Pats penalty by Goodell (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

I've been out and missed all this, but skimming the first however many pages . . .

- For whoever mentioned the Pats appealing and getting the penalty reduced, I do not believe they can appeal it. There is no union for the teams, only the players. The team has no one to take their case to. They are at the whims of the commish.

- As for Wade Wilson, the NFL rules of conduct are applied to all NFL employees, so coaches are treated like players. Wilson would have been suspended 4 games per rule as a player but an extra game was added because coaches are held to a higher standard (I know the last part seems weird given the Pats outcome).

- Belichick is signed at least through next year, although no one knows for how long as there is nothing official that has been released on the subject. But I know he is signed at least through the 2008 season. (Long story on that one, but you can take that to the bank.)

I suspect that this will make what was already a good 2007 Pats team even better. I read and saw interviews with many of their players and they are all fired up that people think they did not win games based on talent and that people are considering them frauds/cheaters. They all seem pumped up to show how good they are and are promising to show the world that it was no fluke that they won. So the Pats again get to play the no respect card.

How do you even post this with a straight face?

You dont think the Pats players are pissed that their coach thoroughly embarassed them and caused their accomplishments to be put in question? "They think we had to cheat to win, we'll show them!!" That is the attitude that it would seem the Pats players would take.

But they did cheat. Their accomplishments are in question (by some at least). Winning future games doesn't change the fact that they cheated in past games.Whatever, I suppose they can get fired up about that.

I dont know why I am responding because its wasted on you but you are equating what Bill Belichek did/authorized with EVERY player on the Patriots cheating?

No, obviously they didn't all know. It's impossible to tell how many knew. That still doesn't change the fact that the team cheated and they are part of the team. They benefited from the cheating, although I don't think it would be fair to call any of them individually cheaters.

 

[JohnnyU]

I like the punishment.

As a Patriot hater, I like it also

 

[switz]

As for what Jones clipped, it was my sentence containing "supposedly". He clipped what I said, then demanded a link to prove what I said. That's not really a tactic I feel like engaging him on, so I'm done there.

Tactic? Asking you to back up your allegations is now a tactic? Did you write Belichek's speech?If you had ANYTHING to back up that statement, you'd post it.

 

[bostonfred]

As for what Jones clipped, it was my sentence containing "supposedly". He clipped what I said, then demanded a link to prove what I said. That's not really a tactic I feel like engaging him on, so I'm done there.

Tactic? Asking you to back up your allegations is now a tactic? Did you write Belichek's speech?If you had ANYTHING to back up that statement, you'd post it.

lol

 

[Pat Patriot]

What seems silly to me as well are those that say the Pats got off easy because they have 2 first rounders so giving up 1 is no big deal. What does that have to do with anything? They made a nice trade to get SF's pick in 2008. How should that influence how they are treated in this scenario or in a discussion as to the severity of the penalty.

 

[fatness]

Weak ruling. Bump the Sheriff down a few pegs. Tough on players and assistant coaches, but light on SB winners.

Tough on blue collar, light on white collar.

 

[Ghost Rider]

What seems silly to me as well are those that say the Pats got off easy because they have 2 first rounders so giving up 1 is no big deal. What does that have to do with anything? They made a nice trade to get SF's pick in 2008. How should that influence how they are treated in this scenario or in a discussion as to the severity of the penalty.

I agree. That trade for SF's 1st round pick should have no barring on this case.

 

[jonessed]

You're welcome to join sides with him on this one if you'd like, but you're factually incorrect to say that I'm evading the question by providing the link. I don't expect much from Jones, but that's not usually your thing.

I don't know Jones's shtick or history. All I know is that you pulled out the "grownups" card, and I went I also know that Pats fans have had sort of a vested interest in normalizing this infraction in an effort to minimize the backlash put on their team. My suspicion is that it's likely true that other teams do this, but there really isn't any substantial evidence other than hearsay to indict them. We don't even know which teams to reference at this point. Regardless, all that matters is the irrefutable evidence that BB cheated to gain a tactical advantage and got caught. He got penalized appropriately, and it'll be nice when everyone can just move on and enjoy the games on Sunday.

He's pretty excitable about this. There's a couple of them. No big deal. I agree that there's a vested interest for Pats fans in normalizing this. And for people who dislike the Pats, there's a vested interest in casting doubt over whether the Patriots did things before the Jets game. In both cases, there's nothing more than hearsay. It's perfectly relevant to mention that, if we're going to lend credence to the hearsay on either side, we should lend credence to it on both. Of course, there's been substantially more news recently about allegations against the Pats doing this. But to be fair, it's hard to know whether that's because the Pats did this more often, or because other teams aren't breaking this supposed code of silence that was referenced by the Packers.

The Pats supposedly videotaped signals on more than one occasion. There are ten teams that supposedly did this in the past. That's not really debatable. What's debatable is whether those ten supposed teams actually did it, and whether the Pats actually videotaped defensive playcalls in the past. And while I won't disagree that there's more evidence for the latter, there's been substantial discussion by players and analysts about the former as well. I don't think this is a contentious statement.

As for what Jones clipped, it was my sentence containing "supposedly". He clipped what I said, then demanded a link to prove what I said. That's not really a tactic I feel like engaging him on, so I'm done there.

I didn't clip it. Go reread it. If you want to play the copout card then fine, but don't pin it on me. I quoted you in every single post. It was clipped by cobalt and I can't imagine he did it on purpose. You dodged my question and then when I called you out on it you decided to start making stuff up. Whatever, I suppose this doesn't shock me considering you are in backpedal mode.

 

[JohnnyU]

I personally feel it tarnishes what they've done under Belicheck a little bit. Simply because there will always be the questions of whether they did these sort of things during the playoffs/Super Bowls that they were in since he's been around (as teams they've faced in the past are already questioning this, i.e. the Eagles in 2005).I think the penalties are fairly harsh. But I do agree that a suspension would have been the harshest. In fact, suspending Belicheck for a game or two, and not allowing him even in the stadium would have sent a message.............

Suspending BB would have been the least harshest penalty. Trust me, losing the pick hurts worse than suspending that jack-a-r-s-e.

 

[BeachBums]

How does this "tarnish" and "put a question mark" on the Patriots and their previous SB victories?

Reactions and comments made by players on other teams make it obvious that this is not all that uncommon of an undertaking. The Pats are simply the first team, not to get caught, but to get fined. So knowing it has gone on previously, how does it tarnish past performances?

Well, it doesn't negate the SB wins, and it shouldn't. But I think it definitely tarnishes the team. This is a franchise that has built their reputation on simply executing better than anyone else in spite of not loading up with star players, mainly because their coaches are smarter and better tacticians than everyone else's. Doesn't the admission of cheating cast some doubt on that?

To some extent but like I have been saying ... this practice is common in the NFL and by many teams. It is simply a matter of degree. It is okay for a team to study an opponent's hand signals and listen in on play calling, just not to use a camera for that specific purpose? I didn't know that was a violation. Did you?

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Dolphins boasted that they knew what the Pats were going to do because they studied the audio and hand signals over the week before the game.

When the Pats lost that game I was thinking ... "smart move, the Pats got showed up on that one and I bet that never happens again". Why was that play-call "scouting" okay but not this one? What wasn't that called out as cheating by the NFL but this was?

Serious question - what is the EXACT rule that they broke. Would they get busted if they had a scout at the SD game in the stands with binoculars studying the signals for the game?

My big question is: Was this info used during the game, or was this being taped for analysis for a future game? IF it was used during the game - how??

Read the Jeremy Green article on ESPN (just went to ESPN.com and they're leading with Oden - how is this not bigger than that????). Teams routinely and perfectly within the rules send scouts (it's what a scout does) to the games of up-coming opponents who use binoculars to record (pen and paper, not on video) hand signals, formations, etc., etc. the week before. Scouts bring that information back write it up and coordinators use that information to game plan.

 

[cobalt_27]

You're welcome to join sides with him on this one if you'd like, but you're factually incorrect to say that I'm evading the question by providing the link. I don't expect much from Jones, but that's not usually your thing.

I don't know Jones's shtick or history. All I know is that you pulled out the "grownups" card, and I went I also know that Pats fans have had sort of a vested interest in normalizing this infraction in an effort to minimize the backlash put on their team. My suspicion is that it's likely true that other teams do this, but there really isn't any substantial evidence other than hearsay to indict them. We don't even know which teams to reference at this point. Regardless, all that matters is the irrefutable evidence that BB cheated to gain a tactical advantage and got caught. He got penalized appropriately, and it'll be nice when everyone can just move on and enjoy the games on Sunday.

He's pretty excitable about this. There's a couple of them. No big deal. I agree that there's a vested interest for Pats fans in normalizing this. And for people who dislike the Pats, there's a vested interest in casting doubt over whether the Patriots did things before the Jets game. In both cases, there's nothing more than hearsay. It's perfectly relevant to mention that, if we're going to lend credence to the hearsay on either side, we should lend credence to it on both. Of course, there's been substantially more news recently about allegations against the Pats doing this. But to be fair, it's hard to know whether that's because the Pats did this more often, or because other teams aren't breaking this supposed code of silence that was referenced by the Packers. The Pats supposedly videotaped signals on more than one occasion. There are ten teams that supposedly did this in the past. That's not really debatable. What's debatable is whether those ten supposed teams actually did it, and whether the Pats actually videotaped defensive playcalls in the past. And while I won't disagree that there's more evidence for the latter, there's been substantial discussion by players and analysts about the former as well. I don't think this is a contentious statement. As for what Jones clipped, it was my sentence containing "supposedly". He clipped what I said, then demanded a link to prove what I said. That's not really a tactic I feel like engaging him on, so I'm done there.

Got it. I don't know. I think what BB did is pretty smarmy and somewhat consistent with how I've viewed him in the past. While I don't think he committed the highest of crimes and misdemeanors here, I do think it's serious enough to warrant significant punishment. And, while I know there are Patriot haters who would've liked to have seen a massive suspension and reduction in draft picks...I sort of think the punishment met the crime. It's a big draft pick they have to relinquish (I don't care if they had another one; this is one less 1st rounder they get to use), and the $750k fine is not insignificant, either.I think the biggest thing is/was to establish a baseline penalty that, if you're another team, will act as a deterrent against engaging in this kind of a b.s. tactic. If it happens again, you can be sure that the penalty will be even stiffer. In my mind, it was a fascinating couple of days to see this all evolve and weigh all the issues surrounding it. But, at the end of the day, BB cheated, the legacy of the Pats is called into question, and they suffered all the consequences they earned by their head coach's decision. Time to move on.

 

[PatsFan23]

The Patriots will give up their first-round pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs. If they don't make the playoffs, they will surrender their second- and third-round picks.

So now that they've been exposed as a franchise with no integrity, what are the chances they tank the season to avoid making the playoffs, thereby keeping their first-rounder?

This could quite possibly be the stupidest post EVER on this board. Come back to reality will you please......

 

[BeachBums]

OH, let the defense have 1 player who wears a helmet with audio (Like the offense)

I'm pretty sure that the Competition Committee looked at this rule change in the offseason but eventually decided against it. I haven't seen the reasoning behind their decision.

The rule went to the competition committee and received 22 of the 24 votes necessary to approve it. The primary concern was how to implement a system in which there would be only one but always one defensive player on the field with speakers in their helmets. The obvious player to have the speakers would be the MLB, but with the number of substitutions on defense they couldn't agree on a system that would be simple and effective.

 

[cobalt_27]

I hate the city of Boston. I even hate the Rhode Island area too. People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut. Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there. That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division. If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand) People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid. The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own. Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours. Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions. Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights. Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season? It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

In summary: Success breeds contempt.

 

[bostonfred]

You're welcome to join sides with him on this one if you'd like, but you're factually incorrect to say that I'm evading the question by providing the link. I don't expect much from Jones, but that's not usually your thing.

I don't know Jones's shtick or history. All I know is that you pulled out the "grownups" card, and I went I also know that Pats fans have had sort of a vested interest in normalizing this infraction in an effort to minimize the backlash put on their team. My suspicion is that it's likely true that other teams do this, but there really isn't any substantial evidence other than hearsay to indict them. We don't even know which teams to reference at this point. Regardless, all that matters is the irrefutable evidence that BB cheated to gain a tactical advantage and got caught. He got penalized appropriately, and it'll be nice when everyone can just move on and enjoy the games on Sunday.

He's pretty excitable about this. There's a couple of them. No big deal. I agree that there's a vested interest for Pats fans in normalizing this. And for people who dislike the Pats, there's a vested interest in casting doubt over whether the Patriots did things before the Jets game. In both cases, there's nothing more than hearsay. It's perfectly relevant to mention that, if we're going to lend credence to the hearsay on either side, we should lend credence to it on both. Of course, there's been substantially more news recently about allegations against the Pats doing this. But to be fair, it's hard to know whether that's because the Pats did this more often, or because other teams aren't breaking this supposed code of silence that was referenced by the Packers. The Pats supposedly videotaped signals on more than one occasion. There are ten teams that supposedly did this in the past. That's not really debatable. What's debatable is whether those ten supposed teams actually did it, and whether the Pats actually videotaped defensive playcalls in the past. And while I won't disagree that there's more evidence for the latter, there's been substantial discussion by players and analysts about the former as well. I don't think this is a contentious statement. As for what Jones clipped, it was my sentence containing "supposedly". He clipped what I said, then demanded a link to prove what I said. That's not really a tactic I feel like engaging him on, so I'm done there.

Got it. I don't know. I think what BB did is pretty smarmy and somewhat consistent with how I've viewed him in the past. While I don't think he committed the highest of crimes and misdemeanors here, I do think it's serious enough to warrant significant punishment. And, while I know there are Patriot haters who would've liked to have seen a massive suspension and reduction in draft picks...I sort of think the punishment met the crime. It's a big draft pick they have to relinquish (I don't care if they had another one; this is one less 1st rounder they get to use), and the $750k fine is not insignificant, either.I think the biggest thing is/was to establish a baseline penalty that, if you're another team, will act as a deterrent against engaging in this kind of a b.s. tactic. If it happens again, you can be sure that the penalty will be even stiffer. In my mind, it was a fascinating couple of days to see this all evolve and weigh all the issues surrounding it. But, at the end of the day, BB cheated, the legacy of the Pats is called into question, and they suffered all the consequences they earned by their head coach's decision. Time to move on.

That about sums it up.

 

[jonessed]

I hate the city of Boston. I even hate the Rhode Island area too. People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut. Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there. That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division. If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand) People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid. The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own. Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours. Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions. Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights. Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season? It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

In summary: Success breeds contempt.

Meh... GG believes in doing anything for power and money. This is the way the world works in many cases and he offers some great advice in the FFA, but his moral compass is a bit off. He may dispute this and people may bash me because he is so popular, but he got dinged on the flip side of that coin and shows the scars.

 

[Pat Patriot]

I hate the city of Boston.

I even hate the Rhode Island area too.

People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut.

Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there.

That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division.

If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand)

People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid.

The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own.

Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours.

Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions.

Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights.

Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season?

It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

Except the Australia part. I have been there a couple of times and found the people awesome. Very friendly and approachable in bars. I was visiting a friend in Sydney and decided to visit Cairnes and Brisbane and she got on the phone and lined up free places for me to stay with her friends. They didnt know me. They said sure, no problem. Friend of yours is a friend of ours.

 

[cobalt_27]

I hate the city of Boston. I even hate the Rhode Island area too. People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut. Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there. That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division. If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand) People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid. The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own. Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours. Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions. Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights. Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season? It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

In summary: Success breeds contempt.

Meh... GG believes in doing anything for power and money. This is the way the world works in many cases and he offers some great advice in the FFA, but his moral compass is a bit off. He may dispute this and people may bash me because he is so popular, but he got dinged on the flip side of that coin and shows the scars.

I'm in the "meh" category when it comes to GG's posts. More often than not, brevity is a useful tool, and--as was the case here--he could've shortened that entire post down to three words--success breeds contempt. The rest is just .Still, his point is on target for a lot of the Pats haters here. They don't like the team because they're good and look for any reason to chop them down.

 

[HellToupee]

It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights.

never been to Baltimore , Philadelphia or Newark I guess

 

[The Ref]

I hate the city of Boston. I even hate the Rhode Island area too. People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut. Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there. That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division. If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand) People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid. The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own. Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours. Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions. Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights. Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season? It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

I hearby nominate GordonGekko as my personal favorite Boston Hater. I think he is a real jerk because of the way he feels about my hometown, but at least he does it with well thought out and well written venom. Next time your in my cesspool with street lights for a ball game, let me know and I'll buy you an over priced $8 Sam Adams after you pay $250 for a game ticket and $50 to Paaaark.

 

[crnerblitz]

I've been out and missed all this, but skimming the first however many pages . . .

- For whoever mentioned the Pats appealing and getting the penalty reduced, I do not believe they can appeal it. There is no union for the teams, only the players. The team has no one to take their case to. They are at the whims of the commish.

- As for Wade Wilson, the NFL rules of conduct are applied to all NFL employees, so coaches are treated like players. Wilson would have been suspended 4 games per rule as a player but an extra game was added because coaches are held to a higher standard (I know the last part seems weird given the Pats outcome).

- Belichick is signed at least through next year, although no one knows for how long as there is nothing official that has been released on the subject. But I know he is signed at least through the 2008 season. (Long story on that one, but you can take that to the bank.)

I suspect that this will make what was already a good 2007 Pats team even better. I read and saw interviews with many of their players and they are all fired up that people think they did not win games based on talent and that people are considering them frauds/cheaters. They all seem pumped up to show how good they are and are promising to show the world that it was no fluke that they won. So the Pats again get to play the no respect card.

How do you even post this with a straight face?

You dont think the Pats players are pissed that their coach thoroughly embarassed them and caused their accomplishments to be put in question? "They think we had to cheat to win, we'll show them!!" That is the attitude that it would seem the Pats players would take.

You don't think many of the players on the team, especially those who have been around for years, didn't know something about all of this? And I ask that of you, knowing full well that you have been an open-minded non-homer about this whole topic.

Really? You think I am a non-homer? EvilGrin once voted me the biggest homer on the board.I live in Philly now but grew up in Boston. I've been taking #### for 2 days from co-workers, housewives and other friends about how the Eagles can finally plan their parade because they were the real winners of SB 39.

I talked to my best friend back in Boston tonight and told him that I wanted to hear from Belichek, Kraft and Brady. Most of the interviews I have been seeing has been the defensive players. I do believe that they are unaware of what is happening. I honestly dont know what the offensive players work.

I used to scout when I was coaching High School ball and we would be able to decipher some of the other teams defensive signals while scouting them. When we brought the data back to the team, nobody asked whether we videotaped the game we were scouting or just took notes. I know HS is light years away from the NFL but I dont know what Brady knew.

I don't think players could be trusted to know except Brady.

I think that is part of the stigma that attaches here. What did Brady know and when did He know it? On first review it would seem that the information gathered is worthless unless you have someone on the field using proper application.Denny Green said that 95% of the time the info wouldn't be able to be used. However on the rare one or two times you did get to use the info it could equate to a 10 points as an advantage. Denny also said he had never seen nor heard of anyone he has worked with doing this. That aknowleges that it goes on, but not everyone is doing it.

 

[mad sweeney]

I hate the city of Boston. I even hate the Rhode Island area too. People there are just plain mean. I have traveled all over the world and I've met people from all ages and all cultures and from all backgrounds. Other than the general issue anger that gets distributed to all citizens of Australia and Korea, I don't think there is a place that has a higher concentration of just plain mean people than in the Boston area. And it's an ugly, dirty and generally worn down city. I've gone to Red Sox games when the Yankees are in town and there are times I think I'd just be safer in a place like Beirut. Sorry to all you Boston folks out there. And you Rhode Island folks. I'm sure you are good guys, but damn, there must be something in the water out there. That being said, I cannot believe the piss and vinegar directed at Patriots fans and Bill Belichick and Tom Brady here. I have nothing but respect for the Patriots and what they've done as an organization, I'll still have nothing but respect for them. And this is coming from someone who has no allegiances to the Patriots, to the area in which they play or to any other team in their division. If you win anything in life, people hate you. (Or if you are tourist in Boston, I'm pretty sure the residents there will hate you on general principles of which I still don't quite understand) People want to see winners fail, especially if those winners have been kicking the living crap out of your favorite local team for the past five years. Do any of you stop and think about how many of those trashy tabloid rags get sold at supermarkets across the country every single day. They sell like hotcakes. Regular people, particularly poor people, want to enjoy watching the beautiful and rich and famous fall flat on their behinds. We live in a culture where it becomes a media/pack of wolves orgy of information at light speed and video and sound and fury at anyone doing something stupid. The Patriots were "stupid" with this incident. But you have to take a step back and remember they are "stupid winners". Even if your team got hammered all the way to hell by Angry Bill and his Merry Band Of Paranoids, you can only point out the "stupid" part for so long until you accept that the New England NFL team has won a crap load of games. In real life, cheating only helps you incrementally. In a game of inches, sure, its a difference maker. But incremental improvement or advantages can't churn out three Super Bowl victories on it's own. Now that "stupid winners" have another reason to want to stick it in everyone's face. Call them cheaters if you like. Even call them stupid. Just don't forget to call them winners. And if you think the Patriots were stupid, and if they really cheated, how stupid were the teams and their coaches and their front offices for not stopping them after all this time? Nothing excuses cheating, but in a cutthroat environment like the NFL, you have to be able and willing to fight to keep what is yours. Angry Bill and the Pats got dinged. They got dinged hard or soft depending on what team you love and how bad they won or lost in the last five years. And that's ok. No one tells you that you can't love who you want to love, but I'm telling you it's pretty damn easy to hate a winner, even if you think they are cheaters, especially if you think they are cheaters. But when we are all dead, it's still going to say = New England Patriots, Super Bowl Champions. Some of you guys have taken this issue way too far. No one is picking up JFK's skull and brains off of a Dallas street. It's a camera that got pointed one way versus another. And this is coming from a guy who thinks the city of Boston is America's version of a cesspool with street lights. Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them. Or did any of you just realize most people don't give a flying crap who my hometown Raiders beat or don't beat this season? It's over. Fines are laid out. Draft picks are taken. Now try being indifferent for a change, it makes a world of difference. Too bad its only easy to do when your favorite team actually starts winning.

In summary: Success breeds contempt.

And cheating begets success.

 

[dparker713]

In the end, I think this will bite Goodell in the a## with the players. While the draft pick(s) and fine were steep, the lack of even a moderate suspension when he's dropped the hammer on a Pacman wont sit well with the players. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed like 4 games should have been the minimum, with 8 being more inline with Goodells previous rulings. The institutional penalty just shouldnt have been worse than the personal penalty to BB.

 

[NYCGangGreen]

So I heard that Mike Vick was just seen doing this :



He may even offer to pay part of the fine since he is no longer headline news @ the NFL until his sentencing.

 

[cantrell]

What a joke. Regardless they still keep one of their two 1st round picks and thats not even guarenteed (yeah Brady could get killed now that he doesn't know the D signals) if they miss the playoffs.

I thought Goodell would draw blood, this is just a hang nail.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

The Patriots will give up their first-round pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs. If they don't make the playoffs, they will surrender their second- and third-round picks.

So now that they've been exposed as a franchise with no integrity, what are the chances they tank the season to avoid making the playoffs, thereby keeping their first-rounder?

This could quite possibly be the stupidest post EVER on this board. Come back to reality will you please......

OK, Sammie. And if two weeks ago I had told you your beloved team was using sideline cameras to spy on their opponents, you'd have said the same thing. Whatever, .Hey what's that? Oh, nothing, just a big red *.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

Hating the Patriots is the most effective way of validating their dynasty and success. It means your team couldn't kick the crap out them on the field to make you as a fan indifferent to them , and from this point forward, we will forever suspect this may very well have been because the Patriots had an unfair advantage thanks to their illegal use of video cameras on our teams' sidelines..

Fixed.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Pats should be thankful, because if it was my decision it would have been much worse.

Shocking. Jon, please go back to playing poker.

Hey, who was the fraud again? Ouch.

What are you talking about?BTW. Hines Ward does realize that the Patriots are accused of stealing defensive signals right? Hines #####ing that the Pats knew the Steelers offensive plays seems a little out of place in this argument.

I was referring to your comments re : Bettis and his injury.

 

[Arm Chair Express]

A half a million for Belicheat hurts.

Nonsense. The only thing that would've hurt him is a suspension, including complete banishment from the game over the suspension period. They missed a golden opportunity to really punish the hobo. Both he and the Cheatriots got off easy.

I get the impression that you were going to be disappointed with any penalty that didn't include banishing the team and franchise from Pro Football. The Pat haters should do a better job of disguising their bias and pre-existing disliking of the franchise.

I don't mean to pick on you here, but it is obvious who wants to see a legitimate penalty vs those that just want to see the organization crippled - regardless of what the infraction is/was.

Remember last year when the Pats lost to the Dolphins, it came out after the game that Miami was studying the Pats signals and play calls over the previous week. Perfect illustration that this is not an incident isolated to the Pats.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I dislike NE and think this penalty was OK, the only problem that I have with it is they cheated to win a game. So why should they get to keep the win when they cheated to get it. That game should have been a forfeit.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

A half a million for Belicheat hurts.

Nonsense. The only thing that would've hurt him is a suspension, including complete banishment from the game over the suspension period. They missed a golden opportunity to really punish the hobo. Both he and the Cheatriots got off easy.

I get the impression that you were going to be disappointed with any penalty that didn't include banishing the team and franchise from Pro Football. The Pat haters should do a better job of disguising their bias and pre-existing disliking of the franchise.

I don't mean to pick on you here, but it is obvious who wants to see a legitimate penalty vs those that just want to see the organization crippled - regardless of what the infraction is/was.

Remember last year when the Pats lost to the Dolphins, it came out after the game that Miami was studying the Pats signals and play calls over the previous week. Perfect illustration that this is not an incident isolated to the Pats.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I dislike NE and think this penalty was OK, the only problem that I have with it is they cheated to win a game. So why should they get to keep the win when they cheated to get it. That game should have been a forfeit.

That is not true. The camera was confiscated after the first quarter. The Patriots never saw what was on it.

 

[dlos]

This could explain why the light penalty

Both the NFL and Belichick stressed that the camera was seized before the end of the first quarter and had no impact on the game, which the Patriots won 38-14.

The penalty was for taping 15 mins. of 1 game. And they didn't even get to benefit from it.All the other stuff about GB last year is all hearsay, there is no proof.

I'm a Pats fan and am embarrassed by this and think they got off easy.

Exactly when can we move past this?

 

[Gambino]

But you don't really think the guy in the hoody is paying this out of his pocket do you?

Yeah - I do.And yeah - he is.He might make it back next year, but he's paying it now.

That is illogical. My wife is going to pay our DirecTv bill tomorrow, but rest assured it is MY MONEY. BB loses nothing here.

Sounds like a fantastic marriage you have there buddy.

At least we have a house that is appreciating.