*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (2 Viewers)

[Kal El]

So Putin is "officially" announcing the annexation of those regions today in Moscow. These areas make up 18% of Ukraine. Insane. So now he will use this as justification of "self-defense" when he ups his aggression and potential use of nukes. Sitting idly by and just providing $$ is not going to solve this unfortunately, unless Putin and his followers are ousted from within. To them though, this is a religious war -- look at what the head of the Russian Orthodox Church has been saying.

Biden is in a tough spot. I think he has handled this pretty good thus far, but it's becoming clear that Russia is throwing logic out the window. How do you deal with that?

I have nothing positive to say about the actions of the Russian Orthodox Church. Their actions strongly align with the churches in Germany leading up to WW2.

The church has no say on who gets forgiven, and I’m sure if they checked in with their Boss, He’d say as much to them.

“If someone, driven by a sense of duty, the need to fulfill an oath, remains true to his calling and dies in the line of military duty, then he undoubtedly commits an act that is tantamount to a sacrifice,” Kirill said in the sermon. “He sacrifices himself for others,” Kirill said. “And therefore we believe that this sacrifice washes away all the sins that a person has committed.”

““You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:13-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Russian soldiers have been breaking at least these 5 Commandments this entire time. Invading a sovereign country, killing/ raping its citizens, attempting to steal their land because they wanted it, lying about it to everyone else(that’s mostly Putin, but still valid here), I’m going to have to side with God. The Russian Orthodox Church is completely in the wrong here.

 

[Chadstroma]

Can you imagine if NATO went to war with Russia? Take the threat and most likely eventual use of WMD's out of the it for a little. Ukraine stopped the Russians cold using almost all old Soviet era equipment. They have gained an influx of weaponry since but as much as they get some of the good stuff like Javelin's, Stingers, Starstreaks etc and later HIMARS much of it has been second hand older and on the verge of being obsolete like the various Soviet era stuff the eastern European NATO members were trying to get rid of anyways like Strela 3's and or western NATO giving their functioning M113's.

Imagine going against all of the numerical and quality differences that NATO would have in combat compared to the Ukrainians.

I believe the Ukrainians took to US training in 2014ish and I think that has played a major part in them dismantling the Russians as well but doesn't get as much play as the weapons do. Certainly the technology plays a part but so do tactics and probably more than anything the heart to defend your homeland to the last.

See the encirclement of Lyman as an example of a textbook military engagement. It's going to be ugly for the Russians that are in the middle of that and will probably start to tighten over the next few days. https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-troops-encircling-russian-forces-putin-counteroffensive-1747189

To your point, if NATO became involved I don't think it takes more than a week before Putin pushes the button. He would have no choice to try and stave off complete annihilation.

If NATO were to get involved, ALL Russian forces in Ukraine (including annexed territory) would be obliterated or running into Russia in about 96 hours. There would be no presence left. The entire Black Sea fleet would be promoted to new classes of submarines. It would be so one sided, like we saw against the Iraqi's, that I think you are right- nukes would be in play and then you can't deescalate that. It will be "Well, humanity had a good run while it lasted." and for Fing what?! Because Putin aches for the days of Russian Imperialism?

No doubt that the Ukrainian forces have taken western training as well as continued intel and assistance beyond weaponry and tactics/strategy.

Defending your homeland to the Russians going around a captured town asking babushka's "where are the Nazi's?" is huge. When you have no idea what is going on, why you are there and are given little support and in some instances supplies and meet a determined force- it explains a lot that they are melting away.

The only off ramp I see on this is a Russian coup. Gawd, I hope someone had the juice and balls to do it.

Short of that, what national leader has the ability to broker an end to this that can make sense? Our President, who usually is looked to in a time like this, is hopelessly senile. I am really worried about the final outcome of this.

 

[beer 30]

If NATO were to get involved, ALL Russian forces in Ukraine (including annexed territory) would be obliterated or running into Russia in about 96 hours. There would be no presence left. The entire Black Sea fleet would be promoted to new classes of submarines. It would be so one sided, like we saw against the Iraqi's, that I think you are right- nukes would be in play and then you can't deescalate that. It will be "Well, humanity had a good run while it lasted." and for Fing what?! Because Putin aches for the days of Russian Imperialism?

No doubt that the Ukrainian forces have taken western training as well as continued intel and assistance beyond weaponry and tactics/strategy.

Defending your homeland to the Russians going around a captured town asking babushka's "where are the Nazi's?" is huge. When you have no idea what is going on, why you are there and are given little support and in some instances supplies and meet a determined force- it explains a lot that they are melting away.

The only off ramp I see on this is a Russian coup. Gawd, I hope someone had the juice and balls to do it.

Short of that, what national leader has the ability to broker an end to this that can make sense? Our President, who usually is looked to in a time like this, is hopelessly senile. I am really worried about the final outcome of this.

It's a very slippery slope and don't foresee a coup ending this. I wish that it were so but he's spent decades setting up dependencies on him being the man so I just don't see anyone rising up and doing the deed, he's too insulated. I don't see a popular uprising either, Russian's are just used to getting beat down and moving forward. We see some video of protests against the mobilizations but they are going to be put down hard if they keep up. Iran has a better chance of removing the Mullah's than the Russian people do of removing Putin.

I mentioned it in the Politics thread regarding nukes, we (the West) have to do everything possible to avoid that outcome. And that includes sacrificing Ukraine. I'm not willing to blow up the world for them. Love what they are doing but it's not our war and certainly not worth ending civilization as we know over. The only chance I see having some effect on this runs through China & India, the last two countries to sorta support Russia. The pressure would have to come from them as well as stepped up sanctions from the West (no more Russian gas) and even then I don't think Vlad capitulates. As you said, he has a vision of the bygone days of Russian Imperialism and he will make it his legacy or die trying.

 

[The Z Machine]

What were the casualty numbers for the USSR decade occupying Afghanistan? Have they surpassed that already?

 

[Chadstroma]

If NATO were to get involved, ALL Russian forces in Ukraine (including annexed territory) would be obliterated or running into Russia in about 96 hours. There would be no presence left. The entire Black Sea fleet would be promoted to new classes of submarines. It would be so one sided, like we saw against the Iraqi's, that I think you are right- nukes would be in play and then you can't deescalate that. It will be "Well, humanity had a good run while it lasted." and for Fing what?! Because Putin aches for the days of Russian Imperialism?

No doubt that the Ukrainian forces have taken western training as well as continued intel and assistance beyond weaponry and tactics/strategy.

Defending your homeland to the Russians going around a captured town asking babushka's "where are the Nazi's?" is huge. When you have no idea what is going on, why you are there and are given little support and in some instances supplies and meet a determined force- it explains a lot that they are melting away.

The only off ramp I see on this is a Russian coup. Gawd, I hope someone had the juice and balls to do it.

Short of that, what national leader has the ability to broker an end to this that can make sense? Our President, who usually is looked to in a time like this, is hopelessly senile. I am really worried about the final outcome of this.

It's a very slippery slope and don't foresee a coup ending this. I wish that it were so but he's spent decades setting up dependencies on him being the man so I just don't see anyone rising up and doing the deed, he's too insulated. I don't see a popular uprising either, Russian's are just used to getting beat down and moving forward. We see some video of protests against the mobilizations but they are going to be put down hard if they keep up. Iran has a better chance of removing the Mullah's than the Russian people do of removing Putin.

I mentioned it in the Politics thread regarding nukes, we (the West) have to do everything possible to avoid that outcome. And that includes sacrificing Ukraine. I'm not willing to blow up the world for them. Love what they are doing but it's not our war and certainly not worth ending civilization as we know over. The only chance I see having some effect on this runs through China & India, the last two countries to sorta support Russia. The pressure would have to come from them as well as stepped up sanctions from the West (no more Russian gas) and even then I don't think Vlad capitulates. As you said, he has a vision of the bygone days of Russian Imperialism and he will make it his legacy or die trying.

Absolutely agree that the key here is India and China. They have to see the horror that this road can and honestly is going right now. They must make it clear that they not only are against it but would be against Russia if WMD's are used. Putin has to see that it is not an alternative.

My hope now other than that annexation is the last ditch effort to make a "success" of this and that they will not defend it like they would actual Russian land.

 

[Chadstroma]

What were the casualty numbers for the USSR decade occupying Afghanistan? Have they surpassed that already?

Ukraine has well surprassed that.

Dead in Afghanistan is about 15K.

Ukraine puts Russian dead at around 45K, I think, which is assuredly high. Russia says like 1,200. there is no doubt whatever the number is, it js more than 15K.

 

[AAABatteries]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

 

[Wildcat]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

My guess is that he will consider an attack on these new territories as an attack on the "homeland" and justify the use of nuclear weapons.

 

[AAABatteries]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

My guess is that he will consider an attack on these new territories as an attack on the "homeland" and justify the use of nuclear weapons.

That's what I keep reading but can he possibly think that the rest of the world will sit back and allow that?

 

[beer 30]

My guess is that he will consider an attack on these new territories as an attack on the "homeland" and justify the use of nuclear weapons.

And then there's this https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/zelenskiy-says-ukraine-applying-nato-membership-2022-09-30/

 

[massraider]

That's what I keep reading but can he possibly think that the rest of the world will sit back and allow that?

I don't think so, but the worrying about nukes.... if you follow these discussions to their logical conclusion, the way to avoid Putin pushing the button is everyone cave in and give him what he wants. We've seen these arguments made in here, by people that thought Ukraine had no chance. Now it looks like Russia has no chance, they are kidnapping their own drunk citizens to fight.

No one is provoking him. It's not like we are invading Russia.
He's taking things that don't belong to him. He's committing war crimes.
The threat of nukes is there. It definitely is, but the time to act against this guy is now.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

No one is provoking him. It's not like we are invading Russia.
He's taking things that don't belong to him. He's committing war crimes.
The threat of nukes is there. It definitely is, but the time to act against this guy is now.

And appeasing tyrants NEVER WORKS. Cave on this and we'll be right back here in a few years in some other country.

 

[Kal El]

No one is provoking him. It's not like we are invading Russia.
He's taking things that don't belong to him. He's committing war crimes.
The threat of nukes is there. It definitely is, but the time to act against this guy is now.

And appeasing tyrants NEVER WORKS. Cave on this and we'll be right back here in a few years in some other country.

Exactly, he’s(I believe) on record as wanting to restore the USSR’s old territory, which is clearly not happening with his army being hot garbage. All he has left are the threat of nukes, and the fact he hasn’t done it yet, I’m not believing him.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Ukraine pushing further east as Russian units retreat from Lyman. From some of the reports there have some horrific losses for the Russians in that area. Ukraine has been moving SE from kupiansk to threaten Svatove. If Russia loses that I can't see them holding western half of luhansk oblast.

Also seeing reports of Ukraine breaking through in the NE Kherson region pushing as far as Dudchany.

 

[The Z Machine]

Ukraine pushing further east as Russian units retreat from Lyman. From some of the reports there have some horrific losses for the Russians in that area. Ukraine has been moving SE from kupiansk to threaten Svatove. If Russia loses that I can't see them holding western half of luhansk oblast.

Also seeing reports of Ukraine breaking through in the NE Kherson region pushing as far as Dudchany.

Not that i know anything, but I'm honestly shocked that RU is getting routed like this. Just a pure and utterly catastrophic experience for them.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Ukraine pushing further east as Russian units retreat from Lyman. From some of the reports there have some horrific losses for the Russians in that area. Ukraine has been moving SE from kupiansk to threaten Svatove. If Russia loses that I can't see them holding western half of luhansk oblast.

Also seeing reports of Ukraine breaking through in the NE Kherson region pushing as far as Dudchany.

Not that i know anything, but I'm honestly shocked that RU is getting routed like this. Just a pure and utterly catastrophic experience for them.

I had seen briefs about the deteriorating condition of their military, but I don't think anyone expected this.

 

[culdeus]

You see stuff and don't know if it's true, but I giggled today at the reports about Russia comms. The ru soldiers are going on social media in the hopes their followers call in air support for them.

 

[beer 30]

You see stuff and don't know if it's true, but I giggled today at the reports about Russia comms. The ru soldiers are going on social media in the hopes their followers call in air support for them.

This has been one of, if not the most egregious parts of the war for them. Using 20 year old tech to fight a modern war against an adversary that has access to US tech is going to end badly for you.

 

[culdeus]

You see stuff and don't know if it's true, but I giggled today at the reports about Russia comms. The ru soldiers are going on social media in the hopes their followers call in air support for them.

This has been one of, if not the most egregious parts of the war for them. Using 20 year old tech to fight a modern war against an adversary that has access to US tech is going to end badly for you.

It's been basically like having a cheat code. The only thing Russia has that seems to work are iranian drones.

The other fun part of the Ukraine strategy which was proposed by the US is to always allow for a corridor of escape that seems to make sense. This prevents having to deal with a lot of POW and you can just pick apart the equipment instead.

 

[beer 30]

The other fun part of the Ukraine strategy which was proposed by the US is to always allow for a corridor of escape that seems to make sense. This prevents having to deal with a lot of POW and you can just pick apart the equipment instead.

Noticed that with Lyman. Figured they would just bury them but they all seemed to make it out. Good play by the Ukrainians.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Something just doesn't seem right. Do we think Putin is drawing people into these regions in order to do something terrible?

 

[culdeus]

Something just doesn't seem right. Do we think Putin is drawing people into these regions in order to do something terrible?

No. The op sec here if you buy it would indicate they are completely out of morale, advanced weapons, and in many cases food. There are reports out there that Russia coughed up nearly 1B in money for new winter gear and possibly as much as only 10% of this got allocated, then promptly got eaten by moths. The rest went for corruption or other needs.

A lot of this is tough to verify, but they legitimately are starving and freezing to death where they aren't actually getting killed. It's only going to get worse.

One thing that is clear is the thought that Ukraine would pause for a second after the referendums is over.

 

[culdeus]

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar is a site I tend to trust.

https://twitter.com/i/lists/1496975442372354053

This list is a reasonably well collated list of sites, not everything in this list is necessarily trustworthy.

 

[Chadstroma]

Something just doesn't seem right. Do we think Putin is drawing people into these regions in order to do something terrible?

No. The op sec here if you buy it would indicate they are completely out of morale, advanced weapons, and in many cases food. There are reports out there that Russia coughed up nearly 1B in money for new winter gear and possibly as much as only 10% of this got allocated, then promptly got eaten by moths. The rest went for corruption or other needs.

A lot of this is tough to verify, but they legitimately are starving and freezing to death where they aren't actually getting killed. It's only going to get worse.

One thing that is clear is the thought that Ukraine would pause for a second after the referendums is over.

I saw a video of the new recruits they have been pulling in for that 300K showing off their rusted AK's they were issued. When I say rusted, I don't mean like a little rust here and there but the thing is covered in rust. So much of their equipment has been left behind as they run. The Russians are quickly replacing the Americans as the number one supplier of the Ukrainians. Plus, there is some awesome gifts for Western intelligence to play with.

 

[Chadstroma]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

 

[Chadstroma]

That's what I keep reading but can he possibly think that the rest of the world will sit back and allow that?

I don't think so, but the worrying about nukes.... if you follow these discussions to their logical conclusion, the way to avoid Putin pushing the button is everyone cave in and give him what he wants. We've seen these arguments made in here, by people that thought Ukraine had no chance. Now it looks like Russia has no chance, they are kidnapping their own drunk citizens to fight.

No one is provoking him. It's not like we are invading Russia.
He's taking things that don't belong to him. He's committing war crimes.
The threat of nukes is there. It definitely is, but the time to act against this guy is now.

I think this is his last hope bluff. The one thing that the West has shown in supplying Ukraine is that they do not want Ukraine to do anything in Russian territory. Hence the reluctance to supply them HIMARs etc that had the reach to counter Russian artillery which has been the one thing the Russians were able to use to make the progress they did in the east and south. The annexations are Putin hoping that he can hold these lands by the West pressuring Ukraine to stand down due to the threat of nuclear warfare. This partial mobilization will not stop Ukraine as they will even less trained, less equipped and less well lead than the pitiful Russian forces we have seen to this point. It is a big risk to take as the stakes are literally the highest they possibly could be but I don't think Putin will use nukes. There is no positive outcome for him if he does.

 

[culdeus]

That's what I keep reading but can he possibly think that the rest of the world will sit back and allow that?

I don't think so, but the worrying about nukes.... if you follow these discussions to their logical conclusion, the way to avoid Putin pushing the button is everyone cave in and give him what he wants. We've seen these arguments made in here, by people that thought Ukraine had no chance. Now it looks like Russia has no chance, they are kidnapping their own drunk citizens to fight.

No one is provoking him. It's not like we are invading Russia.
He's taking things that don't belong to him. He's committing war crimes.
The threat of nukes is there. It definitely is, but the time to act against this guy is now.

I think this is his last hope bluff. The one thing that the West has shown in supplying Ukraine is that they do not want Ukraine to do anything in Russian territory. Hence the reluctance to supply them HIMARs etc that had the reach to counter Russian artillery which has been the one thing the Russians were able to use to make the progress they did in the east and south. The annexations are Putin hoping that he can hold these lands by the West pressuring Ukraine to stand down due to the threat of nuclear warfare. This partial mobilization will not stop Ukraine as they will even less trained, less equipped and less well lead than the pitiful Russian forces we have seen to this point. It is a big risk to take as the stakes are literally the highest they possibly could be but I don't think Putin will use nukes. There is no positive outcome for him if he does.

I'm not sure Russia has much other strategy than shell civilian areas, advance into them and win hearts and minds (lol) then back out. HIMARS was so effective because it out ranged the artillery RU had and was exceptionally effective. Also effective was drone guided artillery. US was hesitant to deploy these since the capability wasn't super well known to our enemies. Not anymore.

The stuff I'm reading is they haven't had to even shoot much HIMARS stuff in recent days. If RU ever gets a true line up that stuff will rain down. It's mostly tank and infantry advances into very lean contact.

RU has nearly nothing tech wise to stop this but nukes. And vodka.

 

[Capella]

Most experts, for whatever they are worth, do not think Putin will use a nuke. So, that’s comforting, for now.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

RU has nearly nothing tech wise to stop this but nukes.

This is basically the only argument that they'll get used.

So it's either turn Russia into North Korea (completely isolated), or leave Ukraine.

 

[Orange&Blue]

You see stuff and don't know if it's true, but I giggled today at the reports about Russia comms. The ru soldiers are going on social media in the hopes their followers call in air support for them.

This has been one of, if not the most egregious parts of the war for them. Using 20 year old tech to fight a modern war against an adversary that has access to US tech is going to end badly for you.

It's been basically like having a cheat code. The only thing Russia has that seems to work are iranian drones.

The other fun part of the Ukraine strategy which was proposed by the US is to always allow for a corridor of escape that seems to make sense. This prevents having to deal with a lot of POW and you can just pick apart the equipment instead.

Not anymore. They've started to jam those drones and they've been falling out of the sky.

 

[Orange&Blue]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

 

[Dezbelief]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

At the beginning of the invasion the orcs were digging trenches at Chernobyl.

 

[higgins]

Russian nuclear sub with ‘doomsday weapon’ disappears in Arctic​

 

[Kal El]

Russian nuclear sub with ‘doomsday weapon’ disappears in Arctic​

Honestly, given the state of the rest of Russia and its military, there’s a decent chance it left and sunk somewhere

 

[higgins]

Russian nuclear sub with ‘doomsday weapon’ disappears in Arctic​

Honestly, given the state of the rest of Russia and its military, there’s a decent chance it left and sunk somewhere

Based on some of your posts, you seem to believe Putin is bluffing and seem eager to want to call him on it. Personally, I'm glad you're not in charge....

 

[Kal El]

Russian nuclear sub with ‘doomsday weapon’ disappears in Arctic​

Honestly, given the state of the rest of Russia and its military, there’s a decent chance it left and sunk somewhere

Based on some of your posts, you seem to believe Putin is bluffing and seem eager to want to call him on it. Personally, I'm glad you're not in charge....

He is bluffing, and has been for a long time. What’s he going to do, test a weapon that he claims is still 5 years from being ready(and is probably a lot longer away than that, since nobody is going to give them any tech)? He’s threatened to use nukes since this thing started, and has yet to deliver, because he’s a bully and a coward, and he knows the second he pushes that button, he’s doomed both himself and his nation to death. Sure, he might claim that he doesn’t care about a world without Russia, but he’s not going to throw his own life away. So he’ll keep up the bluster and attempted bullying, and his army will get beaten back to their pre-2014 borders, and there’s nothing he’s going to do about it.

 

[foxco]

I'll disagree Kal El, I think Putin is very capable of using nukes and if his army does get beaten back to pre-2014 borders I think he uses tactical nukes and dares NATO to start WWIII.

 

[Chadstroma]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

Who said anything about caring about his people?

As any general that is half way competent would explain to Putin and what you need to know is that combar effectiveness would diminish quickly for any units fighting under nuclear fallout. If a tactical nuke is used, unless out of sheer spite, the purpose is to blow a hole through defenses to pour your troops through and exploit. Beyond the fact that any offensive is going to be hard for the Russians to put together as is, the units they would send would suffer casualties simply going through the nuked area with all of them becoming sick and unusable as a combat unit. It isn't that they get sick years later with cancer... they would start to get radiation sickness nearly immediately.

 

[Orange&Blue]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

Who said anything about caring about his people?

As any general that is half way competent would explain to Putin and what you need to know is that combar effectiveness would diminish quickly for any units fighting under nuclear fallout. If a tactical nuke is used, unless out of sheer spite, the purpose is to blow a hole through defenses to pour your troops through and exploit. Beyond the fact that any offensive is going to be hard for the Russians to put together as is, the units they would send would suffer casualties simply going through the nuked area with all of them becoming sick and unusable as a combat unit. It isn't that they get sick years later with cancer... they would start to get radiation sickness nearly immediately.

I think Putin could certainly do it out of spite which is my point. If he nukes kyiv for example he won't care about the radiation.

 

[Chadstroma]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

Who said anything about caring about his people?

As any general that is half way competent would explain to Putin and what you need to know is that combar effectiveness would diminish quickly for any units fighting under nuclear fallout. If a tactical nuke is used, unless out of sheer spite, the purpose is to blow a hole through defenses to pour your troops through and exploit. Beyond the fact that any offensive is going to be hard for the Russians to put together as is, the units they would send would suffer casualties simply going through the nuked area with all of them becoming sick and unusable as a combat unit. It isn't that they get sick years later with cancer... they would start to get radiation sickness nearly immediately.

I think Putin could certainly do it out of spite which is my point. If he nukes kyiv for example he won't care about the radiation.

Your point was about him not caring about his people. The Ukrainians aren't his people. Seems like you are trying to move the goal post.

 

[Orange&Blue]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

Who said anything about caring about his people?

As any general that is half way competent would explain to Putin and what you need to know is that combar effectiveness would diminish quickly for any units fighting under nuclear fallout. If a tactical nuke is used, unless out of sheer spite, the purpose is to blow a hole through defenses to pour your troops through and exploit. Beyond the fact that any offensive is going to be hard for the Russians to put together as is, the units they would send would suffer casualties simply going through the nuked area with all of them becoming sick and unusable as a combat unit. It isn't that they get sick years later with cancer... they would start to get radiation sickness nearly immediately.

I think Putin could certainly do it out of spite which is my point. If he nukes kyiv for example he won't care about the radiation.

Your point was about him not caring about his people. The Ukrainians aren't his people. Seems like you are trying to move the goal post.

I don't think he cares about anyone but himself.

 

[Kal El]

I'll disagree Kal El, I think Putin is very capable of using nukes and if his army does get beaten back to pre-2014 borders I think he uses tactical nukes and dares NATO to start WWIII.

I’ll agree that he’s capable of using them, but as I said, if he opens that door, he and everything within a hundred miles of his location would rapidly become a radioactive parking lot. He’s already going down in the history books as the guy who invaded Ukraine and lost, all because of his own ego, I don’t think he wants to go down as the guy who, while losing one war, tried to start another and lot that I’ve 10x as badly.

 

[Chadstroma]

So now Putin has annexed these territories - what now? I can't believe we don't have the technology to just take him out.

We do.... but they still have technology to take us out (and the whole world).

Petraeus said that he would expect the US and NATO allies to launch and immediate retaliation to destroy all Russian forces in Ukraine included Crimea and sink the entire Black Sea Fleet. What the American and NATO forces did with the rest of their day after that first hour as over.... he did not elaborate.

One good point that I saw from a retired General on the Russians using tactical nukes in Ukraine is that the Russian forces are not equipped or property trained to fight in a radiated battlefield. It would not only risk the literal end of the world to use them but it would give no advantage to them on the battlefield as well. There is no positive the Russians can hope to accomplish by using nukes. It would be Putin saying "screw it, I messed up and will take down the whole world with me." as the decision he would have to make.

Lol @ first

You think Putin cares about his people getting radiation poisoning? Trying to apply logic to an illogical person backed in a corner isn't a good idea.

Who said anything about caring about his people?

As any general that is half way competent would explain to Putin and what you need to know is that combar effectiveness would diminish quickly for any units fighting under nuclear fallout. If a tactical nuke is used, unless out of sheer spite, the purpose is to blow a hole through defenses to pour your troops through and exploit. Beyond the fact that any offensive is going to be hard for the Russians to put together as is, the units they would send would suffer casualties simply going through the nuked area with all of them becoming sick and unusable as a combat unit. It isn't that they get sick years later with cancer... they would start to get radiation sickness nearly immediately.

I think Putin could certainly do it out of spite which is my point. If he nukes kyiv for example he won't care about the radiation.

Your point was about him not caring about his people. The Ukrainians aren't his people. Seems like you are trying to move the goal post.

I don't think he cares about anyone but himself.

I don't think that that is in dispute.

 

[Chadstroma]

I'll disagree Kal El, I think Putin is very capable of using nukes and if his army does get beaten back to pre-2014 borders I think he uses tactical nukes and dares NATO to start WWIII.

I’ll agree that he’s capable of using them, but as I said, if he opens that door, he and everything within a hundred miles of his location would rapidly become a radioactive parking lot. He’s already going down in the history books as the guy who invaded Ukraine and lost, all because of his own ego, I don’t think he wants to go down as the guy who, while losing one war, tried to start another and lot that I’ve 10x as badly.

You have to think that the Ukrainians beating the crap out of his Armed Forces being supplied with NOT THE STATE OF THE ART equipment by and large. There are no A1M2 Abrams, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Leclerc tanks on the battlefield. There are no F-35, F-22, F-15, F-16, Rafale, Typhoon, and heck Gripen's flying overhead. I think you get the jist.... then the front opens up from Norway (at least if not Finland and Sweden as well) in the north, The Baltic states and Poland in the northwestern, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey in the southwestern (though if there was a NATO country that I could see bow out and fail the alliance, it would be Turkey). They can not effectively fight the Ukrainians getting outdated M113 hand me downs and a crap load of MANPADs along with the Ukrainians being very innovative. Then you have all of NATO bearing down on you? Russia would collapse. BUT that is the scary part of it. NATO could do anything it wished to do militarily and Russia would not be able to stop them.... except for using more nukes. If one nuke is used... I can not see how it gets deescalated short of a Russian saying "F this" and putting a bullet in Putin's head.

I do think Putin is bluffing. It is the last hand he can play now. He has nothing else. The 300K they just called up will be nothing short of cannon fodder with no training, what little equipment they do get is rusted old crap and their officers are giving pep talks of "I live off of meds, so I don't care if you have a hernia or metal plate in your head.... I may or may not go with you to the front. I don't know." All he has left, all the West respects now is the nukes Russia has. But I do think he knows that if he uses them, he is done and that is all he cares about. I don't think he cares if Russia is a pile of ash or the world but he cares if he is in that ash or not.

 

[culdeus]

Gonna get kherson back real soon. Another huge push today

 

[Chadstroma]

“One of them fell to the ground at the sight of us and shouted ‘just don’t kill please, I want to live’,” said Oleksiy, describing the moment he came face to face with Russia’s forces. “His guys started shooting from behind his back, hitting him.”

Oleksiy, a 20-year-old from a small town in Luhansk whose name has been changed for safety reasons, is fighting on the frontline in Kherson as part of Ukraine’s fastest advances of the war so far.

 

[Chadstroma]

It isn't a joke anymore... Russia is the biggest military supplier. "Ukraine's now captured more Russian armour than it's been supplied by the West." per BBC News.

 

[culdeus]

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar is a site I tend to trust.

https://twitter.com/i/lists/1496975442372354053

This list is a reasonably well collated list of sites, not everything in this list is necessarily trustworthy.

Want to note that this in that Twitter supercut there is some very NSFW stuff

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Looks like Putin has engaged a new General, known for his brutality and loyalty to the Soviet Union. These people think Ukraine should not exist.

Who is Sergei Surovikin? Meet Putin's new top general for Ukraine

Vladimir Putin appointed Gen. Sergei Surovikin as Russia's first general commander of troops in Ukraine. He has proven himself willing to commit brutality against civilians.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Bumping now that the PSF forum has been nuked from orbit -- with a reminder this has to stay 100% no politics.