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Paul Krugman is a jackass (1 Viewer)

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I agree, the entire Bush tax cuts need to be repealed. That just gives us some breathing room and a slightly more stable economy while we rethink how we govern. I for one think we should listen to the economist and go with flat rate taxing with no exceptions (deductions, credits, etc.) along with government vouchers for healthcare (and education if we federalize this piece of it) and guaranteed income to replace the welfare state. But that cripples the power of government as there are not much in the way of purse strings still remaining to manipulate and actually gives the masses freedom to make their own choices. But the establishment from the right will keep the conservative in "sticker shock", and the lefties will talk about leaving people out in the cold or hungry or whatever without defined programs for each aspect of the poor life. So yes I'm just dreaming....
:goodposting: I am very much on board with all of this.
Yes, except that I'm not sure how guaranteed income is different in principle from a standard deduction.
Well, if we started to take the various programs where the government picks a class of people and either cuts them a break on their taxes and/or sends them a check and cancelled those programs and applied divided the costs of those programs to the cost of the standard deduction ...AND

We applied the standard deduction as a refundable tax credit rather than requiring income to offset against it we would have a negative income tax variation of a guaranteed income.

There is a reason "Every economist agrees" thread from a few years ago list negative income tax as a better way to deal with welfare. I think you have also recommend the "Freedom to Choose" PBS TV series in the past, have you read this obituary/editorial? Here is the quote from the book

We should replace the ragbag of specific welfare programs with a single comprehensive program of income supplements in cash — a negative income tax. It would provide an assured minimum to all persons in need, regardless of the reasons for their need, while doing as little harm as possible to their character, their independence, or their incentives to better their own conditions.

A negative income tax provides comprehensive reform which would do more efficiently and humanely what our present welfare system does so inefficiently and inhumanely.

The only problem with promoting a "negative income tax" it is assumes there is an "income tax" rather than some other form of taxation.
 
Best Article on Krugman Ever Written

Editor’s Note: This article is excerpted from Donald Luskin’s new book, I Am John Galt.

Christiane Amanpour’s eyes darted back and forth in fear, and her mouth twisted in disgust, because she could see where this was going. A guest on her Sunday-morning political talk show, ABC’s This Week, was getting dangerously overexcited, and something very regrettable was about to happen.

She could see that he was winding himself up as he talked about how a recent deficit-reduction panel hadn’t been “brave enough” — because it failed to endorse the idea of expert panels that would determine what medical services government-funded care wouldn’t pay for. When Obamacare was still being debated in Congress, Sarah Palin had created a media sensation by calling them “death panels,” causing most liberals who supported Obamacare to quickly distance themselves from any idea of rationing care as being tantamount to murder.

Cut to Amanpour’s horrified face. Cut back to the guest. Then it happened.

The guest said, “Some years down the pike, we’re going to get the real solution, which is going to be a combination of death panels and sales taxes.”

It was all the more horrifying because the guest was not a conservative, not an opponent of Obamacare. This guest was an avid liberal, a partisan Democrat, and an enthusiastic supporter of government-run health care. He was endorsing death panels, not warning about them. He was saying death panels are a good thing. And it was even more horrifying because of who this guest was. This was no fringe lefty wearing a tinfoil hat, churning out underground newspapers in his parents’ basement. This was an economics professor at Princeton, one of the country’s most prestigious universities. This was the winner of the Nobel Prize in economics, the highest honor the profession can bestow. This was a columnist for the New York Times, the most influential newspaper in the world. This was Paul Krugman, live, on national television, endorsing government control over life and death. And while we’re at it, let’s raise taxes on those who are permitted to live.

Who exactly does Paul Krugman think he is? He’d like to think he’s John Maynard Keynes, the venerated British economist who created the intellectual framework for modern government intervention in the economy. Keynes is something of a cult figure for modern liberal economists like Krugman, who read his texts with exegetical fervor. But Krugman will never live up to Keynes. However politicized his economic theories, Keynes’s predictions were so astute that he made himself wealthy as a speculator. Economics is called “the dismal science,” but as we’ll see, Krugman’s predictions are so laughably bad his economics should be called the abysmal pseudo-science.

Most critiques of Krugman as a public intellectual begin with what is apparently an obligatory disclaimer, usually in the very first sentence — something to the effect that Krugman is a very accomplished and well-respected economist. Then comes the “But . . .” and the critique proceeds in earnest, often scathingly.

But why concede this honor to Krugman? So what if he won the Nobel Prize? The real test of Krugman’s mettle as an economist is the accuracy of his economic forecasting. The fact is that, with about three decades of evidence now in, Krugman’s track record, to use a technical term favored by economists, sucks.

He’s not always candid about this. But once, under the pressure of a televised debate with conservative talk-show host Bill O’Reilly, Krugman blurted out an understated if truthful self-evaluation: “Compare me . . . compare me, uh, with anyone else, and I think you’ll see that my forecasting record is not great.”

The most egregious example of “not great” is Krugman’s utterly incorrect 1982 prediction that inflation would soar. He made this prediction from no less lofty a perch than the White House, as staff member of the Council of Economic Advisers in the first Reagan administration. In a memo titled “The Inflation Time Bomb” Krugman wrote with co-author Lawrence Summers, “We believe that it is reasonable to expect a significant reacceleration of inflation . . . at least 5 percentage points to future increases in consumer prices. . . . This estimate is conservative.”

It also turned out to be hilariously, side-splittingly, knee-slappingly, rolling-on-the-floor wrong. Except for a tiny uptick the very next month, inflation didn’t rise; it fell. Four years later, it had fallen to 1.18 percent, a rate so low as to border on deflation.

In late February 2000, two weeks before the peak of the dot-com stock bubble at Nasdaq 5,000, Krugman wrote in his Times column that the Dow Jones Industrial Average was overvalued, saying, “Let the blue chips fall where they may.” As for the Nasdaq — which at that point had almost doubled over the prior year, and more than tripled over the prior three years — Krugman said soothingly, “I’m not sure that the current value of the Nasdaq is justified, but I’m not sure that it isn’t.”

We all know what happened. As of this writing, the Dow is about 20 percent higher than when Krugman wrote those words — and that’s not including a decade of dividends. The Nasdaq is about 42 percent lower. It hit bottom in October 2002, a 75.7 percent loss from where Krugman said not to worry about it. After something of a recovery, stocks fell again. They hit a real bottom — about a week after Krugman wrote a Times column asking the rhetorical question, “Is there any relief in sight?” His wrong answer: “No.”

Perfect bookends: He missed the top, and then three years later, he missed the bottom. But then he outdid himself. In June 2003, with the Nasdaq up 20 percent since Krugman’s “No,” did he recognize his error and reverse course? Again, no. Krugman wrote that “the current surge in stocks looks like another bubble.” From there the Nasdaq was to rally another 75 percent.

At around the same time, afraid of what he called a “fiscal train wreck” that would lead to disastrously high interest rates, he announced in the lead paragraph of a March 2003 Times column: “So last week I switched to a fixed-rate mortgage. It means higher monthly payments, but I’m terrified about what will happen to interest rates once financial markets wake up to the implications of skyrocketing budget deficits.” In fact, rates didn’t rise, even when budget deficits skyrocketed beyond anything he could have imagined then, driven by government “stimulus” spending that he himself urged. Nowadays, on his New York Times blog, he regularly chides deficit-wary Republicans by using today’s low interest rates to prove that the U.S. faces no financial difficulties.

In 2003, I set out to expose Krugman’s various distortions, and to force the New York Times to correct them. I started first on my blog, and soon afterward in a series of columns for National Review Online called “The Krugman Truth Squad” (KTS). The inaugural KTS column appeared on March 20, 2003. The series of columns was structured as what is now called “crowdsourcing”: Within several hours of a Krugman column’s appearing on the Times website, I and a network of fellow bloggers would put it under a microscope and discover all the filthy microbes hiding in every crack. We’d fact-check every claim, confirm every quotation, run down every source, and compare every statement for consistency with statements made in the past. The KTS called Krugman “America’s most dangerous liberal pundit,” and our promise to readers was: “We’ll read Paul Krugman so you don’t have to.”

I won’t cite here very many of the dozens upon dozens of prevarications that my Krugman Truth Squad exposed in 94 columns over five years. If you are interested, look up my name in the NRO author archives, where most of the KTS columns can still be seen. Or you can download a PDF file with the entire collection of KTS columns here.

In most cases, any given one of Krugman’s prevarications — if uncorrected, his lies — will seem trivial, as though I were nitpicking to focus on it. But the cumulative effect of them all — every exaggerated statistic designed to bolster some economic argument, every out-of-context quotation designed to make some conservative politician look venal or conservative economist look stupid, every inaccurate historical citation designed to make conservatives into crooks and liberals into heroes — is to shape Krugman’s narrative with a persuasive power it would never achieve if it were confined to the truth. In the same sense, the cumulative effect of my persistent blogging, and of the Krugman Truth Squad columns, has been to gradually erode that persuasive power.

My Truth Squad got Krugman’s attention right away. After just a month, in an April 2003 KTS column, I took Krugman to task for a whopper he’d told the day before in his Times column. Concerning claims by the Bush administration for job creation as a result of its proposed tax cuts, Krugman wrote,

Let’s pretend that the Bush administration really thinks that its $726 billion tax-cut plan will create 1.4 million jobs. At what price would those jobs be created? . . . The average American worker earns only about $40,000 per year; why does the administration, even on its own estimates, need to offer $500,000 in tax cuts for each job created?

Sounds sensible if you read it fast — and pretty damning of Bush’s plan — especially if you assume you don’t have to question Krugman’s claims, since these words were written by a Princeton economist on the pages of the New York Times. But now: Stop, think, and question. That $726 billion number came from a report prepared by Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers. The estimate of 1.4 million jobs created was just for the first single year of the tax cuts, 2004. Yet the $726 billion price tag was for ten years. In other words, Krugman was pushing the entire ten-year cost of the tax cut onto a single year of jobs creation.

It was a remarkably arrogant and sloppy thing for Krugman to put in writing, especially considering that a couple of months earlier he’d made a similar claim in a television interview, in which, without missing a beat, the interviewer had caught the distortion and forced Krugman to backtrack. PBS’s Geoff Colvin asked Krugman, “Well, but it’s going to go for longer than just this one year, right?” And all Krugman could say was “Well, yeah. . . .” But then he repeated the distortion, and having already acknowledged it to Colvin, the second time around it wasn’t just a distortion — it was a lie. And it was in writing, in the pages of the New York Times. There was no backtracking — and from Krugman, certainly no confession. All Krugman could do was try to justify it retroactively, which he did in a lengthy series of posts and updates on his Princeton website. He cited abstruse charts and graphs based on Keynesian macroeconomic theory to justify his erroneous claim — which for all the highfalutin econobabble was self-evidently simply the result of his having failed to divide by 10. Keynes would be rolling in his grave, only he’s too busy laughing.

After that, my KTS dogged Krugman relentlessly, catching dozens upon dozens of errors, distortions, and misquotations in his columns, which when left uncorrected became lies.

With all I and my fellow Krugman Truth Squad members did to expose Krugman’s lies, and with a new New York Times columnist corrections policy that imposes a formal reputational cost on Krugman if he keeps on lying, it seems that Krugman has nothing to say — at least nothing that has the power to influence the national debate, as his columns once did. It turns out that it’s a lot harder to convince people when you have to stick to the truth.

Need proof? Just think how Krugman must have felt in late 2010, when the 2003 Bush tax cuts he did so much to oppose — including embroiling himself in the humiliating divide-by-10 contretemps — were extended by a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress. At the same time, Krugman has become a victim of his own success. His vicious cycle of ever looser and ever coarser discourse has reached a dead end, and left him facing a new generation of competitors as loose and as coarse as he is. He just doesn’t stand out anymore.
 
The Demons in Krugenomics

The Paul Krugman is a jackass bandwagon takes on another rider.

Paul Krugman’s affection for ­markets fell as he became obsessed with inequality, market instability and catastrophic climate change

Nobel economist Paul Krugman is due to address the Economic Club of Toronto Wednesday on whether the United States has “mortgaged its future.” If Mr. Krugman is true to form, he will tell his audience that it has not mortgaged its future enough. What is desperately needed is more government borrowing and spending.

Mr. Krugman is a Nobel-winning trade-policy academic economist who, over the past couple of decades, has gone increasingly to the liberal dark side, as evidenced in his columns in The New York Times. What seems to have driven him completely over the edge is a combination of Bush Derangement Syndrome and an evangelical desire to prove that Reaganomics was a failure. He criticizes Barack Obama for not going far enough. He hates Republicans with a passion and is Keynesian to the core. Thus he can only interpret the failure of government stimulus as evidence of “cowardice” or “lack of political will.”

Like most liberal moralists, Mr. Krugman demonizes his opponents as not merely wicked and/or stupid/and or venal, but also “furious” because he is so right and they are so wrong. On election night 2008, he and his even more uncompromisingly liberal wife, Robin Wells, who is also a Princeton economist, had a party at which effigies of their enemies were burned. Salem, anyone?

Mr. Krugman constantly concocts conspiracies of the rich to grind the faces of the poor. He calls anti-Keynesians “The Pain Caucus.” He is currently lashed to the mast of not one but two sinking ships, the USS Keynes and the USS Draconian Climate Policy.

Modern American conservatism, he has written, “is, in large part, a movement shaped by billionaires and their bank accounts, and assured paycheques for the ideologically loyal are an important part of the system. Scientists willing to deny the existence of man-made climate change, economists willing to declare that tax cuts for the rich are essential to growth, strategic thinkers willing to provide rationales for wars of choice, lawyers willing to provide defences of torture, all can count on support from a network of organizations that may seem independent on the surface but are largely financed by a handful of ultra-wealthy families.”

Maybe he should check out what causes the Rockefeller, Carnegie, Pew, Hewlett and Packard foundations are actually promoting. It certainly isn’t climate change denial.

Mr. Krugman’s Nobel Prize for work in international trade and economic geography was widely praised. Early in his career he was a fan of markets and free trade, and attacked “popular” economists such as John Kenneth Galbraith, Lester Thurow and Robert Reich, who catered to economic misconceptions beneath a cloak of liberal good intentions. However, that cloak in the end proved too attractive not to try on.

Mr. Krugman’s affection for markets has declined as he has become obsessed with inequality, market instability and catastrophic climate change. He doesn’t think consumers can be trusted to make the “right” choices any more, and has taken to the remarkably annoying habit of condemning free marketers as people who believe that people are always rational and markets perfect. Then again, straw men are easy to torch.

Mr. Krugman’s take on the ongoing crisis is remarkable not merely for wishing to keep doing more of what has failed, but his blindness to the role of government policy in its creation. Fannie and Freddie? Mere bystanders who only decided to help blow up the system “late in the game.” Greece? It’s all the euro’s fault.

Anthropogenic global warming has become an article of religious faith for Mr. Krugman, which has required him to go through astonishing convolutions in the face of growing evidence of corruption. Climategate? A “fake scandal.” Remember those emails about a “trick” to “hide the decline”? According to Mr. Krugman this was an “anomalous decline.” Well, no. The decline was in actual temperature readings which failed to concur with the proxy data from tree rings. These had to be “hidden” because tree ring data were essential to the credibility of the poster child “hockey stick” graph that presented the twentieth century as a thousand year anomaly. The decline had to be hidden because it exposed fake science.

The former free trader now thinks that carbon tariffs might not be such a bad idea, and since cap and trade represents an alleged “market solution” to the catastrophe-to-come, the conservatives who (successfully) opposed it are, in Mr. Krugman’s view, hypocrites.

Mr. Krugman leans towards the global salvationist posturing of Lord Stern, whose climate review is a monument to perverted cost-benefit analysis. “Stern’s moral argument for loving unborn generations as we love ourselves may be too strong,” Mr. Krugman has written, “but there’s a compelling case to be made that public policy should take a much longer view than private markets.”

The problem is that it doesn’t.

The evil of Mr. Krugman’s opponents is all embracing. He has written that “[T]hose who insist that Ben Bernanke has blood on his hands tend to be more or less the same people who insist that the scientific consensus on climate reflects a vast leftist conspiracy.” You see the connection? Leaving aside the blood libel, if you oppose further corruption of the monetary system you are clearly also a climate denier. And why doesn’t America have universal public health care? Simple, it’s due to “The legacy of slavery, America’s original sin.”

Once Mr. Krugman’s intellectual inspiration was Adam Smith. Now it’s Naomi Klein.
 
3.5 Out of 4A moment of self-reflection: to what extent has this slump played out the way I thought it would?I’d think of myself as having held, from early days, four main views that were at odds with a substantial number of other commentators. They were:1. The slump would be very prolonged, with an extended period of jobless recovery.2. As long as we were in the liquidity trap, interest rates would stay low despite large budget deficits.3. Also, as long as we were in a liquidity trap, large increases in the monetary base would — as in the case of Japan — matter not at all for inflation or nominal GDP.4. Sustained high unemployment would keep wages and core inflation low, and quite likely push us toward Japan-style deflation.On the first three I think I was completely right. On the last, nominal wages have proved much more resistant to falling than I expected; I should have taken the downward nominal rigidity notion much more seriously. In general, I should have realized that we know less about wage and price determination under conditions of high unemployment than we do about savings, investment, and the liquidity trap. If we are going to have Japan-type deflation, it obviously won’t happen for quite a while.But compared with the people predicting a V-shaped recovery, soaring rates, and/or hyperinflation by 2010, not too bad. I’d put it at 3.5 out of 4.
 
As usual, Paul Krugman getting caught disagreeing with Paul Krugman

Obama and Krugman. Those Nobel guys sure can pick'em.

Paul Krugman now says that some kinds of Keynesian stimulus spending just aren’t as effective as other kinds. Specifically, he suggests, aid to state and local governments (to enable them to keep government workers in their jobs) is a sort of second-class stimulus:

So what happened to the stimulus? Much of it consisted of tax cuts, not spending. Most of the rest consisted either of aid to distressed families or aid to hard-pressed state and local governments. This aid may have mitigated the slump, but it wasn’t the kind of job-creation program we could and should have had. [E.A.]

Hmm. That’s not what I remember him saying back in 2009. In 2009, if I remember right, job-preserving aid to state and local governments was almost the most important thing in the world. Let’s see … searching … searching … Sorry I’m a little rusty … searching … whoops, hit the Times paywall … searching … ah, yes:

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. [E.A.]

I can’t find the part where he says “but in two years if it doesn’t work I’ll say it just wasn’t the right kind.” …
 
As usual, Paul Krugman getting caught disagreeing with Paul Krugman

Obama and Krugman. Those Nobel guys sure can pick'em.

Paul Krugman now says that some kinds of Keynesian stimulus spending just aren’t as effective as other kinds. Specifically, he suggests, aid to state and local governments (to enable them to keep government workers in their jobs) is a sort of second-class stimulus:

So what happened to the stimulus? Much of it consisted of tax cuts, not spending. Most of the rest consisted either of aid to distressed families or aid to hard-pressed state and local governments. This aid may have mitigated the slump, but it wasn’t the kind of job-creation program we could and should have had. [E.A.]

Hmm. That’s not what I remember him saying back in 2009. In 2009, if I remember right, job-preserving aid to state and local governments was almost the most important thing in the world. Let’s see … searching … searching … Sorry I’m a little rusty … searching … whoops, hit the Times paywall … searching … ah, yes:

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. [E.A.]

I can’t find the part where he says “but in two years if it doesn’t work I’ll say it just wasn’t the right kind.” …
You can explain Krugman this way... he is a very smart individual with the absolute blind partisanship you find in a guy like TGunz. Thus he fashions his arguments not in economics but in what is politically expedient for his favorite team. When you do that you are not being honest and you can only keep track of so many lies before you can not keep them all straight (though these may not be lies but they are fabrications that ends up being hard to keep track of).
 
:thumbup:
3.5 Out of 4A moment of self-reflection: to what extent has this slump played out the way I thought it would?I'd think of myself as having held, from early days, four main views that were at odds with a substantial number of other commentators. They were:1. The slump would be very prolonged, with an extended period of jobless recovery.2. As long as we were in the liquidity trap, interest rates would stay low despite large budget deficits.3. Also, as long as we were in a liquidity trap, large increases in the monetary base would — as in the case of Japan — matter not at all for inflation or nominal GDP.4. Sustained high unemployment would keep wages and core inflation low, and quite likely push us toward Japan-style deflation.On the first three I think I was completely right. On the last, nominal wages have proved much more resistant to falling than I expected; I should have taken the downward nominal rigidity notion much more seriously. In general, I should have realized that we know less about wage and price determination under conditions of high unemployment than we do about savings, investment, and the liquidity trap. If we are going to have Japan-type deflation, it obviously won't happen for quite a while.But compared with the people predicting a V-shaped recovery, soaring rates, and/or hyperinflation by 2010, not too bad. I'd put it at 3.5 out of 4.
You might be wrong on number 3 unless you live on a diet of Little Caesar pizzas. Energy and food costs are inflating, but inflation is hidden because of how it is measured.
 
:thumbup:

3.5 Out of 4A moment of self-reflection: to what extent has this slump played out the way I thought it would?I'd think of myself as having held, from early days, four main views that were at odds with a substantial number of other commentators. They were:1. The slump would be very prolonged, with an extended period of jobless recovery.2. As long as we were in the liquidity trap, interest rates would stay low despite large budget deficits.3. Also, as long as we were in a liquidity trap, large increases in the monetary base would — as in the case of Japan — matter not at all for inflation or nominal GDP.4. Sustained high unemployment would keep wages and core inflation low, and quite likely push us toward Japan-style deflation.On the first three I think I was completely right. On the last, nominal wages have proved much more resistant to falling than I expected; I should have taken the downward nominal rigidity notion much more seriously. In general, I should have realized that we know less about wage and price determination under conditions of high unemployment than we do about savings, investment, and the liquidity trap. If we are going to have Japan-type deflation, it obviously won't happen for quite a while.But compared with the people predicting a V-shaped recovery, soaring rates, and/or hyperinflation by 2010, not too bad. I'd put it at 3.5 out of 4.
You might be wrong on number 3 unless you live on a diet of Little Caesar pizzas. Energy and food costs are inflating, but inflation is hidden because of how it is measured.
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
 
As usual, Paul Krugman getting caught disagreeing with Paul Krugman

Obama and Krugman. Those Nobel guys sure can pick'em.

Paul Krugman now says that some kinds of Keynesian stimulus spending just aren’t as effective as other kinds. Specifically, he suggests, aid to state and local governments (to enable them to keep government workers in their jobs) is a sort of second-class stimulus:

So what happened to the stimulus? Much of it consisted of tax cuts, not spending. Most of the rest consisted either of aid to distressed families or aid to hard-pressed state and local governments. This aid may have mitigated the slump, but it wasn’t the kind of job-creation program we could and should have had. [E.A.]

Hmm. That’s not what I remember him saying back in 2009. In 2009, if I remember right, job-preserving aid to state and local governments was almost the most important thing in the world. Let’s see … searching … searching … Sorry I’m a little rusty … searching … whoops, hit the Times paywall … searching … ah, yes:

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. [E.A.]

I can’t find the part where he says “but in two years if it doesn’t work I’ll say it just wasn’t the right kind.” …
Not a very effective gotcha. He says right there in plain English that aid to states will help stop job losses, and he still agrees ("This aid may have mitigated the slump"). That's not the same as lamenting a lack of job creation programs in the stimulus.
 
As usual, Paul Krugman getting caught disagreeing with Paul Krugman

Obama and Krugman. Those Nobel guys sure can pick'em.

Paul Krugman now says that some kinds of Keynesian stimulus spending just arent as effective as other kinds. Specifically, he suggests, aid to state and local governments (to enable them to keep government workers in their jobs) is a sort of second-class stimulus:

So what happened to the stimulus? Much of it consisted of tax cuts, not spending. Most of the rest consisted either of aid to distressed families or aid to hard-pressed state and local governments. This aid may have mitigated the slump, but it wasnt the kind of job-creation program we could and should have had. [E.A.]

Hmm. Thats not what I remember him saying back in 2009. In 2009, if I remember right, job-preserving aid to state and local governments was almost the most important thing in the world. Lets see … searching … searching … Sorry Im a little rusty … searching … whoops, hit the Times paywall … searching … ah, yes:

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. [E.A.]

I cant find the part where he says but in two years if it doesnt work Ill say it just wasnt the right kind. …
Not a very effective gotcha. He says right there in plain English that aid to states will help stop job losses, and he still agrees ("This aid may have mitigated the slump"). That's not the same as lamenting a lack of job creation programs in the stimulus.
It's an extremely effective gotcha. Initially he said that aid to the states was THE MOST effective and needed part of the stimulus package. Not just that it was helpful or better than nothing, but that that it was singularly important. Now he says that he guesses that maybe this spending was okay sort of, but we really should have been doing something else. If anybody else made these two statements, Paul Krugman would happily put them side-by-side to show how evil, stupid, and opportunistic the speaker was.

 
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As usual, Paul Krugman getting caught disagreeing with Paul Krugman

Obama and Krugman. Those Nobel guys sure can pick'em.

Paul Krugman now says that some kinds of Keynesian stimulus spending just aren’t as effective as other kinds. Specifically, he suggests, aid to state and local governments (to enable them to keep government workers in their jobs) is a sort of second-class stimulus:

So what happened to the stimulus? Much of it consisted of tax cuts, not spending. Most of the rest consisted either of aid to distressed families or aid to hard-pressed state and local governments. This aid may have mitigated the slump, but it wasn’t the kind of job-creation program we could and should have had. [E.A.]

Hmm. That’s not what I remember him saying back in 2009. In 2009, if I remember right, job-preserving aid to state and local governments was almost the most important thing in the world. Let’s see … searching … searching … Sorry I’m a little rusty … searching … whoops, hit the Times paywall … searching … ah, yes:

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. [E.A.]

I can’t find the part where he says “but in two years if it doesn’t work I’ll say it just wasn’t the right kind.” …
Not a very effective gotcha. He says right there in plain English that aid to states will help stop job losses, and he still agrees ("This aid may have mitigated the slump"). That's not the same as lamenting a lack of job creation programs in the stimulus.
It's an extremely effective gotcha. Initially he said that aid to the states was THE MOST effective and needed part of the stimulus package. Not just that it was helpful or better than nothing, but that that it was singularly important. Now he says that he guesses that maybe this spending was okay sort of, but we really should have been doing something else. If anybody else made these two statements, Paul Krugman would happily put them side-by-side to show how evil, stupid, and opportunistic the speaker was.
He begins his 2009 post by saying the plan as it is is woefully insufficient, and that the GOP is trying to shave off spending on the most effective parts of the remaining plan:
According to the CBO’s estimates, we’re facing an output shortfall of almost 14% of GDP over the next two years, or around $2 trillion. Others, such as Goldman Sachs, are even more pessimistic. So the original $800 billion plan was too small, especially because a substantial share consisted of tax cuts that probably would have added little to demand. The plan should have been at least 50% larger.

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. But in the name of mighty centrism, $40 billion of that aid has been cut out.

My first cut says that the changes to the Senate bill will ensure that we have at least 600,000 fewer Americans employed over the next two years.

The real question now is whether Obama will be able to come back for more once it’s clear that the plan is way inadequate
There's a difference between Krugman's wish list for job creation programs in a $2 trillion stimulus and his wish list for what parts of the actual $800 billion plan he'd like to keep. It seems like his predictions have largely been borne out, while the people who have been consistently wrong are eager to save face.
 
That still doesn't change the fact that his opinion on the efficacy of financial aid to state governments has, um, evolved over the past couple of years.

 
That still doesn't change the fact that his opinion on the efficacy of financial aid to state governments has, um, evolved over the past couple of years.
Fair enough. I don't read it that way, but there is an enthusiasm gap between these two isolated quotes. I think the context provides plenty of explanation.
 
It seems like his predictions have largely been borne out, while the people who have been consistently wrong are eager to save face.
Huh. I would have said that the predictions of those who disagreed with Krugman at the time have been proven right in their entirely. Specifically, people like me who said the stimulus was simply going to delay the inevitable, necessary correction, while also saddling the country with significant additional debt.
 
It seems like his predictions have largely been borne out, while the people who have been consistently wrong are eager to save face.
Huh. I would have said that the predictions of those who disagreed with Krugman at the time have been proven right in their entirely. Specifically, people like me who said the stimulus was simply going to delay the inevitable, necessary correction, while also saddling the country with significant additional debt.
It would help to see a representative quote so I can understand what your prediction was.
 
It seems like his predictions have largely been borne out, while the people who have been consistently wrong are eager to save face.
Huh. I would have said that the predictions of those who disagreed with Krugman at the time have been proven right in their entirely. Specifically, people like me who said the stimulus was simply going to delay the inevitable, necessary correction, while also saddling the country with significant additional debt.
It would help to see a representative quote so I can understand what your prediction was.
True, but I'm too lazy to search for one. Trust me that the above captures the gist of it. It's what I believed then and it's what I believe now.
 
'Rich Conway said:
'pantagrapher said:
'Rich Conway said:
It seems like his predictions have largely been borne out, while the people who have been consistently wrong are eager to save face.
Huh. I would have said that the predictions of those who disagreed with Krugman at the time have been proven right in their entirely. Specifically, people like me who said the stimulus was simply going to delay the inevitable, necessary correction, while also saddling the country with significant additional debt.
It would help to see a representative quote so I can understand what your prediction was.
True, but I'm too lazy to search for one. Trust me that the above captures the gist of it. It's what I believed then and it's what I believe now.
Kruguman was pretty critical of the stimulus as being inadequate given the scope of the economic problem. So while he was in favor of stimulus in general, your predictions weren't in direct disagreement with his. I think you could probably both claim to be "right", although there aren't any absolute truths to be found here. The inflation hawks have fared the worst against Krugman so far I'd say, but who knows where we'll be a month or six months from now.

ETA - In 2008 I was mildly against stimulus, but thought it was a political certainty. Politicians have to be seen as doing something in a crisis. Since then I've been swayed to the idea that we probably didn't do nearly enough.

 
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So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
 
The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
:goodposting: As Bill Maher put it (paraphrasing) "If Obama is going to be taken down in 2012, he should be taken down by at least trying to institute progressive and democratic policies rather than weakened conservative ones." or something like that.

 
The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
:goodposting: As Bill Maher put it (paraphrasing) "If Obama is going to be taken down in 2012, he should be taken down by at least trying to institute progressive and democratic policies rather than weakened conservative ones." or something like that.
If the Republicans are going to demonize him as a radical communist nutjob no matter what he does, then he may as well try to do things his party actually wants.
 
If the Republicans are going to demonize him as a radical communist nutjob no matter what he does, then he may as well try to do things his party actually wants.
They're not calling him that. They're calling him a petulant, intransigent, tantrum throwing, man-child demagogue incapable of leadership or compromise.Or something along those lines.Actually, maybe it's just me calling him that.
 
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The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
What a terrifying thought.
He's basically continued everything Bush was doing and threw in a healthcare plan from Dole and Romney. What do you think he has done that is really liberal? Or is it that "conservative" to progressives basically means Republican Party while to you it is something more akin to a libertarians?

 
The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
What a terrifying thought.
He's basically continued everything Bush was doing and threw in a healthcare plan from Dole and Romney. What do you think he has done that is really liberal? Or is it that "conservative" to progressives basically means Republican Party while to you it is something more akin to a libertarians?
I always considered "Compassionate Conservatism" to be a kissing cousin to liberalism. I think all those terms have lost nearly all meaning.

 
The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
:goodposting: As Bill Maher put it (paraphrasing) "If Obama is going to be taken down in 2012, he should be taken down by at least trying to institute progressive and democratic policies rather than weakened conservative ones." or something like that.
If the Republicans are going to demonize him as a radical communist nutjob no matter what he does, then he may as well try to do things his party actually wants.
:goodposting:
 
My predictions of what the stimulus would do were at least as good as Kruguman's. The problem with the stimulus had nothing to do with being too small, it is that there was very little to stimulate business and long-term sustainable job creation. You could have tripled the stimulus and it would not have made a huge difference.

 
The same planet as the rest of the progressive wing of the Democratic party. He's pretty in tune with their thinking. To them, Obama is one of the most conservative presidents they've ever seen and they are furious with him.
What a terrifying thought.
He's basically continued everything Bush was doing and threw in a healthcare plan from Dole and Romney. What do you think he has done that is really liberal? Or is it that "conservative" to progressives basically means Republican Party while to you it is something more akin to a libertarians?
I always considered "Compassionate Conservatism" to be a kissing cousin to liberalism. I think all those terms have lost nearly all meaning.
I think "Corporatist" is a better term for the last two presidents than any party identifier.
 
My predictions of what the stimulus would do were at least as good as Kruguman's. The problem with the stimulus had nothing to do with being too small, it is that there was very little to stimulate business and long-term sustainable job creation. You could have tripled the stimulus and it would not have made a huge difference.
The biggest problem was that it was a short sighted bill. You are not encouraging any sustained economic activity with short lived tax breaks and you are not creating any economic activity with closed ended projects. Basically, any person or business that benefits from anything along those lines is looking to the end of the benefit- they then plan accordingly not knowing what will happen or being fearful of what will happen after that stimulus money or tax breaks vanish. Thus you are not stimulating anything but rather performing a delaying action. If the recovery from other means does not present itself by the time the stimulus impact is wearing off then you end up with an extended recession or weak recovery.
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
Or, we could look at predictions like "this stimulus will simply delay the necessary correction" and "the stimulus will cause the recession to be shallower and more prolonged rather than deeper and quicker" and realize that they were exactly correct based on all available data.
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
It is pointless because the 'tax every class we don't like and have government spend to fix everything crowd' will always say that the recession would have been worse or the stimulus was not big enough or just about any other excuse to come up with to explain away the fact that the stimulus did not even do what they said it would do.
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
It is pointless because the 'tax every class we don't like and have government spend to fix everything crowd' will always say that the recession would have been worse or the stimulus was not big enough or just about any other excuse to come up with to explain away the fact that the stimulus did not even do what they said it would do.
I look forward to the day you stop with this stupid hyperbole and use language that accurately reflects the opposition's position. I'm a liberal who is advocating for tax increases that will reduce my family's income, while supporting gov't assistance programs that I will never use. So the idea that I want to "tax a class I don't like" and "have gov't spend to fix everything" is comically ridiculous.
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
It is pointless because the 'tax every class we don't like and have government spend to fix everything crowd' will always say that the recession would have been worse or the stimulus was not big enough or just about any other excuse to come up with to explain away the fact that the stimulus did not even do what they said it would do.
I look forward to the day you stop with this stupid hyperbole and use language that accurately reflects the opposition's position. I'm a liberal who is advocating for tax increases that will reduce my family's income, while supporting gov't assistance programs that I will never use. So the idea that I want to "tax a class I don't like" and "have gov't spend to fix everything" is comically ridiculous.
Ok. Can we just go with the concept that you're "a liberal who is advocating for tax increases that will reduce my family's income, while supporting gov't assitance programs that I will never use" comically ridiculous?
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
It is pointless because the 'tax every class we don't like and have government spend to fix everything crowd' will always say that the recession would have been worse or the stimulus was not big enough or just about any other excuse to come up with to explain away the fact that the stimulus did not even do what they said it would do.
I look forward to the day you stop with this stupid hyperbole and use language that accurately reflects the opposition's position. I'm a liberal who is advocating for tax increases that will reduce my family's income, while supporting gov't assistance programs that I will never use. So the idea that I want to "tax a class I don't like" and "have gov't spend to fix everything" is comically ridiculous.
Ok. Can we just go with the concept that you're "a liberal who is advocating for tax increases that will reduce my family's income, while supporting gov't assitance programs that I will never use" comically ridiculous?
You're making $250+ K per year? If so, good for you. :thumbup:

 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
Or, we could look at predictions like "this stimulus will simply delay the necessary correction" and "the stimulus will cause the recession to be shallower and more prolonged rather than deeper and quicker" and realize that they were exactly correct based on all available data.
Perhaps. Do you think there is any value in allowing the deleveraging of trillions in assets to occur over a 3-5 year timeframe in a semi-orderly fashion as opposed to the entire financial system collapsing due to uncontrolled unwinding and then having to be rebuilt piece by piece?
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
It is pointless because the 'tax every class we don't like and have government spend to fix everything crowd' will always say that the recession would have been worse or the stimulus was not big enough or just about any other excuse to come up with to explain away the fact that the stimulus did not even do what they said it would do.
Come one.Private section is not spending. Who is going to pump money/jobs into the economy?The economy is not working because any new jobs go overseas and why hire domestic workers when they are working 150% and afraid of losing their job? Often times you make more profit off les volume and more productivity.Instead of being upset that these companies have access to our market. We bow to them and let them pay no taxes because they provide the minimal jobs necessary.Yes, companies should be looking to make the most profit they can but we shouldn't bend over as U.S. workers work for peanuts as they raise prices.You know a candy bar is $1.19 in my town. It was $0.50 for like twenty years.Bow-down to those who provide meager jobs and enjoy our marketplace while paying no taxes. Lil #####es. Get a backbone. NRA phonies.
 
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Private section is not spending. Who is going to pump money/jobs into the economy?
The economy is not a bicycle tire. You can't just "pump it up" when it's flat. You have to fix the hole first. The private sector knows this; the government Keynesians don't.(BTW, Obama's disastrous economic policies are the hole in this analogy.)
 
Private section is not spending. Who is going to pump money/jobs into the economy?
The economy is not a bicycle tire. You can't just "pump it up" when it's flat. You have to fix the hole first. The private sector knows this; the government Keynesians don't.(BTW, Obama's disastrous economic policies are the hole in this analogy.)
Thank you for addressing the analogy nobody made.
He was the one making the analogy. You've been kinda surly the last couple days...
 
So if the numbers don't provide the inflation you want, you get to say it's there but we just can't see it. That's great.
Yea, that is just silly! It is like you are for a stimulus package and say that the success of that stimulus package looks like X and then it miserably fails but then you get to say that if we did not do it, we would have been sent back to the dark ages economically. But of course no one would ever say such silly things like that.
Except that we can look at the data that the stimulus projections were based on at the time and see that in hindsight conditions were far worse than the data suggested at the time the stimulus projections were made. Or we can just ignore the data and act like the recession data was perfect in Jan/Feb of '09.
Or, we could look at predictions like "this stimulus will simply delay the necessary correction" and "the stimulus will cause the recession to be shallower and more prolonged rather than deeper and quicker" and realize that they were exactly correct based on all available data.
Perhaps. Do you think there is any value in allowing the deleveraging of trillions in assets to occur over a 3-5 year timeframe in a semi-orderly fashion as opposed to the entire financial system collapsing due to uncontrolled unwinding and then having to be rebuilt piece by piece?
I think you're massively exaggerating what would have happened without the stimulus. Because I think you're exaggerating it, I believe the value was quite minimal and did not outweigh the significant cost.
 
Private section is not spending. Who is going to pump money/jobs into the economy?
The economy is not a bicycle tire. You can't just "pump it up" when it's flat. You have to fix the hole first. The private sector knows this; the government Keynesians don't.(BTW, Obama's disastrous economic policies are the hole in this analogy.)
Thank you for addressing the analogy nobody made.
He was the one making the analogy. You've been kinda surly the last couple days...
Well, then I take issue with his assertion that the "government Keynesians," whoever they are, think the economy is like a bicycle tire.
 

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