Poker - You can easily see the cards of the guy next to you. (1 Viewer)

[fantasycurse42]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

I think you tell the guy once. That's standard courtesy in competition IMO.

What kind of competition are you talking about? I've never been aware of any rules to help my opponent in competition.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I waffle on this one. I have zero sympathy for the guy next to me, the problem is you are cheating the other players at the table due to an unfair, unskilled advantage. Because of that I will tell him I can see his cards easily. However if after I warn him a few times and now the table knows that this guy is basically showing me his hand I feel all cards are on the table and nobody is being cheated. I am not going to alter what I do every hand because some nimrod can't keep his cards hidden. I am certainly not going to fold to be nice. I don't go out of my way to look at other people's hands, but there is only so much you can do before you are basically penalizing yourself for some other idiot.

If it is a friendly game, we would probably all start throwing pretzels at him to correct the behavior.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Everyone in the FFA is always so morally intact.

If this was poker, Id be calling all your bluffs

Yah but we'd be looking at your cards!

If my cards were showing, Id expect to be exploited.

Good point.

 

[mr roboto]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

 

[mr roboto]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

I think you tell the guy once. That's standard courtesy in competition IMO.

What kind of competition are you talking about? I've never been aware of any rules to help my opponent in competition.

I didn't say rules there chief. I said courtesy.

 

[SacramentoBob]

That's fine but I disagree about the 99% part. I have seen similar threads on 2+2 and the majority of serious poker players would tell the guy that he's showing his cards.

Telling people what you'd do when being scrutinized publicly and what you'd actually do can be different things.

 

[Porkchop Express]

lol@ calling this cheating.

You're right. It's not cheating. But it's a moral gray area. I don't think it's a scumbag move to not tell him. But it's not exactly good sportsmanship either.

This is a fair assessment, but I don't gamble to win the participation trophy.

I guess trying to live my life as morally and ethically as I can means more to me than money.

Are you trying to get the deluxe suite in heaven?

If I were showing my cards, I'd fully expect the other guy to take advantage. It's your responsibility to protect your cards.

Yeah that's what its all about, the deluxe suite in heaven. It guides all my gambling tendencies.

 

[Brady Marino]

lol@ calling this cheating.

You're right. It's not cheating. But it's a moral gray area. I don't think it's a scumbag move to not tell him. But it's not exactly good sportsmanship either.

This is a fair assessment, but I don't gamble to win the participation trophy.

I guess trying to live my life as morally and ethically as I can means more to me than money.

Are you trying to get the deluxe suite in heaven?

If I were showing my cards, I'd fully expect the other guy to take advantage. It's your responsibility to protect your cards.

Yeah that's what its all about, the deluxe suite in heaven. It guides all my gambling tendencies.

It sure would appear that way. Remind me to play poker with you sometime.

 

[UniAlias]

I waffle on this one. I have zero sympathy for the guy next to me, the problem is you are cheating the other players at the table due to an unfair, unskilled advantage. Because of that I will tell him I can see his cards easily. However if after I warn him a few times and now the table knows that this guy is basically showing me his hand I feel all cards are on the table and nobody is being cheated. I am not going to alter what I do every hand because some nimrod can't keep his cards hidden. I am certainly not going to fold to be nice. I don't go out of my way to look at other people's hands, but there is only so much you can do before you are basically penalizing yourself for some other idiot.

If it is a friendly game, we would probably all start throwing pretzels at him to correct the behavior.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me

I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Telling strangers they're showing their cards is an EV- move. Not surprised hat some of you would make the mistake of alerting the fish.

 

[UniAlias]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me

I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me

I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

 

[DiStefano]

You guys probably think card counters are cheating the casino.

 

[Porkchop Express]

lol@ calling this cheating.

You're right. It's not cheating. But it's a moral gray area. I don't think it's a scumbag move to not tell him. But it's not exactly good sportsmanship either.

This is a fair assessment, but I don't gamble to win the participation trophy.

I guess trying to live my life as morally and ethically as I can means more to me than money.

Are you trying to get the deluxe suite in heaven?

If I were showing my cards, I'd fully expect the other guy to take advantage. It's your responsibility to protect your cards.

Yeah that's what its all about, the deluxe suite in heaven. It guides all my gambling tendencies.

It sure would appear that way. Remind me to play poker with you sometime.

Why would I want to play with a doosh?

 

[Psychopav]

lol@ calling this cheating.

You're right. It's not cheating. But it's a moral gray area. I don't think it's a scumbag move to not tell him. But it's not exactly good sportsmanship either.

This is a fair assessment, but I don't gamble to win the participation trophy.

I guess trying to live my life as morally and ethically as I can means more to me than money.

Are you trying to get the deluxe suite in heaven?

If I were showing my cards, I'd fully expect the other guy to take advantage. It's your responsibility to protect your cards.

Holding yourself to a higher moral standard than you hold others is what being non-judgemental, humble, and upstanding is all about.

 

[mr roboto]

You guys probably think card counters are cheating the casino.

Nope. They are using public info and their own intellectual skill. Good for them. The scenario in question here is one player gaining information not public, and knowing this information is not part of the standard game play. They are receiving an upper hand over the rest at the table due to a bit of negligence from one player. Not illegal, but not really how the game is meant to be played.

 

[FUBAR]

I was playing some Hold 'em at the local casino last night. The guy directly to my right had a weird way of looking at his cards - almost at a angle. Because of this, it was incredibly easy to see his cards every single time. If I didn't want to see them, I had to purposely look away.

Curious about everyone's feelings about what to do in this situation? I guess I feel it's up to each player to protect his hand. As you can imagine, this guy went home broke after losing many big pots to me.

Dirtbag move. I've always told people they're exposing cards. Not a big fan of cheating.

Lot of scumbags in here

Riiiiiiight. And if the guy has a tell by twitching his nose when he's bluffing, you point it out to him, because you wouldn't want to cheat.

He's at a game and it's his responsibility to keep his cards out of view.

Really depends on level of competition.

Friends - easy, tell him.

Stranger who looks like he's over his head - i tell him but it's not cheating not to.

In a setting where he should know better - look if he's showing

 

[mr roboto]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

Of course you would, because it's a public question and makes you look good.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I was playing some Hold 'em at the local casino last night. The guy directly to my right had a weird way of looking at his cards - almost at a angle. Because of this, it was incredibly easy to see his cards every single time. If I didn't want to see them, I had to purposely look away.

Curious about everyone's feelings about what to do in this situation? I guess I feel it's up to each player to protect his hand. As you can imagine, this guy went home broke after losing many big pots to me.

Dirtbag move. I've always told people they're exposing cards. Not a big fan of cheating.

Lot of scumbags in here

Riiiiiiight. And if the guy has a tell by twitching his nose when he's bluffing, you point it out to him, because you wouldn't want to cheat.

He's at a game and it's his responsibility to keep his cards out of view.

In a setting where he should know better - look if he's showing

A casino is a setting where someone should know better

 

[Brady Marino]

lol@ calling this cheating.

You're right. It's not cheating. But it's a moral gray area. I don't think it's a scumbag move to not tell him. But it's not exactly good sportsmanship either.

This is a fair assessment, but I don't gamble to win the participation trophy.

I guess trying to live my life as morally and ethically as I can means more to me than money.

Are you trying to get the deluxe suite in heaven?

If I were showing my cards, I'd fully expect the other guy to take advantage. It's your responsibility to protect your cards.

Yeah that's what its all about, the deluxe suite in heaven. It guides all my gambling tendencies.

It sure would appear that way. Remind me to play poker with you sometime.

Why would I want to play with a doosh?

Do you get a choice in casinos now?

Look, if it were a friendly game where I'm trying to have fun, yes I say something. In a casino where my goal is to walk out with a profit, I don't.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Hopefully the next time this happens to someone, they alert the guy, the guy then proceeds to felt them, & they leave out $1,000...

On the ride home down a rack, that person can hold their head high

 

[DiStefano]

You guys remind me of the old story about the three guys about to be guillotined, the last one being an engineer. The guillotine sticks for the first two, and they get freed. The third guy, with his head on the guillotine, says: "I see what the problem is, there a wood chip caught in wooden frame of the blade". Now that's a guy I can admire and respect; he didn't want an unfair advantage.

 

[dparker713]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

Of course you would, because it's a public question and makes you look good.

For most card rooms its actually a requirement to inform the dealer, so no, its not a question of it being public or making one's self look good.

Exploiting weak players, in all their forms, is how you make money and there is nothing about it that is cheating.

 

[FUBAR]

I was playing some Hold 'em at the local casino last night. The guy directly to my right had a weird way of looking at his cards - almost at a angle. Because of this, it was incredibly easy to see his cards every single time. If I didn't want to see them, I had to purposely look away.

Curious about everyone's feelings about what to do in this situation? I guess I feel it's up to each player to protect his hand. As you can imagine, this guy went home broke after losing many big pots to me.

Dirtbag move. I've always told people they're exposing cards. Not a big fan of cheating.

Lot of scumbags in here

Riiiiiiight. And if the guy has a tell by twitching his nose when he's bluffing, you point it out to him, because you wouldn't want to cheat.

He's at a game and it's his responsibility to keep his cards out of view.

In a setting where he should know better - look if he's showing

A casino is a setting where someone should know better

I wrote that poorly. Even in casino, if the guy looks out of place and I assume this guy did, i might wait and see if he figures it out but if he acts like a decent guy over his head, i tell him.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I'm in the tell him once camp. Then I leave it up to other players sitting across from him to keep the reminders going if they feel they are at a disadvantage, which of course they are. Oh, I also buy the guy drinks so he stays loose and stupid.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

Maybe I'm just weird.

Perhaps it's not technically cheating, but that's how I classify purposefully viewing another player's cards and using that information against him/others. Doesn't seem like a moral gray issue, just a total scumbag move.

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

honestly I do a lot of looking around the table when I play just to try and spot things like this. Few people will divert their eyes if they can see until after they have looked. bigger fear is it is being done on purpose.

 

[Otis]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

I think you at least have to offer him your wife. To be polite.

 

[mr roboto]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

Of course you would, because it's a public question and makes you look good.

For most card rooms its actually a requirement to inform the dealer, so no, its not a question of it being public or making one's self look good.

Exploiting weak players, in all their forms, is how you make money and there is nothing about it that is cheating.

I never said it was cheating. Something can be legal and unethical. I'm not debating whether or not it would be allowed in poker, I'm debating whether or not it is ethical. I do not believe it's ethical. I believe the ethical thing to do is to inform another player that they are giving you or anybody else information that they're not supposed to have. If you tell him once, and he continues to show his cards there would no longer be an ethical requirement for me or any other player to not look at the cards.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

I think you at least have to offer him your wife. To be polite.

That's ridiculous, but if you have a single daughter of legal age, I think that's fair.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Are there poker rooms in San Juan, PR?

 

[the moops]

if he seems like a good dude I tell him. if he seems dooshy no way I tell him

 

[dparker713]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

Of course you would, because it's a public question and makes you look good.

For most card rooms its actually a requirement to inform the dealer, so no, its not a question of it being public or making one's self look good.

Exploiting weak players, in all their forms, is how you make money and there is nothing about it that is cheating.

I never said it was cheating. Something can be legal and unethical. I'm not debating whether or not it would be allowed in poker, I'm debating whether or not it is ethical. I do not believe it's ethical. I believe the ethical thing to do is to inform another player that they are giving you or anybody else information that they're not supposed to have. If you tell him once, and he continues to show his cards there would no longer be an ethical requirement for me or any other player to not look at the cards.

Gambling ethics? Well, that's interesting.

 

[TxBuckeye]

Not surprised a couple of New York guys would be so slimy.

Not sure what is slimy about it. The OP said he wasn't trying to sneak peeks at his neighbors cards, they were out in his field of view.

Seriously... Do you exchange numbers, share family recipes, & talk about the family with your buddy the random stranger showing you his cards, trying to take your money?

You act like he's trying to personally rob you. If you feel fine with winning like that I guess I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't.

I don't recall saying he was trying to rob me I did say he is trying to take my money, am I mistaken?

If the dealer mistakenly flips a card for a split second when dealing and you catch a glimpse of it, do you answer honestly when he asks if you saw it? Or is that just another instance where you use every possible edge to your advantage to win more money?

Apples to oranges, but I admit I saw the card.

Of course you would, because it's a public question and makes you look good.

You could personally know full well you'd rob the guy blind without ever saying a word for the very same reason.

 

[tom22406]

If it's a home game with buddies I tell them without hesitation.At a casino with strangers it's a very tough call and would depend if the guy has been nice/friendly towards me or not.In the higher stakes games(for me)I would use it to my advantage,lower I may say something.

 

[Flying V]

"If God didn't want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep."

Calvera - The Magnificent Seven

 

[Otis]

if he seems like a good dude I tell him. if he seems dooshy no way I tell him

I'll own up to this. If we end up chatting and he seems like a good guy, I probably tell him. If no interaction/total stranger or worse, he gets the hammer.

 

[fred_1_15301]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

 

[Run It Up]

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

If you're representing the nut flush but the villain knows you don't have the nut flush I'm pretty confident that ANY flush is good in that situation or they are calling you regardless so its a nonissue.

 

[The General]

I would tell him once. If he stops showing fine, if he keeps on doing it then its fair game.

Yup.

 

[Christo]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

But those bastards are trying to take my money!

 

[mr roboto]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

They are selfish.

 

[dparker713]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I played with a guy one night who flipped both of his cards over and just kept raising everyone preflop. It was weird. The dealer called the floor guy over and said, "the guy keeps showing his cards!" the floor guy said if he wants to play with his cards face up more power to him.

It was a NL game, and he was trying to prove a point that no one had the stones to stay in a hand with him preflop. I was acting like I wasn't paying attention hoping to get a nice starting hand, it never came. This guy just ran over the table for a good 30 minutes. Funny thing was his cards were always better than mine. I was getting 2 4 os, 3 8 os, 27 and so on. He would bet 125 bucks preflop on his starting hands, and go all in on the flop regardless of what the flop was. In fact, he would say all in before the cards flopped.

Once he was called and than the same dealer said, "it wasn't his turn to act so the player saying all in before the flop doesn't count!" It was comical. And, very irritating at the same time.

 

[fasteddie_21]

I would think there is a lot of fishing in here, but, the way the board has gone, I think I'd be more surprised if there was

 

[UniAlias]

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

If you're representing the nut flush but the villain knows you don't have the nut flush I'm pretty confident that ANY flush is good in that situation or they are calling you regardless so its a nonissue.

wat?

Let's say opponent has a king high flush. You're trying to push him off it by representing an ace high flush. Sure, most players aren't folding anyway but that's irrelevant. The fact that he now knows for certain that he has the nuts effects you and everyone else at the table.

If you don't like that scenario make up another one. There are countless situations which would give the player a significant advantage simply by knowing two cards that are no longer in play.

 

[fred_1_15301]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

Sure it is. The other players have done nothing wrong to be put in a position of disadvantage against you. Who cares if its a minimal advantage. An advantage is still an advantage..........

 

[dparker713]

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

If you're representing the nut flush but the villain knows you don't have the nut flush I'm pretty confident that ANY flush is good in that situation or they are calling you regardless so its a nonissue.

wat?

Let's say opponent has a king high flush. You're trying to push him off it by representing an ace high flush. Sure, most players aren't folding anyway but that's irrelevant. The fact that he now knows for certain that he has the nuts effects you and everyone else at the table.

If you don't like that scenario make up another one. There are countless situations which would give the player a significant advantage simply by knowing two cards that are no longer in play.

There are countless more where there is little to no advantage.

 

[dparker713]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

Sure it is. The other players have done nothing wrong to be put in a position of disadvantage against you. Who cares if its a minimal advantage. An advantage is still an advantage..........

When you're on the button, other players are also at a disadvantage. However, its not an unfair advantage. Weak players, just as cards, even out over time.

 

[fred_1_15301]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

Sure it is. The other players have done nothing wrong to be put in a position of disadvantage against you. Who cares if its a minimal advantage. An advantage is still an advantage..........

When you're on the button, other players are also at a disadvantage. However, its not an unfair advantage. Weak players, just as cards, even out over time.

Would you have a problem if 2 friends sat next to each other, never said a word, but flashed their cards to each other preflop before each hand? Re: your button analogy--not sure what point you're trying to make. That's an advantage that's built into the rules of the game.