***Official Jays Thread*** They spent $234 Million on this? (1 Viewer)

[Northern Voice]

@gregorMLBhttps://twitter.com/#!/gregorMLBMassive changes in #BlueJays lineup: Lawrie 3B, Rasmus CF, Bautista RF, Johnson DH, Escobar SS, Cooper 1B, Arencibia C, Vizquel 2B, Davis LF

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Well it sure as #### worked tonight.

I like it. Until Lawrie starts hitting with a little more pop I think leadoff suits him. Should see some more fastballs up there. Rasmus has been hitting the ball hard lately and finally got something to show for it tonight.

Never really liked Johnson or Escobar leading off.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

So David Cooper... AAAA player or MLB player? Beautiful swing, showing power to the opposite field but can only play a position (1B or DH) that requires a big bat. Can he hit for enough of an average to make up for his lack of power? He reminds me a lot of Olerud with his swing.

ETA: Link

It's incredible to think it's been nearly three weeks since the Blue Jays sent Adam Lind down to Triple A Las Vegas. I say incredible because it seems like the team has not missed him one bit. It's been business with usual, even with Adam Lind off the 40-man roster.

Part of that can be attributed to the lack of offense on Adam Lind's part, but part can also be linked to the recent resurgence of David Cooper.

As the Tao of Stieb would say, Cooper's about as exciting as a mayonnaise sandwich, but David Cooper certainly cuts the mustard as the Blue Jays first baseman ... for the time being.

I figured by now the ghost of Adam Lind would be haunting the Blue Jays roster, but honestly I've barely even noticed that Lind has been out of the lineup for the past 17 games.

Most are quick to dismiss Cooper's PCL batting title from last season because ... well, it's the Pacific Coast League. The offensive statistics are inflated, but hitting at a .364 clip over the course of 120 games in a hitter's league is still pretty impressive in my books.

Going into this season, David Cooper's future was very uncertain in the organization. With Adam Lind locked in for several years, it seemed as though Cooper's destiny might be that of trade bait or he might become stuck in limbo as a quadruple A player.

But ever since the wheels came off with Adam Lind, that's opened the door of opportunity for David Cooper. And I have to say, I like what I've seen so far.

Not that Lind was the worst defensive first baseman out there, but I much prefer to see Cooper at first at his natural position. He really does remind me of John Olerud out there, and fields the position very well.

Having David Cooper at first base also takes the pressure off Edwin Encarnacion to step in as the first baseman. Sure, Eddie is okay in a pinch at first base, but I don't think he's a viable option as an everyday first baseman.

Offensively, Cooper doesn't quite have the pop that Adam Lind did, but I'm okay with that. David Cooper had 50 career home runs in the minor leagues, so power is not one of Cooper's strong suits. But racking up hits and getting on base have been his hallmarks in the minors.

For some reason, there's this stigma that in order to compete in the American League East, the Blue Jays need to have a slugging first baseman. Honestly, I think so long as the power is made up elsewhere in the lineup (say right field for example), then the Blue Jays don't need a slugger at first.

Just take a look around the rest of the division; the only first baseman in the AL East who has more than 10 home runs right now is Edwin Encarnacion.

Also, ask the Detroit Tigers how they're feeling about the early returns from their $214 million dollar contract to Prince Fielder, and ask the Los Angeles Angels where they stand on their $240 million dollar contract to Albert Pujols.

That's not to say these players won't pick it up in the second half, but that's what the prototypical slugging first baseman are doing for their prospective teams. So having one of these players on the roster doesn't necessarily equate to success.

That's where it all comes back to John Olerud once again. He wasn't the typical big-bodied first baseman that hit 30+ home runs and drove in 100+ RBI's year after year. Johnny O was still an offensive threat, but a different kind of offensive threat.

If the closest comparison to David Cooper is John Olerud, then that's pretty promising. Of course, this is all very easy to say as Cooper has only 37 at bats this season, but the early results are very encouraging.

A few years ago, before he decided to sign with the Pittsburgh Pirates, I advocated that the Blue Jays should resign Lyle Overbay. Part of it was because it would be fiscally smart thing to do, but mostly because it would be better to sign the devil the Blue Jays knew rather than the devil they didn't.

And I think the same thing applies to the first base situation right now for Toronto. Over his tenure with the Blue Jays, we pretty much knew what to expect from Lyle Overbay. And I believe the same could be true for David Cooper.

When it comes to planning for the future at first base for the Blue Jays, better the devil you know than the devil you don't for over $200 million dollars and 7-10 years.

 

[Northern Voice]

Overbay was the comparison I was going to make as well. Olerud's worst year with the Jays he had a .353 OBP, I don't know if Cooper comes close to that, let alone Olerud's best years. Plus, both Olerud and Overbay were great defensively.

I think Cooper is a decent stopgap and certainly more productive than Lind but I don't think he's the long term guy.

 

[Northern Voice]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

guy's awesome.

 

[Northern Voice]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

He's a combination DF/coach/mascot, he's not really needed. guy's awesome.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

Then they'll really be angry when they find out they have a DH that can't hit.

 

[Northern Voice]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

Then they'll really be angry when they find out they have a DH that can't hit.

After the pass ball last night basically costs the Jays the game, Arencibia throws one into LF in extra innings to end the game tonight. Let's get this guy the #### out of here.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

I really hope J.P. Arencibia is gone at the trade deadline. He's an awful catcher and his bat doesn't play anywhere else. Can't block pitches in the dirt, can't get off his knees to try to throw at a runner, some say Travis d'Arnaud is now the best position prospect on any team in the minors, get him up here and trade JPA before the rest of the league figures out he's a DH.

Vizquel and McCoy can GTFO too.

guy's awesome.

He's a combination DF/coach/mascot, he's not really needed.

Exactly. He's on a minor league contract so it's not like he's costing us anything, and it's not like he's really blocking anybody of playing time.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Morrow throws 9 pitches and is done for the night

 

[Northern Voice]

I hesitate to post this, as it will likely bring out his (non Jay fan) haters again, but guess who leads MLB in Inside Edge's WHAV (Well hit ball average)? It is non other than Colby Rasmus. If nothing else, it verifies what is incredibly obvious to anyone who's watched him this season, he's really been hitting the ball hard.

Also, "this is a sinking ship" - Shea Hillenbrand (may apply to this season).

1 game below .500, team will bounce back with some weak opponents coming up, but contending this year looking less likely.

 

[Ashem]

Hutchinson throws 9 pitches and is done for the night.

Drabek might have to have Tommy John surgery for the second time in his career.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

/season

Time to trade JP and get Gose, Snider and D'Arnaud up.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Whats up with Romero? Velocity down? Is he throwing all his pitches? Out of shape?

 

[Northern Voice]

Whats up with Romero? Velocity down? Is he throwing all his pitches? Out of shape?

He's a Jays starter this season, and therefore cursed.Honestly, he'll never be as good as he showed last season, but he's not as bad as he has been this year, he doesn't seem to be locating nearly as well, more walks and getting hit a lot harder. I don't think he's out of shape, he seems to be a really hard worker, just walking too many guys and giving up more long balls.Nice sweep of Philly, but with Hutchison and Morrow out for a while, this could get ugly. No official word on how long each are out. Drabek is actually worse this year than Cecil was last year, so no big loss there, other than the realization he'll likely never be what they had hoped, may never be a MLB starter.Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista, Edwin really works as a top of the order though. Lind is raking in AAA, I'll be curious to see how long they keep him down and Gomes up. d'Arnaud has been great all season down there, but they need to find a place for JPA, and Snider is back at AAA after his rehab in Dunedin and should be up in place of McCoy as soon as he's healthy (Francisco needs to come back up or be optioned soon as well but Rajai makes him totally redundant, Thames isn't ripping up Vegas like Snider did, so I think he's behind on the depth chart for now).

 

[Northern Voice]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

 

[Eephus]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Cardinals won the World Series

 

[Northern Voice]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Cardinals won the World Series

They did, but they a) could have gotten scrub relievers for a much lower price than Rasmus and b) could have gotten a lot more for Rasmus. So you can say it was all worthwhile because they won, and to some extent it is, but it's still an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense.

 

[Northern Voice]

What a ridiculous game tonight. Chavez lasts just over two innings, the Jays walk in 4 runs. Rasmus and Bautista go back to back twice, including in the 9th off of Axford, Lawrie, Encarnacion both hit home runs as well, Colby gets the OPS up to .805 for the season. Snider homers in Vegas...

This team needs an innings eater just so they don't kill the guys the bullpen and the stiffs they're going to call up for Morrow/Hutch/Drabek, as much for trading for a Jeremy Guthrie type when they still won't likely battle back in the standings unless Morrow returns quickly might seem like a bad move, I'd have no problem with it.

Much of the problem is that the Jays took two college guys in consecutive years in the 1st round who were so supposed to be "safe" (low upside but quick to majors as a 3/4 type) in Chad Jenkins and Deck Maguire and both are getting shelled in AA... really one or both of these two guys should be up right now, not Chavez, Laughey, Coello, etc...

Luis Perez and Carlos Villanueva would be interesting options if the Jays stretch them out, but will leave spots in the pen for that same AAA fodder.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Rasmus starting to figure #### out.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Rasmus starting to figure #### out.

1.141 OPS hitting in the 2 spot this year (81 AB, yay for small sample sizes!). Having Bautista hitting behind you is a good thing.

 

[Captain Hook]

What a ridiculous game tonight. Chavez lasts just over two innings, the Jays walk in 4 runs. Rasmus and Bautista go back to back twice, including in the 9th off of Axford, Lawrie, Encarnacion both hit home runs as well, Colby gets the OPS up to .805 for the season. Snider homers in Vegas...This team needs an innings eater just so they don't kill the guys the bullpen and the stiffs they're going to call up for Morrow/Hutch/Drabek, as much for trading for a Jeremy Guthrie type when they still won't likely battle back in the standings unless Morrow returns quickly might seem like a bad move, I'd have no problem with it.Much of the problem is that the Jays took two college guys in consecutive years in the 1st round who were so supposed to be "safe" (low upside but quick to majors as a 3/4 type) in Chad Jenkins and Deck Maguire and both are getting shelled in AA... really one or both of these two guys should be up right now, not Chavez, Laughey, Coello, etc...Luis Perez and Carlos Villanueva would be interesting options if the Jays stretch them out, but will leave spots in the pen for that same AAA fodder.

Villanueva starting today

 

[Northern Voice]

What a ridiculous game tonight. Chavez lasts just over two innings, the Jays walk in 4 runs. Rasmus and Bautista go back to back twice, including in the 9th off of Axford, Lawrie, Encarnacion both hit home runs as well, Colby gets the OPS up to .805 for the season. Snider homers in Vegas...This team needs an innings eater just so they don't kill the guys the bullpen and the stiffs they're going to call up for Morrow/Hutch/Drabek, as much for trading for a Jeremy Guthrie type when they still won't likely battle back in the standings unless Morrow returns quickly might seem like a bad move, I'd have no problem with it.Much of the problem is that the Jays took two college guys in consecutive years in the 1st round who were so supposed to be "safe" (low upside but quick to majors as a 3/4 type) in Chad Jenkins and Deck Maguire and both are getting shelled in AA... really one or both of these two guys should be up right now, not Chavez, Laughey, Coello, etc...Luis Perez and Carlos Villanueva would be interesting options if the Jays stretch them out, but will leave spots in the pen for that same AAA fodder.

Villanueva starting today

Joel Carreno actually, but he didn't last long. David Pauley claimed off waivers. I predict we see Snider in the lineup Friday (because Gomes was sent down for Carreno, he can't be called up for 10 days and they need someone for the bench, could be Lind too).

 

[Time Kibitzer]

Jays reportedly have signed Jamie Moyer to a minor league contract.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Jeeze romero is garbage

 

[Captain Hook]

Jeeze romero is garbage

not completely but always in Fenway

 

[RnR]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Cardinals won the World Series

They did, but they a) could have gotten scrub relievers for a much lower price than Rasmus and b) could have gotten a lot more for Rasmus. So you can say it was all worthwhile because they won, and to some extent it is, but it's still an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense.

I know you guys are looking at that trade from the Blue Jays perspective, but the main cog the Cards received in return came from the White Sox in Edwin Jackson. Jackson went 5-2 down the stretch for the Cards and made the playoff rotation. Dotel and Zep were far from "scrub relievers" for the Cards in 2011. Zep had a 1.23 ERA and 0.57 WHIP in 7 1/3 innings of work as the main lefty out of the pen in the NLCS and WS. Dotel was solid the entire time he was with the club. Mr. "Happy Flight" was pretty much the polar opposite of Rasmus in terms of clubhouse presence. To be clear: Rasmus was an organizational issue that needed to be addressed, it went beyond LaRussa. He would rather listen to his daddy than his coaches, and at the big league level that's a problem for most folks. He's either grown up and learned from that experience, or Toronto is okay with his dad calling the shots as his personal hitting instructor. Either way, it seems to be working for Colby at the moment, and that's great. He's always been immensely talented, stubbornness aside.Bottom line for that trade from a St. Louis perspective: The Cardinals acquired three quality arms that were essential in their run to the World Championship. A run to a championship that would have been impossible with Rasmus in the clubhouse, and impossible with the pitching staff assembled as it was prior to the trade. I can't help but laugh when you call it "an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense." Sometimes I think some folks get too caught up in the numbers and worried about what looks and sounds smart rather than looking at the results. Mozeliak's job is to win. He decided to add short term arms and dump a clubhouse issue with his top young player, and directly because of this trade, he won a World Championship. For that reason alone it was a brilliant baseball decision and genius asset management. Any argument to the contrary is not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Captain Hook]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Cardinals won the World Series

They did, but they a) could have gotten scrub relievers for a much lower price than Rasmus and b) could have gotten a lot more for Rasmus. So you can say it was all worthwhile because they won, and to some extent it is, but it's still an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense.

I know you guys are looking at that trade from the Blue Jays perspective, but the main cog the Cards received in return came from the White Sox in Edwin Jackson. Jackson went 5-2 down the stretch for the Cards and made the playoff rotation. Dotel and Zep were far from "scrub relievers" for the Cards in 2011. Zep had a 1.23 ERA and 0.57 WHIP in 7 1/3 innings of work as the main lefty out of the pen in the NLCS and WS. Dotel was solid the entire time he was with the club. Mr. "Happy Flight" was pretty much the polar opposite of Rasmus in terms of clubhouse presence. To be clear: Rasmus was an organizational issue that needed to be addressed, it went beyond LaRussa. He would rather listen to his daddy than his coaches, and at the big league level that's a problem for most folks. He's either grown up and learned from that experience, or Toronto is okay with his dad calling the shots as his personal hitting instructor. Either way, it seems to be working for Colby at the moment, and that's great. He's always been immensely talented, stubbornness aside.Bottom line for that trade from a St. Louis perspective: The Cardinals acquired three quality arms that were essential in their run to the World Championship. A run to a championship that would have been impossible with Rasmus in the clubhouse, and impossible with the pitching staff assembled as it was prior to the trade. I can't help but laugh when you call it "an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense." Sometimes I think some folks get too caught up in the numbers and worried about what looks and sounds smart rather than looking at the results. Mozeliak's job is to win. He decided to add short term arms and dump a clubhouse issue with his top young player, and directly because of this trade, he won a World Championship. For that reason alone it was a brilliant baseball decision and genius asset management. Any argument to the contrary is not seeing the forest for the trees.

VERY

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Bautista in June: 7 singles. 12 HRs. Unpossible.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Stewart + Frasor + Rezp + Dotel for Rasmus? Fantastic work by AA.

The best player the Jays gave up in this trade is now playing for Jays again.Rasmus on pace for a 4.8 WAR season.

On the other hand, the Cardinals won the World Series

They did, but they a) could have gotten scrub relievers for a much lower price than Rasmus and b) could have gotten a lot more for Rasmus. So you can say it was all worthwhile because they won, and to some extent it is, but it's still an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense.

I know you guys are looking at that trade from the Blue Jays perspective, but the main cog the Cards received in return came from the White Sox in Edwin Jackson. Jackson went 5-2 down the stretch for the Cards and made the playoff rotation. Dotel and Zep were far from "scrub relievers" for the Cards in 2011. Zep had a 1.23 ERA and 0.57 WHIP in 7 1/3 innings of work as the main lefty out of the pen in the NLCS and WS. Dotel was solid the entire time he was with the club. Mr. "Happy Flight" was pretty much the polar opposite of Rasmus in terms of clubhouse presence. To be clear: Rasmus was an organizational issue that needed to be addressed, it went beyond LaRussa. He would rather listen to his daddy than his coaches, and at the big league level that's a problem for most folks. He's either grown up and learned from that experience, or Toronto is okay with his dad calling the shots as his personal hitting instructor. Either way, it seems to be working for Colby at the moment, and that's great. He's always been immensely talented, stubbornness aside.Bottom line for that trade from a St. Louis perspective: The Cardinals acquired three quality arms that were essential in their run to the World Championship. A run to a championship that would have been impossible with Rasmus in the clubhouse, and impossible with the pitching staff assembled as it was prior to the trade. I can't help but laugh when you call it "an awful baseball trade and horrible asset management that would never happen if not for the LaRussa nonsense." Sometimes I think some folks get too caught up in the numbers and worried about what looks and sounds smart rather than looking at the results. Mozeliak's job is to win. He decided to add short term arms and dump a clubhouse issue with his top young player, and directly because of this trade, he won a World Championship. For that reason alone it was a brilliant baseball decision and genius asset management. Any argument to the contrary is not seeing the forest for the trees.

VERY

yep - RnR got one right.... for once

 

[Northern Voice]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

 

[Eephus]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

In 1992, the Blue Jays picked up David Cone at the trading deadline. Cone pitched well down the stretch (53 IP, 161 ERA+) and had two good starts in the playoffs. He then left as a free agent.Toronto gave up a rookie Jeff Kent for two months of Cone. Would you trade the team's first World Series for six club controlled years of Kent?

 

[RnR]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

The fact that you're still talking about future WAR shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what went on. Baseball involves real people with complicated relationships and varying personalities. If we could put talent in a vacuum and computer simulate the results, the future WAR might have some merit in this discussion. Unfortunately, in the real world, the dynamics and functionality of the relationships of players on a team dramatically affect the result. More so than the stand alone talent of one person.Also, I'll take a link to teams handing out Edwin Jackson and solid contributing bullpen arms for "next to nothing" this trade deadline. While we're at it, I'll also float another idea at you in terms of Rasmus' trade value: Word gets around quickly. Major League clubs will balk at sending a boatload of prospects for a player that is a perceived clubhouse problem. You aren't completing a trade on your Baseball Mogul sim manager here, NV.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

The fact that you're still talking about future WAR shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what went on. Baseball involves real people with complicated relationships and varying personalities. If we could put talent in a vacuum and computer simulate the results, the future WAR might have some merit in this discussion. Unfortunately, in the real world, the dynamics and functionality of the relationships of players on a team dramatically affect the result. More so than the stand alone talent of one person.

Also, I'll take a link to teams handing out Edwin Jackson and solid contributing bullpen arms for "next to nothing" this trade deadline.

While we're at it, I'll also float another idea at you in terms of Rasmus' trade value: Word gets around quickly. Major League clubs will balk at sending a boatload of prospects for a player that is a perceived clubhouse problem. You aren't completing a trade on your Baseball Mogul sim manager here, NV.

Maybe not this year. Last year Edwin was handed to the Jays for virtually nothing.

 

[Northern Voice]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

The fact that you're still talking about future WAR shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what went on. Baseball involves real people with complicated relationships and varying personalities. If we could put talent in a vacuum and computer simulate the results, the future WAR might have some merit in this discussion. Unfortunately, in the real world, the dynamics and functionality of the relationships of players on a team dramatically affect the result. More so than the stand alone talent of one person.

I get that you want to take the future out of the equation, if I were a Cards fan, I likely would as well.In terms of relievers being given away, the Rangers picked up 2 better relievers at last years deadline and did it without dealing away a young star player. As has been mentioned, the Jays did get Edwin Jackson for almost nothing before trading him to the Cards.

 

[RnR]

I still disagree. It's easy to say flags fly forever, even for the worst world series championship team in MLB history but it was still a poor return for Rasmus and they could have acquired a Dotel and a Zep from any team in baseball for next to nothing and had something of value on their roster to show for the young, potential 5 WAR CF a year later.

The fact that you're still talking about future WAR shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what went on. Baseball involves real people with complicated relationships and varying personalities. If we could put talent in a vacuum and computer simulate the results, the future WAR might have some merit in this discussion. Unfortunately, in the real world, the dynamics and functionality of the relationships of players on a team dramatically affect the result. More so than the stand alone talent of one person.

I get that you want to take the future out of the equation, if I were a Cards fan, I likely would as well.In terms of relievers being given away, the Rangers picked up 2 better relievers at last years deadline and did it without dealing away a young star player. As has been mentioned, the Jays did get Edwin Jackson for almost nothing before trading him to the Cards.

I know you're trying to paint this like I'm being a Cardinals homer in this discussion, but its pretty clear you're in the minority on this topic. Pretty much every non-Blue Jay fans has told you otherwise in here. When I tell you that Rasmus had no future with the organization because he had burned bridges, you like to act like that didn't really happen. Or when I tell you that believe it or not, there weren't 29 teams knocking down the Cardinals door for a kid that hit .225 with an attitude issue and the entitlement of a top prospect, you like to act like he was coveted like Mike Trout or Bryce Harper.I'll talk about the future for a minute: He didn't have one with the Cardinals. Bridges were burned, patience was worn thin, and quite simply he was not going to be in a position to be successful there any longer. Circumstance has as much to do with a player's success as his talent does. I know you can't calculate that into a nice little formula, but that remains a huge element of the game. If Rasmus was going to reach his full performance potential, it was going to be with 3 things: 1- A change of scenery, 2- A change of approach at the plate, 3- A change of priority in the daddy/coach debate. He has the first two this season, time will tell if he's fully accepted the third.

 

[Northern Voice]

I don't know whether to hate Cordero for sucking, Farrell for using him or Anthopolous for still having him on the roster.

Pitching has gone so bad, starters all died, they've used so many bad relievers, aside from janssen, Perez, Oliver and Frasor who have been decent.

When the starter you have the most faith in is Carlos Villanueva, there's trouble.

At least Moyer was released before we had to see his 81 MPH fastball.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I don't know whether to hate Cordero for sucking, Farrell for using him or Anthopolous for still having him on the roster.Pitching has gone so bad, starters all died, they've used so many bad relievers, aside from janssen, Perez, Oliver and Frasor who have been decent. When the starter you have the most faith in is Carlos Villanueva, there's trouble.At least Moyer was released before we had to see his 81 MPH fastball.

The plugs in the starting rotation have done much better than expected and has kept them in a lot of games. But the pen has been ####tacular. I think equal blame has to be put on Farrell and Coco. Coco cause he is old and sucks. Farrell because he should be recognizing this. Keep him on the roster for blowout games to save the other arms.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

 

[Northern Voice]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

 

[Eephus]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

You forgot Wells and Rios

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

You forgot Wells and Rios

They were just happy to steal money.

 

[Northern Voice]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

You forgot Wells and Rios

They were just happy to steal money.

Wells and Rios were pre-Anthopolous, everyone I listed was in the AA era. Also, I still like Rios (he was my Snider before Snider), so much talent. Getting rid of him worked out extremely well for the Jays because it allowed Bautista to play every day, but was 7/70 that bad for Rios?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

You forgot Wells and Rios

They were just happy to steal money.

Wells and Rios were pre-Anthopolous, everyone I listed was in the AA era. Also, I still like Rios (he was my Snider before Snider), so much talent. Getting rid of him worked out extremely well for the Jays because it allowed Bautista to play every day, but was 7/70 that bad for Rios?

I was a Rios fan as well. Looking back on it, no it wasn't that bad of a deal. He put up similar numbers to what Rasmus had in his first couple seasons and I don't think too many people would say 7/70 would be too much for Rasmus in another year or two.

 

[Eephus]

Jays extend EE. 3/$27M plus a $10M team option for 2016. Great deal if stays anywhere near his production this year.

Yep, deal makes sense for the team and EE. He's was DFA'd not that long ago, now he's got great security. Could he have gotten more coming off a 30 or even 40 HR season as a UFA? Maybe. It's nice to see so many players happy to forego free agency and stay in Toronto. This now makes Bautista, Encarnacion, Morrow, Romero, Escobar, Janssen and Lind who signed extensions before they reached free agent eligibility. I'm sure you'll be able to add Rasmus to the list pretty soon too, as he's obviously found a place he's happy here. Extensions cost a lot less than UFA signings as well, so it helps AA with cost flexibility that he's so set on maintaining. Who was the last guy that left Toronto that they didn't want to leave?, a couple guys in trades, but for a guy who left via free agency, no one comes immediately to mind.

You forgot Wells and Rios

They were just happy to steal money.

Wells and Rios were pre-Anthopolous, everyone I listed was in the AA era. Also, I still like Rios (he was my Snider before Snider), so much talent. Getting rid of him worked out extremely well for the Jays because it allowed Bautista to play every day, but was 7/70 that bad for Rios?

Yeah, I know those guys were JPR signings. I was just pulling your chain because they were examples of retaining homegrown talent gone wrong.None of AA's signings are big overpays like Wells and Rios were. On the other hand, nobody is really outperforming their contract. AA's record otherwise is mixed. The Halladay package wasn't that great, although there's hope for D'Arnaud. Toronto wins the Taylor-Wallace-Gose transaction as the last man standing. Escobar has been better than I expected but Pastornicky and Tim Collins look like players. Dealing Wells was a victory in itself but AA gave the trophy away to Texas. Lawrie was a good case of finding a trading partner in win now mode. Player development has been hampered by injury but that happens to everybody.GMs are ultimately judged by what they win. I still think Brian Sabean is a boob but he has a ring that says I'm wrong. Toronto's position players are good enough to compete. Injuries have killed their pitching this year but it's an average staff even if everyone gets healthy. The extra Wild Card makes everybody look like a contender, even if they aren't. I don't think they're ready to make a run this year. They'd be smarter to try and add an arm in the off-season. Unfortunately, their best pitching prospects have 2014 ETAs.

 

[Northern Voice]

None of AA's signings are big overpays like Wells and Rios were. On the other hand, nobody is really outperforming their contract. AA's record otherwise is mixed. The Halladay package wasn't that great, although there's hope for D'Arnaud. Toronto wins the Taylor-Wallace-Gose transaction as the last man standing. Escobar has been better than I expected but Pastornicky and Tim Collins look like players. Dealing Wells was a victory in itself but AA gave the trophy away to Texas. Lawrie was a good case of finding a trading partner in win now mode. Player development has been hampered by injury but that happens to everybody.

On the whole he's been pretty great.I'm not sure how Jose Bautista "isn't outperforming" his 5 year 65 million dollar contract. He's hit something like 30 more HR's than anyone else in baseball over the last 3 years and he makes half what Pujols/Fielder do. And he was criticized for the extension at the time "one good season..." According to Fangraphs he was worth 37 million last season alone.

Not to bring the discussion up again but he traded Zach Stewart and a pile of used tampons for Colby Rasmus, who is on pace for a 30 HR season with above average CF defence. When AA took over the Jays they had John Buck, Arencibia, Alex Gonzalez and Vernon Albatross in the key, up the middle positions, with no real prospects. Now they have d'Arnaud, Escobar, Hechavarria, Rasmus and Gose, all added in the 2 years Anthopolous has been on the job (as well as Arencibia and Marisnick from JPR).

He traded a good starter with injury history, an 89 MPH fastball, and a tremendous love of strip clubs for Brett Lawrie (who, to be fair also probably loves strip clubs as long as they serve red bull).

The Halladay deal he could only trade with one team but d'Arnaud and Gose both look like real prospects, personally I would trade Gose right now while his value is at his peak. d'Arnaud is hands down the best catching prospect in baseball, almost uniformly a top 10 prospect but until he's in the MLB nothing is for sure (with any prospect, ever)

At this point the Escobar trade is basically Tim Collins for Escobar and I think every GM would take the starting SS over the reliever. Despite his offensive struggles this year, Escobar will easily earn his 4yr/20 million dollar extension.

Trading Nestor Molina for Sergio Santos looks like a good move, even with Santos maybe not pitching at all this season (Molina is getting shelled in double A).

They acquired more high upside players in both the 2011 and 2012 drafts than any other team (in 2011 from hoarding compensatory picks, 2012 from punting rounds 4-10).

The Wells trade, like you say dealing Napoli was a mistake but Frank Francisco was actually good for the Jays last season despite what some fans will tell you. To get anyone to take the Wells contract did so much for the team on its own, you can almost excuse this but that trade and signing Francisco Cordero are his two worst moves.

The big knock on AA is he hasn't yet put together a playoff team and until he does, there's room for criticism. He also hasn't shown himself able to make any free agent signing of significance. I think there are things he could do a lot better but in terms of drafting, trading and contract extensions, he's been great.

Overall I look at it this way:

Moves you would make again:

Bautista Extension

Rasmus Trade

Lawrie Trade

Escobar Trade

Santos trade

Initial Wells Trade

Morrow Extension

Escobar Extension

Janssen Extension

Oliver Signing

Rajai Davis signing/extension

Neutral Moves

Halladay Trade (factoring in the Taylor/Wallace/Gose stuff here, he made the best of a situation JPR created)

Romero Extension (looked good last year, not as much now)

Encarnacion Extension (can't judge yet)

Lind extension - speaks to how team friendly it was that this isn't hurting them

Dotel signing

Patterson signing

Negative moves

Lack of offseason trade/signing of SP

Napoli/Francisco Trade

Cordero Signing

Rauch signing

Johnson/Hill trade - not sure Hill would have rebounded in Toronto but he's looking great

McGowan extension

Not having Snider on the roster

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Negative moves

Lack of offseason trade/signing of SP

Napoli/Francisco Trade

Cordero Signing

Rauch signing

Johnson/Hill trade - not sure Hill would have rebounded in Toronto but he's looking great

McGowan extension

Not having Snider on the roster

Not to be an AA apologist but a few of these made sense.Napoli/Francisco: Yes, in hindsight it looks bad but the Jays had JP and didn't need another catcher. Napoli had a big season in hitters paradise but is back down to around where he should be (a little below actually). Jays needed bullpen help and got it with Francisco even though he was used terribly by Farrell.

Cordero/Rauch - Again, help needed in the pen and used terribly by Farrell.

Hill wasn't going to hit again in Toronto. Same concept as Rasmus in St. Louis (minus the drama). Same thing that could happen when Lind gets shipped out but you can only hold onto a guy ####ting the bed for so long.

McGowan extension was spectacularly terrible.

Snider's time will come.

The lack of acquiring starting pitching this winter was painful but understandable. With all the great young arms in the system, you'd have to think at least one or two would have stepped up. He damn well better get a proven arm or two for next year.

 

[Tiger Fan]

is lawrie playing tonight?

 

[Brady Marino]

Not to bring the discussion up again but he traded Zach Stewart and a pile of used tampons for Colby Rasmus, who is on pace for a 30 HR season with above average CF defence.

Too bad those tampons helped the Cards win a World Series.