Playing Hurt (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

 

[Dr. Gobbler]

I go into the locker room at halftime, I get a brace put on to stabilize the knee. I get a monster shot to take away any pain. Then I go back out there and give it 100%.

Why?

Because I'm the QB and I'm supposed to be the LEADER of this team.

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

 

[Moniker]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You do know that "arm strength" really comes from your plant leg, right?

 

[DawnBTVS]

Absolutely stay in. The odds, unless you're say the Patriots or Steelers of the past 10 years, is incredibly low that you'll play in more than 2 AFC/NFC Title Games.

So right there you have maybe 2 chances at making it to a Super Bowl. The dream of every single kid and professional playing football.

The backup is the backup for a reason, otherwise they would have won the starting job from my hands.

If I can't lead the team and have them put their faith in my abilities, even when I'm hindered or hurt, then they have zero reason to ever trust me for anything in the future. If I doubt my abilities and think the backup can do a better job than me, even injured, I shouldn't be starting in the NFL.

If as a QB I have a bum ankle or knee, then the Coordinator and Coaches should be smart enough to work around the injury while trusting me to lead the team anyway. Call screens, run the ball more, and maybe use gimmick plays to minimize my having to move around heavily in the pocket.

 

[rzrback77]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

You reluctantly sit out to benefit the team. That may not have been the situation at Chicago because of how terrible the 2nd teamer immediately played.

 

[Deuceman]

I go into the locker room at halftime, I get a brace put on to stabilize the knee. I get a monster shot to take away any pain. Then I go back out there and give it 100%.Why?Because I'm the QB and I'm supposed to be the LEADER of this team.Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

We don't know how "taking the monster shot for pain" would have reacted with his medical history of diabeties.

 

[cobalt_27]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

If you are positively certain that your backup gives your team the better chance, you go to the locker room asap and give the reigns to your backup. Anything else would be completely foolish. And selfish.

 

[Moniker]

Why?Because I'm the QB and I'm supposed to be the LEADER of this team.

We do agree on this, though. As the leader of the team, it's your responsibility to know when you need to step aside to help the team - even when every competitive bone in your body wants to be out there.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Hope this isn't off topic, but curious if this is your opinion of Cutler's position yesterday...

 

[RudiStein]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You realize this was not Cutler's call. It was Smith's. The bolded is just plain wrong. Cutler got the crap beat out of him all season long. He never said "boo". Just because he isn't a glad-hander off the field and Johnny Rahrah on the sidelines doesn't mean he doesn't have heart.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.Let me throw this out.You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform. Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.What do you do?J

You stay in as long as you can and give everything you have. It's up to the coach to recognize that you're unable to play as well as the backup that's on your team. In the NFC Championship game, you'd have to kill me to get me out that's the mentality you need to lead your team. The coach needs to recognize there's a major problem and pull the plug on the starter and put someone else in the game.

 

[Mello]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

I voted Absolutely stay in and hope for the best but would probably change it now that I thought about the bolded a bit more. If your absolutely sure that the team has a better chance to win with the backup in, you let him in. The problem is that I think anyone that is objective enough to think someone else will do a better job than himself in the NFC Championship game probably doesn't have the mentality to be a very good NFL QB. It should be so obvious that the starter can't play that a coach would pull him well before the player himself comes to that conclusion.

 

[BigA]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You do know that "arm strength" really comes from your plant leg, right?

part time / bandwagon fans dontand we went through this last year with Urlacher also. The people yapping aren't fans at all. There just a bunch of drunks that are bandwagon fans.

 

[TheChairman]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

 

[TheChairman]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You do know that "arm strength" really comes from your plant leg, right?

part time / bandwagon fans dont

We're talking about a guy whose chief delivery method is from a backpedal.

 

[Tau837]

Joe, in your very specific scenario, the player should volunteer to take himself out. Because you said the player is "absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win".

However, I think in real life, this point of your scenario is often the issue. I think often an injured player, especially one who is viewed as significantly better than his backup(s), will typically think that he offers the team the best chance to win if he plays through the injury, providing he is able to perform the basic functions of his position. I think this mainly happens because of the combination of self confidence and competitiveness, as well as possibly because of the perception of the backup's ability (or lack thereof).

Because of this, I think it is typically the responsibility of the coaching staff, with input from doctors/trainers as needed, to make this decision for the good of the team, without expecting that the injured player will necessarily volunteer to come out if he can still go.

It sounds like the coaching staff made the decision for Cutler yesterday, which is appropriate if it was severe enough. It's unclear exactly how severe his injury was... it's possible that despite the normal desire to play on, he knew after the first series of the second half that the injury was so bad that he couldn't perform well enough, so he did not fight them. Unfortunately for Cutler, there was no way for the viewing public to tell that his injury was that severe, since he didn't seem impaired on the sideline. Alternatively, perhaps it wasn't really that bad, and it was still the coaching staff's decision to take him out, presumably to protect him from further injury. In that case, we might have expected to see him trying to get back in, showing emotion, etc., but we did not see that. So either way, what was visible to the viewing public didn't seem so support him being taken out. That led to a lot of the criticism IMO.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

I voted Absolutely stay in and hope for the best but would probably change it now that I thought about the bolded a bit more. If your absolutely sure that the team has a better chance to win with the backup in, you let him in. The problem is that I think anyone that is objective enough to think someone else will do a better job than himself in the NFC Championship game probably doesn't have the mentality to be a very good NFL QB. It should be so obvious that the starter can't play that a coach would pull him well before the player himself comes to that conclusion.

The "absolutely positively certain" language seems to make it an easy answer - as to what the responsible thing to do would be. I think the qualifier that makes the question interesting is that NFL QB's are truly unique individuals. They are special in my opinion even among the sub-class of elite professional athletes. I don't think a person can rise to that level in this position if there is the slightest bit of doubt or fear or consideration that someone else might be better. Therefore, while I think the responsible and correct answer is to remove yourself from the game, I would not expect an NFL starting QB to make that decision.

 

[gigantor]

thanks for adding yet another thread on cutler.

 

[RudiStein]

Another thing people need to remember: The Bears are betting the farm with Cutler. They brought him to Chicago for the long haul. They want him to be their franchise. What if he kept playing only to really do some serious damage to his knee?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

 

[yoman]

I don't know how anyone can question Jay's toughness after the beatings this guy has incurred this year. When he was with the Broncos he played despite losing tons of weight and feeling weak before they realized that he had type 1 diabetes. Go ahead and question his play on the field but this stuff is ridiculous.

Drew Bledsoe came in for Tom Brady against the Steelers in 2001 or 2002 and there wasn't a major uproar. He certainly was healthy enough to play in the Super Bowl the next week. I guess by the standards that people give Cutler that Tom Brady isn't tough and quit on his team.

 

[angman]

Fascinating discussion is right.

For the record, I choose Rivers over Cutler if i have to choose between them to lead my team. I just think he's a better player and I am a huge fan of Rivers.

That said, everyone talks about Rivers coming back against the Pats the next week on a torn ACL. Rivers didn't return in the same game that he got injured (same as Cutler), and took a cortisone shot and had a specifically developed brace to play. From what I've read, and I'm no doctor so anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but the cortisone shot might not have been an option due to Cutler's diabetic condition.

So I'll ask this question. With Billy Volek on the bench, and at that he was a pretty good backup QB, did Rivers make the right decision? Was it selfish of Rivers to play on one leg?

It's a tough question with no easy answer because really the two options here are a) play, but run the risk of your play hurting the team because you're not a 100% and you get labelled selfish because you put your reputation of being tough ahead of the good of the team...or b) you listen to the doctors and then get named a female body part.

It's a no-win situation in my mind.

 

[TheChairman]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

I'm assuming the quality of play is of a Cutler to Collins difference, as it is for the typical NFL team at QB.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

I'm assuming the quality of play is of a Cutler to Collins difference, as it is for the typical NFL team at QB.

Oh. In that case, you're right. An incapacitated meatwagon rider would be better than Todd Collins.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

To lead a team, that's the mentality you have to have. The coach needs to see how a player is playing and evaluate and make the tough decision. They do it all the time with concussions, many times the player wants back in and the coach keeps them out. When Tony Romo was injured, he wanted to run back on the field hoping to help his team in a tough game against the Giants but he was held back.I want a QB that wants to be in that game and has the attitude that you have to kill me to get me out. I also want a coach who knows his players, knows that about his QB and if he sees he can't go, he gets pulled and the backup is put in.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

To lead a team, that's the mentality you have to have. The coach needs to see how a player is playing and evaluate and make the tough decision. They do it all the time with concussions, many times the player wants back in and the coach keeps them out. When Tony Romo was injured, he wanted to run back on the field hoping to help his team in a tough game against the Giants but he was held back.I want a QB that wants to be in that game and has the attitude that you have to kill me to get me out. I also want a coach who knows his players, knows that about his QB and if he sees he can't go, he gets pulled and the backup is put in.

How do you know he doesn't have that mentality? Simply because he doesn't run around like a maniac and make it obvious that he's seriously hurt? How many times this year, when he was betting beaten game after game, did Lovie ask him if he wanted to come out and Cutler told him to get bent?I'm sure the team trusted that if Cutler said he couldn't go that he REALLY couldn't go.And in your Romo example, why didn't he just tell Wade to take a hike and go back out there?

 

[RudiStein]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

To lead a team, that's the mentality you have to have. The coach needs to see how a player is playing and evaluate and make the tough decision. They do it all the time with concussions, many times the player wants back in and the coach keeps them out. When Tony Romo was injured, he wanted to run back on the field hoping to help his team in a tough game against the Giants but he was held back.I want a QB that wants to be in that game and has the attitude that you have to kill me to get me out. I also want a coach who knows his players, knows that about his QB and if he sees he can't go, he gets pulled and the backup is put in.

Having a bruised brain might be part of this irrational thinking, no?

 

[Barry Foster]

As a competitor, they would have to drag me out of the game.

As a fan, I would want the coach to make an (hopefully) educated decision on it. For example, is Aaron Rodgers at 95% better than Matt Flynn? No disprespect to Flynn, but I would say yes. Is a Matt Hasselbeck at 50% better than Charlie Whitehurst? I would say no. I think it depends on a team-to=team basis, and just how much pain the guy can suck up, and how well he can play with the pain. There definately is a point, where the healthy backup should come in for the injured starter is what I am trying to say. Id want the head coach to make that decision.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

To lead a team, that's the mentality you have to have. The coach needs to see how a player is playing and evaluate and make the tough decision. They do it all the time with concussions, many times the player wants back in and the coach keeps them out. When Tony Romo was injured, he wanted to run back on the field hoping to help his team in a tough game against the Giants but he was held back.I want a QB that wants to be in that game and has the attitude that you have to kill me to get me out. I also want a coach who knows his players, knows that about his QB and if he sees he can't go, he gets pulled and the backup is put in.

Having a bruised brain might be part of this irrational thinking, no?

I don't think it's that do you? I think it's their will to win, to be out there with the guys and a competitive desire.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I stay in until I'm so physically incapacitated I need a meatwagon to take me into the locker room.

So it's all about you and not about the team?

To lead a team, that's the mentality you have to have. The coach needs to see how a player is playing and evaluate and make the tough decision. They do it all the time with concussions, many times the player wants back in and the coach keeps them out. When Tony Romo was injured, he wanted to run back on the field hoping to help his team in a tough game against the Giants but he was held back.I want a QB that wants to be in that game and has the attitude that you have to kill me to get me out. I also want a coach who knows his players, knows that about his QB and if he sees he can't go, he gets pulled and the backup is put in.

How do you know he doesn't have that mentality? Simply because he doesn't run around like a maniac and make it obvious that he's seriously hurt? How many times this year, when he was betting beaten game after game, did Lovie ask him if he wanted to come out and Cutler told him to get bent?I'm sure the team trusted that if Cutler said he couldn't go that he REALLY couldn't go.And in your Romo example, why didn't he just tell Wade to take a hike and go back out there?

I am not speaking specifically about Cutler, I am speaking in general that I want my QB to have that kind of mentality. I beileve Cutler was hurt and couldn't play, in fact I have no doubt about it. Cutler took a beating all year, he woudln't have come out unless he was hurt and couldn't go.As far as Romo, he tried but he had two coaches that pulled him back, Wade wasn't one of them. That's part of my point though, I believe the coach or coaches need to see it too and make that decision.I don't even know but did Lovie come out immediately and say there was no way Cutler could have gone, he was done. That it was his decision and that there's no question in his mind that Cutler would never come out unless he was injured?If he didn't shame on Lovie for not getting his back on this one. If he did, props to him for doing so.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

In people who have diabetes, cortisone injections can elevate the blood sugar. In patients with underlying infections, cortisone injections can suppress somewhat the body's ability to fight the infection and possibly worsen the infection or may mask the infection by suppressing the symptoms and signs of inflammation. Generally, cortisone injections are used with caution in people with diabetes and avoided in people with active infections. Cortisone injections are used cautiously in people with a bleeding disorder.

Google cortisone and diabetes. You'll encounter an endless number of links.

 

[Dr. Gobbler]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You do know that "arm strength" really comes from your plant leg, right?

part time / bandwagon fans dont

We're talking about a guy whose chief delivery method is from a backpedal.

Yeah I guess part time/ bandwagon fans have never watched Cutler throw the ball 65 yards while on both knees in practice while he was in Denver either.

 

[Dr. Gobbler]

In people who have diabetes, cortisone injections can elevate the blood sugar. In patients with underlying infections, cortisone injections can suppress somewhat the body's ability to fight the infection and possibly worsen the infection or may mask the infection by suppressing the symptoms and signs of inflammation. Generally, cortisone injections are used with caution in people with diabetes and avoided in people with active infections. Cortisone injections are used cautiously in people with a bleeding disorder.

Google cortisone and diabetes. You'll encounter an endless number of links.

I don't want him to get a cortisone injection. I want him to get the one where he doesn't even know he has a knee and he forgets that he's Jay Cutler.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Good discussion. You guys are hitting on exactly the area I wanted to get into - the selfish part. There are certainly some players who would stay in purely for themselves. It takes a maturity level to understand one's limits.

If we're to believe what Cutler says about the game, Sunday, he realized, and more aptly, admitted, that he didn't give his team the best chance to win. That decision is being ripped by many. When in reality, it seems like a pretty mature decision on paper.

I see both sides. I'm just trying to explore where people are on it.

J

 

[Dr. Gobbler]

Good discussion. You guys are hitting on exactly the area I wanted to get into - the selfish part. There are certainly some players who would stay in purely for themselves. It takes a maturity level to understand one's limits. If we're to believe what Cutler says about the game, Sunday, he realized, and more aptly, admitted, that he didn't give his team the best chance to win. That decision is being ripped by many. When in reality, it seems like a pretty mature decision on paper.I see both sides. I'm just trying to explore where people are on it.J

I hear what youre saying Joe but if what you're saying is true and Cutler made a decision for the team, then I have to question his decision making skills as well. Put yourself in Cutlers position, your choice is between old man river, Collins, and the 3rd string QB or he toughs it out. I have to think a Cutler at 50% is better than those two options and you know what, any winner is going to feel the same. Winners always want the ball Joe.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I go into the locker room at halftime, I get a brace put on to stabilize the knee. I get a monster shot to take away any pain. Then I go back out there and give it 100%.Why?Because I'm the QB and I'm supposed to be the LEADER of this team.Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

Yeah, I mean I twisted my ankle AND my thumb in the first quarter of the madden bowl on a bag of doritos and I still gutted it out and played.This from guys who all have taken a sick day for the flu i'm sure...armchair bravado is funny stuff though.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Cutler has the arm strength to still play with a bum wheel. Just not the heart.

You realize this was not Cutler's call. It was Smith's. The bolded is just plain wrong. Cutler got the crap beat out of him all season long. He never said "boo". Just because he isn't a glad-hander off the field and Johnny Rahrah on the sidelines doesn't mean he doesn't have heart.

not to mention that he did play some of the second and some of the third with the injury it seems, untill the coach pulled him for effectiveness due to injury.

 

[CalBear]

I think if you're absolutely certain the backup will do better, you sit out.

What most people are reacting to is not only do they think the backup won't do better, they want their starting QB to believe that he is better than the backup, even when he's hobbled. And really, you don't have to be very good to be better than Todd Collins.

 

[Polar Dude]

What if you're healthy and absolutely certain that the backup is better?

 

[cobalt_27]

Good discussion. You guys are hitting on exactly the area I wanted to get into - the selfish part. There are certainly some players who would stay in purely for themselves. It takes a maturity level to understand one's limits. If we're to believe what Cutler says about the game, Sunday, he realized, and more aptly, admitted, that he didn't give his team the best chance to win. That decision is being ripped by many. When in reality, it seems like a pretty mature decision on paper.I see both sides. I'm just trying to explore where people are on it.J

Wait, so I'm trying to figure this out. If Cutler said he wanted to keep playing and it was the coach's decision (which Smith confirmed), how was any of this a "mature decision" on his part?

 

[Dragon1952]

Playing hurt and hurting the team by playing is different than just playing hurt. Of course if your injury is hurting the team you don't play. That's a no brainer and maybe hard for some players to do (i.e. Bret Favre or some other super competitor). But when the alternatives are Todd Collins and Caleb Hanie how much could you be hurting the team by playing? We really don't know how Cutler may have played had he been given the chance so it's hard to say if he could or couldn't have helped.

 

[Sinn Fein]

As a player, you make the coach make the decision you are hurting the team. If you can walk out onto the field, you do so.

 

[Adebisi]

You have to stay in. It is up to the coach to decide who gives the team the best chance to win - not the player.

 

[12punch]

I didn't see Todd Collins taking himself out of the game

 

[Orange&Blue]

There is a difference between playing hurt and playing injured.

FWIW...I'm a Bronco fan.

 

[Orange&Blue]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.Let me throw this out.You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform. Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.What do you do?J

Didn't stop Terrell Davis

 

[Orange&Blue]

What I find unforgiveable by the coaching staff is the fact that they obviously had no faith in Collins and stuck him in there in the first place.

 

[chook]

Reluctant is the key word here. Despite what all the haters seem to think, what I saw in the eyes of Cutler on the sidelines yesterday was a shattered man who knew he couldn't do any more for his team. He tried to go and knew that he simply couldn't - watch it again, that knee was like linguini when he tries to plant it.

IMHO he wasn't moping, he was totally gutted that he'd let his teammates down by the look of it.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

The Cutler talk really is a fascinating discussion.

Let me throw this out.

You're an NFL QB in the NFC Championship game.

You suffer some sort of issue that dramatically impairs your ability to perform.

Let's say it's a migraine headache. You have blurred vision but you can still see. But in your opinion, you are absolutely positively certain that the backup QB would give your team a better chance to win.

What do you do?

J

If you are positively certain that your backup gives your team the better chance, you go to the locker room asap and give the reigns to your backup. Anything else would be completely foolish. And selfish.

We play to win the game.

 

[Grid71]

Absolutely stay in. I haven't read the replies, but that decision should be left to the coaches IMHO. As the player, I will play my best until they drag me out or the coach throws the white towel for me.

It shouldn't be the player's decision whether or not the team is better off with the back up in the game. That is up to the coach to say, Great effort! You've done everything you can son, but I just can't let you go back out there in this condition. Besides, that is what your backup is paid for, right?

For those who would "reluctantly hand over the reigns." The coach looks you in the eye and asks if you can gut it out. OR "Can you still play?" If you hesitate or get all wishy washy saying your reserve can do better than you, the coach has to pull the trigger.