I can agree with this, but I would mean it as a knock on Hurts. Maybe not a knock, but a concern at least. No QB had an easier situation and I think Philly is nuts if they make him the highest paid QB in the league, I'd have no interest in extending him this offseason, and would want to see another year from Hurts.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
QB Daniel Jones, IND (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Interseptopus
- Start date
Not saying the Giants should give him what he wants, but it's not outrageous with the current salary cap/revenue of the league, to think that a middle of the road starter should get $40MM+/year.
zamboni
Footballguy
As stated above, that's unfortunately what the market is bearing for QBs. The Giants can decide to pay a bit less for a Jimmy G/Winston type (and it might not be a ton less in this market), or trade up to get a big time rookie QB, but for a team that's on the upswing, I doubt they want to take a step back.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Sometimes you take a massive step forward by taking a small step back. Paying Daniel Jones over $40 million guarantees the Giants lose Saquon Barkley and Julian Love, and might kill the planned extensions for McKinney/Jackson/Williams/etc.
This is insanity; the Giants are on the verge of legit destroying their team if they pay Daniel Jones that kind of money.
Last edited:
Insein
Footballguy
Giants would probably benefit by not paying him but they definitely would take a step back. Some team will pay him. Vegas, Atlanta looking for a solid QB and might be dumb enough to think Jones is it.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Agree the Giants would take a step back and if you are like us, an outsider looking in and your job is not on the line, handling the expectations of the team/lockeroom and fans are not at stake, then not paying Jones and kind of hoping you suck bad enough to draft a Williams or Maye sounds really appealing but I think it's different when you actually have to live with that decision for the next year-and still might not get one of those QB's.
But to your point someone will pay him if he reaches FA. Only way he's not sniffing something in the $40'ish million range next year is if he's tagged for less. And among teams that I'd think there would be mutual interest if he reached FA, provided they have not signed Carr, would be Carolina where he grew up.
The Frankman
Footballguy
What team is going to kill their cap on an unproven QB for 40+ million @Insein ? To be perfectly frank I don't think he's even worth $35 million either, his market is right around the $23-28 million area based on his stats/similar QBs around his a.k.a the number SPOTRAC came up with. You telling me Giants sign Daniel Jones 3/80? I'd not be a fan of the years but I'm fine with that AAV. Or even better, 2/55 with the third year an option year. He turns into a great QB, he can tear up the contract and actually deserve to get paid.
I keep saying this over and over, if Daboll is a great QB Whisperer he can whisper with Tyrod Taylor (only making 5.5 million this year) just as much as Jones and not nuke their team.
I keep saying this over and over, if Daboll is a great QB Whisperer he can whisper with Tyrod Taylor (only making 5.5 million this year) just as much as Jones and not nuke their team.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Probably worthy of its own thread, but the increase in the salary cap from year to year essentially is just paying the inflated contracts of non-rookie QBs. Sad but true.
As far as the Giants season went, I think it could have been a mirage and a lot of smoke and mirrors. Started the season 7-2 and ended the regular season 2-5-1. Sure, they had a nice win against the Vikes in the playoffs, but MIN was another team nowhere near as good as their record indicated that played way over their heads. The Giants allowed more points than they scored, and the only reason they got 9.5 wins was from ball security. They hardly coughed up the football all year. I am not sure that is sustainable or just a fluke (their TOs dropped from 30 to 16). Hats off to them if they have turned the corner in that regard, but they would be one of my leading candidates of teams that made the playoffs that will miss out next year.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Positional salary cap??
habsfan
Footballguy
Curious what the non Daniel Jones plan would be? Daboll is going to have to do more than blow in Tyrod Taylor's ear to get him through a season. If they let Jones walk, are fans planning on them being bad enough to draft someone high the following year or will they turn around and sign someone for even more than Jones will be?
fightingillini
Footballguy
The question is always.....can the NYG contend for a SB in the next 2-3 years with Daniel Jones as the QB?
I think the answer is no, so I would let him walk unless I can get the terms that Frankman suggests, which is unlikely. This reminds me of when CIN resigned Andy Dalton years back. They paid Dalton good money and he was an average at best QB. And CIN usually won 7-9 games a year and either barely missed the playoffs or made the playoffs and were eliminated in the wildcard. I can see the same scenario with Jones. Pay Jones 35-40M a year and the NYG will tread water with 7-9 wins a year which may make the playoffs but will never be in position to draft the next franchise QB. CIN became a contender when they got rid of Dalton, sucked bad, and drafted an actual franchise QB in Burrow.
It's hard to win the SB in today's NFL without a franchise QB.
Must be a typo on Jimmy G's contract but this seriously is not in the realm of possibility that Jones or Lamar would sign these kind of deals.
Terpman22
Footballguy
Lamar seems about right to me. Geno at $38M+ per year is hilarious though.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Jimmy was supposed to be 4/$139.7M.
Lamar's not taking an inferior contact to the one's Kyler, Watson and Wilson got last year.
Terpman22
Footballguy
Guy's without agents usually don't get great deals, but I have faith, but you are probably right it will be a bit higher.
I think Lamar and his camp have shown they fully understand his market and it is believed he already turned down a 5/250 offer last off-season that had the second most guarantees of any contract in NFL history. If PFF thinks he's worth 6/244 they are welcome to that opinion but if they think that's his actual market price they are ignorant.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I can't speak for PFF, but I believe they have an algorithm or formula that takes actual performance and spits out a potential contract value based off of that. I think that's what they are saying he is worth . . . not that is what he will sign for. Some players will get more than their projection, others will get less.
I may not agree with all of these but that makes a lot more sense.
tribe
Footballguy
Yeah that makes more sense but that is not market value. This sounds like their performance based value, whereas market value is what a player would command on open market.
I continue to think all this >$40MM talk for Jones is smoke coming from his camp. Hopefully the change in agents is similar to the Plax situation many years ago where he wanted to stay with the gmen and his first agent blew it to the point Accorsi told him to pound sand. Only then did Plax switch agents to someone who could get him the best deal but allowed him to stay with the Giants. Making the move now signals Jones knows he needs to get this done before the tag window forces moves. Just a theory, and contrary to everyone who thinks the move was so Jones could max out his value on the open market, but not out of the realm of possibility.
tribe
Footballguy
I think there is close to a zero percent chance that they move into next year with Tyrod being plan A. He’s 33 and lasted all of what, 4 plays before getting knocked out of the Bears game? I can’t see anyone in the organization betting their job on him carrying the team this year.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Betting on Daniel Jones at the contract number we are seeing basically is a massive eff you to Saquon Barkley. Daniel Jones is not an idiot; he knows the Giants cap situation and that the best thing his for him to sign w/o being tagged. That way, Giants can maybe still have the money to upkeep the running game/defense that kept Daniel Jones from having to actually go out and win games. Never mind the absurdity of him wanting $40 million, but the fact of the matter is people keep saying Jones had nothing to work with in 2022 while ignoring the numbers that he did really little of the heavy lifting on the offense. How is paying that much money to Jones (which means no Saquon, losing key defenders and no getting other offensive help) going to suddenly make him/the offense better? Those dumpoff RPOs aren't going to work that well with Gary Brightwell at RB and I doubt teams are going to fear seeing him lined up at WR/in the Wildcat either.
That's why this is taking so long IMHO; Giants have until March 7th and they're doing their due diligence trying to get Jones to listen to reason. If they can't, Schoen should just let Jones hit the open market because it would be fiscally irresponsible to commit that kind of money to him. Recency bias is a scary thing; I'm not saying Tyrod Taylor is some great QB but playing him or signing another QB could at least allow the Giants to keep their core offensive/defensive guys.
That's why this is taking so long IMHO; Giants have until March 7th and they're doing their due diligence trying to get Jones to listen to reason. If they can't, Schoen should just let Jones hit the open market because it would be fiscally irresponsible to commit that kind of money to him. Recency bias is a scary thing; I'm not saying Tyrod Taylor is some great QB but playing him or signing another QB could at least allow the Giants to keep their core offensive/defensive guys.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
It may be crazy. But this is the nfl we have today. If you have a QB on your team that you can win games with and get to the playoffs with you have to overpay or get damn lucky if you don’t.
Look, the Cowboys definitely over paid for Prescott, but they really didn’t have a choice. They basically had 2 choices, over pay or let him walk and roll with whoever else they could find. Should they have rolled with Cooper Rush? They would not have made the playoffs..
There is not 32 QBs on the planet that can lead a team to the NFL playoffs. If a team has one that can they almost have to overpay to keep him
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
With Jones I have serious doubts.
Yes, he had a great year. But watching most of his games (I had Saquan in redraft) I saw him making the same mistakes that have plagued him his entire career:
• overthrowing wide open receivers deep with no pressure
• 1-read and run - rarely checked down
• staring down receivers leading to picks and balls batted at the line or by ball hawk DBs
• missing the bunny throws to Saquan in the flat 3-5 yards out
Daboll did a lot to hide these problems - and the result was a playoff appearance.
Was that because of Jones? I have my doubts.
Shanahan just had Brock Purdy get them to the playoffs. Did Brock Purdy put the team on his back and steward them there? Would you pay Brock Purdy 40M a year? I wouldn’t.
Same goes for Jones. Now it sounds like they’re going to have to franchise him, which means letting Barkley go.
Without Saquan this might be a different offense. Even paying Jones 32M might constrain their ability to get OL, WR, LB help that they clearly need.
To that I say, good luck with that.
Hey, maybe Jones really is great and I’m wildly misjudging him & the Giants situation. I concede that’s absolutely possible.
But IMO a QB should be able to throw to the RB in the flat every single time. Every time. And by his 3rd or 4th year in the league it should be an automatic completion. And Jones missed that throw over and over again. Back to Purdy, he made that throw in his 1st game action, in his rookie season, and he was Mr. Irrelevant.
Kinda makes a fella wonder, don't it?
/Squirrelly Dan
tribe
Footballguy
Reports are they don’t want to use the franchise tag on Barkley and chew up that much cap space for an RB. They continue to look in the +/-$12MM range multi year deal where they can spread out the $$$s and drop his cap #. But yeah, agree they can’t overpay Jones to the tune of not being able to afford anyone around him, Barkley or not.
I don't think it is smoke. Now not saying he won't accept say $35-37M on a multi year deal but I think Jones and his camp understand his leverage. That leverage puts his floor at $32.416m or UFA with likely several suitors and I believe his camp feels if he gets to that point they can maximize his pay even more.
Generally, unless the player does not believe in himself, you got to overshoot the first year tag amount to get them to agree because at that point you are negotiating not only against that tag amount but the player realizing once he either gets a higher tag amount the following year or they reach UFA. So really now way I can see where he's going to accept any kind of deal close to $32.4M.
Look at from Jones angle.
Option A: $32.416m for 2023 and UFA in 2024(or another much higher tag amount)
Option B: sign a multi year deal for something in the $35m neighborhood.
The only way Option B would make any sense for the player would be if they did not believe in themselves and their ability to have a market in UFA, and I don't think Jones feels that way.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
For every Purdy, how many QBs that are drafted don’t pan out?
I don’t think Jones is worth near what he wants. But if he walks, who’s starting at QB for the Giants this year?
It’s tough
tribe
Footballguy
Right. By smoke I mean I don’t believe he’ll walk if the gmen don’t go over $40MM. He’s smart enough to know he’s in a good situation with DaBoll and taking every last $$$ will cripple his ability to win in the future. I continue to think this gets done in a $35 range but nothing surprises me anymore. I’m honestly more concerned about the gmens ability to get out of the deal in 2 or 3 years if this crashes and burns.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Another Jones angle is they didn’t extend him on the cheap because they seemingly didn’t believe in him long-term, so some of this might be resentment. I wouldn’t blame him for this. I’m just sayin - man wants to get paid.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah, I don’t disagree at all.
Giants painted themselves into one corner by not extending Jones, and into another by making the playoffs.
Their best bet would probably be be to start Tyrod aiming for the 1.01 next year. But the fans got a taste - now they’re looking at big money for DJ.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Tyrod hasn't been a regular starter since 2017 and has been a backup for 4 franchises since then. Starting Taylor would cause a fan revolt. Worst case they franchise Jones. Best case they work out a multi-year deal and then re-sign Saquon. I don't really see a scenario where Jones is playing elsewhere next year (I mean, I suppose they could try to trade his rights to another team . . . but I think that's unlikely). But if the Giants didn't have Jones back next season, they would more likely either draft a rookie or dip into the placeholder free agents at QB (or both). I just don't see them rolling out Taylor as their QB1.
Yes I forgot to mention that to address suggestions he should not try and maximize his pay for the good of the team, which almost no one truly does anyway, Brady is only one I can think of I feel did not try and leverage out his pay.
But back to Jones the Giants are in this situation because they did not want to extend him and chose to not pick up his 5th year option-which now looks like a mistake. Jones seem pretty level headed and I'm not sure if he's resentful but he's certainly aware the team put a low value on him and part of a multi year big money contract is not only getting paid but being appreciated and shown committment. I'm sure any of us in his shoes would want the same thing. I'm absolutely positively not in the camp which believes he should take less for the good of a team that did not put any value on him last year and in terms of building out the roster and handling the cap after paying him that's their jobs. Players are just not out here taking less, very rare.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Most players don't have a wife worth $400M. Even without factoring her in, Brady made so much extra money on endorsements and his TB12 brand that taking a lower salary didn't really impact him all that much.
Last edited:
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
give him the non-exclusive tag. let him see his market. I'd take two firsts for him. would mean saquon is probably gone.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
100% agreed.
And maybe resentful wasn’t the correct term - under-appreciated is a better description of what I was going for there, thanks.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Doesn't mean you choose the potion that guts your team though. It's a hard situation due the the past regime, but it's not like Jones is blameless in this either. The choice is go with Taylor for a year whiel you sign all your FAs and extend your key players at other positions, pay Jones $40+ million and lose out on improving the team AND lose key players on said team, or pay Jones a more reasonable salary with a lower AAV and re-sign key players like Saquon Barkley (might lose Big Cat and Ximines down the line) and maybe have enough for a FA acquisition.
This is what I'm seeing that people who are not Giants fans on this board are not getting: There is no projection that you can use for Daniel Jones where he loses a talent like Saquon Barkley and the Giants somehow improve. It just pushes the Giants closer to The Line That Shalt Not Be Crossed, which is asking Daniel Jones to win games. And there's a ton of evidence on how that went.
In hindsight? Sure, but by no stretch of the imagination was 2021 Daniel Jones worth 22 million dollars. This situation with Daniel Jones is basically the Family Guy situation of the cool girl (Connie D'Amico) taking Chris Griffin to the prom and remaking him into a popular guy, and then Chris dumping her to date all the other cool girls.
Last edited:
The Frankman
Footballguy
The regular Franchise tag would hurt also @IHEARTFF because all that money would be on the cap, and it would force the Giants to have to sign Barkley to a longterm deal. Ideally, the Giants can franchise tag Barkley for only $10 million and Jones for ... let's say 3/89 (27 million AAV the first year with a 10% yearly increase so in Year 3 he'd make slightly under 33 million). Now the Giants can build around him properly.
that doesn't seem like a real option though
The Frankman
Footballguy
Neither is paying Jones $40 million AAV. Dan Duggan broke down the cap situation in The Athletic (if you don't have the Athletic I copy/pasted the article in the Giants team thread in two parts) but the Franchise Tag for Jones/the posted salary AAV for jones would destroy the cap and put them at risk of losing not only Saquon Barkley but McKinney/Lawrence/Adoree Jackson and a number of other guys.
Now the non-Exclusive tag would be an interesting move; sure the $32.4 million cap hit for 2023 would hurt, but if teams are really as gung-ho about signing Jones as some people here believe, they'll pony up two 1sts for him.
Now the non-Exclusive tag would be an interesting move; sure the $32.4 million cap hit for 2023 would hurt, but if teams are really as gung-ho about signing Jones as some people here believe, they'll pony up two 1sts for him.
Last edited:
Boston
Footballguy
100%...I just can't take anyone seriously unless they factor this into the equation of this type of situation.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Breaking: Daniel Jones & his new agent are delusional
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
One would think.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
@FBG Moderator - Why doesn’t this thread bump? I don’t see it on the 1st page. I had to search for it. Weird.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Obviously bluster by his new agents trying to earn their share.
Similar threads
