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Propane for home heating? (1 Viewer)

Helaire-ious

Helaire-ious

Footballguy
I'm currently house hunting (PA) and originally was not considering any homes with oil or propane heat & wanted gas. Also, way too many homes heated with a heat pump here and I see more comments of them not blowing actual warm air. That would not make me happy.

Anyway, should I reconsider a propane heated home? What's a good size tank & what is the avg fill up price?

Also, am I right to not really want a home heated with a heat pump?

 
Helaire-ious said:
I'm currently house hunting (PA) and originally was not considering any homes with oil or propane heat & wanted gas. Also, way too many homes heated with a heat pump here and I see more comments of them not blowing actual warm air. That would not make me happy.

Anyway, should I reconsider a propane heated home? What's a good size tank & what is the avg fill up price?

Also, am I right to not really want a home heated with a heat pump?
Click to expand...
I would be surprised if PA houses have pure heat pump systems.... It gets too cold. I would expect any homes with a heat pump to be part of a hybrid system (which I have). Heat pump above whatever I set (50 deg) for example. Furnace below that

 
belljr said:
I would be surprised if PA houses have pure heat pump systems.... It gets too cold. I would expect any homes with a heat pump to be part of a hybrid system (which I have). Heat pump above whatever I set (50 deg) for example. Furnace below that
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Some just have the heat pump some have another system as primary or backup, but the more I read and hear, the more I think staying away from heat pump is the way to go. I grew up with electric heat & never again will I have that. Have had forced air gas everywhere my whole adult life and that is really what I want to stay with, but did more reading on propane & thought maybe I was being too close-minded

 
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I had electric heat years ago in an apartment ...I'm not sure why, but it never felt as warm as gas heat.

I have no idea why ...could be the humidity - I don't know the physics of it, but from a pure experience part of it ...i hated it.

and it was really expensive in comparison to gas heat.

 
We have an electric heat pump with an electric furnace backup.  The heat pump is used for maintaining temp and the furnace is used when trying to climb several degrees.  The heat pump blows far cooler air,  but we don’t really notice it.  When warming up in the morning and climbing several degrees, the furnace kicks in and it’s hot heat.  My son likes to sit on the register in the morning.  My winter electric bill is about $240 during peak months on about 3200 sq foot finished space. We keep it warmer because I hate being cold.  During awake, at-home hours we keep it at 71-72 and when sleeping, 65.   We have a propane tank, but it’s currently only used for our fireplace and range, but also soon to heating our in-ground pool.  

 
Sounds like you might be looking in a rural area.  If thats the case you will be on a well for water.  This opens the option of adding a geothermal (open or closed loop) HVAC system.  Switching from propane (propane is now just backup) to geothermal was a very good investment.

 
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We were spending $500/mo on propane Dec, Jan, Feb.  This was 10 years ago.  Cost of adding a open loop (uses well water) geothermal system was $5k and had a $3k tax credit.  Electric use went up about $50/mo for Dec Jan Feb and stayed the same for the rest of the year.  We now fill our propane tank once every 18-24 months.

 
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Natural gas is cheaper than LP gas for sure in my experience but propane is considered "par for the course" in any area not served by a pipeline. Which is most of our projects. High efficiency propane boiler with a domestic hot water tank as a zone off the boiler is was the standard here but there wasn't as much drive for AC when that took over from heating oil about 20-30 years ago.

Depending on the size of the home, most folks would probably be fine with a 500 gallon buried tank. The tanks can be owned by the gas company or by you. I think the recommendation is to let the gas company own it and if you're shopping for a different gas company, there will be options presented on how to switch ownership.

Air to air Heat pumps vary in their ability to efficiently provide heat from cold air. The most common are called "mini split" units where the condenser tower is outside and the distribution is the head or heads located in main space(es). Some are designed to be viable in very cold temperatures which is a market we needed here in northern VT. The metric used for the difference between electric resistance and heat pump technology is called the coefficient of performance (COP). The COP of cold weather units I believe is somewhere in the range of 3 on a yearly basis but it obviously varies widely depending on the temperature difference (inside verus outside). We're stretching my knowledge at this point but I'm pretty sure many of them have an electric resistance coil (think hair dryer) built in for when the outside air temp would otherwise freeze up the unit and not deliver any heat. 

They're gaining popularity in our area because of two reasons:

To wean home energy use away from all fossil fuel use. A home that uses no LP or natural gas (or heaven forbid heating oil!) can be converted at some point with solar panels to becoming a fully net zero carbon home. You're tied to electricity though. Energy nerds have been pushing this hard for the past 10+ years.

Air conditioning is baked in. I'm sure this is less of a revelation for your markets where AC has been an expectation for longer. We've had mostly hydronic heat delivery (hot water baseboard since the 70s and then radiant heat in higher end homes since the late 90s). I'm guessing y'all have had furnaces with air delivery and a coil for heat/cooling for most of your homes. 

Geothermal is just a water to (air?) heat pump. Heat pumps are very common. window AC units, refrigerators, all of that is just heat pumps. The reason why geothermal can create heat or cooling more efficiently is that the source water is closer to the temp that you're trying to achieve. Stealing a few degrees of heat from 42 degree water is easier than stealing a few degrees of heat from 10 degree air. If the math works to buy into geothermal, it's a more optimal setup. The numbers we see are much higher than what Random posted. So great if you have a more mature and aggressive market for that. 

I don't know enough about which specific heat pumps to recommend or avoid and my guess is that this is kind of a "case by case basis" in terms of whether or not it's been designed well to meet the heating loads and have good distribution. 

 
Random said:
Sounds like you might be looking in a rural area.  If thats the case you will be on a well for water.  This opens the option of adding a geothermal (open or closed loop) HVAC system.  Switching from propane (propane is now just backup) to geothermal was a very good investment.
Click to expand...
More info? Not looking to have to drop 5 figures on a project as soon as a buy whatever house...

 
I'm getting a lot of mixed replies about heat pumps. Some say no some say they love their heat pump. Let's assume the heat pump is the only source of heat & AC in the home. Then what? I enjoy feeling the warm air from forced air gas systems. I would not enjoy cool or cold air coming from the vents in winter. I normally keep the house at 70-72 during the day in the winter. A little warmer on the extra cold days

 
Helaire-ious said:
I'm getting a lot of mixed replies about heat pumps. Some say no some say they love their heat pump. Let's assume the heat pump is the only source of heat & AC in the home. Then what? I enjoy feeling the warm air from forced air gas systems. I would not enjoy cool or cold air coming from the vents in winter. I normally keep the house at 70-72 during the day in the winter. A little warmer on the extra cold days
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If you live in Pennsylvania you won't have a straight heat pump.

There will be a back up heat source: either a gas furnace, propane furnace, or electric air handler.

A heat pump is basically your air conditioner. In the summer it provides cooling. In the winter there is a reversing valve that basically reverses the process of the refrigerant. The heat pump will normally satisfy your thermostat until the outdoor temps hits about 35 degrees or so. At that point if your thermostat is not getting satisfied within a set period of time (usually 10-15 minutes) your backup heat will then kick in.

However, you can over ride the heat pump whenever you want by going to your thermostat and switching it to EMERGENCY HEAT. This will engage the backup heat only and you will then get that "hot heat" that you so desire all the time.

 
ChiefD said:
If you live in Pennsylvania you won't have a straight heat pump.

There will be a back up heat source: either a gas furnace, propane furnace, or electric air handler.

A heat pump is basically your air conditioner. In the summer it provides cooling. In the winter there is a reversing valve that basically reverses the process of the refrigerant. The heat pump will normally satisfy your thermostat until the outdoor temps hits about 35 degrees or so. At that point if your thermostat is not getting satisfied within a set period of time (usually 10-15 minutes) your backup heat will then kick in.

However, you can over ride the heat pump whenever you want by going to your thermostat and switching it to EMERGENCY HEAT. This will engage the backup heat only and you will then get that "hot heat" that you so desire all the time.
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Thats what I said, but apparently not

Mine is set to 45 or 50 - as I too prefer the gas heat furnace over the heat pump.  But I also dont see the need to run furnace only mode above 50

 
belljr said:
Thats what I said, but apparently not

Mine is set to 45 or 50 - as I too prefer the gas heat furnace over the heat pump.  But I also dont see the need to run furnace only mode above 50
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Sorry, totally missed your response.   :blush:

But yeah, set point is whatever a person is comfortable with. The heat pumps are also nice because they give you options depending on utility prices.  So someone could hedge their bets on what the best heating source is if gas or electricity fluctuates high or low. 

 
ChiefD said:
If you live in Pennsylvania you won't have a straight heat pump.

There will be a back up heat source: either a gas furnace, propane furnace, or electric air handler.

A heat pump is basically your air conditioner. In the summer it provides cooling. In the winter there is a reversing valve that basically reverses the process of the refrigerant. The heat pump will normally satisfy your thermostat until the outdoor temps hits about 35 degrees or so. At that point if your thermostat is not getting satisfied within a set period of time (usually 10-15 minutes) your backup heat will then kick in.

However, you can over ride the heat pump whenever you want by going to your thermostat and switching it to EMERGENCY HEAT. This will engage the backup heat only and you will then get that "hot heat" that you so desire all the time.
Click to expand...
You'll also get an electric bill you may not desire if you run the emergency heat too much :lol:

I never had any kind of central heat in a house I lived in until I was in my late 20s. The first was the heat pump/furnace Chief describes about. Then I bought an older house that had an oil-fired boiler and hot water baseboard. THAT was the best heating I've ever had, but you pay dearly for that oil. I cycled through a few other different kinds until the house I'm in now, which has the electric heat pump/furnace set-up. You get used to it. It's not like you stick your feet down into the vents. Or is it?

 
Uruk-Hai said:
You'll also get an electric bill you may not desire if you run the emergency heat too much :lol:

I never had any kind of central heat in a house I lived in until I was in my late 20s. The first was the heat pump/furnace Chief describes about. Then I bought an older house that had an oil-fired boiler and hot water baseboard. THAT was the best heating I've ever had, but you pay dearly for that oil. I cycled through a few other different kinds until the house I'm in now, which has the electric heat pump/furnace set-up. You get used to it. It's not like you stick your feet down into the vents. Or is it?
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Actually the electric bill is lower on emergency heat.  Thats the gas furnace running.  Its higher when the heat pump runs

 
Uruk-Hai said:
You'll also get an electric bill you may not desire if you run the emergency heat too much :lol:

I never had any kind of central heat in a house I lived in until I was in my late 20s. The first was the heat pump/furnace Chief describes about. Then I bought an older house that had an oil-fired boiler and hot water baseboard. THAT was the best heating I've ever had, but you pay dearly for that oil. I cycled through a few other different kinds until the house I'm in now, which has the electric heat pump/furnace set-up. You get used to it. It's not like you stick your feet down into the vents. Or is it?
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I grew up with just heat pumps. My current home has an oil-fired boiler/hot water baseboard set up. I honestly had no idea what any of this meant when I bought it, and just assumed that I'd transition to a heat pump. Virginia seems pretty borderline on the heat pump only issue.

But anyway, you are absolutely correct, from my experience.  I absolutely love the heating oil/hot water baseboard set-up. I'm pretty hot-natured, so it's not even something I typically care about. I would've never even considered what "good heat" is. But man it really is. 

It's expensive, but I'm in no hurry to go back.  Of course, we don't have a huge house and the rooms are smaller (as is often the case in homes old enough to have this set-up), so the expense is not quite as outrageous. 

 
I've read the replies here and other places and Googled things. I am still no closer to knowing whether or not I should continue to not consider homes with a heat pump as the main source or not LOL

 
Helaire-ious said:
I've read the replies here and other places and Googled things. I am still no closer to knowing whether or not I should continue to not consider homes with a heat pump as the main source or not LOL
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Heat pump with natural gas furnace is a yes because you never have to even run the heat pump if you don't want

 
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Helaire-ious said:
I've read the replies here and other places and Googled things. I am still no closer to knowing whether or not I should continue to not consider homes with a heat pump as the main source or not LOL
Click to expand...
Scroll up and read my post again. 
 

I’m not sure you are understanding how a heat pump home works. Just because you have a heat pump doesn’t mean you have to use it for heat.

 
ChiefD said:
Scroll up and read my post again. 
 

I’m not sure you are understanding how a heat pump home works. Just because you have a heat pump doesn’t mean you have to use it for heat.
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lol don't be rude. Some homes out here only have a heat pump as the heating & cooling source. Read my post, no natural gas lines run to the home...

 
Helaire-ious said:
lol don't be rude. Some homes out here only have a heat pump as the heating & cooling source. Read my post, no natural gas lines run to the home...
Click to expand...
I thought I read on someone's post that the furnace part could also be electric.  So maybe a heat pump backed up with an electric furnace?  I live in CA where it rarely drops below 60 so I have no idea about all these fancy heating systems.  

 
Gally said:
I thought I read on someone's post that the furnace part could also be electric.  So maybe a heat pump backed up with an electric furnace?  I live in CA where it rarely drops below 60 so I have no idea about all these fancy heating systems.  
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The heat pumps here are electric, not gas or propane powered. I think you are confusing the systems

 
one guy who would tell you to go with sweet lady propane is hank hill take that to the bank bromigo

 
If you have to use propane, get your own tank.  Doing that you can shop prices and usually get a better price than if you have a contract with the company you are "renting" the tank from.  I had one 500 gallon tank, average use was about 1000-1200 gallons per year.  Was able to find a 2nd used propane tank that I purchased so now I only need to get one fill during winter (they only fill the tanks 80% for expansion).  Would really like to have a 1000 & 500 gallon so I could always fill in summer (lower price) and not have to worry during winter.  Last 3-4 years propane was cheap (at least here in WI, sometimes I see prices people pay out east and it seems 2-3x cost), well under $1.00/gal.  This year it went up quite a bit, was around $1.40 this summer when I filled so I pre-bought 600 gallons for this winter as I felt it was going to get more expensive (one year I didn't pre buy and price went over $4.00/gal and some people were not able to get it even paying more than this).  This ended up saving me about $0.20/gal as it was $1.86/gal when I called to get my pre-bought gallons.  In summary, get your own tank and if price isn't terrible and things seem shaky pre-buy your winter supply if you have to use propane.  If you can use natural gas do it!

 
yak651 said:
If you have to use propane, get your own tank.  Doing that you can shop prices and usually get a better price than if you have a contract with the company you are "renting" the tank from.  I had one 500 gallon tank, average use was about 1000-1200 gallons per year.  Was able to find a 2nd used propane tank that I purchased so now I only need to get one fill during winter (they only fill the tanks 80% for expansion).  Would really like to have a 1000 & 500 gallon so I could always fill in summer (lower price) and not have to worry during winter.  Last 3-4 years propane was cheap (at least here in WI, sometimes I see prices people pay out east and it seems 2-3x cost), well under $1.00/gal.  This year it went up quite a bit, was around $1.40 this summer when I filled so I pre-bought 600 gallons for this winter as I felt it was going to get more expensive (one year I didn't pre buy and price went over $4.00/gal and some people were not able to get it even paying more than this).  This ended up saving me about $0.20/gal as it was $1.86/gal when I called to get my pre-bought gallons.  In summary, get your own tank and if price isn't terrible and things seem shaky pre-buy your winter supply if you have to use propane.  If you can use natural gas do it!
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How much a year did you normally spend on heating the home? I have had gas my whole adult life and since I can remember, bills are anywhere from $60 to $125 a month in winter

 
Helaire-ious said:
How much a year did you normally spend on heating the home? I have had gas my whole adult life and since I can remember, bills are anywhere from $60 to $125 a month in winter
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I would have to check the spreadsheet I keep but off hand I would say $1000-$1200 a year for propane. We do have gas stove and hot water heater so it’s used year round, but you don’t get a monthly bill, just when you fill tanks. I’m sure companies would do some type of plan to distribute the cost over the year if you lease from them and sign a “keep full” contract(they monitor tank levels)

 
yak651 said:
I would have to check the spreadsheet I keep but off hand I would say $1000-$1200 a year for propane. We do have gas stove and hot water heater so it’s used year round, but you don’t get a monthly bill, just when you fill tanks. I’m sure companies would do some type of plan to distribute the cost over the year if you lease from them and sign a “keep full” contract(they monitor tank levels)
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This is for a 1,800 sq foot ranch and I also have a separate 24x40 garage/with upstairs studio that I keep heated year round 

 
Last 4 years

Date    Gallons    Cost/Gal    Total    Vendor    Amount Left    Season Use    Season Cost
1/16/2018    670    1.44    $964.80    Wolff River    130    1161.5    $1,480.38
7/5/2018    491.5    1.049    $515.58    Garrow Oil    308.5        
1/16/2019    565.4    1.08    $610.63    Wolff River    234.6    1165.5    $1,000.10
7/25/2019    600.1    0.649    $389.46    Garrow Oil    199.9        
1/21/2020    610.7    1.089    $665.05    Garrow Oil    189.3    1217.2    $1,138.12
7/2/2020    606.5    0.78    $473.07    Wolff River    193.5        
1/26/2021    560.4    1.539    $862.46    Garrow Oil    239.6    1027    $1,603.88
7/22/2021    466.6    1.589    $741.43    Garrow Oil    333.4        
1/31/2022    726    1.399    $1,015.67    Garrow Oil    74    726    $1,015.67
            $0.00        800        
 

Pretty dependent on the price per gallon, anywhere from $1,000 to $1,600, using propane sucks!

 
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