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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (3 Viewers)

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OK with the 538 numbers going up and this new poll in Pennsylvania, my optimism has returned. 

Here is my new prediction: Hillary's numbers will slowly creep forward this week, in part due to Trump's Birther nonsense, in part due to the realization among voters that this is serious: Trump might actually be our next President. 

Then after next Monday night, when Donald Trump makes a fool out of himself for the whole nation to see, Hillary's numbers will skyrocket and she won't look back. 

Wishful thinking on my part? Of course it is! But why not? The Steelers are 2-0 as well. 
She needs to make back gains in FL and OH. In fact, it may be too late for FL. He's probably flipped it.

OH, PA, VA & NH is still her best path. Trump needs to flip a bunch of 2012 blue states, he's probably got FL but he still needs to do a lot of work. She can still win by not losing. 

 
The Commish said:
This is shifting from the point.  The point was one can't get worked up over what he's saying if they also believe everything he says is a lie.  Of course he's think skinned and irresponsible.  I didn't introduce that to the conversation.
You're making a straw man argument. Nobody has said that every single word out of his mouth is a lie, so it's silly to argue as if they have They've said that he lies a lot. You can still get "worked up" because you don't know what is the truth and what is a lie. You've made this argument a lot, and frankly it's just silly and illogical.

 
Lol. Actually I try to take a long term view of EVERYTHING. 

But in an election cycle it's hard not to get swept up in the moment. Like a lot of other people I've been watching Pennsylvania from the start- it's the bellwether state. If Hillary wins she probably wins the whole thing. So these new results are great news. 

And Rich, IMO the threat of a Trump presidency makes this the most important election since 1860. So you'll have to forgive my waves of excitement and depression. 
Actually, I tend to think that the difference in your world view and mine can, in large part, be explained by your tendency to look at short-term outcomes versus my tendency to look at the long-term.  You're OK with the NSA doing something now, while I see the problems it will cause down the road.  You're OK with illegal immigration because it keeps prices low now.  You're opposed to spending cuts because they hurt our economy now.  You're OK with fracking because it lowers oil prices and burns cleaner now; I see ecological problems down the road.

 
She needs to make back gains in FL and OH. In fact, it may be too late for FL. He's probably flipped it.

OH, PA, VA & NH is still her best path. Trump needs to flip a bunch of 2012 blue states, he's probably got FL but he still needs to do a lot of work. She can still win by not losing. 
I certainly don't think it's too late for Florida. The latest poll (Siena College) shows Hillary with a 1 point lead. She's much better organized in that state as well.

 
OK with the 538 numbers going up and this new poll in Pennsylvania, my optimism has returned. 

Here is my new prediction: Hillary's numbers will slowly creep forward this week, in part due to Trump's Birther nonsense, in part due to the realization among voters that this is serious: Trump might actually be our next President. 

Then after next Monday night, when Donald Trump makes a fool out of himself for the whole nation to see, Hillary's numbers will skyrocket and she won't look back. 

Wishful thinking on my part? Of course it is! But why not? The Steelers are 2-0 as well. 
Tim:. This election is over.  It's been over for awhile now. Obviously the campaigns can't say it, but you should stop with the daily/weekly highs and lows and just sit back and enjoy watching the crackpots.  

 
I certainly don't think it's too late for Florida. The latest poll (Siena College) shows Hillary with a 1 point lead. She's much better organized in that state as well.
You wouldn't know from driving around in Pensacola. Trump stickers/signs EVERYWHERE. I realize Pensacola isn't really Florida, but it's no less terrifying. 

 
Tim:. This election is over.  It's been over for awhile now. Obviously the campaigns can't say it, but you should stop with the daily/weekly highs and lows and just sit back and enjoy watching the crackpots.  
I would do just that if 538 gave Hillary an 80% chance of winning or higher- (though even 20% chance of Trump is enough to make me nervous.)

But they don't. They've got Hillary at 61%. And while that's higher than last week, it is certainly not a "this election is over" result. You trusted Nate Silver in 2012; you need to trust him now. His percentages are always pretty accurate.

 
The Clinton Way: Avoiding indictments since 1992.
For what it's worth, condemning someone for "avoiding indictments" is a huge problem, because it encourages people to sling mud and levy unsubstantiated charges.  Which has been the MO of many on the right (and some on the left) for quite some time now. 

You see this mentality in our seeming inability to separate the thoroughly investigated and fact-checked lies and sleaziness of the Trump Foundation with the unfounded "air of impropriety" allegations about the Clinton Foundation, which so far has resulted in the public roughly equating two very unequal things.

 
You wouldn't know from driving around in Pensacola. Trump stickers/signs EVERYWHERE. I realize Pensacola isn't really Florida, but it's no less terrifying. 
Yeah, I'm in southwest FL (actually driving by his rally today after work) and you see a love of trucks and cars with Trump stickers. 

Of course, a lot of these same trucks/cars have Yeti and assault rifle stickers...

 
Yeah, I'm in southwest FL (actually driving by his rally today after work) and you see a love of trucks and cars with Trump stickers. 

Of course, a lot of these same trucks/cars have Yeti and assault rifle stickers...
Haha pretty sure it's a package deal. 

 
I don't think Pennsylvania is the key - its important.  But I think Trump becomes president if he can win one of Pennsylvania, Michigan or Colorado.

Now, they all lean democrat for different reasons - Pennsylvania: minority votes; Michigan: labor; and Colorado: environmentalists.

Pennsylvania will be all about turn-out.  I expect the dem machine to be running shuttles from the Philadelphia urban areas to the polling stations.  If they are successful in that turnout - Clinton will win PA.

Michigan will be an interesting debate on TPP and trade in general.  If Trump can hammer the impact of TPP and free trade on manufacturing jobs in Michigan, he can win Michigan - just like Bernie did on those same issues.  Polling average as Clinton up, but latest poll had Trump +4 (before faintgate).

Colorado is weird to me - this seems like it should be solidly democratic, but perhaps a strong independent/anti-establishment streak gives Trump a shot here.  Again, Clinton is up on the averages, but the latest poll has Trump +4 (also before faintgate).

 
Actually, the latest poll from Michigan (Detroit Free Press) has Hillary up by 3.

Not sure about Colorado.

I'd be stunned if Trump won Michigan- that would be akin to Hillary winning Georgia. In the end, neither is likely to happen.

 
I would do just that if 538 gave Hillary an 80% chance of winning or higher- (though even 20% chance of Trump is enough to make me nervous.)

But they don't. They've got Hillary at 61%. And while that's higher than last week, it is certainly not a "this election is over" result. You trusted Nate Silver in 2012; you need to trust him now. His percentages are always pretty accurate.
Oh, I trust Silver.  His daily %'s are a snapshot and I don't doubt their accuracy on any given day.  

 
You're making a straw man argument. Nobody has said that every single word out of his mouth is a lie, so it's silly to argue as if they have They've said that he lies a lot. You can still get "worked up" because you don't know what is the truth and what is a lie. You've made this argument a lot, and frankly it's just silly and illogical.
Sorry....I can't count how many times it's been stated that Trump lies about everything :shrug:   Again...it's not an argument, just an observation.

 
Sorry....I can't count how many times it's been stated that Trump lies about everything :shrug:   Again...it's not an argument, just an observation.
"Lies about everything" is not the same as "everything he says is a lie."

And it is an argument IMO, one you've made repeatedly.  Your argument, as I understand it, is that if people think he's a liar they can't also be concerned about or fearful of the things he says. You said pretty much exactly that right here. It's nonsense, as I've explained. If you want to call in an observation instead of an argument, though, sure. I guess that just makes it an incorrect observation instead of an illogical argument.

You're assuming the outrage over what he says is always based on concern that he will implement it exactly as he says, but that's not the case, and the things are largely unrelated. He lies a lot, which is a concern.  It's also a concern that he said he'd consider defaulting on our debts or stealing middle eastern oil, even if he was lying about it, because the consequences of making public statements like that (and what it says about him as a person) are significant even if those things never happen.

 
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Sorry....I can't count how many times it's been stated that Trump lies about everything :shrug:   Again...it's not an argument, just an observation.
"Lies about everything" is not the same as "everything he says is a lie."

And it is an argument IMO, one you've made repeatedly.  Your argument, as I understand it, is that if people think he's a liar they can't also be concerned about or fearful of the things he says. You said pretty much exactly that right here. It's nonsense, as I've explained. If you want to call in an observation instead of an argument, though, sure. I guess that just makes it an incorrect observation instead of an illogical argument.

You're assuming the outrage over what he says is always based on concern that he will implement it exactly as he says, but that's not the case, and the things are largely unrelated. He lies a lot, which is a concern.  It's also a concern that he said he'd consider defaulting on our debts or stealing middle eastern oil, even if he was lying about it, because the consequences of making public statements like that (and what it says about him as a person) are significant even if those things never happen.
You are going WAY deep into the weeds here on this IMO.  I'm not interested in the parsing of words.  For the purpose of my comments, the bold rabbit hole isn't necessary.  I made as clear as I possibly could what my point was above.  I don't know how else to say it. :shrug:  

 
Saints, should I trust Johnson that Hillary has Parkinson's? 
You appear to be inferring that once a person has made one false statement, that we can't trust any of their statements.  Is that the case?  Just curious.

Edit: I don't know who this Johnson guy is, nor do I particularly care, BTW.

 
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You are going WAY deep into the weeds here on this IMO.  I'm not interested in the parsing of words.  For the purpose of my comments, the bold rabbit hole isn't necessary.  I made as clear as I possibly could what my point was above.  I don't know how else to say it. :shrug:  
"My point was illogical and invalid" would be a good start.

 
Feeling a bit more at peace since I have a fair number of extreme pro Hillary fans who have posted every pro Hillary propaganda piece for a year.  Recently the worm turned.  The only respondents had been those agreed and showering praise.  That's simply not the case anymore.  By-and-large people are disappointed and express it. 

A bit of consolation if she wins (and I wish she were replaced, but do not want Trump) is she will be met with skepticism and demand for transparency.  She won't oblige, but it will start the backlash Day 1 and she will hopefully be lame duck right away and replaced as the hearings progress about Teneo and the 17,500 emails.  She will hopefully make it less than two years and leave in shame.  Worst case, she's a one termer.  
I think this is pretty much a sure thing.  

 
tommyboy said:
This guy also says Blumenthal pushed the birther story http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/79319/confessions-hillary-insider/


Should I believe that Hillary has Parkinson's like Larry claimed in a blog last week as well?  
No, you shouldn't. Read his bio, he's an intelligence analyst and gatherer, not a doctor.

If you read what Blumenthal said about him directly to Hillary he offers him as a straight up intelligence expert worth listening to.

Here's what we know about the guy:

- He worked for Blumenthal.

- Blumenthal sent information from him to Hillary, which Hillary at least offered to act upon in at least one instance, when she forwarded the email to Philippe Reines.

- He was pro-Hillary in 2007-08 and through 2011 and 2012.

- Obama/Emanuel banned Blumenthal from the WH.

- Hillary allowed Blumenthal to use a faux WH email address anyway as he did work for her.

Here is what Johnson says in his piece:

I was part of that effort and was in regular email and phone coordination with Sidney Blumenthal. Sidney was the conduit who fed damaging material to me that I subsequently posted on my blog.
In another email Blumenthal tells Hillary:

H: I am forwarding you the email exchanges from Tyler Drumheller and Larry Johnson...
http://graphics.wsj.com/hillary-clinton-email-documents/pdfs/C05763251.pdf

Now I think you could at least concede that Sidney Blumenthal was in email contact with Larry Johnson and took him seriously as an expert in 2009.

 
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Sure, once she's awake and had her comments prepared for her..
Trump prepared remarks still sound odd and not well thought out. His off the cuff stuff seems like a middle school kid.

If you have any doubt about Hillary's abilities to react and process info watch her in front of the Benghazi hearings. She crushed that, incredibly high stakes, opportunities abound to get trapped, etc.

 
For what it's worth, condemning someone for "avoiding indictments" is a huge problem, because it encourages people to sling mud and levy unsubstantiated charges.  Which has been the MO of many on the right (and some on the left) for quite some time now. 

You see this mentality in our seeming inability to separate the thoroughly investigated and fact-checked lies and sleaziness of the Trump Foundation with the unfounded "air of impropriety" allegations about the Clinton Foundation, which so far has resulted in the public roughly equating two very unequal things.
Another way to look at it is that when you set the bar at "Is this indictable?" you're setting the bar way, way too low.  Many of us have been saying that from the very beginning of this email thing. 

 
You appear to be inferring that once a person has made one false statement, that we can't trust any of their statements.  Is that the case?  Just curious.

Edit: I don't know who this Johnson guy is, nor do I particularly care, BTW.
No, I am not inferring that.  Only an idiot would equate every false statement. 

When someone links to an unheralded, unknown personal blog, before giving it equal weight to trusted, credible sources it helps to see what else this person is saying.  I look to the side panal and see that Johnson just penned a "Hillary has Parkinson's" post, yet I'm supposed to believe Johnson instead of all of the other new organizations who have investigated this idea and found it false?  

 
There's nothing invalid or illogical to pointing out that inconsistency :shrug:  
There is nothing invalid or illogical in pointing out an inconsistency. But you have not done so. Instead you have noted two unrelated observations ("I think Trump lies a lot" and "I am troubled by many of the things that Trump says") and suggested that there was some inconsistency in believing both to be true.  But that's not true, as I've explained repeatedly now, just in case the fact that literally no one else has tried to make this argument anywhere as far as I can tell.

If it helps you understand why they're consistent, maybe  consider your position but replace "Trump" with "crazy ex-girlfriend" and Trump's frightening statements about policies and military actions with scary statements about what she's going to do to you while you're sleeping. Just because she lies a lot doesn't mean you're comfortable disregarding her rhetoric and invite her to crash at your place.  You can think she's a liar AND have a problem with what she said and what that means about her.

Anyway, if you'd like to try again to demonstrate what it is that you consider inconsistent, feel free.

 
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I don't think Pennsylvania is the key - its important.  But I think Trump becomes president if he can win one of Pennsylvania, Michigan or Colorado.

Now, they all lean democrat for different reasons - Pennsylvania: minority votes; Michigan: labor; and Colorado: environmentalists.

Pennsylvania will be all about turn-out.  I expect the dem machine to be running shuttles from the Philadelphia urban areas to the polling stations.  If they are successful in that turnout - Clinton will win PA.

Michigan will be an interesting debate on TPP and trade in general.  If Trump can hammer the impact of TPP and free trade on manufacturing jobs in Michigan, he can win Michigan - just like Bernie did on those same issues.  Polling average as Clinton up, but latest poll had Trump +4 (before faintgate).

Colorado is weird to me - this seems like it should be solidly democratic, but perhaps a strong independent/anti-establishment streak gives Trump a shot here.  Again, Clinton is up on the averages, but the latest poll has Trump +4 (also before faintgate).
I would fly to Pennsylvania and drive people to the polls if it meant Trump would lose.

 
Does the fact that Johnson is posting that crap revel anything to you, or is his word still credible despite the Times, Post, Politico, etc all saying the opposite? 
What I am pointing to is Blumenthal's email to Hillary that he emailed with Johnson. Do you believe that?

eta - I think you could at least concede that Sidney Blumenthal was in email contact with Larry Johnson and took him seriously as an expert in 2009.

eta2 - Btw let's keep in mind this is about his posting Birther pieces in the first place. I mean why resort to the Parkinson's bit about whether he is credible on anything outside the intelligence world. However he does say he was emailing with Blumenthal and Blumenthal told Hillary in 2009 he was emailing with Johnson. That part does indeed sound believable.

 
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Saints, should I trust Johnson that Hillary has Parkinson's? 
I am a neuropsychologist.  Before going into private practice, I worked in two large, well-known hospitals in their Movement Disorders clinics.  I am quite familiar with the range of Parkinsonian features.  Although I have never evaluated Hillary--and therefore cannot say definitively one way or another--in my professional opinion, there just is no indication that she has Parkinson's disease.  The link in whatever video was posted above with Ted Noel, MD...it's just absurd and littered with misunderstandings (deliberately or otherwise) about how PD would manifest.  This should not be surprising, given that Dr. Noel is an anesthesiologist and not a neurologist or neuropsychologist.   In other words, he probably knows a #### ton about sedatives, epidurals, and nerve blocking agents--and seems to have a penchant for alt-right conspiracy theories--but his knowledge of PD is likely to be only peripheral and maybe just slightly better than the average person on the street.  It also should be a big red flag that he did not disclose his specialty, but instead said he's a "medical doctor with 36 years of experience".  I don't know if he's a quack or not, but I do know he's a conservative advocate, and his analysis of video is non-credible--and downright laughable--when talking about PD (e.g., her head nodding is head nodding, not dyskinesia).

Take it FWIW.

 
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I am a neuropsychologist.  Before going into private practice, I worked in two large, well-known hospitals in their Movement Disorders clinics.  I am quite familiar with the range of Parkinsonian features.  Although I have never evaluated Hillary--and therefore cannot say definitively one way or another--in my professional opinion, there just is no indication that she has Parkinson's disease.  The link in whatever video was posted above with Ted Noel, MD...it's just absurd and littered with misunderstandings (deliberately or otherwise) about how PD would manifest.  This should not be surprising, given that Dr. Noel is an anesthesiologist (should be a big red flag that he did not disclose that, but instead said he's a "medical doctor with 36 years of experience").  I don't know if he's a quack or not, but I do know he's a conservative advocate.  I also know he is not a neurologist or neuropsychologist.  In other words, he probably knows a #### ton about sedatives, epidurals, and nerve blocking agents--and seems to have a penchant for alt-right conspiracy theories--but his knowledge of PD is likely to be only peripheral and maybe just slightly better than the average person on the street.  Even so, his analysis, for example of certain movement characteristics Hillary has exhibited is laughable (e.g., her head nodding is head nodding, not dyskinesia).

Take it FWIW.
Well it's certainly worth a hell of a lot more than a guy who carefully studies a video of Clinton trying to be funny in a muffin shop when lots of reporters shouted questions at her about Warren as a possible VP pick and concludes the footage shows symptoms of Parkinson's disease.  I'm pretty sure about that.

 
There is nothing invalid or illogical in pointing out an inconsistency. But you have not done so. Instead you have noted two unrelated observations ("I think Trump lies a lot" and "I am troubled by many of the things that Trump says") and suggested that there was some inconsistency in believing both to be true.  But that's not true, as I've explained repeatedly now, just in case the fact that literally no one else has tried to make this argument anywhere as far as I can tell.

If it helps you understand why they're consistent, maybe  consider your position but replace "Trump" with "crazy ex-girlfriend" and Trump's frightening statements about policies and military actions with scary statements about what she's going to do to you while you're sleeping. Just because she lies a lot doesn't mean you're comfortable disregarding her rhetoric and invite her to crash at your place.  You can think she's a liar AND have a problem with what she said and what that means about her.

Anyway, if you'd like to try again to demonstrate what it is that you consider inconsistent, feel free.
No....."Everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie"  Was very specific about this from the beginning.  I'm not sure I've had a discussion with someone who'd be kind enough to go with your second comment of being "troubled by many of the things that Trump says".  Most people are all in on him being the anti-Christ and while he's a liar that can't be trusted, they sure trust him when he says he wants to ban all Muslims.

And I don't even disagree with the theory that everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie.  I think it's probably true.

 
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No....."Everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie"  Was very specific about this from the beginning.  I'm not sure I've had a discussion with someone who'd be kind enough to go with your second comment of being "troubled by many of the things that Trump says".  Most people are all in on him being the anti-Christ and while he's a liar that can't be trusted, they sure believe him when he says he wants to ban all Muslims.

And I don't even disagree with the theory that everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie.  I think it's probably true.
1.  Don't make me deal with the possibility that you don't understand the use of hyperbole.

2.  Sure, let's use the Muslim ban thing.  That works as well as anything else to point out what you seem to be missing here.

Whether he actually wants to ban all Muslims is honestly almost irrelevant. The problem isn't whether or not he really wants to do it, or at least that's not the primary problem. The problem is that he said it in the first place. Once you make a naked appeal to bigotry and fear, and say exactly what Muslim extremists would want you to say, show a willingness to ignore our country's founding principles just to further your political campaign, it barely even matters whether you mean it or not. Simply being willing to say something that stupid and ill-advised and anti-American says a lot about your character and how you'd govern.

That's why there's no inconsistency in both considering him a liar and criticizing the things he says- because whether he means them or not is often beside the point.

 
No....."Everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie"  Was very specific about this from the beginning.  I'm not sure I've had a discussion with someone who'd be kind enough to go with your second comment of being "troubled by many of the things that Trump says".  Most people are all in on him being the anti-Christ and while he's a liar that can't be trusted, they sure trust him when he says he wants to ban all Muslims.

And I don't even disagree with the theory that everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie.  I think it's probably true.
A lie implies intent to deceive.  Trump has no intent to deceive, he simply says whatever will get votes.  The truth is of zero consequence to him.  Frankly, he's not informed enough to even discriminate between what is true and what isn't.  It's not a joke - he's truly a narcissistic sociopath.

His comments about David Cameron were very telling:

He didn't get the mood of his country right . He was surprised.
In Trump's mind, it doesn't matter what you do as well as you 'get the mood of your country right'.

 
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A lie implies intent to deceive.  Trump has no intent to deceive, he simply says whatever will get votes.  The truth is of zero consequence to him.  Frankly, he's not informed enough to even discriminate between what is true and what isn't.  It's not a joke - he's truly a narcissistic sociopath.

His comments about David Cameron were very telling:

In Trump's mind, it doesn't matter what you do as well as you 'get the mood of your country right'.
I truly didn't believe he could be any more ridiculous than he already was, but one thing has been made perfectly clear to me in the aftermath of the NYC bombs: This is his reality TV show. Nothing more. Well, nothing more than what's at stake. We're headed down a dark path with Trump and his supporters. 

 
'Merica 2016- leading the world in false equivalencies and bad analogies.

BTW who are you "not throwing away your vote" for?  The anti-vaxx 9/11 conspiracy theorist running under the Green Party banner despite having apparently no grasp of environmental policy? Or the person whose political platform is essentially the exact opposite of the person you supported in the primary race?

 
'Merica 2016- leading the world in false equivalencies and bad analogies.

BTW who are you "not throwing away your vote" for?  The anti-vaxx 9/11 conspiracy theorist running under the Green Party banner despite having apparently no grasp of environmental policy? Or the person whose political platform is essentially the exact opposite of the person you supported in the primary race?
That there are people like Sinn Fein around who equate the two candidates is so frustrating to me...

 
That there are people like Sinn Fein around who equate the two candidates is so frustrating to me...
Yup.  I also don't like that they often seem to not apply the same critical eye to the third party candidates the support.  I think they're voting more in opposition of something (the major parties themselves or the absence of third party options or the quality of the major party candidates or whatever) than voting for something. 

Which is cool in principle ... but since there's an actual sociopathic white nationalist demagogue running for president it seems like maybe we should focus on opposing that before we worry about opposing stuff like a lack of transparency or the influence of Wall Street on policymaking.  I dunno, just seems slightly more important.

 
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1.  Don't make me deal with the possibility that you don't understand the use of hyperbole.

2.  Sure, let's use the Muslim ban thing.  That works as well as anything else to point out what you seem to be missing here.

Whether he actually wants to ban all Muslims is honestly almost irrelevant. The problem isn't whether or not he really wants to do it, or at least that's not the primary problem. The problem is that he said it in the first place. Once you make a naked appeal to bigotry and fear, and say exactly what Muslim extremists would want you to say, show a willingness to ignore our country's founding principles just to further your political campaign, it barely even matters whether you mean it or not. Simply being willing to say something that stupid and ill-advised and anti-American says a lot about your character and how you'd govern.

That's why there's no inconsistency in both considering him a liar and criticizing the things he says- because whether he means them or not is often beside the point.
Sure, sometimes it's hyperbole, a lot of the time it doesn't appear to be and there's no clearing up of the point when asked.  It happens frequently, and at least for me, and those are the situations I am talking about.  Perhaps you've not heard this position.  I've heard it a lot.  

I don't disagree with anything you say in the paragraph other than the qualification of a "naked appeal".  For me, any sort of appeal to bigotry and/or fear or something else is bad.  I don't care if it's cloaked in political speak or presented bluntly.  I draw the line at going there in any fashion.  There's no place for it.

 
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