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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You seriously need to knock off the notebook thing. It is creepy. The fact that you don't see that is doubly creepy.
If anybody wants to call me an ####### for saying that, no problem. I promise you I'm not the only person thinking this.
If anybody wants to call me an ####### for saying that, no problem. I promise you I'm not the only person thinking this.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Good thing your first sentence was 140 characters exactly. Anything more and Squistion:iCreeper would not have understood it.
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squistion
Footballguy
I don't keep an effing notebook. I just have a better memory than most here, including a philosophy professor.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Eligoesdeep
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
.....
HellToupee
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
You're still not getting it.
First, there's no proof whatsoever that Hillary had anything to do with this. So when Trump says she did, it's a lie.
Second, even if you believe Hillary is as unscrupulous as you seem to think, she would never have succeeded using this sort of stuff because IT DOESN'T WORK WITH DEMOCRATS. The Democratic base would have immediately rejected such a slur as the racist attack that it is. The Republican base on the other hand, accepts it and continues to accept it. That's the real embarrassing fact here that you and all the other excuse makers can't escape.
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HellToupee
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Well Colin and I both agree there, in that we don't want to vote for Hillary but will because the alternative is despicable.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
To be fair, most Democrats would be happy to write Sid Blumenthal out of their party. Obama did, at least to the degree that he was able to. It's fair to pin him on Hillary (obviously), but not on Democrats more broadly.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Clinton distanced herself from the Birther movement immediately. She may have started it, but she instantly disavowed it, publicly proclaiming Obama to be a natural-born-citizen.
Yet Donald Trump latched on to the Democrats' troll job and clung to it unflinchingly for the past 7.5 years -- even as Republicans and Democrats alike kept telling him that it was all a hoax.
How can Trump supporters possibly think this makes Donald look good?
"Look at me! I fell for birther schtick on the internet, even after Hillary told me it was fake!"
HellToupee
Footballguy
Blumenthal might as well be Clinton. Obama is sharp enough to know he is a loathsome human being
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Man, Hillary has a rough week and the Trumpsters come out of the woodwork like crazy, eh?
timschochet
Footballguy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/23/republicans-are-blaming-hillary-clinton-for-the-birther-movement-thats-wishful-thinking/
And more and more conservatives have settled on the Trump line — that the questions about Obama's citizenship were so slimy that they obviously came from the Clinton camp. "The whole birther thing was started by the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008 against Barack Obama," Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) confidently told Yahoo News this summer.
The problem: This is simply not true. Clinton's campaign, one of the most thoroughly dissected in modern history, never raised questions about the future president's citizenship. The idea that it did is based largely on a series of disconnected actions by supporters of Clinton, mostly in the months between Obama's reaction to the Jeremiah Wright story and the Democratic National Convention. I know, because I spent/wasted quite a lot of time covering this stuff.
It's probably best to start by dividing up the Trump/Cruz/conservative claims. Clinton never personally called for the release of Obama's birth certificate or questioned his American bona fides. You would have heard about that. But her campaign did ask an obvious question: How to convince Democratic voters that "Barack Hussein Obama" was not electable? In March 2007, in a memo later obtained by reporter Joshua Green, Clinton pollster Mark Penn dismissed Obama with the suggestion that he was simply too alien to win a national election
.
"All of these articles about his boyhood in Indonesia and his life in Hawaii are geared toward showing his background is diverse, multicultural, and putting that in a new light," wrote Penn. "Save it for 2050. It also exposes a very strong weakness for him — his roots to basic American values and culture are at best limited."
But Penn wrote that as a warning, not a strategy. Indeed, when staffers stumbled into criticisms of Obama's "otherness," they were admonished. In December 2007, a Clinton campaign worker named Judy Rose sent an e-mail asking whether Obama was a secret Muslim who intended to destroy America from the inside. She was fired and denounced. Three months later, when the Drudge Report claimed that a photo of Obama wearing a turban was sent from "stressed Clinton staffers," the Clinton campaign denounced it but didn't find a scalp. According to John Heilemann and Mark Halperin in "Game Change," the most ludicrous "othering" theory that Clinton allies engaged in was that a tape existed, somewhere, of Michelle Obama denouncing "whitey" — and that Clinton herself believed it when consigliere Sid Blumenthal talked about it.
But the Clinton campaign never pursued the idea that Obama was literally not American, and therefore ineligible for the presidency. A small group of hardcore Clinton supporters did. Specifically, anyone reading the fringe Web in the summer of 2008 could find the now-defunct blog called TexasDarlin, the now-defunct blog PUMAParty, and the now-conservative blog HillBuzz posting updates on the hunt for a birth certificate. It was a thin reed, and they knew it.
"It looks like Obama was born in Hawaii, based on a recently discovered birth announcement found in a Hawaiian newspaper," one HillBuzz blogger wrote in July 2008. "It also looks like the reason Obama refuses to produce his actual birth certificate is that it very likely records dual Kenyan and U.S. citizenship at Obama’s birth."
Without getting too thick into the weeds — and generously assuming that we are not there yet — the next phase of "birtherism" was focused on the "dual citizenship" issue. Phil Berg, a troubled (and now disbarred) Philadelphia attorney who had supported Clinton for president, sued to kick Obama off the Pennsylvania ballot on the strength of a strange audiotape in which a Kenyan man told a cold-caller that the president was from his country; he also speculated that an Indonesian document that listed the future president as "Indonesian" might have been legally binding. (It was not.)
Berg, obviously, did not do this at the behest of Clinton, who by then was campaigning for Obama. And after the 2008 election, very quickly, the faces of the birther legal movement became right-wing activists like Orly Taitz. The first people who grew obsessed with Obama's birth certificate were, indeed, Clinton superfans who wanted Obama off the ballot. But Clinton's campaign, for all of its Obama panic, did not indulge them. And birtherism took off on the right in a way it never had on the left, to the extent that multiple Republican members of Congress eventually signed on to legislation that would have demanded more proof of citizenship from future presidential candidates. (As Charles Johnson points out, there had been scattered "but is Obama eligible?" talk on the right before any of that.)
And more and more conservatives have settled on the Trump line — that the questions about Obama's citizenship were so slimy that they obviously came from the Clinton camp. "The whole birther thing was started by the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008 against Barack Obama," Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) confidently told Yahoo News this summer.
The problem: This is simply not true. Clinton's campaign, one of the most thoroughly dissected in modern history, never raised questions about the future president's citizenship. The idea that it did is based largely on a series of disconnected actions by supporters of Clinton, mostly in the months between Obama's reaction to the Jeremiah Wright story and the Democratic National Convention. I know, because I spent/wasted quite a lot of time covering this stuff.
It's probably best to start by dividing up the Trump/Cruz/conservative claims. Clinton never personally called for the release of Obama's birth certificate or questioned his American bona fides. You would have heard about that. But her campaign did ask an obvious question: How to convince Democratic voters that "Barack Hussein Obama" was not electable? In March 2007, in a memo later obtained by reporter Joshua Green, Clinton pollster Mark Penn dismissed Obama with the suggestion that he was simply too alien to win a national election
.
"All of these articles about his boyhood in Indonesia and his life in Hawaii are geared toward showing his background is diverse, multicultural, and putting that in a new light," wrote Penn. "Save it for 2050. It also exposes a very strong weakness for him — his roots to basic American values and culture are at best limited."
But Penn wrote that as a warning, not a strategy. Indeed, when staffers stumbled into criticisms of Obama's "otherness," they were admonished. In December 2007, a Clinton campaign worker named Judy Rose sent an e-mail asking whether Obama was a secret Muslim who intended to destroy America from the inside. She was fired and denounced. Three months later, when the Drudge Report claimed that a photo of Obama wearing a turban was sent from "stressed Clinton staffers," the Clinton campaign denounced it but didn't find a scalp. According to John Heilemann and Mark Halperin in "Game Change," the most ludicrous "othering" theory that Clinton allies engaged in was that a tape existed, somewhere, of Michelle Obama denouncing "whitey" — and that Clinton herself believed it when consigliere Sid Blumenthal talked about it.
But the Clinton campaign never pursued the idea that Obama was literally not American, and therefore ineligible for the presidency. A small group of hardcore Clinton supporters did. Specifically, anyone reading the fringe Web in the summer of 2008 could find the now-defunct blog called TexasDarlin, the now-defunct blog PUMAParty, and the now-conservative blog HillBuzz posting updates on the hunt for a birth certificate. It was a thin reed, and they knew it.
"It looks like Obama was born in Hawaii, based on a recently discovered birth announcement found in a Hawaiian newspaper," one HillBuzz blogger wrote in July 2008. "It also looks like the reason Obama refuses to produce his actual birth certificate is that it very likely records dual Kenyan and U.S. citizenship at Obama’s birth."
Without getting too thick into the weeds — and generously assuming that we are not there yet — the next phase of "birtherism" was focused on the "dual citizenship" issue. Phil Berg, a troubled (and now disbarred) Philadelphia attorney who had supported Clinton for president, sued to kick Obama off the Pennsylvania ballot on the strength of a strange audiotape in which a Kenyan man told a cold-caller that the president was from his country; he also speculated that an Indonesian document that listed the future president as "Indonesian" might have been legally binding. (It was not.)
Berg, obviously, did not do this at the behest of Clinton, who by then was campaigning for Obama. And after the 2008 election, very quickly, the faces of the birther legal movement became right-wing activists like Orly Taitz. The first people who grew obsessed with Obama's birth certificate were, indeed, Clinton superfans who wanted Obama off the ballot. But Clinton's campaign, for all of its Obama panic, did not indulge them. And birtherism took off on the right in a way it never had on the left, to the extent that multiple Republican members of Congress eventually signed on to legislation that would have demanded more proof of citizenship from future presidential candidates. (As Charles Johnson points out, there had been scattered "but is Obama eligible?" talk on the right before any of that.)
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
People pin it on Hillary because it is common knowledge Sid Blumenthal is her henchman.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Hillary always pay someone else to do her dirty work. It's her style.So Clinton surrogates made the allegation, but not Clinton herself.
Glad we cleared that up.
Its weird though, I don't recall Clinton denouncing her supporters...
timschochet
Footballguy
No this is crap! There is NO evidence that either Clinton OR her surrogates had anything to do with this. And Hillary DID denounce it and apologized to Obama back in 2008.So Clinton surrogates made the allegation, but not Clinton herself.
Glad we cleared that up.
Its weird though, I don't recall Clinton denouncing her supporters...
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Sinn Fein has never really cared about facts when they don't agree with his anti-Hillary narrative.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
No because she and Solis Doyle apologized for what a few low level staffers did without their knowledge or consent- and they were fired. And they apologized for what PUMA did without Hillary's knowledge or consent.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes it was. But again, in order for a seed to take root, it needs fertile soil. And the Democratic party was not fertile soil for racism. Unfortunately, the Republican party was and is.
In a heated 2007 confrontation on a tarmac at Reagan National Airport in Washington, ex-Obama aide Reggie Love witnessed an irate Senator Barack Obama personally accuse Hillary Clinton of spreading a rumor that he was a Muslim.
Love’s account was reported in the Washington Post in a January review of his book: Power Forward: My Presidential Education. The Post quotes Love as writing the story this way:
It was December 2007, and the Democratic race for the presidential nomination had taken a bit of a nasty turn. Billy Shaheen, then co-chair of Hillary Clinton’s New Hampshire campaign, hadspeculated to The Washington Post that Republicans would attack Sen. Barack Obama on the drug use the candidate had admitted to on the trail and in “Dreams From My Father,” his 1995 memoir. As Shaheen put it: “It’ll be, ‘When was the last time? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?’ There are so many openings for Republican dirty tricks.”
The next day, Obama and Clinton were both at Reagan National Airport on their way to Iowa for a debate, and the candidates met on the tarmac for what became a brief but heated conversation. Then-Obama personal aide Reggie Love witnessed the event and describes it in his new memoir:
“I want to apologize for the whole Shaheen thing,” Clinton said. “I want you to know I had nothing to do with it.”
The candidate very respectfully told her the apology was kind, but largely meaningless, given the emails it was rumored her camp had been sending out labeling him as a Muslim. Before he could finish his sentence, she exploded on Obama. In a matter of seconds, she went from composed to furious. It had not been Obama’s intention to upset her, but he wasn’t going to play the fool either. To all of us watching the spat unfold, it was an obvious turning point in our campaign, and we knew it. Clinton was no less competitive or committed to a cause than Obama, and the electric tension running through both candidates and their respective staffs reflected the understanding that she was no longer the de facto Democratic candidate. Her inevitability had been questioned.…
I remember Obama telling me later that day that he knew he was going to win the nomination after that moment on the tarmac, because Clinton had unraveled, and he was still standing and keeping his cool. It was just the confidence boost he needed.
— from “Power Forward,” by Reggie Love
Love’s account was reported in the Washington Post in a January review of his book: Power Forward: My Presidential Education. The Post quotes Love as writing the story this way:
It was December 2007, and the Democratic race for the presidential nomination had taken a bit of a nasty turn. Billy Shaheen, then co-chair of Hillary Clinton’s New Hampshire campaign, hadspeculated to The Washington Post that Republicans would attack Sen. Barack Obama on the drug use the candidate had admitted to on the trail and in “Dreams From My Father,” his 1995 memoir. As Shaheen put it: “It’ll be, ‘When was the last time? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?’ There are so many openings for Republican dirty tricks.”
The next day, Obama and Clinton were both at Reagan National Airport on their way to Iowa for a debate, and the candidates met on the tarmac for what became a brief but heated conversation. Then-Obama personal aide Reggie Love witnessed the event and describes it in his new memoir:
“I want to apologize for the whole Shaheen thing,” Clinton said. “I want you to know I had nothing to do with it.”
The candidate very respectfully told her the apology was kind, but largely meaningless, given the emails it was rumored her camp had been sending out labeling him as a Muslim. Before he could finish his sentence, she exploded on Obama. In a matter of seconds, she went from composed to furious. It had not been Obama’s intention to upset her, but he wasn’t going to play the fool either. To all of us watching the spat unfold, it was an obvious turning point in our campaign, and we knew it. Clinton was no less competitive or committed to a cause than Obama, and the electric tension running through both candidates and their respective staffs reflected the understanding that she was no longer the de facto Democratic candidate. Her inevitability had been questioned.…
I remember Obama telling me later that day that he knew he was going to win the nomination after that moment on the tarmac, because Clinton had unraveled, and he was still standing and keeping his cool. It was just the confidence boost he needed.
— from “Power Forward,” by Reggie Love
And far from apologizing, the Clinton campaign kept up the smear. Two months after the Reagan Airport showdown between the two, Politico (hardly a conservative publication) reported this story on February 25, 2008:
Obama slams smear photo
Among other things, the story by reporter Mike Allen says this:
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused the Clinton campaign Monday of “shameful offensive fear-mongering” by circulating a photo as an attempted smear.
Plouffe was reacting to a banner headline on the Drudge Report saying that aides to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) had e-mailed a photo calling attention to the African roots of Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.).
… Plouffe said in a statement: “On the very day that Senator Clinton is giving a speech about restoring respect for America in the world, her campaign has engaged in the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election. This is part of a disturbing pattern that led her county chairs to resign in Iowa, her campaign chairman to resign in New Hampshire, and it’s exactly the kind of divisive politics that turns away Americans of all parties and diminishes respect for America in the world,” said Plouffe.”
And what did Mike Allen report about the response from Hillary’s campaign? This:
The Clinton campaign issued an official response to the growing tempest —but the statement from campaign manager Maggie Williams did not respond to the central question of whether staffers circulated the photo.
“Enough,” Williams said in the statement. “If Barack Obama’s campaign wants to suggest that a photo of him wearing traditional Somali clothing is divisive, they should be ashamed. Hillary Clinton has worn the traditional clothing of countries she has visited and had those photos published widely.
“This is nothing more than an obvious and transparent attempt to distract from the serious issues confronting our country today and to attempt to create the very divisions they claim to decry. We will not be distracted.”
Just yesterday morning, reporter and MSNBC political analyst John Heilemann, co-author of Game Change, the story of the 2008 campaign, appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe. When host Scarborough stated that in fact it was Hillary Clinton who introduced the “Obama is a Muslim” meme into the national dialogues, and his co-host Mika Brzezinski agreed with him, they looked to Heilemann to verify this. Replied Heilemann:
“It was the case…. I’m offering my, I’m affirming, I’m affirming, I’m affirming the Scarborough/Brzezinski (point).”
Obama slams smear photo
Among other things, the story by reporter Mike Allen says this:
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused the Clinton campaign Monday of “shameful offensive fear-mongering” by circulating a photo as an attempted smear.
Plouffe was reacting to a banner headline on the Drudge Report saying that aides to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) had e-mailed a photo calling attention to the African roots of Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.).
… Plouffe said in a statement: “On the very day that Senator Clinton is giving a speech about restoring respect for America in the world, her campaign has engaged in the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election. This is part of a disturbing pattern that led her county chairs to resign in Iowa, her campaign chairman to resign in New Hampshire, and it’s exactly the kind of divisive politics that turns away Americans of all parties and diminishes respect for America in the world,” said Plouffe.”
And what did Mike Allen report about the response from Hillary’s campaign? This:
The Clinton campaign issued an official response to the growing tempest —but the statement from campaign manager Maggie Williams did not respond to the central question of whether staffers circulated the photo.
“Enough,” Williams said in the statement. “If Barack Obama’s campaign wants to suggest that a photo of him wearing traditional Somali clothing is divisive, they should be ashamed. Hillary Clinton has worn the traditional clothing of countries she has visited and had those photos published widely.
“This is nothing more than an obvious and transparent attempt to distract from the serious issues confronting our country today and to attempt to create the very divisions they claim to decry. We will not be distracted.”
Just yesterday morning, reporter and MSNBC political analyst John Heilemann, co-author of Game Change, the story of the 2008 campaign, appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe. When host Scarborough stated that in fact it was Hillary Clinton who introduced the “Obama is a Muslim” meme into the national dialogues, and his co-host Mika Brzezinski agreed with him, they looked to Heilemann to verify this. Replied Heilemann:
“It was the case…. I’m offering my, I’m affirming, I’m affirming, I’m affirming the Scarborough/Brzezinski (point).”
timschochet
Footballguy
During that campaign both candidates accused the other of underhanded activities and both were guilty of it. But by quoting articles from the time, Sinn Fein, you take it out of context. When the election was over both sides did apologize to the other. I've read 3 books about this campaign, and Game Change is still the best of them. I think if you read that it may change your mind about this subject.
More importantly, these accusations are being used to attempt to distract and relieve the blatant racism of Donald Trump and the Republican base in regards to the Birther issue. Even if I am completely wrong about Hillary's complicity and responsibility, that doesn't make Trump and the Republican base any less shameful for their actions and attitudes.
More importantly, these accusations are being used to attempt to distract and relieve the blatant racism of Donald Trump and the Republican base in regards to the Birther issue. Even if I am completely wrong about Hillary's complicity and responsibility, that doesn't make Trump and the Republican base any less shameful for their actions and attitudes.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You seem to be missing the point - Hillary released the rumor into the wild - she can't now disavow ownership because it went off in ways that she clearly intended...yes the GOP took it and ran - but the sinister intent was there from the beginning.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You can go on NoQuarterUSA right now and find Obama birther material. How does that guy who was 100% owning and running it in 2007-08 with the same material come to be working for Sidney Blumenthal, who was working for Hillary, in 2009?
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Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
And Sid Blumenthal will continue to work for Hillary if she wins the election. No doubt about it.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Eligoesdeep
Footballguy
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Latest polls indicate voters are not overly concerned about either candidates' health. Hillary's fumble is not going to affect votes coming her way.
HellToupee
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
You look worse for refusing to answer what you meant by this statement, so we can move on (and a joke YouTube clip is not an answer):
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MaxThreshold
Footballguy
This getting pathetic, iCreeper. Move on, already. The question was already answered.
Eligoesdeep
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
No, it wasn't answered. It has never been answered outside of a joke response. That is why I keep asking so we can move on to something else.
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
58% of Trump supporters believe, today, that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Please explain this, if you don't think racism is at the core of it.
Eligoesdeep
Footballguy
Anyone else read all of squistion's post in a robot voice? Makes them more enjoyable
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MaxThreshold
Footballguy
80% of Democrats believe Hillary never lies and isn't corrupt. Please explain this.
Update: And please don't lie when explaining.
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