Police union calls for boycott of Beyonce's world tour (1 Viewer)

[General Malaise]

If your neighbor talks #### about you and then asks you to shovel their driveway, are you being whiny and over-sensitive when you tell them to GTFO? 

Am I being paid by taxpayers to shovel all the driveways of everybody, regardless of their race, gender, sex or beliefs?

 

[Cjw_55106]

Am I being paid by taxpayers to shovel all the driveways of everybody, regardless of their race, gender, sex or beliefs?

Apparently you dont understand that the security duty is "extra". Generally, tax payers dont pay for that....but by all means, carry on. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

No, I understand the comparison just fine. It's an apt one of you are comfortable equating two scenarios that are separated by multiple degrees of intensity. (Cops throwing hissy fits over cultural accusations that they like to murder kids = DMVs keeping track of who makes fun of them).

of course cops need to overlook a lot of public negativity. But a coordinated political, social and media campaign disparaging them, falsely accusing 'cops' as a whole of being murderers, no, that's not something they should have forseen and just get over because 'it's part of the job you signed up for.'

Except Beyonce did not make a "cultural accusation that they like to murder kids."  In fact I've never seen such an accusation (cultural or not) from anyone.  As far as I can tell the accusations coming from the BLM movement and others who sympathize with their cause is that black lives are not afforded the same caution and reverence as non-black lives, and that generally law enforcement (both cops and "the system") treats black people differently than white people. And there's ample evidence supporting those accusations.  Almost nobody thinks or has accused the cops of being serial killers murdering black people for sport.

Of course there's no perfect analogy to another agency, that wasn't my point.  The point is that when you're a public servant you know criticism is coming. That's particularly true when it comes to certain public servants, and if you can't handle it (especially when there's some truth to those criticisms) you should find a different job.

 

[IC FBGCav]

The shark move would be to get the Black Panther's as her security for the shows.

 

[mr roboto]

Don't get me wrong TF cops are kinda wimpy when they get criticized. They are used to being the ones in power and don't respond well when on the defensive. But again, no, the level of disrespect, suspicion and disparagement the profession as a whole is currently under doesn't fall under the 'your a public servant, shut up and deal.'  And every high profile cultural icon who propagates the stereotype has a responsibility in this, including Beyoncé.

 

[General Malaise]

Apparently you dont understand that the security duty is "extra". Generally, tax payers dont pay for that....but by all means, carry on. 

Oh, well if it's EXTRA then why do we care?  Again, if Beyonce can't find security and has to cancel shows, wake me up.  

Can't imagine every cop out there is going to turn down lucrative overtime pay because their little feelings are hurt.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Oh, well if it's EXTRA then why do we care?  Again, if Beyonce can't find security and has to cancel shows, wake me up.  

Can't imagine every cop out there is going to turn down lucrative overtime pay because their little feelings are hurt.

Im quite sure it isn't overtime pay, but its clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Generally speaking, you are correct, no one should care. But alas, here we are. 

 

[General Malaise]

No, I understand the comparison just fine. It's an apt one of you are comfortable equating two scenarios that are separated by multiple degrees of intensity. (Cops throwing hissy fits over cultural accusations that they like to murder kids = DMVs keeping track of who makes fun of them).

of course cops need to overlook a lot of public negativity. But a coordinated political, social and media campaign disparaging them, falsely accusing 'cops' as a whole of being murderers, no, that's not something they should have forseen and just get over because 'it's part of the job you signed up for.'

Falsely accusing?

 

[The General]

Did anyone actually notice this during the halftime show? 

 

[General Malaise]

Im quite sure it isn't overtime pay, but its clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Generally speaking, you are correct, no one should care. But alas, here we are. 

Okay, enlighten me.  Cops are paid regular wages to work security for Beyonce?  Who pays those wages?  How does this work?  Who determines who works security for Beyonce, how much they get paid and who pays for it?  Man, must be nice to know all the ins and outs of police work when it comes to celebrities.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Did anyone actually notice this during the halftime show? 

I had no idea, someone told me the next day or the day after, they just looked like regular costumes. I didn't think the performance was very good though, I think she was at the Ravens/9ers SB in NO, which I went to, and that performance was a blowout.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Falsely accusing?

They even show the cop sprinkling some crack on that guy after he shoots him. 

 

[General Malaise]

Did anyone actually notice this during the halftime show? 

All I noticed was her chunky thighs, the fact that Bruno Mars is pocket sized and that Chris Martin doesn't even like Chris Martin.

Also that I was losing all my bets. 

 

[Jayrod]

Thanks GM for helping me remember what a cesspool this place can be.  Now I won't want to waste anymore time in the FFA today.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

NWA was talking about bad about the police in the 80s, is it because she's a WOMAN?

 

[General Malaise]

Thanks GM for helping me remember what a cesspool this place can be.  Now I won't want to waste anymore time in the FFA today.

Right wingers are angry today, my friends....like an old man returning soup at a deli.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Don't get me wrong TF cops are kinda wimpy when they get criticized. They are used to being the ones in power and don't respond well when on the defensive. But again, no, the level of disrespect, suspicion and disparagement the profession as a whole is currently under doesn't fall under the 'your a public servant, shut up and deal.'  And every high profile cultural icon who propagates the stereotype has a responsibility in this, including Beyoncé.

What stereotype is she propagating exactly, and how is she propagating it?

Admittedly I may have had a less critical eye because unlike GM I hit on both the spread and the over/under at the Super Bowl

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

"To taint police officers globally in the Super Bowl is really wrong,"

Yeah, that didn't happen.

and "taint" lol

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

36 unarmed blacks were killed by police in 2015.  Most of them were clearly justifiable or accidental (such as a person on the street being hit by an errant shot).  Only a handful of cases are even disputable as a potential overuse of force.  There is actually a higher percentage of whites killed by cops where it looks to be an unjustified shooting.  And this data supports the studies done recently suggesting that cops are more likely to exercise restraint with blacks for fear of the political repercussions.

Meanwhile the bigger problem, black on black violence, goes unaddressed.  6,400 blacks were killed overall in 2015, over 90% of them by other blacks.  10 children under the age of 10 were murdered in Baltimore alone last year.  Maybe Beyonce ought to to be using her influence to address that issue.

Tu quoque  False dilemma or deflection 

"Why are you buying Girl Scout Cookies when you could donate that money to AIDS research?"


 

 

[mr roboto]

Falsely accusing?

As a whole, keep reading that sentence. There are bad cops. I do not believe there exists a systemic crisis of cops shooting unarmed people. But when they do, they should be convicted. 

The real problem is how the criminal justice system closes ranks around officers. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Okay, enlighten me.  Cops are paid regular wages to work security for Beyonce?  Who pays those wages?  How does this work?  Who determines who works security for Beyonce, how much they get paid and who pays for it?  Man, must be nice to know all the ins and outs of police work when it comes to celebrities.

They are more than likely paid by a security company who hires workers on a 1099 basis.   Someone I do taxes for does this from time to time.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Except Beyonce did not make a "cultural accusation that they like to murder kids."  In fact I've never seen such an accusation (cultural or not) from anyone.  As far as I can tell the accusations coming from the BLM movement and others who sympathize with their cause is that black lives are not afforded the same caution and reverence as non-black lives, and that generally law enforcement (both cops and "the system") treats black people differently than white people. And there's ample evidence supporting those accusations.  Almost nobody thinks or has accused the cops of being serial killers murdering black people for sport.

Of course there's no perfect analogy to another agency, that wasn't my point.  The point is that when you're a public servant you know criticism is coming. That's particularly true when it comes to certain public servants, and if you can't handle it (especially when there's some truth to those criticisms) you should find a different job.

Presuming everything you say is correct, when does the process shift from identifying the problem to offering constructive suggestion and work on fixing the problem?

I believe if there is a problem it has been identified and that further identification of it only amounts to inflammatory rhetoric counterproductive to correcting the situation.    What many are doing now is perpetuating the problem, and adding to it with greater stress and anger.  I understand the problem has to be identified to be corrected.  I understand some passions must be raised to motivate a change of behavior.  But I also understand that there is a time to move the process of change along, that stagnating in a blame cycle can be counterproductive of change.  

Me, I might quibble with some of the assumptions of those active in this movement.  In fact I might do more, but what is the point?  Participation in such can only hold us longer here, where we are, in a nonproductive dialog.  Given that, I will not even attempt to make any countervailing points, clarifications or arguments.  We need to move off this place we find ourselves.

 

[Higgs]

Tu quoque  False dilemma or deflection 

"Why are you buying Girl Scout Cookies when you could donate that money to AIDS research?"


 

A better comparison would be, "why are you contributing to the victims of lightning strikes on Wednesdays when you could donate that money to AIDS research?"

You do know the statistics don't support this ridiculous notion that there is a widespread problem with cops killing black people, right?  Millions of interactions last year, and anywhere from 1-5 cases where it could even be argued that a black was killed unjustifiably.  Yet the narrative continues to be pumped by the left that racist cops are gunning down blacks.  Heck, Hillary was pimping this crap all last week during her speeches.  And meanwhile the violence against cops rose dramatically in 2015.  So it's not like this incessant focus on 1-5 deaths is harmless.

It's a canard.  Focus on real issues within the criminal justice system, like unfair drug policies and unjustifiable racial profiling.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

 

[TobiasFunke]

Presuming everything you say is correct, when does the process shift from identifying the problem to offering constructive suggestion and work on fixing the problem?

I believe if there is a problem it has been identified and that further identification of it only amounts to inflammatory rhetoric counterproductive to correcting the situation.    What many are doing now is perpetuating the problem, and adding to it with greater stress and anger.  I understand the problem has to be identified to be corrected.  I understand some passions must be raised to motivate a change of behavior.  But I also understand that there is a time to move the process of change along, that stagnating in a blame cycle can be counterproductive of change.  

Me, I might quibble with some of the assumptions of those active in this movement.  In fact I might do more, but what is the point?  Participation in such can only hold us longer here, where we are, in a nonproductive dialog.  Given that, I will not even attempt to make any countervailing points, clarifications or arguments.  We need to move off this place we find ourselves.

Plenty of constructive suggestions have been made to fix the problem, and some efforts are underway to do so.  I don't think those things happen without the protest movement, and I don't know if you can pinpoint a particular time when one should cease in favor of the other.  Until everyone knows about and understands the problem (and clearly many do not- see eg how many people respond with the mistaken and irrelevant "counterargument" about the lack of concern from the black community about black on black crime), there's still value in their efforts.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Okay, enlighten me.  Cops are paid regular wages to work security for Beyonce?  Who pays those wages?  How does this work?  Who determines who works security for Beyonce, how much they get paid and who pays for it?  Man, must be nice to know all the ins and outs of police work when it comes to celebrities.

I dont know the ins and outs of police work to celebrities.This really has zero to do with police work or celebrities. Someone wants to put on a show, local laws tell them what kind of security they need. Im sure this varies depending upon the size of the venue, alcohol served, etc. Im sure in most cases, the venue handles this and passes the cost onto the person or company renting the building. Its easier for Yankee stadium to have an agreement with the local cops to send over 50 cops on Thursday night for X dollars. The cops can and probably do have a system to make it "fair" as to who is offered the extra work. It has nothing to do with overtime and is paid out separately from the tax payer salaries they get for their normal police work. 

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

A better comparison would be, "why are you contributing to the victims of lightning strikes on Wednesdays when you could donate that money to AIDS research?"

You do know the statistics don't support this ridiculous notion that there is a widespread problem with cops killing black people, right?  Millions of interactions last year, and anywhere from 1-5 cases where it could even be argued that a black was killed unjustifiably.  Yet the narrative continues to be pumped by the left that racist cops are gunning down blacks.  Heck, Hillary was pimping this crap all last week during her speeches.  And meanwhile the violence against cops rose dramatically in 2015.  So it's not like this incessant focus on 1-5 deaths is harmless.

It's a canard.  Focus on real issues within the criminal justice system, like unfair drug policies and unjustifiable racial profiling.

A better comparison would be, "why are you contributing to the victims of lightning strikes on Wednesdays when you could donate that money to AIDS research?"

You do know the statistics don't support this ridiculous notion that there is a widespread problem with cops killing black people, right?  Millions of interactions last year, and anywhere from 1-5 cases where it could even be argued that a black was killed unjustifiably.  Yet the narrative continues to be pumped by the left that racist cops are gunning down blacks.  Heck, Hillary was pimping this crap all last week during her speeches.  And meanwhile the violence against cops rose dramatically in 2015.  So it's not like this incessant focus on 1-5 deaths is harmless.

It's a canard.  Focus on real issues within the criminal justice system, like unfair drug policies and unjustifiable racial profiling.

Good points.  

But what do these things have to do with one another?

 

[General Malaise]

They are more than likely paid by a security company who hires workers on a 1099 basis.   Someone I do taxes for does this from time to time.

So then what's the problem exactly?  Say a bunch of black cops want to work security detail for Beyonce...what's stopping them?  I'm not a union guy, so can the union say "NO" when it isn't Police business?  

 

[General Malaise]

I dont know the ins and outs of police work to celebrities.

Then why the #### are you getting on my ### for not knowing how this works?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Plenty of constructive suggestions have been made to fix the problem, and some efforts are underway to do so.  I don't think those things happen without the protest movement, and I don't know if you can pinpoint a particular time when one should cease in favor of the other.  Until everyone knows about and understands the problem (and clearly many do not- see eg how many people respond with the mistaken and irrelevant "counterargument" about the lack of concern from the black community about black on black crime), there's still value in their efforts.

Just a quick post to let you know I have read your post.  Thought provoking as always.  

 

[Higgs]

Good points.  

But what do these things have to do with one another?

Some feel there's a direct correlation - that passions are being inflamed and people are now bringing the fight to the cops.  There were a couple of revenge killings last year of cops where the primary motivation was payback for Michael Brown and Eric Garner.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I dont know the ins and outs of police work to celebrities.This really has zero to do with police work or celebrities. Someone wants to put on a show, local laws tell them what kind of security they need. Im sure this varies depending upon the size of the venue, alcohol served, etc. Im sure in most cases, the venue handles this and passes the cost onto the person or company renting the building. Its easier for Yankee stadium to have an agreement with the local cops to send over 50 cops on Thursday night for X dollars. The cops can and probably do have a system to make it "fair" as to who is offered the extra work. It has nothing to do with overtime and is paid out separately from the tax payer salaries they get for their normal police work. 

Many departments have offices of Secondary Employment which have rules set for them by their Departments and who coordinate such matters with processes in place to reflect and respect the fact that law enforcement working security in uniform must still reflect the highest standards of the Departments identified by the uniforms present.  After all, the public cannot determine if they are on duty or not when in uniform, and their powers are essentially the same, and they switch to full duty status instantly and without apparently warning to the public.  To the public on-duty or off-duty working security in uniform is a distinction without a difference.  If Cops want to start making distinctions based upon point of view of some messages being disseminated they may find their ability to do off-duty security in the uniform of their City hampered or even eliminated.  With the uniform comes the obligation to not take positions on content of speech.

 

[IC FBGCav]

So then what's the problem exactly?  Say a bunch of black cops want to work security detail for Beyonce...what's stopping them?  I'm not a union guy, so can the union say "NO" when it isn't Police business?  

   I think the union voted on it and that is their stance as a group.  

 

[General Malaise]

Many departments have offices of Secondary Employment which have rules set for them by their Departments and who coordinate such matters with processes in place to reflect and resect the fact that law enforcement working security in uniform must still reflect the highest standards of the Departments identified by the uniforms present.  After all, the public cannot determine if they are on duty or not when in uniform, and their powers are essentially the same, and they switch to full duty status instantly and without apparently warning to the public.  To the public on-duty or off-duty working security in uniform is a distinction without a difference.  If Cops want to start making distinctions based upon point of view of some messages being disseminated they may find their ability to do off-duty security in the uniform of their City hampered or even eliminated.  With the uniform comes the obligation to not take positions on content of speech.

Excellent.  Thanks DW!

 

[[icon]]

I'm kinda looking forward to the hypothetical day law enforcement personell decide en masse that the scrub pay is longer worth the risk of putting their asses on the line for an ungrateful populace.

Will be interesting to see the reactions of folks when they call 911 and nobody comes to their rescue. Ironically it most cases it will be those most vocal against law enforcement that will find themselves completely helpless to defend themselves. 

At this point I think Americans as a whole could use a little discomfort to recalibrate their perception of reality. 

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Some feel there's a direct correlation - that passions are being inflamed and people are now bringing the fight to the cops.  There were a couple of revenge killings last year of cops where the primary motivation was payback for Michael Brown and Eric Garner.

Ug.  This is where you lost me. 

 

[Higgs]

Ug.  This is where you lost me. 

The amount and impact of the correlation is certainly debatable.  In a sense I agree with Tobias that a greater good was done by raising the awareness last year.  It needed to be done.  But in fairness I think the public and the cops responded pretty well to the issue.  It does seem like a lot of progress was made with retraining, body cameras being mandated, more transparency, etc.  I just wish the focus would now shift to other issues that in my opinion are causing more harm in the inner cities, like unemployment, mental health, dissolution of the black family unit, drugs...