Poker - You can easily see the cards of the guy next to you. (1 Viewer)

[flapgreen]

I would tell him once. If he stops showing fine, if he keeps on doing it then its fair game.

This.

yes

 

[dparker713]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

Sure it is. The other players have done nothing wrong to be put in a position of disadvantage against you. Who cares if its a minimal advantage. An advantage is still an advantage..........

When you're on the button, other players are also at a disadvantage. However, its not an unfair advantage. Weak players, just as cards, even out over time.

Would you have a problem if 2 friends sat next to each other, never said a word, but flashed their cards to each other preflop before each hand? Re: your button analogy--not sure what point you're trying to make. That's an advantage that's built into the rules of the game.

You are not allowed to intentionally show your cards to another player without intentionally showing your cards to all players.

Listen, if you want to make more rules for yourself than there are in the game, fine. But other players inadvertently exposing their hole cards is an advantage all players will experience over the long run. There is nothing unfair about this.

 

[fred_1_15301]

It's not only an unfair advantage against this one player. It's an unfair advantage against the entire table (who did nothing wrong). How do you guys justify that?

There is nothing unfair about the advantage you have. You have done nothing wrong to gain this advantage. Also, it is a very minimal advantage over the other players at the table.

Sure it is. The other players have done nothing wrong to be put in a position of disadvantage against you. Who cares if its a minimal advantage. An advantage is still an advantage..........

When you're on the button, other players are also at a disadvantage. However, its not an unfair advantage. Weak players, just as cards, even out over time.

Would you have a problem if 2 friends sat next to each other, never said a word, but flashed their cards to each other preflop before each hand? Re: your button analogy--not sure what point you're trying to make. That's an advantage that's built into the rules of the game.

You are not allowed to intentionally show your cards to another player without intentionally showing your cards to all players.

Listen, if you want to make more rules for yourself than there are in the game, fine. But other players inadvertently exposing their hole cards is an advantage all players will experience over the long run. There is nothing unfair about this.

Whatever--I disagree. That's fine.

 

[Guest]

I'd have told him. My self respect is worth more than I could win at a poker table on a given night.

 

[Run It Up]

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

If you're representing the nut flush but the villain knows you don't have the nut flush I'm pretty confident that ANY flush is good in that situation or they are calling you regardless so its a nonissue.

wat?

Let's say opponent has a king high flush. You're trying to push him off it by representing an ace high flush. Sure, most players aren't folding anyway but that's irrelevant. The fact that he now knows for certain that he has the nuts effects you and everyone else at the table.

If you don't like that scenario make up another one. There are countless situations which would give the player a significant advantage simply by knowing two cards that are no longer in play.

The villain is never going to lay down the king high flush there.

The point is, no I don't agree with you. If I know someone else can see someones whole cards but I can't, I will say something, if I can see them I don't care who else can see them I'm not going to say anything. Its up to the player to protect their hand, and its up to you to pay attention to the table.

 

[fasteddie_21]

Let's say you're in a hand and are attempting to bluff a pot representing the nut flush, but your opponent had already seen his neighbor's hand which contained the nut flush ace and uses that information to beat you. You guys wouldn't consider that essentially cheating?

If you're representing the nut flush but the villain knows you don't have the nut flush I'm pretty confident that ANY flush is good in that situation or they are calling you regardless so its a nonissue.

wat?

Let's say opponent has a king high flush. You're trying to push him off it by representing an ace high flush. Sure, most players aren't folding anyway but that's irrelevant. The fact that he now knows for certain that he has the nuts effects you and everyone else at the table.

If you don't like that scenario make up another one. There are countless situations which would give the player a significant advantage simply by knowing two cards that are no longer in play.

The villain is never going to lay down the king high flush there.

The point is, no I don't agree with you. If I know someone else can see someones whole cards but I can't, I will say something, if I can see them I don't care who else can see them I'm not going to say anything. Its up to the player to protect their hand, and its up to you to pay attention to the table.

This is just plain wrong, IMO. But, I guess, that's how things just are these days.

 

[Zow]

Tough call. I've had this come up dozens of times back when I played way too much live in Vegas and Laughlin. In Laughlin, where it's a smaller community and reputation is important, I always spoke up or would signal the dealer (or make an over the top silly gesture showing me try to not look). Older people generally had some ailments.

In Vegas I'd usually just weigh out the situation. If the guy is a doosh, while not actively looking I wouldn't say anything. Decent guy and I'd employ the one warning rule.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Look, the guys who would tell in a casino are true FBGs, no getting around it. Odds are they prob win 8-10 racks every time they step in the casino, tip out 35% of that to the help, spread another 40% of that back to the table, & ship the remaining 25% off to charity. These dudes aren't in this game to win money, they're playing for everyone else.

I feel like a scumbag for pouncing on the fish at the poker tables, I need to emulate this tried and true FBG behavior a little more

 

[Short Corner]

I played with a guy one night who flipped both of his cards over and just kept raising everyone preflop. It was weird. The dealer called the floor guy over and said, "the guy keeps showing his cards!" the floor guy said if he wants to play with his cards face up more power to him.

It was a NL game, and he was trying to prove a point that no one had the stones to stay in a hand with him preflop. I was acting like I wasn't paying attention hoping to get a nice starting hand, it never came. This guy just ran over the table for a good 30 minutes. Funny thing was his cards were always better than mine. I was getting 2 4 os, 3 8 os, 27 and so on. He would bet 125 bucks preflop on his starting hands, and go all in on the flop regardless of what the flop was. In fact, he would say all in before the cards flopped.

Once he was called and than the same dealer said, "it wasn't his turn to act so the player saying all in before the flop doesn't count!" It was comical. And, very irritating at the same time.

When acting out of turn, if checked or called to, the action stands.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Look, the guys who would tell in a casino are true FBGs, no getting around it. Odds are they prob win 8-10 racks every time they step in the casino, tip out 35% of that to the help, spread another 40% of that back to the table, & ship the remaining 25% off to charity. These dudes aren't in this game to win money, they're playing for everyone else.

I feel like a scumbag for pouncing on the fish at the poker tables, I need to emulate this tried and true FBG behavior a little more

No need to be sarcastic just because you have questionable morals.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

 

[fantasycurse42]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

What if he has QQ? What if he is chasing the flush? What if I don't give a ####

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

What if he has QQ? What if he is chasing the flush? What if I don't give a ####

I get that you don't give a ####. I have no problem with that. I do think it's a little ludicrous to think that less than 1% of the poker playing population would mention something. We know that's not true just based on this poll.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I would tell him once. If he stops showing fine, if he keeps on doing it then its fair game.

I have been in this spot before and this is what I have done.

 

[fantasycurse42]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

What if he has QQ? What if he is chasing the flush? What if I don't give a ####

I get that you don't give a ####. I have no problem with that. I do think it's a little ludicrous to think that less than 1% of the poker playing population would mention something. We know that's not true just based on this poll.

I'm willing to bet a lower percent actually would tell then this poll suggests. Sitting behind a comp everyone is like "yea, I'd def say something... It's the right thing to do." Put this person at a table with good money and someone to their left with stacks on stacks and that number drops at a high rate.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

What if he has QQ? What if he is chasing the flush? What if I don't give a ####

I get that you don't give a ####. I have no problem with that. I do think it's a little ludicrous to think that less than 1% of the poker playing population would mention something. We know that's not true just based on this poll.

I'm willing to bet a lower percent actually would tell then this poll suggests. Sitting behind a comp everyone is like "yea, I'd def say something... It's the right thing to do." Put this person at a table with good money and someone to their left with stacks on stacks and that number drops at a high rate.

Fair enough but I think the percentage is still higher than you think.

 

[Short Corner]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

 

[LittleLarry]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

 

[mr roboto]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

Perfectly fair!!!!

 

[fred_1_15301]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

Perfectly fair!!!!

Absolutely.

 

[fred_1_15301]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

This is just one hand where you were able to use the advantage to manipulate the table. How many other big pots did you win in this fashion? If I'm playing for 4 hours, all it takes is one or two big pots to go home a winner.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

This is just one hand where you were able to use the advantage to manipulate the table. How many other big pots did you win in this fashion? If I'm playing for 4 hours, all it takes is one or two big pots to go home a winner.

God forbid.

 

[fred_1_15301]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

This is just one hand where you were able to use the advantage to manipulate the table. How many other big pots did you win in this fashion? If I'm playing for 4 hours, all it takes is one or two big pots to go home a winner.

God forbid.

What's your point? Of course we all want to go home a winner. Some of us just want to do it fairly.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I will share a hand that I did feel a little guilty for the other players at the table.

It was a kill pot - double the normal limits. One of the blinds was the kill, and I was one off the button. The card-shower displays QJ offsuit. Everyone folds to him, he raises! I look down and I've got wired 10s. Of course I re-raise it. Comes to the button and he caps it. Both blinds call. Card-shower calls, I call. So we've got 5 way action to the flop with the max number of raises.

Flop comes K K 5. Both blinds check. Then the guy does exactly what I was hoping he was going to do - he bets! Well you know what I did. I raised it. The button mucks, both blinds muck. Comes back around to him with nothing but queen high, he thinks about it a second, then mucks. I won a huge pot on the flop without much of a fight.

This is just one hand where you were able to use the advantage to manipulate the table. How many other big pots did you win in this fashion? If I'm playing for 4 hours, all it takes is one or two big pots to go home a winner.

God forbid.

What's your point? Of course we all want to go home a winner. Some of us just want to do it fairly.

Yeah, and some of feel it's the responsibility of the player to protect their cards. If they don't, that's on them, not us. It's bizarre to me that some people feel it's MY responsibility if YOU show your cards to the world.

 

[NIU Kicker]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

Actually you should take a minute and carefully re-read my original post (not the part that was edited by Short Corner). If you still can't understand why a chop is impossible, I'll explain it to you. I suspect when you actually read my post correctly, you'll get it.

 

[the moops]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

 

[spOOfy]

for the people who say tell the guy, what if it just happened on 1 hand? do you stop the action of the game and tell the table, wait, i know this guy's cards, we should flip them over so everyone can see or at least just kill the hand?

 

[dparker713]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

If you're worried in that situation, you're kinda a #####. Even without information of the other player's hand, the likelihood of the other player having a 5 Is very low.

But sure, that's an advantage I have in that hand. However, it is also an advantage you will play against about equally if you play over a long enough time horizon. Not informing the loose player is playing within the rules, as such it is a fair advantage. Everyone at the table is playing by the same rules. Each player will have advantages/disadvantages on every hand, but as long as they're playing within the rules of the game your characterization is wrong.

 

[dparker713]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

 

[dparker713]

Look, the guys who would tell in a casino are true FBGs, no getting around it. Odds are they prob win 8-10 racks every time they step in the casino, tip out 35% of that to the help, spread another 40% of that back to the table, & ship the remaining 25% off to charity. These dudes aren't in this game to win money, they're playing for everyone else.

I feel like a scumbag for pouncing on the fish at the poker tables, I need to emulate this tried and true FBG behavior a little more

No need to be sarcastic just because you have questionable morals.

I'd love for you to state which commandment this is breaking. Afterall, gambling itself is a sin in the Judeo-Christian tradition. So the idea that there is a moral way to gamble seems odd from that perspective. Or are you following an Eastern philosophy? I'm not particularly familiar with those, so I'd appreciate a walk through of how that would apply.

 

[UniAlias]

It's amusing that quite a few of the posters in here advocating looking at cards don't seem to understand the game very well. I guess that makes sense and explains why they would feel the need to look at other player's cards.

 

[mr roboto]

It's amusing that quite a few of the posters in here advocating looking at cards don't seem to understand the game very well. I guess that makes sense and explains why they would feel the need to look at other player's cards.

Bingo.

 

[tjnc09]

If the guy is really old and doing it blatantly (lifting them in the air), I will tell them. If they continue to do it, I will call the floor. I have has this several times and I would never feel right taking that type of persons money.

That being said, covering your cards is really easy. It takes 30 seconds to go online and figure out optimal ways to make sure they remain hidden. Leaving them exposed is only a sign of laziness - that's their problem.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

If you're worried in that situation, you're kinda a #####. Even without information of the other player's hand, the likelihood of the other player having a 5 Is very low.

But sure, that's an advantage I have in that hand. However, it is also an advantage you will play against about equally if you play over a long enough time horizon. Not informing the loose player is playing within the rules, as such it is a fair advantage. Everyone at the table is playing by the same rules. Each player will have advantages/disadvantages on every hand, but as long as they're playing within the rules of the game your characterization is wrong.

No offense but for you to make the bolded statement makes me realize that you don't have a clue about the dynamics of poker. I play a lot of live and online poker and I can tell you that if you're not able to lay down 4,5 suited on that board in certain situations (depending on how the hand plays out and your opponents' actions), you are basically a fish. There is a lot involved in poker where you need to not only understand the math but also understand your opponent's ranges. The way your post reads is almost like "I have 3 of a kind, I must go all in no matter what lolz". In my scenario, he has effectively taken out a large number of possible hands that he can lose to from his opponent's range. There are only 3 combinations of hands that he loses to and those are all extremely unlikely given the way the hand played out.

Look it's clear you don't believe this is an unfair advantage. I completely disagree with that but to each their own. For the record, I'm not saying he's cheating. I'm simply saying he has an unfair advantage against the entire table (not just the moron)..

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

Oof

 

[fred_1_15301]

It's amusing that quite a few of the posters in here advocating looking at cards don't seem to understand the game very well. I guess that makes sense and explains why they would feel the need to look at other player's cards.

 

[dparker713]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

If you're worried in that situation, you're kinda a #####. Even without information of the other player's hand, the likelihood of the other player having a 5 Is very low.

But sure, that's an advantage I have in that hand. However, it is also an advantage you will play against about equally if you play over a long enough time horizon. Not informing the loose player is playing within the rules, as such it is a fair advantage. Everyone at the table is playing by the same rules. Each player will have advantages/disadvantages on every hand, but as long as they're playing within the rules of the game your characterization is wrong.

No offense but for you to make the bolded statement makes me realize that you don't have a clue about the dynamics of poker. I play a lot of live and online poker and I can tell you that if you're not able to lay down 4,5 suited on that board in certain situations (depending on how the hand plays out and your opponents' actions), you are basically a fish. There is a lot involved in poker where you need to not only understand the math but also understand your opponent's ranges. The way your post reads is almost like "I have 3 of a kind, I must go all in no matter what lolz". In my scenario, he has effectively taken out a large number of possible hands that he can lose to from his opponent's range. There are only 3 combinations of hands that he loses to and those are all extremely unlikely given the way the hand played out.

Look it's clear you don't believe this is an unfair advantage. I completely disagree with that but to each their own. For the record, I'm not saying he's cheating. I'm simply saying he has an unfair advantage against the entire table (not just the moron)..

No, I'm saying he check raised you off a limp-in on the button. You think QQ presses the action like that? Maybe, but if he already was playing passive, I doubt it. As for 5x, also not particularly likely. Possible, but you just bet 2.5 time the BB and he comes back at you with a 7.5 BB bet, hardly a huge bet. You've also neglected to mention how stacked anyone is, but on a fairly standard max buy table, you've both got plenty left behind after his bet. Him bullying is just as likely as him having any real hand, and him having Qx or even a non-queen pocket pair is a more likely play in this situation. Your read of the situation sounds more like "OMG, I've got a small kicker; I must be screwed; he check-raised me"

Now, I haven't played much live poker the last few years, but I do have a few tax returns that say I used to be atleast decent.

 

[dparker713]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

Oof

?

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

If you're worried in that situation, you're kinda a #####. Even without information of the other player's hand, the likelihood of the other player having a 5 Is very low.

But sure, that's an advantage I have in that hand. However, it is also an advantage you will play against about equally if you play over a long enough time horizon. Not informing the loose player is playing within the rules, as such it is a fair advantage. Everyone at the table is playing by the same rules. Each player will have advantages/disadvantages on every hand, but as long as they're playing within the rules of the game your characterization is wrong.

No offense but for you to make the bolded statement makes me realize that you don't have a clue about the dynamics of poker. I play a lot of live and online poker and I can tell you that if you're not able to lay down 4,5 suited on that board in certain situations (depending on how the hand plays out and your opponents' actions), you are basically a fish. There is a lot involved in poker where you need to not only understand the math but also understand your opponent's ranges. The way your post reads is almost like "I have 3 of a kind, I must go all in no matter what lolz". In my scenario, he has effectively taken out a large number of possible hands that he can lose to from his opponent's range. There are only 3 combinations of hands that he loses to and those are all extremely unlikely given the way the hand played out.

Look it's clear you don't believe this is an unfair advantage. I completely disagree with that but to each their own. For the record, I'm not saying he's cheating. I'm simply saying he has an unfair advantage against the entire table (not just the moron)..

No, I'm saying he check raised you off a limp-in on the button. You think QQ presses the action like that? Maybe, but if he already was playing passive, I doubt it. As for 5x, also not particularly likely. Possible, but you just bet 2.5 time the BB and he comes back at you with a 7.5 BB bet, hardly a huge bet. You've also neglected to mention how stacked anyone is, but on a fairly standard max buy table, you've both got plenty left behind after his bet. Him bullying is just as likely as him having any real hand, and him having Qx or even a non-queen pocket pair is a more likely play in this situation. Your read of the situation sounds more like "OMG, I've got a small kicker; I must be screwed; he check-raised me"

Now, I haven't played much live poker the last few years, but I do have a few tax returns that say I used to be atleast decent.

You're kind of missing the point of my original post. I laid out a scenario where the OP could use the extra information against another player on the table. If you don't think that in my scenario the OP has a huge advantage, I'm not sure what to tell you. Yes there are quite a few combinations of hands where the opponent raises with Qx or even a mid-pocket pair. There are also scenarios where the opponent raises with 5x. It depends on your read of the opponent how you would play the rest of that hand. With the added information, you don't need to worry about anything (except for QQ). You don't have to make any reads or difficult decisions on the flop raise because you already know what he does not have.



Off topic, but I would almost always call his 3x raise on the flop and then reevaluate on the turn. Thats for another thread though.......

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

Oof

?

0.1% chance of that happening. There is a better probability that I can convince you that this is an unfair advantage...........

 

[dparker713]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

Oof

?

0.1% chance of that happening. There is a better probability that I can convince you that this is an unfair advantage...........

More like 0.3%, but it is the only way for a split pot.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

Could be runner-runner QQ.

Oof

?

0.1% chance of that happening. There is a better probability that I can convince you that this is an unfair advantage...........

More like 0.3%, but it is the only way for a split pot.

Yup .3 is correct. I forgot to count the third queen.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Wouldn't say a word.

 

[PatsWillWin]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

My God. It is unlikely that the 4-high kicker is going to play. Most likely outcome is a chop.

 

[the moops]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.

Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

My God. It is unlikely that the 4-high kicker is going to play. Most likely outcome is a chop.

Huh?

Most likely outcome is one guy has three 5's and the other guy doesn't. Cause you know, the other guy folded the fourth 5.

The kicker is irrelevant

 

[UniAlias]

Wouldn't say a word.

My God. It is unlikely that the 4-high kicker is going to play. Most likely outcome is a chop.

It's amusing that quite a few of the posters in here advocating looking at cards don't seem to understand the game very well. I guess that makes sense and explains why they would feel the need to look at other player's cards.

 

[PatsWillWin]

#### me, I misread the hand. I didn't realize the guy you know holds 2,5 folds.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For those who think it's not an unfair advantage (e.g. Dparker), here is a scenario. You hold 4,5 suited and limp in early position. You see your neighbor fold 2,5 off. Flop comes 5,5,q with one other player in hand who has position on you. You lead flop with pot size bet and he raises 3x. Now had you not seen the card, that puts you in a very tough position. With that extra information, you know that you have the virtual nuts are probably chopping. Oh well, tough #### for that guy I guess because I'm here to win money!

FYP

What are you talking about? In my scenario, how are you chopping?

Take a minute and think this one through.Better example would have been your A-5 vs his K-5.

He said the guy with the other 5 folded. He is not chopping this pot

My God. It is unlikely that the 4-high kicker is going to play. Most likely outcome is a chop.

Huh?Most likely outcome is one guy has three 5's and the other guy doesn't. Cause you know, the other guy folded the fourth 5.

The kicker is irrelevant

It seems like a few people couldn't comprehend my scenario. Perhaps I should have taken advantage of the bold and italic functions.