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Police shot a man 20 times in his back yard, thinking he had a gun. It was a cellphone (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter 2Squirrels1Nut
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
Do you have to pay for the talking points on a word by word basis, or can they be purchased in bulk?
Weebs210
Footballguy
I could ghost write for you for a fee if that is what you are asking. Currently I don't have a set price but we could negotiate in pm.
dkp993
Footballguy
Must be nice to be such a shining example of a righteous perfect human being who as never made one bad decision in His life or ever broken the law. Hell I just did this morning driving on the freeway in to work. We should all hope to be as perfect as Weebs210.
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Weebs210
Footballguy
Refer to the part where I said following police commands if I'm suspected of something. I've made mistakes in my life, fortunately I followed instructions. If I didn't, I deserved to be beaten.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
I have only read the SacBee story on this, so my details could definitely be off. Here is what I think I understand:
1) a report came in of someone using a tool to break into cars in this neighborhood.
2) a police helicopter spotted the alleged actor and sent patrol units to the address.
3) the helicopter unit saw him trying to gain access to a home through the backyard sliding glass door using what was described as a tool bar.
4) patrol officers arrived on scene and suspect fled, jumping a fence.
5) officers in a foot pursuit chase suspect. He is seen on the side of a house.
6) officers give pursuit to backyard,( body cam footage available at this time.)
7) officers turn corner, see suspect. While giving orders to stop and comply, they withdraw, tactically around the corner of the house. Lead officer, with eyes on suspect calls out “gun” and starts firing his weapon.
8) second officer fires.
while tragic, this case does not tend to show any improprieties in proper procedure, or any hints of ulterior motives on the officers’ part.
1) a report came in of someone using a tool to break into cars in this neighborhood.
2) a police helicopter spotted the alleged actor and sent patrol units to the address.
3) the helicopter unit saw him trying to gain access to a home through the backyard sliding glass door using what was described as a tool bar.
4) patrol officers arrived on scene and suspect fled, jumping a fence.
5) officers in a foot pursuit chase suspect. He is seen on the side of a house.
6) officers give pursuit to backyard,( body cam footage available at this time.)
7) officers turn corner, see suspect. While giving orders to stop and comply, they withdraw, tactically around the corner of the house. Lead officer, with eyes on suspect calls out “gun” and starts firing his weapon.
8) second officer fires.
while tragic, this case does not tend to show any improprieties in proper procedure, or any hints of ulterior motives on the officers’ part.
dkp993
Footballguy
While I don’t disagree with your baseline argument (any real rational person really can’t) the problem is is it isn’t black or white and human being make bad decisions. I would be dead by now if it was black or white and I certainly wouldn’t have deserved it.
dkp993
Footballguy
Seeing a gun does not automatically mean the officer should fire. Police disarm people with guns all the time with out firing their weapon. It’s what they are trained to do.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
I think I disagree with you, but might just be misunderstanding your point. In this specific instance, with Officers in active pursuit of a suspect that is fleeing, who is discovered around a corner with an object that appears to be a gun (held at chest level- did I read that?) then, no. I believe you’re incorrect that they would try to disarm the suspect using non-lethal means. They are then authorized to use lethal force.
the moops
Footballguy
Weebs210
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
If I were an officer, I have to think I'd perceive these two situations differently. Breaking into empty cars on the parked in the neighborhood is one thing - breaking into a home is another. If someone is breaking into a home, after 9 PM (when people are typically home) - personally, I'm going to assume they are armed - especially in a city like Sacramento (in only the 9th percentile of cities "safety" by neighborhoodscout.com).
Also - the family is trying to raise money to bury him.....next to his younger brother who was "also a victim of gun violence". So sad.
dkp993
Footballguy
Yeah I think we just disagree. Nothing in this instance suggests aggressive behavior and warrants an aggressive response. Fleeing from a scene and possibly holding something in your hand does not warrant being shot. Police officers must be held to the highest possible standards of decision making. This is what we put them in the position to do. Even if it was a gun in the hand there is nothing that I’ve read that warrants a shooting. While we can understand that it’s a heightened situation, adrenaline is flowing and snap decisions get made, we must hold police officers accountable for their decisions in these situations. It’s heartbreaking and difficult and not a situation I would ever want to be faced with. But that shouldn’t allow us to let them off the hook because of it.
We train them, pay them and hold them accountable to making the right decision in these exact situations. Every police officer knows this when they signed up to become one. Every police officer knows that a standard traffic violation stop could end your life. It’s awful, but it’s the job and you know this going into it. Your job is to remain cool calm and collected and make the proper decision. They didn’t here, regardless of the fact that the guy was criminal and fleeing the scene.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Just based on this case I wouldn't be so at ease even with just car burglars.
http://www.cbs42.com/news/wife-describes-mike-gilottis-last-moments-on-the-stand-at-suspects-trial/868094836
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
Well, then, we definitely disagree. If officers are involved in a foot pursuit of a fleeing suspect, and that suspect produces a gun- that’s authorization of lethal force. Your standard of decision making doesn’t make any sense to me, based on all available evidence I have seen and supporting law and existing police procedure.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
"Deputies in the helicopter reported seeing a man armed with a "tool bar" in a nearby backyard"
"The airborne deputies said they saw the man use the "tool bar" to break a window"
"the helicopter deputies observed him running south, where he jumped a fence"
"He headed toward the front of the property, along the way looking into another car"
"Police said officers "gave the suspect commands to stop and show his hands," but that he "immediately fled from the officers and ran towards the back of the home."
"they pursued Clark and where he "turned and advanced towards the officers while holding an object which was extended in front of him."
All very passive indeed. And your understanding of justified use of force is completely wrong. If a suspect such as this has a gun, or perceived gun, in their hands and advances towards the officers with the object extended in front of him, then the use of force is justified.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Edit
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Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
http://www.theiacp.org/Portals/0/documents/pdfs/National_Consensus_Policy_On_Use_Of_Force.pdf
Justified use of force:
"Authorized Uses of Deadly Force. As with
all uses of force, when using deadly force, the
overarching guideline that applies to all situations is
that the force must be “objectively reasonable under
the totality of the circumstances.” The Consensus
Policy identifies two general circumstances in which
the use of deadly force may be warranted. The first
instance is to “protect the officer or others from
what is reasonably believed to be an immediate
threat of death or serious bodily injury.”15 Second,
law enforcement officers may use deadly force “to
prevent the escape of a fleeing subject when the
officer has probable cause to believe that the person
has committed, or intends to commit a felony
involving serious bodily injury or death, and the
officer reasonably believes that there is an imminent
risk of serious bodily injury or death to the officer
or another if the subject is not immediately
apprehended.”16 In such cases, a threat of further
violence, serious bodily injury, or death must
impose clear justification to use deadly force."
Justified use of force:
"Authorized Uses of Deadly Force. As with
all uses of force, when using deadly force, the
overarching guideline that applies to all situations is
that the force must be “objectively reasonable under
the totality of the circumstances.” The Consensus
Policy identifies two general circumstances in which
the use of deadly force may be warranted. The first
instance is to “protect the officer or others from
what is reasonably believed to be an immediate
threat of death or serious bodily injury.”15 Second,
law enforcement officers may use deadly force “to
prevent the escape of a fleeing subject when the
officer has probable cause to believe that the person
has committed, or intends to commit a felony
involving serious bodily injury or death, and the
officer reasonably believes that there is an imminent
risk of serious bodily injury or death to the officer
or another if the subject is not immediately
apprehended.”16 In such cases, a threat of further
violence, serious bodily injury, or death must
impose clear justification to use deadly force."
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
“Police Tuesday said a cinder block and a piece of aluminum similar to what would be used in a rain gutter were recovered from near the broken door and taken into evidence, though neither item was definitely identified as the "tool bar" seen by deputies in the helicopter.”
dkp993
Footballguy
None of the things you have listed above with the exception of the bolded would/should qualify as aggressive and enable the use of deadly force.
Now the bolded I have not seen or read anywhere else except for here in your post but if true would in my opinion justify the shooting.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
I would argue that resisting arrest is an aggressive response. It escalates an already tense situation, and it results in everyone being more aggressive. Would we like officers to have more awareness in ALL situations, sure? Do I expect officers to make the best decisions EVERY SINGLE TIME?!? I just can't expect that, sorry. We will have to disagree here.
dkp993
Footballguy
Fair enough we agree to disagree. For me when there’s life or death on the line accountability is paramount.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
You say this as though I don't feel the same way. You are just expecting the perfect outcome, and anything less is criminal on the part of police officers. I choose not to see it that way.
dkp993
Footballguy
Honestly I don’t claim to have any idea about how you feel and was in no way trying to insinuate that. Was just stating my opinion I apologize if it came off that way. But in that same vein you’re claiming I’m expecting a “perfect outcome”, I’ve never said that and in fact said the opposite, that we’re all human beings and make poor decisions. But that doesn’t excuse the accountability for the poor decisions regardless of the circumstance. Life is on the line, literally. And when you sign up to be a police officer you should expect the repercussions should you make the wrong decision. We must have higher expectations of them, police officers, as the power we afford them demands that.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
Gopher State
Footballguy
Then don’t run, seems simple if you don’t have anything to hideAmused to Death said:
Dedfin
Footballguy
Pretty disgusting that someone has this callous view of another fellow human's situation.
Dedfin
Footballguy
There were many different paths police officers could have taken for this to ultimately have everyone still alive. Do you apply the "I can't expect x to make a perfect decision everytime" to pilots? doctors?
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I work across the street from the CA State Capital building and have lived in or near Sacramento County for nearly 35 of my years. There are neighborhoods in Sac County without any street lights at all. The only lights on at night are the few homes that leave a porch light on or have motion sensor lighting. I don’t know if the neighborhood of the incident was completely dark, but it is entirely possible.Ditkaless Wonders said:
Calvitron Johnson
Footballguy
Sure it is. Say some nut with an AR-15 shoots up a place and then starts running away from cops (and right towards you) with the AR-15 still in his hands. Pretty sure you are voting for death ASAP.Amused to Death said:
dkp993
Footballguy
Good question. And I don’t have the answer. Smarter more experienced people in this field then I have failed to answer that question fully I presume. All I do know is accepting it as a difficult situation and simply saying he shouldn’t have run or he should have known better isn’t the answer.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The ambient light question, street lights, porch lights, and light coming out of windows is answered in the video. We do not have to speculate.
What if the cops decide not to shoot someone running away who may or may not have a gun and that person then goes on to kill a person or people? We would then have a 1000 page thread of people whining they didn't do enough.
The problem is that as police officers receive more criticism on questionable shootings like this the amount of qualified applicants will continue to decline. Why would any person with characteristics that make a good police officer want to risk their family and livelihood over a mistake made in a split second decision? If people are upset over the quality of police work today, I can't imagine the outrage in 5-10 years when the applicant pool is filled with people with terrible skill sets.
Can you imagine if we criticized emergency room surgeons every time one of their patients died after a split second decision went wrong? 
KCitons
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I have not read everything here, just the OP. That article says the police never identified themselves as police. I would be running if late at night people with guns approached me.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Weren't they just investigating someone breaking into cars? Why would we expect that person to then start killing people? It just seems like a massive escalation of the situation by the police.
Underachievers
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't know. I would like to think that the helicopter overhead following you would be a "dead" giveaway.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
One would think so.
Two guys with flashlights yelling "show me your hands" is pretty obvious too
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
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