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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)

Yeah.  I have no idea what the Mauve Ninja Warrior story line has to do with the overall big picture arc that was front and center last week.  They better pull it together quick or get rid of it.  One or the other.  

Dolores, the original, isn't going anywhere so we'll just have to put up with it.

 
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bigmarc27 said:
It’s not as good, but it’s still pretty good. Parts are hit or miss for me.

William / history of the park story: A+

Bernard story: B +

Maeve: C +

Delores: F -
Click to expand...
I think my grades would be pretty close to this. maybe it's because I like Ed Harris, but the MIB scenes are always my favorite. Delores is boring, and they can't kill off Teddy fast enough.

Maeve's Magnificent Seven team might be interesting, but so far her story has really only been plodding along. let's see where it goes.

and also, more Floki!

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Also, much less nudies it seems to me. Almost none, other than that one penis shot a couple weeks ago.
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this is a negative for sure.  plenty of dude ### as well.  this season is dragging imho

 
tonydead said:
Yeah.  I have no idea what the Mauve Ninja Warrior story line has to do with the overall big picture arc that was front and center last week.  They better pull it together quick or get rid of it.  One or the other.  

Dolores, the original, isn't going anywhere so we'll just have to put up with it.
Click to expand...
She's learning her powers.  Now she knows that there is more than one "Westworld," and that the creators stole story ideas and personalities and copied them in the other worlds.  The Chinese madam was Mauve in every sense, she just hadn't been freed yet.  And when she tried to free her, she asked her to stop - because in becoming free she was afraid of losing her connection to her daughter.  Something that Mauve understood.  Mauve is going to do to anyone that hurts her daughter exactly what the Chinese madam did to the Shogun - and that was brutal in every sense of the world, void of any empathy or humanity and just brutal torture to death without remorse or pause.

If there are two of her now, there might be more.  And if there are possible "copies" of them, the search for her daughter is a deeper one than looking for one host.

On top of that, the Asian westworld was described by its creator as more gruesome.  It was a deeper experience, full of more danger.  It mimics the decent into the circles of hell that Dante wrote about.  If Westworld was the manifestation of the story, the first time we saw Westworld and the general nature of the main city was limbo for the hosts.  It led to the second circle for the humans of lust and the third circle of gluttony.  The deeper you got into the world the more lust and gluttony abounded - the deeper the maze.

We know Delos has something else going on that is causing massive problems somehow which is a representation of the 4th circle - greed. That was never more clear than the last episode where Mr. Delos was confined to the hell of his own mind being torn apart by his greed, finally dying in a hellish decent, all of which took place before the final moments of the season finale last year.  The 4th circle was occupied, in Dante's story, by the human representation of wealth created by greed - which is Mr. Delos. 

The season ended with Wrath, the 5th circle, as the hosts rose up and against their programing made the humans and even themselves suffer.  By the start of the second season we are making our way in and through the 6th circle of heresy as the hosts try to understand their place.  In doing so they are traveling to the 7th circle of Violence which is where we are now.

And they are all falling victim to the rings of the 7th circle at this point, Mauve and Delores being the two main parties that are descending.  While the Man in Black is actually ascending.  He is crawling out of the circles looking for the door.  He thinks.  Because the 8th circle of hell was an amphitheater - a stage.  And they are all on this Westworld stage at the moment.

I really think the more this show gets written out the more we are going to see that the writers are trying to tell a story of different descents into hell, whether it be by those that want to, those that are forced to, those that let events take them there, or those that go there to rescue someone there.  And then the story of how they climb out after facing satan.  And I don't think anyone has faced satan yet.  Though Bernard is probably getting close to bringing us there.  It's important to note that the scene in the first episode of the second season ended with seeing all the hosts dead in a lake floating just at the surface.  Save the fact that it was the old west, that scene is the representation of the final circle of hell - Dante's wasn't a fire pit by then.  It was a lake of ice with bodies frozen in it suffering their various tortures, with satan in the middle.  

Of course, the 9th circle is left for the sinners of treason.  Punished by a fallen angel who committed the most awful treason.  The only character we've seen so far that matches what Lucifer was in this story is Ford.

Anyway, that's my theory so far.  The Christian imagery and underlying stories has been fun as well.  I could be massively off base here too and I'm ok with that.  If it's better than this, I'll enjoy it even more.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
She's learning her powers.  Now she knows that there is more than one "Westworld," and that the creators stole story ideas and personalities and copied them in the other worlds.  The Chinese madam was Mauve in every sense, she just hadn't been freed yet.  And when she tried to free her, she asked her to stop - because in becoming free she was afraid of losing her connection to her daughter.  Something that Mauve understood.  Mauve is going to do to anyone that hurts her daughter exactly what the Chinese madam did to the Shogun - and that was brutal in every sense of the world, void of any empathy or humanity and just brutal torture to death without remorse or pause.

If there are two of her now, there might be more.  And if there are possible "copies" of them, the search for her daughter is a deeper one than looking for one host.

On top of that, the Asian westworld was described by its creator as more gruesome.  It was a deeper experience, full of more danger.  It mimics the decent into the circles of hell that Dante wrote about.  If Westworld was the manifestation of the story, the first time we saw Westworld and the general nature of the main city was limbo for the hosts.  It led to the second circle for the humans of lust and the third circle of gluttony.  The deeper you got into the world the more lust and gluttony abounded - the deeper the maze.

We know Delos has something else going on that is causing massive problems somehow which is a representation of the 4th circle - greed. That was never more clear than the last episode where Mr. Delos was confined to the hell of his own mind being torn apart by his greed, finally dying in a hellish decent, all of which took place before the final moments of the season finale last year.  The 4th circle was occupied, in Dante's story, by the human representation of wealth created by greed - which is Mr. Delos. 

The season ended with Wrath, the 5th circle, as the hosts rose up and against their programing made the humans and even themselves suffer.  By the start of the second season we are making our way in and through the 6th circle of heresy as the hosts try to understand their place.  In doing so they are traveling to the 7th circle of Violence which is where we are now.

And they are all falling victim to the rings of the 7th circle at this point, Mauve and Delores being the two main parties that are descending.  While the Man in Black is actually ascending.  He is crawling out of the circles looking for the door.  He thinks.  Because the 8th circle of hell was an amphitheater - a stage.  And they are all on this Westworld stage at the moment.

I really think the more this show gets written out the more we are going to see that the writers are trying to tell a story of different descents into hell, whether it be by those that want to, those that are forced to, those that let events take them there, or those that go there to rescue someone there.  And then the story of how they climb out after facing satan.  And I don't think anyone has faced satan yet.  Though Bernard is probably getting close to bringing us there.  It's important to note that the scene in the first episode of the second season ended with seeing all the hosts dead in a lake floating just at the surface.  Save the fact that it was the old west, that scene is the representation of the final circle of hell - Dante's wasn't a fire pit by then.  It was a lake of ice with bodies frozen in it suffering their various tortures, with satan in the middle.  

Of course, the 9th circle is left for the sinners of treason.  Punished by a fallen angel who committed the most awful treason.  The only character we've seen so far that matches what Lucifer was in this story is Ford.

Anyway, that's my theory so far.  The Christian imagery and underlying stories has been fun as well.  I could be massively off base here too and I'm ok with that.  If it's better than this, I'll enjoy it even more.
Click to expand...
No randoms where you work eh?

 
Yankee23Fan said:
She's learning her powers.  Now she knows that there is more than one "Westworld," and that the creators stole story ideas and personalities and copied them in the other worlds.  The Chinese madam was Mauve in every sense, she just hadn't been freed yet.  And when she tried to free her, she asked her to stop - because in becoming free she was afraid of losing her connection to her daughter.  Something that Mauve understood.  Mauve is going to do to anyone that hurts her daughter exactly what the Chinese madam did to the Shogun - and that was brutal in every sense of the world, void of any empathy or humanity and just brutal torture to death without remorse or pause.

If there are two of her now, there might be more.  And if there are possible "copies" of them, the search for her daughter is a deeper one than looking for one host.

On top of that, the Asian westworld was described by its creator as more gruesome.  It was a deeper experience, full of more danger.  It mimics the decent into the circles of hell that Dante wrote about.  If Westworld was the manifestation of the story, the first time we saw Westworld and the general nature of the main city was limbo for the hosts.  It led to the second circle for the humans of lust and the third circle of gluttony.  The deeper you got into the world the more lust and gluttony abounded - the deeper the maze.

We know Delos has something else going on that is causing massive problems somehow which is a representation of the 4th circle - greed. That was never more clear than the last episode where Mr. Delos was confined to the hell of his own mind being torn apart by his greed, finally dying in a hellish decent, all of which took place before the final moments of the season finale last year.  The 4th circle was occupied, in Dante's story, by the human representation of wealth created by greed - which is Mr. Delos. 

The season ended with Wrath, the 5th circle, as the hosts rose up and against their programing made the humans and even themselves suffer.  By the start of the second season we are making our way in and through the 6th circle of heresy as the hosts try to understand their place.  In doing so they are traveling to the 7th circle of Violence which is where we are now.

And they are all falling victim to the rings of the 7th circle at this point, Mauve and Delores being the two main parties that are descending.  While the Man in Black is actually ascending.  He is crawling out of the circles looking for the door.  He thinks.  Because the 8th circle of hell was an amphitheater - a stage.  And they are all on this Westworld stage at the moment.

I really think the more this show gets written out the more we are going to see that the writers are trying to tell a story of different descents into hell, whether it be by those that want to, those that are forced to, those that let events take them there, or those that go there to rescue someone there.  And then the story of how they climb out after facing satan.  And I don't think anyone has faced satan yet.  Though Bernard is probably getting close to bringing us there.  It's important to note that the scene in the first episode of the second season ended with seeing all the hosts dead in a lake floating just at the surface.  Save the fact that it was the old west, that scene is the representation of the final circle of hell - Dante's wasn't a fire pit by then.  It was a lake of ice with bodies frozen in it suffering their various tortures, with satan in the middle.  

Of course, the 9th circle is left for the sinners of treason.  Punished by a fallen angel who committed the most awful treason.  The only character we've seen so far that matches what Lucifer was in this story is Ford.

Anyway, that's my theory so far.  The Christian imagery and underlying stories has been fun as well.  I could be massively off base here too and I'm ok with that.  If it's better than this, I'll enjoy it even more.
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I don’t know whether any of this is right or wrong, but that’s one heck of a write up.  :thumbup:

 
I like Season 2 as well.  So far not as awesome as season 1, but still better than a lot of other drivel on TV.  If season 1 were an A, I'll give this season so far a B.

 
I was watching last night with closed captions on and for some reason, whenever Elsie was speaking it was denoted as "Hale"...  :shock:

 
I dig it. Even if you don't like the Maeve or Deloris timelines the opening and closing scenes were money. Plus MIB trucking along. 

 
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Finally caught up. I didn't mind the Shogun storyline, especially after having subtitles during the Japanese parts! :D  It was really well done and the fight scenes were great, especially the final one. Yeah they could have gotten the point across quicker but it was still pretty cool. I wouldn't be surprised to read that they patterned the ronin character after Toshiro Mifune from Kurosawa's films.

Back to the other stuff though:

What did Dolores do to Teddy? When they grabbed him at the end of the previous episode, the tablet said "Pairing with host" Did that just mean the tablet was pairing with Teddy or that they were pairing another host with Teddy? He seems to be aware of his previous self, and not too happy with his new self, so he wasn't completely wiped. Seems like something more than just boosting his levels.

Was that Sizemore laying dead on the ground when Elsie and Bernard enter the Mesa?

Stubbs really gets stepped on. I like the new guy's reaction to his name, Ashley. I can't help but think Stubbs is going to save the day somehow.

Ghost Nation seemed to  be trying to help Maeve there. Maybe they are there for more than protection for guests. Interesting how they had her dressed in black when she took the daughter away.

So I guess Dolores and crew manage to get Abernathy and Teddy winds up dead on the pile. Somehow the cradle gets destroyed but it wasn't from the train impact because Elsie and Bernard were in there at the time of impact. Destroying the Cradle somehow explains the dead, floating hosts but still no idea how Bernard winds up waking up at the beach. Still very few scenes with current day Bernard and he says almost nothing. If Ford is inside him, he's putting on a good confused act.

Hmmm, the black chick seemed to imply that they hadn't yet shipped the bodies from the lake over yet, but there was a dead, naked Teddy on the pile at the Mesa. Maybe Bernard saying that he killed them all might mean the ones in the Cradle world where he met Ford. But how the hell would they become real hosts? Could explain what the tech guy was saying when he said a third of them were like virgins, with no code at all.

Still enjoying the show! Hopefully not too much of Shogun world anymore. Doesn't seem like there would be.

 
1st couple episodes of S2 have been kinda boring, think I’m like 4 behind.  Does it get better?  Might bail if not

 
IMAX 3D said:
1st couple episodes of S2 have been kinda boring, think I’m like 4 behind.  Does it get better?  Might bail if not
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No, it gets worse.  Much worse.  Hopefully America's Got Talent will be back soon to give us something decent to watch on Sunday nights.

 
Holy jeebuz.   That makes up for the lull.

Seriously, that was not only movie level entertainment, action, plot, characters... it was GOOD movie level filmmaking.  Just awesome.

One of the best individual episodes of TV I've ever seen.  I'm floored... and loved some of the action nods toward the beginning/middle where the western vs. modern fights had a decided original Westworld vibe (at least I felt that way).

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Probably the best episode of the entire show. 
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I have no problems saying I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I spent half the show playing Clash royale. Is Hopkins programmed into bernard to tell him what to do. 

Why didnt delores kill Maeve even though she knows how strong she is. 

What exactly does Dolores father have in his head

How many time lines are we looking at

I'm fairly sure all of these things were answered tonight, I just dont know the answers to them. 

 
AcerFC said:
I have no problems saying I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I spent half the show playing Clash royale. Is Hopkins programmed into bernard to tell him what to do. 

Why didnt delores kill Maeve even though she knows how strong she is. 

What exactly does Dolores father have in his head

How many time lines are we looking at

I'm fairly sure all of these things were answered tonight, I just dont know the answers to them. 
Click to expand...
While there are lots of flashbacks to previous times, there are 2 basic timelines that have been coming together over the course of the season. One that started right after the massacre of season 1, with Bernard finding Elsie, going into the Cradle to when he shuts down the system and smashed the control unit. The next one begins with Bernard waking up at the beach, with all the floating dead hosts where he said "I killed them all" to when Charlotte just got the info out of him telling them where the Abernathy unit is. How he gets from shutting down the system to waking up at the beach is where the stories will connect. Ford merged himself into Bernard but there's still no telling if he is still inside Bernard when he wakes up at the beach.

 
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AcerFC said:
I have no problems saying I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I spent half the show playing Clash royale. Is Hopkins programmed into bernard to tell him what to do. 

Why didnt delores kill Maeve even though she knows how strong she is. 

What exactly does Dolores father have in his head

How many time lines are we looking at

I'm fairly sure all of these things were answered tonight, I just dont know the answers to them. 
Click to expand...
Hopkins' consciousness is now inserted into Bernard in a similar manner to how James Delos was trying to be immortal, but instead of Ford just trying to be himself, he knows he can't because the ability isn't there yet, but he can be a parasite, albeit with a ton more power and recognition.  Which might be the key at the end - he recognizes what he is whereas as Delos didn't and once his fidelity tests were failing it was a steep decline.

I'm betting she didn't kill Maeve because they are the same "person."  They are same the awoken creation, just different sides of the personality.  If we want to believe that Ford is controlling everything still, then it clearly wasn't part of her programming and Ford needs Maeve alive.  

In his head was the control data key for what appears to be the super secret vault in Section 16 grid 4 where it is likely that Delos is storing all the data on the humans that they have collected since the park opened - the future of humanity.  Most likely there are even bodies there of "hosts" waiting to have the full consciousness of a human uploaded into them as soon as Delos can perfect the fidelity of the hookup - think rich powerful people in stasis waiting for their immortality.  With the Cradle now destroyed there is no backup system for the hosts and once the key is used to open, and presumably destroy that data storage, then there is no backup for the humans - they are functionally one in the same.

At least 2 - though one of them splits into two parts.

_____________________

A ton of moving pieces in this episode and all were amazing.  Anthony Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright were beyond magnificent. 

All those scenes of Delores and Bernard in the room together we thought since the beginning was Bernard programming her for Ford and for whatever deep game that Arnold was playing - we thought.  Except it wasn't that at all.  While the lead scientists were trying to perfect the fidelity of James Delos, and failing, Ford had Delores do the same to Bernard - over dozens of clones and many years, until his Fidelity to the core of Arnold could finally trick the one host that knew Bernard better than anyone because she spent the most time with him and remembered every single thing he did and said.  Which is no small little head nod to the grand scheme of the park - the hosts record and assimilate every single thing the humans in the park did and said.  The experiences of every human is recorded into the hosts central core.  On the surface, it's to make the experience better - that is the reason Elon Musk's wife was able to seduce the ranger into his death, not because he was stupid or a cliche' guy with gun, but because it was the culmination of everything she learned about human men until that point.  She blatantly told him she was going to kill him and how by telling him her programming and it still didn't matter - he still suffered the same failings that all men do in this world.

The scene of Bernard finally realizing the curse that Ford gave him - they never had any free will only the illusion of it. That is the grand question that humans face in the Christian theological paradox of the religion.  If God is all powerful then He has to control everything, but we are taught that we have free will.  Yet if He knows how everything is going to play out, is that still free will or just the illusion of it.  The fact that Bernard has come to at least an acknowledgment of that question and the possible "bad" answer is akin to Eve eating the forbidden fruit in a way - he now has knowledge of good and evil.  The fact that Ford enters him in a theatrical way no different than the Spirit of God enters a Christian is another dark callback to the religious nature of the story.

I still think Ford isn't God though.  He's playing God, sure.  But everything he has done has made him more Satan then God. Although that could be the overall story arc as well - if everything we see in this world is real - the good and the bad - how different are God and Satan really.  It's not an old question.  

The Ghost Nation episode next week might be even more important.  The coming scenes seem to indicate that there is a possibility that at least the leader is, and may always have been, "awake," and if so the possibilities there are amazing as well.  

And then there is Section 16 grid 4.  Proverbs 16:4 is " The Lord has made all things for Himself, yes even the wicked for the day of judgment."  Which is a great theme for what is happening.  But, then there is Psalm 16:4 - "The sorrows of those who chase other gods shall multiply, and I shall not speak their name with my lips."  Which could mean that Ford has given up on humanity for their quest to "be themselves" in the park and all they are, really, is evil sick and vile.  So he is working towards their elimination in this new game.  

Except then you can look at Matthew 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given except the sign of Jonas."  This was Christ speaking.  The sign of Jonas/Jonah is usually referred back to the apparent death of Jonah and his coming back to tell the world of what happened to him.  He was in the proverbial belly of hell - another connection to the spiral into and out of hell that is playing out here - and was brought out to live anew.  Which might be the story of the Man in Black.

Revelation 16:4 is the 3rd angel pouring out the rivers and fountains and turning them into blood - all the fresh drinking water part of the judgment - the very essence of life being turned into sacrificial blood.  No coincidence that the most powerful scene to date is a lake full of dead bodies.

A lot of the 16:4 parts of the bible can fit into the story somehow - question is, which one.

I love this show.

 
jamny said:
While there are lots of flashbacks to previous times, there are 2 basic timelines that have been coming together over the course of the season. One that started right after the massacre of season 1, with Bernard finding Elsie, going into the Cradle to when he shuts down the system and smashed the control unit. The next one begins with Bernard waking up at the beach, with all the floating dead hosts where he said "I killed them all" to when Charlotte just got the info out of him telling them where the Abernathy unit is. How he gets from shutting down the system to waking up at the beach is where the stories will connect. Ford merged himself into Bernard but there's still no telling if he is still inside Bernard when he wakes up at the beach.
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:lmao:

so, so wrong

Or wait, maybe there's a 3rd basic 'timeline' that will show how he gets from shutting down the system to waking up on the beach ... or maybe they'll need more than one 'timeline'

:wall:

See: missing dollar riddle & Monte Hall problem

Timeline:  a linear representation of important events in the order in which they occurred

Just because they're telling the story in a non-linear manner does not mean there are multiple timelines.

 
kupcho1 said:
:lmao:

so, so wrong

Or wait, maybe there's a 3rd basic 'timeline' that will show how he gets from shutting down the system to waking up on the beach ... or maybe they'll need more than one 'timeline'

:wall:

See: missing dollar riddle & Monte Hall problem

Timeline:  a linear representation of important events in the order in which they occurred

Just because they're telling the story in a non-linear manner does not mean there are multiple timelines.
Click to expand...
Yes, timelines is used for lack of a better term here. I thought most everyone is aware that it is a single story told in a non-linear way. When Acer asked about timelines, I'm guessing he was aware of it as well. 
A quick Google search shows that it seems to be a common way to express the show's different stories.

 
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Yankee23Fan said:
Hopkins' consciousness is now inserted into Bernard in a similar manner to how James Delos was trying to be immortal, but instead of Ford just trying to be himself, he knows he can't because the ability isn't there yet, but he can be a parasite, albeit with a ton more power and recognition.  Which might be the key at the end - he recognizes what he is whereas as Delos didn't and once his fidelity tests were failing it was a steep decline.

I'm betting she didn't kill Maeve because they are the same "person."  They are same the awoken creation, just different sides of the personality.  If we want to believe that Ford is controlling everything still, then it clearly wasn't part of her programming and Ford needs Maeve alive.  

In his head was the control data key for what appears to be the super secret vault in Section 16 grid 4 where it is likely that Delos is storing all the data on the humans that they have collected since the park opened - the future of humanity.  Most likely there are even bodies there of "hosts" waiting to have the full consciousness of a human uploaded into them as soon as Delos can perfect the fidelity of the hookup - think rich powerful people in stasis waiting for their immortality.  With the Cradle now destroyed there is no backup system for the hosts and once the key is used to open, and presumably destroy that data storage, then there is no backup for the humans - they are functionally one in the same.

At least 2 - though one of them splits into two parts.

_____________________

A ton of moving pieces in this episode and all were amazing.  Anthony Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright were beyond magnificent. 

All those scenes of Delores and Bernard in the room together we thought since the beginning was Bernard programming her for Ford and for whatever deep game that Arnold was playing - we thought.  Except it wasn't that at all.  While the lead scientists were trying to perfect the fidelity of James Delos, and failing, Ford had Delores do the same to Bernard - over dozens of clones and many years, until his Fidelity to the core of Arnold could finally trick the one host that knew Bernard better than anyone because she spent the most time with him and remembered every single thing he did and said.  Which is no small little head nod to the grand scheme of the park - the hosts record and assimilate every single thing the humans in the park did and said.  The experiences of every human is recorded into the hosts central core.  On the surface, it's to make the experience better - that is the reason Elon Musk's wife was able to seduce the ranger into his death, not because he was stupid or a cliche' guy with gun, but because it was the culmination of everything she learned about human men until that point.  She blatantly told him she was going to kill him and how by telling him her programming and it still didn't matter - he still suffered the same failings that all men do in this world.

The scene of Bernard finally realizing the curse that Ford gave him - they never had any free will only the illusion of it. That is the grand question that humans face in the Christian theological paradox of the religion.  If God is all powerful then He has to control everything, but we are taught that we have free will.  Yet if He knows how everything is going to play out, is that still free will or just the illusion of it.  The fact that Bernard has come to at least an acknowledgment of that question and the possible "bad" answer is akin to Eve eating the forbidden fruit in a way - he now has knowledge of good and evil.  The fact that Ford enters him in a theatrical way no different than the Spirit of God enters a Christian is another dark callback to the religious nature of the story.

I still think Ford isn't God though.  He's playing God, sure.  But everything he has done has made him more Satan then God. Although that could be the overall story arc as well - if everything we see in this world is real - the good and the bad - how different are God and Satan really.  It's not an old question.  

The Ghost Nation episode next week might be even more important.  The coming scenes seem to indicate that there is a possibility that at least the leader is, and may always have been, "awake," and if so the possibilities there are amazing as well.  

And then there is Section 16 grid 4.  Proverbs 16:4 is " The Lord has made all things for Himself, yes even the wicked for the day of judgment."  Which is a great theme for what is happening.  But, then there is Psalm 16:4 - "The sorrows of those who chase other gods shall multiply, and I shall not speak their name with my lips."  Which could mean that Ford has given up on humanity for their quest to "be themselves" in the park and all they are, really, is evil sick and vile.  So he is working towards their elimination in this new game.  

Except then you can look at Matthew 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given except the sign of Jonas."  This was Christ speaking.  The sign of Jonas/Jonah is usually referred back to the apparent death of Jonah and his coming back to tell the world of what happened to him.  He was in the proverbial belly of hell - another connection to the spiral into and out of hell that is playing out here - and was brought out to live anew.  Which might be the story of the Man in Black.

Revelation 16:4 is the 3rd angel pouring out the rivers and fountains and turning them into blood - all the fresh drinking water part of the judgment - the very essence of life being turned into sacrificial blood.  No coincidence that the most powerful scene to date is a lake full of dead bodies.

A lot of the 16:4 parts of the bible can fit into the story somehow - question is, which one.

I love this show.
Click to expand...
Holy ####

No way I am thinking this much when watching a TV show. Kudos my friend.

And thanks

 
Freaking awesome.

I liked how after Bernard comes out of the Cradle they first show Ford as a reflection in the glass making you wonder if he's just inside Bernard's head.  Then he's shown behind him and walking with him making you think he somehow escaped the Cradle, maybe as a host.  Then when Bernard picks up the gun and starts shooting, between flashes it switched between Bernard to Ford shown shooting the gun making it clear that Ford is now inside Bernard/Arnold.  Absolutely magnificent. (Bernard still has a copy of Ford in his pocket too btw.)

Same with Doloris's consciousness.  You keep wondering if she is really free like Ford says because she is still pandering and goo goo ga ga when talking to her father.  In the scene with Maeve she tells her that "the children they gave us where just ropes to tie us down" and you are thinking; wait you just did the same thing with your father.   But then she is shown holding a host brain (and data key) which she obviously just got done cutting out of her father and you realize, yep she's free.  Absolutely magnificent.  (she lets Maeve go because "she made a promise" and she gave her the opportunity to make her own choice of being free or not instead of ending her suffering now.)

MIB still alive after getting shot that many times makes me think for the first time that maybe he is a host.

Clementine the whore getting shot in the gut was a nice touch.  As was blondie using seduction to blow up the Cradle.

 
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Yankee23Fan said:
.............

A lot of the 16:4 parts of the bible can fit into the story somehow - question is, which one.

I love this show.
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The fact that you can almost make any 16:4 applicable says something.  And with Ford playing god, last season's finale was titled the Bicameral Mind.  In the 1976 book The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes the author posited that humans developed the ability to think for themselves only after they were able to discern that the voices in our heads weren’t god.  That's when Doloris became self-aware and seemingly free from Ford.

 
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AcerFC said:
Holy ####

No way I am thinking this much when watching a TV show. Kudos my friend.

And thanks
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John 16:4  -  I have told you these things so that when they happen you will remember my warning.

Ezekiel 16:4 - On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean nor were you clothed.  (I personally really like this teaching as the allegory for the show.  The rest of this verse and its teaching could be the actual script).

Judges 16:4 is I believe the first appearance of Delilah  (Delores?)

Isaiah 16:4 - Let the fugitive stay with you and be their shelter from the destroyer, for the oppressor will come to an end and destruction will cease; the aggressor will vanish from the land.

Mark 16:4 - But when they looked up they saw that the stone that was very heavy had been rolled away.  (Which is also very good since they are going to "the door" that can't be opened unless they have the special key.)

And then there is Genesis 16:4 which is basically the creation of Islam.  In 16:4 Abraham's wife, in violation of what God told Abraham, convinced Abraham to have sex and conceive a child with her slave, Hagar.  They had Ishmael after the angel of the Lord promised them decendents upon decendents.  

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Hopkins' consciousness is now inserted into Bernard in a similar manner to how James Delos was trying to be immortal, but instead of Ford just trying to be himself, he knows he can't because the ability isn't there yet, but he can be a parasite, albeit with a ton more power and recognition.  Which might be the key at the end - he recognizes what he is whereas as Delos didn't and once his fidelity tests were failing it was a steep decline.

I'm betting she didn't kill Maeve because they are the same "person."  They are same the awoken creation, just different sides of the personality.  If we want to believe that Ford is controlling everything still, then it clearly wasn't part of her programming and Ford needs Maeve alive.  

In his head was the control data key for what appears to be the super secret vault in Section 16 grid 4 where it is likely that Delos is storing all the data on the humans that they have collected since the park opened - the future of humanity.  Most likely there are even bodies there of "hosts" waiting to have the full consciousness of a human uploaded into them as soon as Delos can perfect the fidelity of the hookup - think rich powerful people in stasis waiting for their immortality.  With the Cradle now destroyed there is no backup system for the hosts and once the key is used to open, and presumably destroy that data storage, then there is no backup for the humans - they are functionally one in the same.

At least 2 - though one of them splits into two parts.

_____________________

A ton of moving pieces in this episode and all were amazing.  Anthony Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright were beyond magnificent. 

All those scenes of Delores and Bernard in the room together we thought since the beginning was Bernard programming her for Ford and for whatever deep game that Arnold was playing - we thought.  Except it wasn't that at all.  While the lead scientists were trying to perfect the fidelity of James Delos, and failing, Ford had Delores do the same to Bernard - over dozens of clones and many years, until his Fidelity to the core of Arnold could finally trick the one host that knew Bernard better than anyone because she spent the most time with him and remembered every single thing he did and said.  Which is no small little head nod to the grand scheme of the park - the hosts record and assimilate every single thing the humans in the park did and said.  The experiences of every human is recorded into the hosts central core.  On the surface, it's to make the experience better - that is the reason Elon Musk's wife was able to seduce the ranger into his death, not because he was stupid or a cliche' guy with gun, but because it was the culmination of everything she learned about human men until that point.  She blatantly told him she was going to kill him and how by telling him her programming and it still didn't matter - he still suffered the same failings that all men do in this world.

The scene of Bernard finally realizing the curse that Ford gave him - they never had any free will only the illusion of it. That is the grand question that humans face in the Christian theological paradox of the religion.  If God is all powerful then He has to control everything, but we are taught that we have free will.  Yet if He knows how everything is going to play out, is that still free will or just the illusion of it.  The fact that Bernard has come to at least an acknowledgment of that question and the possible "bad" answer is akin to Eve eating the forbidden fruit in a way - he now has knowledge of good and evil.  The fact that Ford enters him in a theatrical way no different than the Spirit of God enters a Christian is another dark callback to the religious nature of the story.

I still think Ford isn't God though.  He's playing God, sure.  But everything he has done has made him more Satan then God. Although that could be the overall story arc as well - if everything we see in this world is real - the good and the bad - how different are God and Satan really.  It's not an old question.  

The Ghost Nation episode next week might be even more important.  The coming scenes seem to indicate that there is a possibility that at least the leader is, and may always have been, "awake," and if so the possibilities there are amazing as well.  

And then there is Section 16 grid 4.  Proverbs 16:4 is " The Lord has made all things for Himself, yes even the wicked for the day of judgment."  Which is a great theme for what is happening.  But, then there is Psalm 16:4 - "The sorrows of those who chase other gods shall multiply, and I shall not speak their name with my lips."  Which could mean that Ford has given up on humanity for their quest to "be themselves" in the park and all they are, really, is evil sick and vile.  So he is working towards their elimination in this new game.  

Except then you can look at Matthew 16:4 - "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given except the sign of Jonas."  This was Christ speaking.  The sign of Jonas/Jonah is usually referred back to the apparent death of Jonah and his coming back to tell the world of what happened to him.  He was in the proverbial belly of hell - another connection to the spiral into and out of hell that is playing out here - and was brought out to live anew.  Which might be the story of the Man in Black.

Revelation 16:4 is the 3rd angel pouring out the rivers and fountains and turning them into blood - all the fresh drinking water part of the judgment - the very essence of life being turned into sacrificial blood.  No coincidence that the most powerful scene to date is a lake full of dead bodies.

A lot of the 16:4 parts of the bible can fit into the story somehow - question is, which one.

I love this show.
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Very impressive take!!

 
Yankee23Fan said:
In his head was the control data key for what appears to be the super secret vault in Section 16 grid 4 where it is likely that Delos is storing all the data on the humans that they have collected since the park opened - the future of humanity.  Most likely there are even bodies there of "hosts" waiting to have the full consciousness of a human uploaded into them as soon as Delos can perfect the fidelity of the hookup - think rich powerful people in stasis waiting for their immortality.  With the Cradle now destroyed there is no backup system for the hosts and once the key is used to open, and presumably destroy that data storage, then there is no backup for the humans - they are functionally one in the same.
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So what is the end game. Is this for rich people to live forever like that netflix show or is it just to have a group of bots pretending to be humans

Is this what Bernard was talking about when he said that the humans were the control group. Not sure I get why they have hosts ready to be rolled out once they have perfected their fidelity 

 
AcerFC said:
So what is the end game. Is this for rich people to live forever like that netflix show or is it just to have a group of bots pretending to be humans
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If the level of fidelity becomes essentially, and perhaps actually, one and the same, does it even matter? (which is my take on one of the, if not the, preeminent theme of the show. What is life, what is consciousness, and at what point does a robot acquire either/both... and/or are we no more than complex robots for whom those same questions pertain? 

 
AcerFC said:
So what is the end game. Is this for rich people to live forever like that netflix show or is it just to have a group of bots pretending to be humans

Is this what Bernard was talking about when he said that the humans were the control group. Not sure I get why they have hosts ready to be rolled out once they have perfected their fidelity 
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If we take the scene of younger William and James Delos at its core meaning - what Williams was telling James is that the park can be used as the incubator to perfect immortality.  At the core of any human story is the need for immortality - whether fiction or non fiction.  The desire to live forever somehow is one of the hallmarks of our eternal quest to understand our soul, or worship God, and so on.  Ford admitted this in agreeing with Bernard that the park isn't there to perfect and study the hosts and make them better in order to make the game more real - the park is there to study the humans and the hosts are the control group.

We have to assume that if James Delos was dying and tried to become immortal, other rich and powerful people did as well.  I think the living forever part has a different meaning right now though.  We saw Delos descend into hell when they tried to do it with his actual body and his actual mind and it didn't work - there wasn't enough to show fidelity to true James Delos.  Ford basically admits that in his scenes with Bernard.  So Ford came up with an alternative - symbiosis.  Ford can't be resurrected into his own body with just his own mind because it doesn't work yet - and the way Ford spoke, it will never work.  

But as a part of a host who has programmed into its core the entire collection of every experience of every host and human that was in the park, well, then that is something that can be stable (or at least we are shown for now that Ford thinks that).

 
tonydead said:
MIB still alive after getting shot that many times makes me think for the first time that maybe he is a host.
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I saw this differently, though who knows...

It seemed odd that the bots would be shooting to kill, and repeatedly just miss that target.  I thought, damn, maybe this STILL is just a game - and as MIB just got better and better at it, the skill level has been ramped up. Of course, how does that play into the "real life" carnage / damage / loss of life - but of course, who knows JUST who is "real" and who might be a part of the "game" and "script"

Or if these are neural realities but not actual blood and flesh, living them out in 3D realities.  And does that matter in the end as well, or is the perception the reality if taken to a true end with full fidelity along the way.

 
Something else worth noting in terms of free will, and the potential role of God and the apparent contradiction between free will and an all knowing god.

It's Chaos theory.

I can not predict what any one item might do / how it will behave.  The path of a drop of water rolling down a mountain, the behavior of a human being... individually, we have very little ability to know just the path either will take.

But, as a collective, as a group, we know almost exactly what will happen.

So, perhaps God truly allows each of us free will... but according to our base rules, more's, wiring (programming), when taken as a collective, we know the end result not of ONE person's behavior, but rather the sum total of us all.  So, God (or Ford, or whomever), might be able to both know the outcome, but also provide "free will"

Depending of course, on your definition of how free must one's will be, to truly be free?

 
Koya said:
I saw this differently, though who knows...

It seemed odd that the bots would be shooting to kill, and repeatedly just miss that target.  I thought, damn, maybe this STILL is just a game - and as MIB just got better and better at it, the skill level has been ramped up. Of course, how does that play into the "real life" carnage / damage / loss of life - but of course, who knows JUST who is "real" and who might be a part of the "game" and "script"

Or if these are neural realities but not actual blood and flesh, living them out in 3D realities.  And does that matter in the end as well, or is the perception the reality if taken to a true end with full fidelity along the way.
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You could be on to something if Ford absolutely wants William/MiB to get to the door.  Ford told him there was a new game just for him, but him dying in the middle of it wouldn't teach him the lesson that he is supposed to learn.  What ever happened to watching the story unfold as he would say.

 
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