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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (3 Viewers)

culdeus said:
Anyone got a explanation of what this swift thing is they can link?
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What is Swift?

Swift (the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication) is the main secure messaging system that banks use to make rapid and secure cross-border payments, allowing international trade to flow smoothly. It has become the principal mechanism for financing international trade. In 2020, about 38 million transactions were sent each day over the Swift platform, facilitating trillions of dollars’ worth of deals.

Who owns Swift?

Swift, founded in the 1970s, is a cooperative of thousands of member institutions that use the service. Based in Belgium, it remains neutral in trade disputes, being run principally as a service to its members.

Why would a Swift ban be so serious?

Boris Johnson told MPs it would harm the Russian economy if it were locked out of Swift. Run-of-the-mill transactions would need to be conducted directly between banks, or routed through fledgling rival systems, adding to costs and creating delays.

Why is the US reluctant to implement a ban?

One reason is that the impact on Russian businesses might not be so serious. The head of a large Russian bank, VTB, said recently he could use other channels for payments, such as phones, messaging apps or email. Russian banks could also route payments via countries that have not imposed sanctions, such as China, which has set up its own payments system to rival Swift. A ban on Russia using Swift could accelerate a the use of China’s rival Cips system. There is also a fear that it could damage to the US dollar’s status as the global reserve currency, and accelerate the use of alternatives such as cryptocurrencies.

Would a Swift ban affect other countries?

The Biden administration is also concerned that a ban could harm its allies as much as it does Russian firms. Russia is a big buyer of foreign manufactured goods, especially from the Netherlands and Germany. Russia is the main EU supplier of crude oil, natural gas and solid fossil fuels, and European countries could find it harder to find replacement suppliers.

Is Swift bound by economic sanctions?

In the past, Swift has resisted calls to impose bans on certain countries, describing itself as neutral. But in 2012, the European Union barred Swift from serving Iranian firms and individuals sanctioned in relation to Tehran’s nuclear programme, setting a precedent for action against Russia. A Swift spokesperson declined to say how the organisation would respond to any US sanctions, Reuters said.
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The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.

Foreign ministers are planning to approve the sanctions package this afternoon, along with a number of measures against Russian banks and industry, the paper quotes three people familiar with the matter.

Putin and Lavrov will not be subject to a ban on travelling under the measures, the FT writes, underlining the EU’s willingness to keep symbolic diplomatic possibilities open.

An EU official, speaking under condition of anonymity, told Reuters: “We are moving as quickly as we can,” adding the bloc could also target “many more” oligarchs.

 
Sleestak said:
Good chance.  Ukraine is about the size of what, Texas?  Not easy to control a place that big with 100,000 unenthusiastic troops.  Ukraine could make this a real PITA if they stick with it.  It will cost them horribly, however.  Putin has a little bit of Hitler in him - the eye towards ethnic history and the nursing of ancient grudges - well Hitler also was a big fan of brutal reprisals in conquered lands.  I suspect Putin will resort to this as well if the Ukrainians don't roll over.
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As apropos of the well worn "You know who else did X? Hitler" joke/insult.

 
Tom Servo said:
Sleestak said:
Good chance.  Ukraine is about the size of what, Texas?  Not easy to control a place that big with 100,000 unenthusiastic troops.  Ukraine could make this a real PITA if they stick with it.  It will cost them horribly, however.  Putin has a little bit of Hitler in him - the eye towards ethnic history and the nursing of ancient grudges - well Hitler also was a big fan of brutal reprisals in conquered lands.  I suspect Putin will resort to this as well if the Ukrainians don't roll over.
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As apropos of the well worn "You know who else did X? Hitler" joke/insult.
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I’m always surprised how few Americans (i.e., average knowledge folks, not the exceptional who hang out here) know about the Holodomor. 

Among the many reasons why Ukrainians don’t share Vlad’s wistful memories of the good ole days.

 
BobbyLayne said:
I’m always surprised how few Americans (i.e., average knowledge folks, not the exceptional who hang out here) know about the Holodomor. 

Among the many reasons why Ukrainians don’t share Vlad’s wistful memories of the good ole days.
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I knew of that.  One of the many dork moves Stalin pulled.  What an ahole he was.

 
Tom Servo said:
I knew of that.  One of the many dork moves Stalin pulled.  What an ahole he was.
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One of the most reverential figures in Russian history. Still polls as one of their all time great leaders. One reason for the collective amnesia is there are an equal or greater number descendants of the perpetrators as there are families of the ancestral victims.

Various scholarly studies on deaths attributed to Stalin directives and policies range from 20 to 60 million. Maybe Vlad is operating with the long lens of history in mind.

That Joe Joe’s always on
My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my mind

 
massraider said:
Holy smokes

Single Ukrainian, jumping in front of a Russian convoy, repeatedly. 

Video seems real and recent, you can see the white 'Z' on the Russian vehicles. 
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Slays me the antidote to friendly fire is to paint big white Zs on the side, rear and roof of vehicles / armored units. Because the Ukrainians have the same equipment.

Did commandos seize the Ukrainian equivalent of Lowe’s, Home Depot and Benjamin Moore as part of the initial blitz?

 
It's going to be interesting to see the impacts of social media on all of this.  These sort of Putin antics work best when done under the shroud of darkness.  Social media makes that virtually impossible.

 
This is going to be another covid thing, where the PSF version of this thread is the kiddie table and this is the thread where the adults can talk, right?

 
eoMMan said:
Before this conflict (or maybe after), was it relatively safe for an American to vacation in Russia?
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Yes, my understanding is that it was about as safe as visiting any other autocratic country, like China for example.  I know a couple of people personally who travel there from time to time, one of whom lived there for a while.  (No first hand experience).

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This is going to be another covid thing, where the PSF version of this thread is the kiddie table and this is the thread where the adults can talk, right?
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I actually think that thread has been good so far. Lots of info. There is a lot of back and forth about trump/Biden but it’s usually the same 4 people so I just keep scrolling. 

 
Jayrod said:
Report of Ukraine actually going on the offensive and striking an air base within Russia.

I wondered if the had the capability to do some of this.

Also seeing/hearing reports that Russia and Belarus are mobilizing even more troops into Ukraine, particularly out of Chechnya.  
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You saw that video of the 10,000-ish troops getting ready to deploy, right? At the same time, Putin has announced he is willing to negotiate, send people to Minsk for talks (Uhh, Belarus is the place to negotiate? Don't think I would go for that). 

Just thinking out loud here, but with Ukraine settling in for guerrilla warfare, I think Putin buying time with some BS negotiations in Minsk, while he sends for cannon fodder from Chechnya, seems like a good idea. Let the Chech troops walk into molotov cocktails and booby traps, and the Russians can come in behind and clean up. 

 
massraider said:
You saw that video of the 10,000-ish troops getting ready to deploy, right? At the same time, Putin has announced he is willing to negotiate, send people to Minsk for talks (Uhh, Belarus is the place to negotiate? Don't think I would go for that). 

Just thinking out loud here, but with Ukraine settling in for guerrilla warfare, I think Putin buying time with some BS negotiations in Minsk, while he sends for cannon fodder from Chechnya, seems like a good idea. Let the Chech troops walk into molotov cocktails and booby traps, and the Russians can come in behind and clean up. 
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I saw something that Russia wants to talk, but only if Ukraine stops fighting first. That’s comically stupid, if you ask me.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
eoMMan said:
Before this conflict (or maybe after), was it relatively safe for an American to vacation in Russia?
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Yes, my understanding is that it was about as safe as visiting any other autocratic country, like China for example.  I know a couple of people personally who travel there from time to time, one of whom lived there for a while.  (No first hand experience).
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Yea, good friend of mine has Russian friends he would visit often. Obviously helpful to travel with Russians, while in Russia, but he never once felt uncomfortable or in fear that anything would happen to him. I imagine that will all change now.

 
So my 18 YO senior.  He makes good grades, but his life revolves around baseball, so he basically has very little interest in school or current events (other than sports). 

I guess last night after practice he and his 18 other teammates went to walmart and bought royal blue sweatshirts / sweatpants to wear to school today.  I didn't know it until he came out for breakfast and he told me.  Brought a little tear to my eye.  He said "it's the least that we can do".  He also mentioned "can't even imagine what kids my age are going through over in the Ukraine AND in Russia".  

 
coopersdad said:
So my 18 YO senior.  He makes good grades, but his life revolves around baseball, so he basically has very little interest in school or current events (other than sports). 

I guess last night after practice he and his 18 other teammates went to walmart and bought royal blue sweatshirts / sweatpants to wear to school today.  I didn't know it until he came out for breakfast and he told me.  Brought a little tear to my eye.  He said "it's the least that we can do".  He also mentioned "can't even imagine what kids my age are going through over in the Ukraine AND in Russia".  
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he's smarter than me - why royal blue?

 
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massraider said:
Just thinking out loud here, but with Ukraine settling in for guerrilla warfare, I think Putin buying time with some BS negotiations in Minsk, while he sends for cannon fodder from Chechnya, seems like a good idea. Let the Chech troops walk into molotov cocktails and booby traps, and the Russians can come in behind and clean up. 
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From a purely strategic standpoint, given what we've seen from the Russian conscripts, I think I'd reverse that and save the Chechens for the real fighting. Say what you will about them but their major export the last 20 years seems to be war fighters. They are another breed. That said, I don't think Russian mom's would like to see body bags coming back from Putin's war which is how I think it would be viewed in the eyes of the populace.

The mobile crematoriums I saw in the Russian supply lines make me think the Russian populace is going to get a whitewashed version of what's happening anyhow but at some point when Junior doesn't come home, somebody is going to ask questions.

 
coopersdad said:
So my 18 YO senior.  He makes good grades, but his life revolves around baseball, so he basically has very little interest in school or current events (other than sports). 

I guess last night after practice he and his 18 other teammates went to walmart and bought royal blue sweatshirts / sweatpants to wear to school today.  I didn't know it until he came out for breakfast and he told me.  Brought a little tear to my eye.  He said "it's the least that we can do".  He also mentioned "can't even imagine what kids my age are going through over in the Ukraine AND in Russia".  
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I had a long discussion with my 12 year old daughter about what was going on after she asked me.  I was pulling up maps and explaining some (very brief) history and describing why Russia is doing this, etc.  She was legitimately interested.  I was proud of her, but then again I've been talking about it with my wife for 2 days now.

 
Jayrod said:
I had a long discussion with my 12 year old daughter about what was going on after she asked me.  I was pulling up maps and explaining some (very brief) history and describing why Russia is doing this, etc.  She was legitimately interested.  I was proud of her, but then again I've been talking about it with my wife for 2 days now.
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We did this at the dinner table last night with my 16, 14 and 11 year olds. I didn't pull out maps but we talked a good bit about what's going on over there and how it could potentially impact us here.

I asked them if any of their teachers talked about it today - nope. Wish they had @fatguyinalittlecoat as their teacher. 

I'll be sorely disappointed if none of their history teachers talk about this today.

 
Kal El said:
I saw something that Russia wants to talk, but only if Ukraine stops fighting first. That’s comically stupid, if you ask me.
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I haven't read exactly that, but saw some talk that his demands for talks would be a non-starter, that would qualify. 

Putin just went on TV, gave an address, and told the Ukrainian military to take matters into their own hands. I mean, two days in, and you are appealing to the military to take over. 

another statement by Putin being played. He is trying to appeal to Ukrainian soldiers now, saying don’t let “drug addicts and neo-Nazis” in Kyiv take you hostage.
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'Putin done gone cray cray' seems like a valid theory. 

 
Jayrod said:
I'll police it and if I see anyone even bring up Trump, Obama, Republicans or Democrats they will get reported and called out.  Any posts about Biden better be stating facts only.  This is here for valid and timely info, not hot takes, political banter or conjecture.
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Or posts about other posters :thumbup:  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This is going to be another covid thing, where the PSF version of this thread is the kiddie table and this is the thread where the adults can talk, right?
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I was about to ask that same question. I ventured over there and wow.  Not going to be able to have a full non-political discussion though. Politics of the last 20+ years got us here. 

 
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Leeroy Jenkins said:
I was about to ask that same question. I ventured over there and wow. 
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I will say the information comes a lot faster in there and more often...I've been pretty active in that thread as well.  But you have to do a lot of scrolling to get to the relevant posts.

 
Jayrod said:
I will say the information comes a lot faster in there and more often...I've been pretty active in that thread as well.  But you have to do a lot of scrolling to get to the relevant posts.
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I think it's best that you and I give up the Eastern flank of the PSF to the jackals, and settle in the Switzerland of the FFA. 

 
beer 30 said:
From a purely strategic standpoint, given what we've seen from the Russian conscripts, I think I'd reverse that and save the Chechens for the real fighting. Say what you will about them but their major export the last 20 years seems to be war fighters. They are another breed.
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https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1497231090041430018

Reports that Chechen dictator Ramzan Kadyrov has promised his soldiers $30,000 dollars for every Ukrainian tank they destroy, $20,000 for every BMP and $5,000 for each Ukrainian volunteer fighter they kill. They are reportedly deploying in Mariupol direction.

 
massraider said:
https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1497231090041430018

Reports that Chechen dictator Ramzan Kadyrov has promised his soldiers $30,000 dollars for every Ukrainian tank they destroy, $20,000 for every BMP and $5,000 for each Ukrainian volunteer fighter they kill. They are reportedly deploying in Mariupol direction.
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This guy is something else.  Seems like he has lived several lives already and is only 45 years old and is also apparently quite intelligent.  Reports are he has 3 wives, like 12 kids and lives a bit of a rockstar lifestyle.

"Kadyrov graduated with a degree in Law from the Makhachkala Institute of Business and Law in 2004. In 2006 he defended his thesis at Dagestan State Technical University to obtain a Candidate of Sciences degree in Economics. In 2015 he defended his thesis at Dagestan State University to obtain a Doctor of Sciences degree in Economics."

 
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