MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Ahhh...of course. The "you're racist" angle - the dying gasp of an extreme liberal who has nothing else to offer.
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Poll: Voter ID? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jon_mx
- Start date
Jim11
Footballguy
We "kooks" would just like the vote to be legit...take your race card & shove it.
Jim11
Footballguy
SCOTUS allows Texas to use new voter ID law for Nov. election.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/justices-texas-voter-id-law-26290781
A majority of the justices rejected an emergency request from the Justice Department and civil rights groups to prohibit the state from requiring voters to produce certain forms of photo identification in order to cast ballots.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/justices-texas-voter-id-law-26290781
A majority of the justices rejected an emergency request from the Justice Department and civil rights groups to prohibit the state from requiring voters to produce certain forms of photo identification in order to cast ballots.
[SIZE=9pt]timschochet, on 14 Oct 2014 - 9:35 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]You know Rich, ideally I would love it if less people voted, and if those who voted were educated on all the issues. But suppressing minority voters is wrong. And it's being pushed only as a means to help the GOP, and most people see right through it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Koya, on 14 May 2014 - 3:10 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]The concept of Voter ID is not the biggest issue here, imo. It's the reality that voter ID is being used as an excuse to purposefully deny specific segments of the population the ability to vote. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Todd Andrews, on 14 May 2014 - 7:14 PM, said:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] Yes, Republicans are. All over the country. In general, Republicans are for restricting the rights of Americans to vote. All over the country, they are shortening time periods to vote and increasing the difficulty to vote.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]tommyGunZ, on 17 Oct 2014 - 6:51 PM, said:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]This is exactly the kind of wasteful nonsense that gov't should avoid, which is why it's so telling when self-identified "fiscal conservatives" advocate voter-ID. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]You know Rich, ideally I would love it if less people voted, and if those who voted were educated on all the issues. But suppressing minority voters is wrong. And it's being pushed only as a means to help the GOP, and most people see right through it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Koya, on 14 May 2014 - 3:10 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]The concept of Voter ID is not the biggest issue here, imo. It's the reality that voter ID is being used as an excuse to purposefully deny specific segments of the population the ability to vote. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Todd Andrews, on 14 May 2014 - 7:14 PM, said:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] Yes, Republicans are. All over the country. In general, Republicans are for restricting the rights of Americans to vote. All over the country, they are shortening time periods to vote and increasing the difficulty to vote.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]tommyGunZ, on 17 Oct 2014 - 6:51 PM, said:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]This is exactly the kind of wasteful nonsense that gov't should avoid, which is why it's so telling when self-identified "fiscal conservatives" advocate voter-ID. [/SIZE]
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Seriously? Scroll up for Todd Andrews saying that. Or are you getting hung up on the 75% figure?
timschochet
Footballguy
There are plenty of honest people, in this thread and elsewhere, who honestly want voter ID laws and it has nothing to with race. But you can't blame people for feeling suspicious when the GOP has focused on doing this in battleground states in which the percentage of minority voters is slowly but surely having a decisive impact in favor of the Democrats.
I will admit my own opposition to voter ID laws is largely racial: the net effect will be to decrease the number of minorities who vote, and I don't like that.
I will admit my own opposition to voter ID laws is largely racial: the net effect will be to decrease the number of minorities who vote, and I don't like that.
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He didn't say anything close to that.
There's no contradiction at all between (a) kooks liking it when brown people can't vote, and (b) there also being other reasons to support voter ID laws.
None of those say anything like your characterization of them. You're either having a mental block with regard to reading comprehension on this issue, or you're intentionally misrepresenting other people's arguments.
I believe an excellent practice, when discussing any issue, is to characterize your opponent's position such a way that your opponent would agree with your statement of his views.
Do you really think tommyGunZ would agree with the notion that the only possible reason 75% of the people support voter ID requirements is because they don't want blacks and Hispanics to vote?
I feel very confident that he would not.
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GrandpaRox
Footballguy
Illegal favors the Democrats because they are too uneducated to realize that they are being used. Ten times illegal Democrat votes than Republican., Or more.There is a political aspect to this issue, but it involves the loss of legal votes, not illegal ones. I think most people are willing to acknowledge that, with the exception of fringe sorts like jon_mx.Just going by what was said.The FFA seems like a pretty good collection of smart folks. I'd hope that if they were making something up, they could come up with something better than that
Well no, but it is still the argument that is being consistently thrown out. It really becomes ridiculous when you realize it is just not hard-core Republican partisans who support it, which was my point. Most on the anti-ID side will not acknowledge that any other concern in this debate is legit and consistently characterized the other side as wanting to suppress the vote.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Can you find a post from Todd Andrews that admits to there being any other reason to support voter ID laws? I don't know why you're going down this particular path, but I'm almost 100% confident that you understand the intent of his post just as well as I do.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I'm not saying that racism is the only reason for supporting ID requirements. I'm just saying that racism is part of it. Or something like that.
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I can't find a statement from you admitting that the moon isn't made of green cheese. That doesn't give me license to tell everyone that you think it is made of green cheese.
Todd said that KooKs like it when brown people can't vote. jon_mx characterized that as saying that racism is the only reason to support voter ID laws.
Suppose we define a KooK as someone who likes it when brown people can't vote. Todd's statement would then be categorically correct (as a tautology), but jon_mx's statement would still be wildly wrong.
That's proof that john_mx's statement isn't an accurate summary of Todd's.
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The difference was not even outside the margin of error, so it doesn't prove much. If anything, it only demonstrated that racism if it plays a role, is a small one.
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It was a question introduced by "So ...", which implies that you were characterizing somebody else's position -- which you confirmed when I asked who said that.
Forget the study; I wasn't referring to it. I think it's obvious, independent of any study, that racism plays a part for some people.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You knew that this was exactly what jon was saying in the first place. Why are you getting all pedantic on this particular point?
That's not what I thought he was saying. I thought he was trying to ridicule people ("Can you be any more stupid and still breath?") for holding a position that nobody actually believes, and I was curious about who, specifically, the target of his ridicule was.
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I strongly suspected that was KooK's implication by his statement, and it has been strongly implied by many statements throughout the thread. I was looking for confirmation/clarification of what he was trying to imply.
Yenrub
Footballguy
I was thinking about this thread and how someone could go without having an ID while I was running some errands today, going to the grocery store and drug store.
At the grocery store I had 3 bottles of wine mixed in with my other groceries and paid with my debit card. The debit card is from an account that I opened about 20 years ago. Anyway the clerk didn’t card me for the wine and with the debit card I just enter my pin. No ID needed at the grocery store
Stopped at CVS (drug store) to pick up my prescription. I thought for sure I would have to show my ID there but to my surprise all I had to do was give my name and DOB. Used my insurance debit card to pay and left.
I know small sample size but I can totally see how someone could function without having an ID
While I have a valid driver’s license I haven’t had to show it to anyone since I took a flight to Dallas back in the spring
At the grocery store I had 3 bottles of wine mixed in with my other groceries and paid with my debit card. The debit card is from an account that I opened about 20 years ago. Anyway the clerk didn’t card me for the wine and with the debit card I just enter my pin. No ID needed at the grocery store
Stopped at CVS (drug store) to pick up my prescription. I thought for sure I would have to show my ID there but to my surprise all I had to do was give my name and DOB. Used my insurance debit card to pay and left.
I know small sample size but I can totally see how someone could function without having an ID
While I have a valid driver’s license I haven’t had to show it to anyone since I took a flight to Dallas back in the spring
Meanwhile, I am 50 and I had to show ID to get into a bar. And that friendly officer wanted to see my ID a couple weeks ago. Also, had to show my ID a few days ago to the teller when I took out money. All liquor stores in Indiana should check ID as it is a law that everyone who purchases alcohol have ID on them, no matter how well they know them.
I recently went several years without having a driver's license. Like you, I opened my checking account long ago. I never got carded at the grocery store. I seldom got carded at bars, and when I did, I simply went elsewhere.
I also flew several times on commercial flights. You don't need a driver's license to fly; a couple credit cards will do.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Right. Most of us agree that folks who live in urban areas and who don't need a car and don't otherwise travel can get by without an ID.
But if you wanted to vote and ID was required to vote, you could probably find your way to the DMV.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Go back and read Todd Andrews' post. The clear intention of that post is "ID requirements are motivated by racism." Seriously, why the hell are you defending this kind of stuff?
Edit: The passive-aggressive "Oh gosh I just don't know what he's trying to say so let's give him every benefit of the doubt" doesn't fly when you're tossing accusations of racism around.
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Jim11
Footballguy
You're either lying or you haven't flown for a LONG time. Do you see "credit cards" on that list?
http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/acceptable-ids
Acceptable IDs for screening purposes include:
- U.S. passport
- U.S. passport card
- DHS trusted traveler cards (Global Entry, NEXUS, SENTRI, FAST)
- U.S. military ID (active duty or retired military and their dependents, and DoD civilians)
- Permanent resident card
- Border crossing card
- DHS-designated enhanced driver's license
- Driver's licenses or other state photo identity cards issued by Department of Motor Vehicles (or equivalent) for the sole purpose of identification
- Native American tribal photo ID
- HSPD-12 PIV card
- Airline or airport-issued ID (if issued under a TSA-approved security plan)
- Foreign government-issued passport
- Canadian provincial driver's license or Indian and Northern Affairs Canada card
- Transportation Worker Identification Credential
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
He's posted that - or variations of that - at least 5 or 10 times in this and other threads.
Yenrub
Footballguy
It certainly doesn’t help the case when the Senator for PA (Turazi or something like that) practically comes out and says that was the goal for putting the law in place in PA
What charges am I defending it against?
I'm not saying that Todd's post is innocent of all possible charges. But it's sure as hell innocent of stating that racism is the only reason to support voter ID laws. So why don't we drop that charge and move onto more sensible ones?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Buddy of mine lost his wallet when we were in Ann Arbor for the Michigan/Ohio State game a couple years ago. Fortunately, his Costco card was in his suitcase for some reason. He used it to get on the plane.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
You can stop arguing. Anyone who reads through this thread, or even just this page, knows exactly what was being implied. I'm confused by the defense as well.
The forms of ID on that list -- a driver's license, passport, etc. -- are the valid IDs that are automatically accepted. But your link explicitly states that other forms of ID not on that list may also be accepted. ("We understand passengers occasionally arrive at the airport without an ID, because of losing it or inadvertently leaving it at home. If this happens to you, it does not necessarily mean you won't be allowed to fly.") And elsewhere on the tsa.gov site, it specifically mentions credit cards.
Q. If I lose my ID during travel, what secondary forms of ID will be accepted?
A. Passengers who do not have a valid photo ID, such as State-issued driver’s license, should bring any ID or documents they have available to assist in verification of identity. Passengers need at least two alternate forms of identification, such as a social security card, birth certificate, marriage license, or credit card. The documents must bear the name of the passenger. Also, one of these documents must bear identification information containing one of the following: photo, address, phone number, social security number, or date of birth. If TSA can confirm the passenger’s identity, they may enter the secured area, but they could be subject to additional screening.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
None of my credit cards contain photo, address, phone number, ssn or DOB.
Jim11
Footballguy
Well, my bad, I guess some credit cards have pictures, etc. on them...mine don't. This is good, though...people can use them as their photo ID to vote.
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Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I just think that we have become so divided and entrenched these days, we have lost the ability to have rationale debate about important issues.
I, (and I say this because I don't see how people function without an id) have had to pull my drivers license out twice this past week. I was buying some outfit for my 10 year old at Justice in the mall (yeah, White people problems I get it) but I had to show my id along with my CC. I paid a payment on my car at the bank and the car is only in my name, but my wife made out the check and signed it--when I requested what the balance was after the payment, I had to show my license to get that number.
So I think there is a disconnect there (at least for me) why it wouldn't be so hard to just make sure people have an id. We do voter drives in urban areas in RV's to register people, why can't we make sure people have the ability to get a valid id at the same time?
I mean doing a quick google search shows 240 dead people voting in an election just 2 years ago in upstate NY. Now they say it could be a clerical error or whatnot, but if I have to show ID at Justice to buy some overpriced jeans. why is it such a stretch that I would have to show an id to do something so important as to vote?
And I would just add that the argument these people are poor and can't get an id doesn't seem to hold water because if they are poor, it is not a stretch to believe they are on some form of public assistance to live--which requires some form of valid id for the recipient to receive benefits. So they have an id to get benefits, but not to vote???
I, (and I say this because I don't see how people function without an id) have had to pull my drivers license out twice this past week. I was buying some outfit for my 10 year old at Justice in the mall (yeah, White people problems I get it) but I had to show my id along with my CC. I paid a payment on my car at the bank and the car is only in my name, but my wife made out the check and signed it--when I requested what the balance was after the payment, I had to show my license to get that number.
So I think there is a disconnect there (at least for me) why it wouldn't be so hard to just make sure people have an id. We do voter drives in urban areas in RV's to register people, why can't we make sure people have the ability to get a valid id at the same time?
I mean doing a quick google search shows 240 dead people voting in an election just 2 years ago in upstate NY. Now they say it could be a clerical error or whatnot, but if I have to show ID at Justice to buy some overpriced jeans. why is it such a stretch that I would have to show an id to do something so important as to vote?
And I would just add that the argument these people are poor and can't get an id doesn't seem to hold water because if they are poor, it is not a stretch to believe they are on some form of public assistance to live--which requires some form of valid id for the recipient to receive benefits. So they have an id to get benefits, but not to vote???
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Mine don't either. I brought some IDs with pics on them, like old school IDs from 20 years ago. [Not IDs that are old school, but school IDs that are old.] The guy didn't look at those, however. He just looked at the credit cards and let me though.
timschochet
Footballguy
No I don't. But a lot of very smart people believe this to be true and I find their reasoning to be compelling.
Yeah well you are the guy who found the NSA'S reasoning compelling so your judgment may not be that great.....
timschochet
Footballguy
Strike, if you don't believe that voter ID laws will depress minority voting, then make an argument against it.
The argument for it is pretty simple: a larger percentage of minorities don't carry IDs than do the overall public. Therefore a larger percentage of minorities will be affected by any voter ID law: for them it's the equivalent of an added burden, which it is normally not for the rest of us. The more burdens you add to minorities, the less likely they are to vote. This is especially true of Latinos, who are already politically less engaged and vote at a lower percentage than do whites. Blacks also voted at a lower percentage prior to Obama, and there is every reason to believe that post Obama their numbers will revert to the mean.
The argument for it is pretty simple: a larger percentage of minorities don't carry IDs than do the overall public. Therefore a larger percentage of minorities will be affected by any voter ID law: for them it's the equivalent of an added burden, which it is normally not for the rest of us. The more burdens you add to minorities, the less likely they are to vote. This is especially true of Latinos, who are already politically less engaged and vote at a lower percentage than do whites. Blacks also voted at a lower percentage prior to Obama, and there is every reason to believe that post Obama their numbers will revert to the mean.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Hey Tim, instead of going back and forth with Strike (I know you guys have a history--I get It), but could you perhaps look at my post a few up and maybe we could use that as a good point to
start a dialogue.
timschochet
Footballguy
CJ I did read your post and actually I have no argument with it . It would be better for us as a society to help everyone have IDs, no question. But the problem with having voter ID laws is in the interim, it would depress minority voting.
Earlier I suggested a compromise: let's help everyone get an ID. And once studies show that minorities carry them at the same percentage as white people, THEN we can have voter ID restrictions. And only if it can be shown that it would not make voting unduly more difficult in poorer minority areas.
Earlier I suggested a compromise: let's help everyone get an ID. And once studies show that minorities carry them at the same percentage as white people, THEN we can have voter ID restrictions. And only if it can be shown that it would not make voting unduly more difficult in poorer minority areas.
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