Patriots being investigated after Colts game (1 Viewer)

[shader]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

They didn't even do anything! They were completely innocent. That's the point.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Well, instead of being lazy like the media and putting the burden of proof on a non scientist who is preparing for the SB why don't you run your own experiments. I will help you out with a starting point. I just ran the calculations to see what temp is needed to increase a ball from 11.5psi to 12.5psi. I assumed a starting temp of 68 degrees Fahrenheit and the calc shows that the "process" would need to increase the air temp inside the football to 88 degrees Fahrenheit. So maybe you could show how this is an impossibility under the most vigorous rubbing/scrubbing conditions.

FYI, for the salty haters saying that it would need to be higher than that because as soon as you stopped the process it would fall back to equilibrium fairly quickly I would suggest that the Patriots are likely contending that they take the psi immediately after the rubbing process and thus any fallback to equilibrium is the responsibility of the referees who likely receive a ball UNDER the specified 12.5.

And exactly what should I do to artificially raise the pressure of 12 balls all at once in the first place? Details, please. This is science after all.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

They didn't even do anything! They were completely innocent. That's the point.

Why, because Belichick said so? You do realize that guilty people always say they are innocent, right? And a lot of them are darn convincing.

Again, I don't think this story should have been the big deal it became, but it's hilarious how NE fans have taken Belichick's word as gospel after yesterday.

As for the NFL, their credibility sucks, too, so there is no good guy in this scenario.

 

[kyoun1e]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

You're kinda delusional at this point.

 

[shader]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

 

[The Kerminator]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

Who is this Bill Nye? Is he a science guy?

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

I think there is enough of a grey area.....plus they won by 40 so it obviously wasn't a factor.

 

[GoBirds]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So BB's shoot from the hip 2 day experiment carries more weight than a real scientists opinion.....don't know about that.

 

[ROCKET]

Bill Nye, NOOOOOOOOO. The Pats are screwed now.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

This should be evaluated via a Physics simulation.

Look at the deflation rate for the Colts set of 12 balls as one set of variables (understood that they may have been inflated to higher than 12.5 PSI but the decay curve of any deflation is still pertinent data from which to extrapolate).

Take 12 random balls and inflate them to 12.5 PSI in a controlled 70 degree temperature environment. Then "fondle" said balls as is typically done (note these are used balls so most of the fondling occurs prior to weigh in). Then expose them to the elements of ~ 50 degree and wet conditions.

You then have a set of 24 data points (Colts control group and new experimental group) from which Monte Carlo simulation can be performed and determine the probability of 1 given ball inflated to 12.5 PSI that would drop to ~ 10.5 PSI by the amount of elapsed time (~ 4 hours). Then one can determine the probability of 11 of the 12 Patriot balls yielding such outcome.

The "reasonable doubt" standard in our court system is about a 90% standard of confidence (note that it is not a "beyond a shadow of a doubt standard" which is closer to 100% confidence). Thus if the results of the above simulation yield a result that indicated that beyond a "reasonable doubt" that Pats' balls were doctored than "guilty", if not "not guilty".

Of course I doubt that Godell's investigation will do this instead an expensive outside lawyer, Ted Wells will investigate.

 

[The Kerminator]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So let me get this straight. NE fans take BBs word as gospel when he says they did their own little experiments. Challenges the media and fans to recreate those experiments to prove it to themselves. But when a "science guy" calls him on it we aren't to believe him.

 

[shader]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So BB's shoot from the hip 2 day experiment carries more weight than a real scientists opinion.....don't know about that.

Yes. That's how science should work. Opinions of scientists shouldn't be important.

If Nye did similar experiments as BB and the psi didn't change, then I'd listen.

But we have many, many people who are doing these experiments and watching the psi fall very quickly.

Personally I think BB went too far when he for into the "rubbing the footballs" thing, as that wasn't necessary. But again, all he was trying to prove is that many different things cause the psi to change.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

Here's a tip, when someone says something that the laws of physics say is impossible, you don't need to do experiments.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

Here's a tip, when someone says something that the laws of physics say is impossible, you don't need to do experiments.

What did Nye actually take exception to?

 

[shader]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So let me get this straight. NE fans take BBs word as gospel when he says they did their own little experiments. Challenges the media and fans to recreate those experiments to prove it to themselves. But when a "science guy" calls him on it we aren't to believe him.

Did Bill Nye do experiments to prove him wrong?

Is this what science has come to? We believe a "celebrity scientist" over the many people who have actually done experiments?

 

[shader]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

Here's a tip, when someone says something that the laws of physics say is impossible, you don't need to do experiments.

What would that be?

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

I think there is enough of a grey area.....plus they won by 40 so it obviously wasn't a factor.

What are you talking about???

2 independent firms and the NFL aren't going to risk their credibility and livelihood to cover up a crime for someone they (private firms at least) have no connection to. The fact that you are arguing this is insane...

Let it go, if the Pats broke the rules we will hear. If they did something borderline the numbers will show that. That's the point of hiring not 1 but 2 private groups to figure this out. Even the guys who are definitely are hoping and still think the Pats did something wrong aren't siding with you here.

 

[The Kerminator]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So BB's shoot from the hip 2 day experiment carries more weight than a real scientists opinion.....don't know about that.

Yes. That's how science should work. Opinions of scientists shouldn't be important.

If Nye did similar experiments as BB and the psi didn't change, then I'd listen.

But we have many, many people who are doing these experiments and watching the psi fall very quickly.

Personally I think BB went too far when he for into the "rubbing the footballs" thing, as that wasn't necessary. But again, all he was trying to prove is that many different things cause the psi to change.

Pretty sure that NASA isn't hiring too many football coaches to design their rocket ships.

 

[Slider]

Lol at "salty haters" being applied to anyone who doesn't think they're completely innocent. Talk about delusional...

 

[shader]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So BB's shoot from the hip 2 day experiment carries more weight than a real scientists opinion.....don't know about that.

Yes. That's how science should work. Opinions of scientists shouldn't be important.If Nye did similar experiments as BB and the psi didn't change, then I'd listen.

But we have many, many people who are doing these experiments and watching the psi fall very quickly.

Personally I think BB went too far when he for into the "rubbing the footballs" thing, as that wasn't necessary. But again, all he was trying to prove is that many different things cause the psi to change.

Pretty sure that NASA isn't hiring too many football coaches to design their rocket ships.

Pretty sure nasa scientists don't just give their opinions on how a rocket ship should be designed either. They probably do a little, you know, science.

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

I think there is enough of a grey area.....plus they won by 40 so it obviously wasn't a factor.

What are you talking about???2 independent firms and the NFL aren't going to risk their credibility and livelihood to cover up a crime for someone they (private firms at least) have no connection to. The fact that you are arguing this is insane...

Let it go, if the Pats broke the rules we will hear. If they did something borderline the numbers will show that. That's the point of hiring not 1 but 2 private groups to figure this out. Even the guys who are definitely are hoping and still think the Pats did something wrong aren't siding with you here.

The way you say things should happen and the way they have proceeded so far are 2 different things.

 

[Morton Muffley]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Well, instead of being lazy like the media and putting the burden of proof on a non scientist who is preparing for the SB why don't you run your own experiments. I will help you out with a starting point. I just ran the calculations to see what temp is needed to increase a ball from 11.5psi to 12.5psi. I assumed a starting temp of 68 degrees Fahrenheit and the calc shows that the "process" would need to increase the air temp inside the football to 88 degrees Fahrenheit. So maybe you could show how this is an impossibility under the most vigorous rubbing/scrubbing conditions.

FYI, for the salty haters saying that it would need to be higher than that because as soon as you stopped the process it would fall back to equilibrium fairly quickly I would suggest that the Patriots are likely contending that they take the psi immediately after the rubbing process and thus any fallback to equilibrium is the responsibility of the referees who likely receive a ball UNDER the specified 12.5.

And exactly what should I do to artificially raise the pressure of 12 balls all at once in the first place? Details, please. This is science after all.

Well that is the experiment part isn't then? It you asking for the answer is the lazy part isn't it. Think of this like a scientist: can I disprove BB's claim by performing all sorts of rubbing tasks NONE of which reproduce the desired effect. If the answer is that there are no reasonable friction activities performed on the outside of the ball that would raise the internal ball temp by 20 degrees then you win! It really is that easy, but it will require you toy 'know actually DO something!

Oh, and given that yesterday's presser is NOT gonna end this investigation you can be sure that BB is likely gonna have to show.the NFL his process and that the forensics team will be seeing if they can reproduce that 1psi inflation. So I guess you could wait for someone else to do the work too. But really those are your two choice because no matter what. BB said yesterday you would have had more questions, right? I mean no matter how detailed he was about describing it you would still be able to find unanswered questions (how long are the bristles on the brushes? Horsehair or synthetic? How big are the hands of the people scrubbing and have any of them just come from the sauna?)

 

[GoBirds]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

So let me get this straight. NE fans take BBs word as gospel when he says they did their own little experiments. Challenges the media and fans to recreate those experiments to prove it to themselves. But when a "science guy" calls him on it we aren't to believe him.

Did Bill Nye do experiments to prove him wrong? Is this what science has come to? We believe a "celebrity scientist" over the many people who have actually done experiments?

Hmm let's see a celebrity scientist vs the accused football coach. Common sense.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

 

[ROCKET]

I think the league should just use all the historical data they have gathered over the years regarding ball PSI and what impact game/atmospheric conditions have on it. They no doubt have tested balls in the past before, during and after games? This could be all settled when they compare the data to what BB is claiming. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days I would think?

In all seriousness this to me is the problem with this league. They are so devoid of common sense and credibility it is a joke.

If you were going to implement rules for PSI then why wouldn't you research the effects of weather long before now?

All this tells me is nobody really cared. If that is the case why even have the rule? Why wouldn't you have data in place that supports the enforcement of rules that you are trying to enforce? Nope, we'll just wait for something like this to happen and wing it afterwards. What a joke.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

True. Belichick needs to show his work first. His word is not showing his work. Unless you're a Patriots fan.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

I think there is enough of a grey area.....plus they won by 40 so it obviously wasn't a factor.

What are you talking about???2 independent firms and the NFL aren't going to risk their credibility and livelihood to cover up a crime for someone they (private firms at least) have no connection to. The fact that you are arguing this is insane...

Let it go, if the Pats broke the rules we will hear. If they did something borderline the numbers will show that. That's the point of hiring not 1 but 2 private groups to figure this out. Even the guys who are definitely are hoping and still think the Pats did something wrong aren't siding with you here.

The way you say things should happen and the way they have proceeded so far are 2 different things.

You mean the NFL hiring an independent law firm and an independent investigative firm and issuing a press release to that fact?

They probably won't release their results for a bit. Large investigations take time especially when you want the world to know you examined every possibility. That's common sense sporto.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

I don't want to do my own experiment. I want to replicate the Patriots'. As Bill told me I could do.

 

[ROCKET]

It's not like scientists ever disagree?

 

[Morton Muffley]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

They didn't even do anything! They were completely innocent. That's the point.

Why, because Belichick said so? You do realize that guilty people always say they are innocent, right? And a lot of them are darn convincing.

Again, I don't think this story should have been the big deal it became, but it's hilarious how NE fans have taken Belichick's word as gospel after yesterday.

As for the NFL, their credibility sucks, too, so there is no good guy in this scenario.

I don't think this is simply taking BB's word as gospel so much as it is seeing someone speak so adamantly about something that can be disproved and making the simple conclusion that if he is putting this much on the line then he must be pretty confident that what he is saying cannot be disproven. And since we assume that BB knows that the nfl investigators will get access to the prep process the only conclusion can be reached is that he is telling the truth. Well I guess you could assume that he is a recklessly gambling arrogant sociopath so now I do see why this is still an issue because a lot of the country does see him that way. Ok, on to 150 pages pre SB I suppose

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Again, we haven't heard numbers from the NFL (who knows if we actually will), but these questions aren't hard to come up with theories for:

1. The refs haven't come out and said much about the process. Maybe it is part of it that if the refs notice discrepancies they adjust the ball to be within range. Other teams have hinted they might have their's higher. Seems like Bill was saying that teams request the level that they want with in the range, but there is no follow up with teams after that to make 100% sure that happened. Seems more like an oversight with the league that is essentially in the refs hands pregame. Like I said we will see if more info about this comes out.

2. If you were listening, Bill attributed 1/2 of the the loss of psi of their balls to their process/their request to start at 12.5 psi and the other 1/2 to atmosphere. I think they said something on the lines of .6-1.0 psi from taking them outside for awhile. SO if the Colts like their's set at a higher psi and don't have the same process they go though it is reasonable to say that they did lose pressure being outside, but still were able to be in range. Like many of us said, there has been nothing said about the starting psi of the Colt balls and what they were at halftime.

3. Same reasoning applied to #2. What type of balls did they use at halftime, and did they start at a higher psi? Is it reported they didn't drop in psi AT ALL, or that they stayed in range, or is that part all speculation like just about everything else this week?

 

[((Morpheus))]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

Or you could look at the experiment performed by the Carnegie Mellon lab. Be careful though, they're based in Pittsburgh so the results may be biased.

 

[DropKick]

Just too many twists and turns and disinformation for me right now. I'll wait for the NFL to finish their investigation. That could come AFTER the SB as I could see their reasons for waiting.

Best possible outcome for NE is a problem in the pregame check... bad gauge or the balls not actually PSI tested.

Worst outcome is the investigation clarifies some points and yields some new information that refutes BB's claims. If he is lying, it seems he went way out on a limb yesterday.

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

I know at my job I could prosecuted for covering up or falsifying information. A lawyer could be disbarred. We'd have to hear from lawyer guys if they could be prosecuted for hiding or giving false information but they do have to follow ethical rules.

I think there is enough of a grey area.....plus they won by 40 so it obviously wasn't a factor.

What are you talking about???2 independent firms and the NFL aren't going to risk their credibility and livelihood to cover up a crime for someone they (private firms at least) have no connection to. The fact that you are arguing this is insane...

Let it go, if the Pats broke the rules we will hear. If they did something borderline the numbers will show that. That's the point of hiring not 1 but 2 private groups to figure this out. Even the guys who are definitely are hoping and still think the Pats did something wrong aren't siding with you here.

The way you say things should happen and the way they have proceeded so far are 2 different things.

You mean the NFL hiring an independent law firm and an independent investigative firm and issuing a press release to that fact?They probably won't release their results for a bit. Large investigations take time especially when you want the world to know you examined every possibility. That's common sense sporto.

You talking about the same NFL that never tried to research Ray Rice beating the piss out of his wife and did less research than the paparazzi? Don't hold your breath Einstein.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

Link to anything that he has done since Spygate that has crossed the line?

 

[ROCKET]

Compared to Goodell and the NFL BB has impeccable integrity. He has one proven indiscretion, how many do they have?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, the media's dislike of Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

FYP

 

[the moops]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

As opposed to the NFL' data?

 

[cmv5]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

So has bill Nye done experiments to disprove what he said? Or do we take his word because he's a "science expert".

Now, hear me out on this one. Is it possible that you come into this slightly biased? What would it take to get you to think that somebody from the Patriots altered the balls?

Consider this from a different perspective. You are saying that a scientist who has been studying situations like this as long as Belichick has been doing football and you are saying he is just coming out of left field with his opinion. Also, Belichick would know absolutely nothing about doing a controlled experiment without bias for starters.

Seriously, I wish you could take a step back and see just how there is nothing anybody could possibly say to you to. Sway your decision. You are in that political/religious/sports fan mode. This is more for furthering the discussion.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think the league should just use all the historical data they have gathered over the years regarding ball PSI and what impact game/atmospheric conditions have on it. They no doubt have tested balls in the past before, during and after games? This could be all settled when they compare the data to what BB is claiming. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days I would think?

In all seriousness this to me is the problem with this league. They are so devoid of common sense and credibility it is a joke.

If you were going to implement rules for PSI then why wouldn't you research the effects of weather long before now?

All this tells me is nobody really cared. If that is the case why even have the rule? Why wouldn't you have data in place that supports the enforcement of rules that you are trying to enforce? Nope, we'll just wait for something like this to happen and wing it afterwards. What a joke.

Well, not until teams start tattling on each other, then they sort of care I guess.

 

[randall146]

OverInflateGate:

If league statements and leaks are to be believed (big if), the Colts went into the AFC Championship concerned about ball pressure, spoke to the refs about it, and the refs measured both teams balls pre-game with a gauge. This happened in the ref's locker room, which I'd assume is kept at around 70 degrees.

How is it possible that the Colt's balls didn't lose pressure due to the at least 20 and as much as 40 degree temperature drop over more than 3 hours?

Nobody is disputing that pressure drops as temperature drops. Science and whatnot. And over the more than 3 hour game I don't believe there's any question that the balls would have reached equalibrium with the outside temperature.

Regardless of what did or didn't happen with the Patriots' balls, it is simply not possible that the Colts balls did not change pressure from early afternoon in a 70 degree room until early evening in a 40ish degree wet outdoors without some outside influence - what we can call "tampering".

It must be the case that either the refs did not measure pregame, and/or halftime, and/or postgame (meaning the NFL is lying) and/or the Colts, knowing they were making an issue about this, did something to counter the natural and inevitable effects of colder temperature, such as pre-inflate with cold air or inflate the balls during the game.

We have to ask why the NFL wouldn't be investigating the Colts now, knowing that their balls somehow escaped the laws of physics at the exact same time they knew they'd be accusing the Pats of wrongdoing.

The simplest explanation would be that the refs didn't really do a precise measurement before, during, or after the game. This seems to be confirmed by former refs and ballboys who say a casual squeeze was usually the inspection method of choice.

On the other hand, the Colts are not first-time offenders in trying to gain a competitive advantage by toeing the line, crossing it, or even trying to have it moved. For example, pumping in crowd noise in an attempt to artificially and illegally assist the Colts defense by making it harder for opposing offenses to communicate. Or, for example, whining to have pass-defense rules changed when they couldn't beat the best teams in the league under then current rules. Or, for example, manipulating the competitiveness of an entire league season by purposely losing in a shameless (yet successful) effort to win Andrew Luck, the media's heir-apparent to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

We should also recognize that the Colts' owner is a drug addled convict with such bad judgment that he would risk other people's lives driving on pain meds - an offense so serious that the league fined him $500,000 and suspended him for six games (a punishment harsher even than that sustained by Bill Belichick for Spygate). If he'd willingly risk killing others for drugs, he probably wouldn't be above tampering with footballs. Irsay's judgment, honesty, and motive are susceptible to question.

Given that sordid history we could be excused for assuming the Colts are up to something and demanding that they them prove their own innocence.

Yet, the NFL isn't above suspicion either. The NFL is the very league that allowed the Colts to engage in the various illegal shenanigans detailed above, that changed it's own rules to benefit the Colts' former golden boy (Manning), and watched happily as they tanked to earn the league's new golden boy (Luck). The NFL is the league that has pushed the media story of the "passing of the torch" from Manning and Brady to Luck, most intensely during the current playoffs.

And, the league certainly is no fan of the Patriots or Belichick. The league fined Belichick a record amount for a cameraman standing in the wrong place - out in the open rather than in an enclosed area - when filming another team's defensive signals. The league allowed the Patriots to dangle in the wind as that story grew out-of-control and the Pats were falsely of taping another team's walkthrough - despite a thorough investigation proving this not to be the case. And now, too, the league has allowed the allegations against the Pats to stand by dragging its feet on the "investigation" of how balls might deflate during a temperature drop - despite the league not caring in the least what the pressure is in a football, so long as it's stars - the quarterbacks - are happy.

The league also has suffered it's own self-inflicted PR wounds recently due to the mis-handling of serious incidents such as WhipSon-Gate, KillDog-Gate, and Knockthe#####OutInElevator-Gate, to name just a few. Certainly it would be in the league's interest to focus come down hard on the team fans love to hate for a perceived minor rule infraction.

Which leads to another question - could it be that the NFL allowed it's own agenda of "catching" the Patriots to hurt the purity of the AFC Championship? Could it be that the league instructed it's refs to force the Colts to play with artificially over-inflated balls? Could the league have tampered with the Colt's balls, re-inflating them for the second half instead of letting them acclimate to the cold air and deflate as naturally happens in every other cold weather game in league history?

The Patriots are the only party involved in this controversy that has openly addressed the matter, agreed to fully cooperate with others, and layed their cards on the table. It's time for the Colts and the NFL to come clean.

 

[DropKick]

I think the league should just use all the historical data they have gathered over the years regarding ball PSI and what impact game/atmospheric conditions have on it. They no doubt have tested balls in the past before, during and after games? This could be all settled when they compare the data to what BB is claiming. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days I would think?

In all seriousness this to me is the problem with this league. They are so devoid of common sense and credibility it is a joke.

If you were going to implement rules for PSI then why wouldn't you research the effects of weather long before now?

All this tells me is nobody really cared. If that is the case why even have the rule? Why wouldn't you have data in place that supports the enforcement of rules that you are trying to enforce? Nope, we'll just wait for something like this to happen and wing it afterwards. What a joke.

Nothing wrong with the rule... you need it. If you inspect/measure the balls before the game and when they go into play and they pass the "feel" test, did anyone have a reason to scrutinize the process to the degree that Walter White cooked Crystal Meth? There should be variations in PSI caused by atmospheric differences but I doubt they ever felt the difference in the ball was significant.

Consider the league reached a point where they allow both teams to supply their own balls and the history behind that.. Among other things, I'm looking forward to the league's clarification of their processes.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

2 camps battling here

camp 1 - I want the pats to be cleared and found innocent no matter the findings

camp 2 - I want the pats found to be guilty cheaters no matter the findings

hard to have a normal conversation between 2 such camps ...its like watching verbal tennis ...back and forth each trying to beat the other ...but this match will never end ...ever

 

[randall146]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Recreate this: Rub a ball, observe pressure increase. Put ball in cold temperatures, observe pressure decrease.

 

[shader]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

Still waiting on you to let me know what part of it goes against physics? Or are you saying that because you are a Bills fan and so you are biased?

 

[moleculo]

has anyone got a link to the text of Belichicks statement handy?

 

[The Kerminator]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

Link to anything that he has done since Spygate that has crossed the line?

So we are going to just ignore spygate when he claims they don't do anything that approaches the line? Didn't they get fined a small amount for that? He can claim he wasn't doing anything that anybody else wasn't doing. But that doesn't mean he wasn't crossing or approaching the line.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

Guys, Belichick said that poop is really chocolate.

He even did experiments!! He said so and he is known throughout the land as being very honest. He is not a scientist by any means...but experiments! Poop is chocolate!

Now this Bill Nye guy, with his fancy "education", claims that poop really isn't chocolate.

But has he done experiments to prove that?? I don't want his "scientist opinion" that poop and chocolate are different...that is worthless! Do the experiments Mr Nye! Also, he is a "celebrity scientist"...the worst kind! Bill Nye won't do experiments to show that poop is not chocolate. Belichick did, so that clearly settles it. Poop is chocolate! Experiments, not "opinions"! Science is for nerds!

 

[cmv5]

OverInflateGate:

If league statements and leaks are to be believed (big if), the Colts went into the AFC Championship concerned about ball pressure, spoke to the refs about it, and the refs measured both teams balls pre-game with a gauge. This happened in the ref's locker room, which I'd assume is kept at around 70 degrees.

How is it possible that the Colt's balls didn't lose pressure due to the at least 20 and as much as 40 degree temperature drop over more than 3 hours?

Nobody is disputing that pressure drops as temperature drops. Science and whatnot. And over the more than 3 hour game I don't believe there's any question that the balls would have reached equalibrium with the outside temperature.

Regardless of what did or didn't happen with the Patriots' balls, it is simply not possible that the Colts balls did not change pressure from early afternoon in a 70 degree room until early evening in a 40ish degree wet outdoors without some outside influence - what we can call "tampering".

It must be the case that either the refs did not measure pregame, and/or halftime, and/or postgame (meaning the NFL is lying) and/or the Colts, knowing they were making an issue about this, did something to counter the natural and inevitable effects of colder temperature, such as pre-inflate with cold air or inflate the balls during the game.

We have to ask why the NFL wouldn't be investigating the Colts now, knowing that their balls somehow escaped the laws of physics at the exact same time they knew they'd be accusing the Pats of wrongdoing.

The simplest explanation would be that the refs didn't really do a precise measurement before, during, or after the game. This seems to be confirmed by former refs and ballboys who say a casual squeeze was usually the inspection method of choice.

On the other hand, the Colts are not first-time offenders in trying to gain a competitive advantage by toeing the line, crossing it, or even trying to have it moved. For example, pumping in crowd noise in an attempt to artificially and illegally assist the Colts defense by making it harder for opposing offenses to communicate. Or, for example, whining to have pass-defense rules changed when they couldn't beat the best teams in the league under then current rules. Or, for example, manipulating the competitiveness of an entire league season by purposely losing in a shameless (yet successful) effort to win Andrew Luck, the media's heir-apparent to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

We should also recognize that the Colts' owner is a drug addled convict with such bad judgment that he would risk other people's lives driving on pain meds - an offense so serious that the league fined him $500,000 and suspended him for six games (a punishment harsher even than that sustained by Bill Belichick for Spygate). If he'd willingly risk killing others for drugs, he probably wouldn't be above tampering with footballs. Irsay's judgment, honesty, and motive are susceptible to question.

Given that sordid history we could be excused for assuming the Colts are up to something and demanding that they them prove their own innocence.

Yet, the NFL isn't above suspicion either. The NFL is the very league that allowed the Colts to engage in the various illegal shenanigans detailed above, that changed it's own rules to benefit the Colts' former golden boy (Manning), and watched happily as they tanked to earn the league's new golden boy (Luck). The NFL is the league that has pushed the media story of the "passing of the torch" from Manning and Brady to Luck, most intensely during the current playoffs.

And, the league certainly is no fan of the Patriots or Belichick. The league fined Belichick a record amount for a cameraman standing in the wrong place - out in the open rather than in an enclosed area - when filming another team's defensive signals. The league allowed the Patriots to dangle in the wind as that story grew out-of-control and the Pats were falsely of taping another team's walkthrough - despite a thorough investigation proving this not to be the case. And now, too, the league has allowed the allegations against the Pats to stand by dragging its feet on the "investigation" of how balls might deflate during a temperature drop - despite the league not caring in the least what the pressure is in a football, so long as it's stars - the quarterbacks - are happy.

The league also has suffered it's own self-inflicted PR wounds recently due to the mis-handling of serious incidents such as WhipSon-Gate, KillDog-Gate, and Knockthe#####OutInElevator-Gate, to name just a few. Certainly it would be in the league's interest to focus come down hard on the team fans love to hate for a perceived minor rule infraction.

Which leads to another question - could it be that the NFL allowed it's own agenda of "catching" the Patriots to hurt the purity of the AFC Championship? Could it be that the league instructed it's refs to force the Colts to play with artificially over-inflated balls? Could the league have tampered with the Colt's balls, re-inflating them for the second half instead of letting them acclimate to the cold air and deflate as naturally happens in every other cold weather game in league history?

The Patriots are the only party involved in this controversy that has openly addressed the matter, agreed to fully cooperate with others, and layed their cards on the table. It's time for the Colts and the NFL to come clean.

OR, the Colts balled stayed within the tolerances and did not drop 2 pounds below the tolerable limit.