Just call it the Wall Street bailout then, don't be silly and say it is the auto bailout

 
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Henry Ford said:
And you don't think the willingness to bail out the big banks should have been conditioned with other legislation designed to make sure this all didn't happen again? Punishment for the people who were responsible for what happened? Or that there was insufficient oversight in the TARP program and process?  
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Actually I agree with all 3 points. But I would not have voted against TARP because it lacked these parts, because it was too necessary. And I suppose that's what separates me from Bernie Sanders. I don't think of myself as an ideologue. Sometimes you have to take the best you can get. 

 
pantagrapher said:
Rich Conway said:
To try this more directly...  Hillary's comments here, OK or not OK?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/10/5-times-hillary-clinton-has-played-fast-and-loose-with-the-facts-on-bernie-sanderss-record/
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Directly: OK. This is normal campaigning and I'm sure you've seen it before. 
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Of course I've seen it before.  We all have.  That doesn't make it right.  "He did it too" and "she pushed me first" defenses don't fly with me.  We should all expect better from our representatives.

 
timschochet said:
But it was both. 
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Bernie was in favor of a stand alone auto bailout but rejected it when they rolled it into TARP.

You don't have to believe me, perhaps David Alexrod could provide his opinion:

“She did it again and I’ll say it again,” Axelrod tweeted. “It’s misleading to imply that TARP II was an auto bailout bill.”

 
Rich Conway said:
Of course I've seen it before.  We all have.  That doesn't make it right.  "He did it too" and "she pushed me first" defenses don't fly with me.  We should all expect better from our representatives.
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That wasn't my defense. I hope Bernie goes at Hillary just as strong and hits her hard on her questionable votes. There's a general election after this, and it's going to be a brutal one. A gentle, pleasant primary doesn't help either candidate.

 
All the shrugging off and ignoring of sleazy political games and sound bite gotchas with "all politicians do it" reasoning just completely misses the point of the comparison between Hillary and Bernie.  Specifically, all politicians don't do it.  For once, we actually have a chance not to shrug it off because both candidates are equally sleazy and typical politicians.  For once, we actually have a chance to endorse a candidate who doesn't play tricks to cast the opponent in the worst possible light via sound bite politics.

Shrugging it off as "they all do it" when both (or all three or four or seventeen, in the case of this year's GOP race) candidates do it is one thing.

Shrugging it off as "they all do it" when one of the candidates actively avoids it means you're actively encouraging candidates to continue doing it in the future.

 
Rich Conway said:
All the shrugging off and ignoring of sleazy political games and sound bite gotchas with "all politicians do it" reasoning just completely misses the point of the comparison between Hillary and Bernie.  Specifically, all politicians don't do it.  For once, we actually have a chance not to shrug it off because both candidates are equally sleazy and typical politicians.  For once, we actually have a chance to endorse a candidate who doesn't play tricks to cast the opponent in the worst possible light via sound bite politics.

Shrugging it off as "they all do it" when both (or all three or four or seventeen, in the case of this year's GOP race) candidates do it is one thing.

Shrugging it off as "they all do it" when one of the candidates actively avoids it means you're actively encouraging candidates to continue doing it in the future.
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Maybe following politics isn't for you.

 
timschochet said:
Actually I agree with all 3 points. But I would not have voted against TARP because it lacked these parts, because it was too necessary. And I suppose that's what separates me from Bernie Sanders. I don't think of myself as an ideologue. Sometimes you have to take the best you can get. 
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The question is, "why is that the best we can get?" 

The only answer I can come up with is the amount of money spent by the financial sector lobbying and donating to campaigns.  There's no other reason I can think of.  Why wouldn't we immediately pass those laws for nothing in return?  It's not like we need the banks' permission to regulate them, and deregulation had just been directly linked to one of the largest financial disasters in history. But then to hand out hundreds of billions of dollars for a second time without passing them?  And without getting some oversight and understanding of what was going on with the money that was already out there?

Ridiculous.  I'd like to be done voting for people who simply won't do what's in their constituents' best interests because they know they can refuse to.  And I'm certainly not using one elected official's refusal to vote against my interests as a reason not to vote for him.

 
timschochet said:
Actually I agree with all 3 points. But I would not have voted against TARP because it lacked these parts, because it was too necessary. And I suppose that's what separates me from Bernie Sanders. I don't think of myself as an ideologue. Sometimes you have to take the best you can get. 
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I'm tired of settling. I think America is too. 



 
Tim, you're actively campaigning against someone whose ideas you prefer because you think Congress won't be willing to do those things.

The solution for this country is not to vote in the person who wants to do what Congress wants.  It's to vote out the current Congress.

 
Henry Ford said:
Tim, you're actively campaigning against someone whose ideas you prefer because you think Congress won't be willing to do those things.

The solution for this country is not to vote in the person who wants to do what Congress wants.  It's to vote out the current Congress.
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That is a little difficult with all the gerrymandering the GOP has done in various states. More votes were actually cast for Democratic candidates than Republicans in the 2014 off term elections.

 
Nikki & BrieVerified account ‏@BellaTwins 17h17 hours ago

Catch me tonight on #SmackDown vs @RealSummerWWE
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going to let her know it ain't Summer Time yet!!! #BrieMode
 
squistion said:
That is a little difficult with all the gerrymandering the GOP has done in various states. More votes were actually cast for Democratic candidates than Republicans in the 2014 off term elections.
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And yet, here are the Republicans poised to do the same thing - vote out the old guard. 

Say what you want about the Republicans, at least they have the balls to go ahead and vote the establishment out of the primary when what they really want is what Trump is selling.  Jeb Bush didn't even make it past Super Tuesday.

 
Henry Ford said:
And yet, here are the Republicans poised to do the same thing - vote out the old guard. 

Say what you want about the Republicans, at least they have the balls to go ahead and vote the establishment out of the primary when what they really want is what Trump is selling.  Jeb Bush didn't even make it past Super Tuesday.
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No point in voting out the establishment if the non-establishment candidate can't win in November. :shrug:

 
Henry Ford said:
And yet, here are the Republicans poised to do the same thing - vote out the old guard. 

Say what you want about the Republicans, at least they have the balls to go ahead and vote the establishment out of the primary when what they really want is what Trump is selling.  Jeb Bush didn't even make it past Super Tuesday.
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The GOP letting the inmates run the asylum and nominate a fascist isn't the best argument for voting against the establishment. 

 
squistion said:
Sorry but retaining Obamacare and SCOTUS nominees are important to me. Don't want to throw the baby with the bathwater.
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They're important to me, too.  Which is why I'll be voting Clinton if she gets the nomination.  I thought you were talking about Trump with the "can't win in November" statement.  

Bernie Sanders would wipe the floor with every single Republican contender.  Clinton is going to be close.

 
Henry Ford said:
Tim, you're actively campaigning against someone whose ideas you prefer because you think Congress won't be willing to do those things.

The solution for this country is not to vote in the person who wants to do what Congress wants.  It's to vote out the current Congress.
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No this is not correct. Overall I prefer Hillary's ideas to Bernie's. 

I would love to vote out the current Congress though. Who wouldn't? 

 
timschochet said:
Why would I want to hide Hillary's support for the Wall Street bailout? It's embarrassing for Sanders that he opposed it. If TARP had failed, we would have suffered a second Great Depression, worse than the first one. Obama, Bush, Nancy Pelosi and senators like Hillary saved us from that, no thanks to Bernie. 
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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:  

 
Help me out, here.  What exactly has Clinton ever won that makes people so sure that she will beat any of the Republican nominees?  Two elections in New York against complete cakewalk competition? She's underperforming against her poll numbers, slipping worse the longer this campaign goes, getting creamed in debates, and has lower polling numbers agianst every single Republican contender than Sanders has.

What is with this mindset that somehow she's more likely to win the general election?

 
Henry Ford said:
They're important to me, too.  Which is why I'll be voting Clinton if she gets the nomination.  I thought you were talking about Trump with the "can't win in November" statement.  

Bernie Sanders would wipe the floor with every single Republican contender.  Clinton is going to be close.
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Nope. Reince Preibus was talking about possibly facing a Socialist in the general election last night before the debate. Expect to hear that 24/7 from the GOP not to mention the barrage of attack ads. Trump has referred to Bernie several times as a Socialist/Communist. I like Bernie, but even against Trump I think he is unelectable.

 
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Henry Ford said:
Tim, you're actively campaigning against someone whose ideas you prefer because you think Congress won't be willing to do those things.

The solution for this country is not to vote in the person who wants to do what Congress wants.  It's to vote out the current Congress.
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That not true.  Tim is a moderate republican.  Not a democrat or a liberal.

 
squistion said:
Nope. Reince Preibus was talking about possibly facing a Socialist in the general election. Expect to hear that 24/7 from the GOP not to mention the barrage of attack ads. Trump has referred to Bernie several times as a Socialist/Communist. I like Bernie, but even against Trump I think he is unelectable.
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You're just flat-out wrong on this.  You're following this weird campaign-long groupthink mindset that somehow the word "socialist" is still verboten.  It isn't.  Voters understand what he's talking about, just like voters understood when Obama unabashedly called himself a progressive and a liberal despite the fact that Republicans have spent decades demonizing the word liberal.

And no offense to Reince Preibus, but I have to tell you - I think his viewpoint on what is and is not resonating with voters this cycle is just a bit out of touch, given his viewpoints on the Trump candidacy over the last year or so.

 
Henry Ford said:
You're just flat-out wrong on this.  You're following this weird campaign-long groupthink mindset that somehow the word "socialist" is still verboten.  It isn't.  Voters understand what he's talking about, just like voters understood when Obama unabashedly called himself a progressive and a liberal despite the fact that Republicans have spent decades demonizing the word liberal.

And no offense to Reince Preibus, but I have to tell you - I think his viewpoint on what is and is not resonating with voters this cycle is just a bit out of touch, given his viewpoints on the Trump candidacy over the last year or so.
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Henry Ford, we're never going to agree on this, and we're never going to know who's right, either. 

 
Henry Ford said:
You're just flat-out wrong on this.  You're following this weird campaign-long groupthink mindset that somehow the word "socialist" is still verboten.  It isn't.  Voters understand what he's talking about, just like voters understood when Obama unabashedly called himself a progressive and a liberal despite the fact that Republicans have spent decades demonizing the word liberal.

And no offense to Reince Preibus, but I have to tell you - I think his viewpoint on what is and is not resonating with voters this cycle is just a bit out of touch, given his viewpoints on the Trump candidacy over the last year or so.
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Actually I am following the last Gallup poll that found being a Socialist the biggest disqualifier among voters.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

 
timschochet said:
Henry Ford, we're never going to agree on this, and we're never going to know who's right, either. 
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Why do you think that Hillary Clinton has been less successful in head-to-head polls against every single Republican than Sanders is?  Consistently? Do you think people are going to be happier with Clinton later on?  Will learn something they don't know about her, and suddenly become Clinton supporters when they were going to vote for Trump/Cruz/Rubio?

 
timschochet said:
I used to be. Not anymore, though I haven't changed too much. Moderate Republicans are voting for Donald Trump these days. I don't have too much in common with them. 
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I hate to break this to you, but you were never a libertarian and you were never a moderate Republican (whatever that is).  You were always a big government progressive liberal.  I am glad you are finally realizing this. 

 
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