Do you have to pay for the talking points on a word by word basis, or can they be purchased in bulk?You know how I avoid being killed or beaten by the police. Being a law abiding citizen and following police commands if I'm suspected of something. Maybe some people should try it.
I could ghost write for you for a fee if that is what you are asking. Currently I don't have a set price but we could negotiate in pm.Do you have to pay for the talking points on a word by word basis, or can they be purchased in bulk?
Must be nice to be such a shining example of a righteous perfect human being who as never made one bad decision in His life or ever broken the law. Hell I just did this morning driving on the freeway in to work. We should all hope to be as perfect as Weebs210.You know how I avoid being killed or beaten by the police. Being a law abiding citizen and following police commands if I'm suspected of something. Maybe some people should try it.
Refer to the part where I said following police commands if I'm suspected of something. I've made mistakes in my life, fortunately I followed instructions. If I didn't, I deserved to be beaten.Must be nice to be such a shining example of a righteous perfect human being who as never made one bad decision in His life or ever broken the law. Hell I just did this morning driving in to work. We should all hope to be as perfect as Weebs210.
While I don’t disagree with your baseline argument (any real rational person really can’t) the problem is is it isn’t black or white and human being make bad decisions. I would be dead by now if it was black or white and I certainly wouldn’t have deserved it.Refer to the part where I said following police commands if I'm suspected of something. I've made mistakes in my life, fortunately I followed instructions. If I didn't, I deserved to be beaten.
Seeing a gun does not automatically mean the officer should fire. Police disarm people with guns all the time with out firing their weapon. It’s what they are trained to do.I have only read the SacBee story on this, so my details could definitely be off. Here is what I think I understand:
1) a report came in of someone using a tool to break into cars in this neighborhood.
2) a police helicopter spotted the alleged actor and sent patrol units to the address.
3) the helicopter unit saw him trying to gain access to a home through the backyard sliding glass door using what was described as a tool bar.
4) patrol officers arrived on scene and suspect fled, jumping a fence.
5) officers in a foot pursuit chase suspect. He is seen on the side of a house.
6) officers give pursuit to backyard,( body cam footage available at this time.)
7) officers turn corner, see suspect. While giving orders to stop and comply, they withdraw, tactically around the corner of the house. Lead officer, with eyes on suspect calls out “gun” and starts firing his weapon.
8) second officer fires.
while tragic, this case does not tend to show any improprieties in proper procedure, or any hints of ulterior motives on the officers’ part.
I think I disagree with you, but might just be misunderstanding your point. In this specific instance, with Officers in active pursuit of a suspect that is fleeing, who is discovered around a corner with an object that appears to be a gun (held at chest level- did I read that?) then, no. I believe you’re incorrect that they would try to disarm the suspect using non-lethal means. They are then authorized to use lethal force.Seeing a gun does not automatically mean the officer should fire. Police disarm people with guns all the time with out firing their weapon. It’s what they are trained to do.
If I were an officer, I have to think I'd perceive these two situations differently. Breaking into empty cars on the parked in the neighborhood is one thing - breaking into a home is another. If someone is breaking into a home, after 9 PM (when people are typically home) - personally, I'm going to assume they are armed - especially in a city like Sacramento (in only the 9th percentile of cities "safety" by neighborhoodscout.com).1) a report came in of someone using a tool to break into cars in this neighborhood.
3) the helicopter unit saw him trying to gain access to a home through the backyard sliding glass door using what was described as a tool bar.
Yeah I think we just disagree. Nothing in this instance suggests aggressive behavior and warrants an aggressive response. Fleeing from a scene and possibly holding something in your hand does not warrant being shot. Police officers must be held to the highest possible standards of decision making. This is what we put them in the position to do. Even if it was a gun in the hand there is nothing that I’ve read that warrants a shooting. While we can understand that it’s a heightened situation, adrenaline is flowing and snap decisions get made, we must hold police officers accountable for their decisions in these situations. It’s heartbreaking and difficult and not a situation I would ever want to be faced with. But that shouldn’t allow us to let them off the hook because of it.I think I disagree with you, but might just be misunderstanding your point. In this specific instance, with Officers in active pursuit of a suspect that is fleeing, who is discovered around a corner with an object that appears to be a gun (held at chest level- did I read that?) then, no. I believe you’re incorrect that they would try to disarm the suspect using non-lethal means. They are then authorized to use lethal force.
Just based on this case I wouldn't be so at ease even with just car burglars.If I were an officer, I have to think I'd perceive these two situations differently. Breaking into empty cars on the parked in the neighborhood is one thing - breaking into a home is another. If someone is breaking into a home, after 9 PM (when people are typically home) - personally, I'm going to assume they are armed - especially in a city like Sacramento (in only the 9th percentile of cities "safety" by neighborhoodscout.com).
Also - the family is trying to raise money to bury him.....next to his younger brother who was "also a victim of gun violence". So sad.
Well, then, we definitely disagree. If officers are involved in a foot pursuit of a fleeing suspect, and that suspect produces a gun- that’s authorization of lethal force. Your standard of decision making doesn’t make any sense to me, based on all available evidence I have seen and supporting law and existing police procedure.Yeah I think we just disagree. Nothing in this instance suggests aggressive behavior and warrants an aggressive response. Fleeing from a scene and possibly holding something in your hand does not warrant being shot. Police officers must be held to the highest possible standards of decision making. This is what we put them in the position to do. Even if it was a gun in the hand there is nothing that I’ve read that warrants a shooting. While we can understand that it’s a heightened situation, adrenaline is flowing and snap decisions get made, we must hold police officers accountable for their decisions in these situations. It’s heartbreaking and difficult and not a situation I would ever want to be faced with. But that shouldn’t allow us to let them off the hook because of it.
We train them, pay them and hold them accountable to making the right decision in these exact situations. Every police officer knows this when they signed up to become one. Every police officer knows that a standard traffic violation stop could end your life. It’s awful, but it’s the job and you know this going into it. Your job is to remain cool calm and collected and make the proper decision. They didn’t here, regardless of the fact that the guy was criminal and fleeing the scene.
"Deputies in the helicopter reported seeing a man armed with a "tool bar" in a nearby backyard"Yeah I think we just disagree. Nothing in this instance suggests aggressive behavior and warrants an aggressive response. Fleeing from a scene and possibly holding something in your hand does not warrant being shot. Police officers must be held to the highest possible standards of decision making. This is what we put them in the position to do. Even if it was a gun in the hand there is nothing that I’ve read that warrants a shooting. While we can understand that it’s a heightened situation, adrenaline is flowing and snap decisions get made, we must hold police officers accountable for their decisions in these situations. It’s heartbreaking and difficult and not a situation I would ever want to be faced with. But that shouldn’t allow us to let them off the hook because of it.
We train them, pay them and hold them accountable to making the right decision in these exact situations. Every police officer knows this when they signed up to become one. Every police officer knows that a standard traffic violation stop could end your life. It’s awful, but it’s the job and you know this going into it. Your job is to remain cool calm and collected and make the proper decision. They didn’t here, regardless of the fact that the guy was criminal and fleeing the scene.
Just curious, did they actually find a tool bar nearby?"Deputies in the helicopter reported seeing a man armed with a "tool bar" in a nearby backyard"
"The airborne deputies said they saw the man use the "tool bar" to break a window"
"the helicopter deputies observed him running south, where he jumped a fence"
"He headed toward the front of the property, along the way looking into another car"
"Police said officers "gave the suspect commands to stop and show his hands," but that he "immediately fled from the officers and ran towards the back of the home."
"they pursued Clark and where he "turned and advanced towards the officers while holding an object which was extended in front of him."
All very passive indeed. And your understanding of justified use of force is completely wrong. If a suspect such as this has a gun, or perceived gun, in their hands and advances towards the officers with the object extended in front of him, then the use of force is justified.
“Police Tuesday said a cinder block and a piece of aluminum similar to what would be used in a rain gutter were recovered from near the broken door and taken into evidence, though neither item was definitely identified as the "tool bar" seen by deputies in the helicopter.”Just curious, did they actually find a tool bar nearby?
None of the things you have listed above with the exception of the bolded would/should qualify as aggressive and enable the use of deadly force."Deputies in the helicopter reported seeing a man armed with a "tool bar" in a nearby backyard"
"The airborne deputies said they saw the man use the "tool bar" to break a window"
"the helicopter deputies observed him running south, where he jumped a fence"
"He headed toward the front of the property, along the way looking into another car"
"Police said officers "gave the suspect commands to stop and show his hands," but that he "immediately fled from the officers and ran towards the back of the home."
"they pursued Clark and where he "turned and advanced towards the officers while holding an object which was extended in front of him."
All very passive indeed. And your understanding of justified use of force is completely wrong. If a suspect such as this has a gun, or perceived gun, in their hands and advances towards the officers with the object extended in front of him, then the use of force is justified.
Have you watched the video?None of the things you have listed above with the exception of the bolded would/should qualify as aggressive and enable the use of deadly force.
Now the bolded I have not seen or read anywhere else except for here in your post but if true would in my opinion justify the shooting.
I would argue that resisting arrest is an aggressive response. It escalates an already tense situation, and it results in everyone being more aggressive. Would we like officers to have more awareness in ALL situations, sure? Do I expect officers to make the best decisions EVERY SINGLE TIME?!? I just can't expect that, sorry. We will have to disagree here.None of the things you have listed above with the exception of the bolded would/should qualify as aggressive and enable the use of deadly force.
Now the bolded I have not seen or read anywhere else except for here in your post but if true would in my opinion justify the shooting.
Fair enough we agree to disagree. For me when there’s life or death on the line accountability is paramount.I would argue that resisting arrest is an aggressive response. It escalates an already tense situation, and it results in everyone being more aggressive. Would we like officers to have more awareness in ALL situations, sure? Do I expect officers to make the best decisions EVERY SINGLE TIME?!? I just can't expect that, sorry. We will have to disagree here.
You say this as though I don't feel the same way. You are just expecting the perfect outcome, and anything less is criminal on the part of police officers. I choose not to see it that way.Fair enough we agree to disagree. For me when there’s life or death on the line accountability is paramount.
Honestly I don’t claim to have any idea about how you feel and was in no way trying to insinuate that. Was just stating my opinion I apologize if it came off that way. But in that same vein you’re claiming I’m expecting a “perfect outcome”, I’ve never said that and in fact said the opposite, that we’re all human beings and make poor decisions. But that doesn’t excuse the accountability for the poor decisions regardless of the circumstance. Life is on the line, literally. And when you sign up to be a police officer you should expect the repercussions should you make the wrong decision. We must have higher expectations of them, police officers, as the power we afford them demands that.You say this as though I don't feel the same way. You are just expecting the perfect outcome, and anything less is criminal on the part of police officers. I choose not to see it that way.
So what is your solution to fix the problem as you see it?Honestly I don’t claim to have any idea about how you feel and was in no way trying to insinuate that. Was just stating my opinion I apologize if it came off that way. But in that same vein you’re claiming I’m expecting a “perfect outcome”, I’ve never said that and in fact said the opposite, that we’re all human beings and make poor decisions. But that doesn’t excuse the accountability for the poor decisions regardless of the circumstance. Life is on the line, literally. And when you sign up to be a police officer you should expect the repercussions should you make the wrong decision. We must have higher expectations of them, police officers, as the power we afford them demands that.
Then don’t run, seems simple if you don’t have anything to hideAmused to Death said:How about cops NOT killing people? Running from cops, in any scenario, is not punishable by death. Ever.
Pretty disgusting that someone has this callous view of another fellow human's situation.Then don’t run, seems simple if you don’t have anything to hide
There were many different paths police officers could have taken for this to ultimately have everyone still alive. Do you apply the "I can't expect x to make a perfect decision everytime" to pilots? doctors?You say this as though I don't feel the same way. You are just expecting the perfect outcome, and anything less is criminal on the part of police officers. I choose not to see it that way.
What about running at cops?Amused to Death said:How about cops NOT killing people? Running from cops, in any scenario, is not punishable by death. Ever.
yes, because someone running away from you is clearly a threat.Then don’t run, seems simple if you don’t have anything to hide
I work across the street from the CA State Capital building and have lived in or near Sacramento County for nearly 35 of my years. There are neighborhoods in Sac County without any street lights at all. The only lights on at night are the few homes that leave a porch light on or have motion sensor lighting. I don’t know if the neighborhood of the incident was completely dark, but it is entirely possible.Ditkaless Wonders said:I presume this as well since modern cities are not dark
Sure it is. Say some nut with an AR-15 shoots up a place and then starts running away from cops (and right towards you) with the AR-15 still in his hands. Pretty sure you are voting for death ASAP.Amused to Death said:How about cops NOT killing people? Running from cops, in any scenario, is not punishable by death. Ever.
Good question. And I don’t have the answer. Smarter more experienced people in this field then I have failed to answer that question fully I presume. All I do know is accepting it as a difficult situation and simply saying he shouldn’t have run or he should have known better isn’t the answer.So what is your solution to fix the problem as you see it?
The ambient light question, street lights, porch lights, and light coming out of windows is answered in the video. We do not have to speculate.I work across the street from the CA State Capital building and have lived in or near Sacramento County for nearly 35 of my years. There are neighborhoods in Sac County without any street lights at all. The only lights on at night are the few homes that leave a porch light on or have motion sensor lighting. I don’t know if the neighborhood of the incident was completely dark, but it is entirely possible.
What if the cops decide not to shoot someone running away who may or may not have a gun and that person then goes on to kill a person or people? We would then have a 1000 page thread of people whining they didn't do enough.yes, because someone running away from you is clearly a threat.
The problem is that as police officers receive more criticism on questionable shootings like this the amount of qualified applicants will continue to decline. Why would any person with characteristics that make a good police officer want to risk their family and livelihood over a mistake made in a split second decision? If people are upset over the quality of police work today, I can't imagine the outrage in 5-10 years when the applicant pool is filled with people with terrible skill sets.Good question. And I don’t have the answer. Smarter more experienced people in this field then I have failed to answer that question fully I presume. All I do know is accepting it as a difficult situation and simply saying he shouldn’t have run or he should have known better isn’t the answer.
Can you imagine if we criticized emergency room surgeons every time one of their patients died after a split second decision went wrong?There were many different paths police officers could have taken for this to ultimately have everyone still alive. Do you apply the "I can't expect x to make a perfect decision everytime" to pilots? doctors?
Idea, I know some of you will be on board with. How about if the police just go ahead shooting black people first thing in the morning, so we can avoid these tragedies later at night?
and while we are at it, pot drivers
I have not read everything here, just the OP. That article says the police never identified themselves as police. I would be running if late at night people with guns approached me.Then don’t run, seems simple if you don’t have anything to hide
Weren't they just investigating someone breaking into cars? Why would we expect that person to then start killing people? It just seems like a massive escalation of the situation by the police.What if the cops decide not to shoot someone running away who may or may not have a gun and that person then goes on to kill a person or people? We would then have a 1000 page thread of people whining they didn't do enough.
Yeah, I don't know. I would like to think that the helicopter overhead following you would be a "dead" giveaway.I have not read everything here, just the OP. That article says the police never identified themselves as police. I would be running if late at night people with guns approached me.
One would think so.Yeah, I don't know. I would like to think that the helicopter overhead following you would be a "dead" giveaway.
Fair point. Being followed by a helicopter would seem pretty obvious.Yeah, I don't know. I would like to think that the helicopter overhead following you would be a "dead" giveaway.
Not really. That’s exactly what armed robbers would do as well.One would think so.
Two guys with flashlights yelling "show me your hands" is pretty obvious too