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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (1 Viewer)

My understanding is the NFL can appeal and the ultimate decision rests with... Roger Goodell
That’s right
And then Watson can appeal Goodell's decision which goes before a different federal judge who has to follow the same procedure as Judge Robinson and then while Watson is appealing Goodell's decision, he would be free to play EVERY GAME until his appeal of Goodell's ruling was heard.

That action would undermine the CBA, drag then NFL through a lengthy and public appeal process, and likely invite unrest with the players just to extend a suspension.  

 
And then Watson can appeal Goodell's decision which goes before a different federal judge who has to follow the same procedure as Judge Robinson and then while Watson is appealing Goodell's decision, he would be free to play EVERY GAME until his appeal of Goodell's ruling was heard.

That action would undermine the CBA, drag then NFL through a lengthy and public appeal process, and likely invite unrest with the players just to extend a suspension.  
The difference is, once it goes to court, it becomes a labor law case. They will review whether the league followed collectively bargained processes. Like with Brady, all they do is determine if the league followed their own rules and if they have a right to suspend Watson. That’s why players lose in court. Goodell still retains the right to determine the length of the suspension. 

 
And then Watson can appeal Goodell's decision which goes before a different federal judge who has to follow the same procedure as Judge Robinson and then while Watson is appealing Goodell's decision, he would be free to play EVERY GAME until his appeal of Goodell's ruling was heard.

That action would undermine the CBA, drag then NFL through a lengthy and public appeal process, and likely invite unrest with the players just to extend a suspension.  
And from what I've read up on a few weeks ago if this got to federal court the NFLPA would try and air dirty laundry in the form of highlighting misconduct by some owners and how they are seemingly held to a different standard. This the NFL does not want.

 
The difference is, once it goes to court, it becomes a labor law case. They will review whether the league followed collectively bargained processes. Like with Brady, all they do is determine if the league followed their own rules and if they have a right to suspend Watson. That’s why players lose in court. Goodell still retains the right to determine the length of the suspension. 
It would be interesting to see if his attorneys bring disparate treatment into their argument here. Probably a losing argument, but does the NFL really want to go there? 

 
And then Watson can appeal Goodell's decision which goes before a different federal judge who has to follow the same procedure as Judge Robinson and then while Watson is appealing Goodell's decision, he would be free to play EVERY GAME until his appeal of Goodell's ruling was heard.

That action would undermine the CBA, drag then NFL through a lengthy and public appeal process, and likely invite unrest with the players just to extend a suspension.  
It's an appeal he's likely to lose, since the NFL would have followed the collective bargaining agreement, which is all the court would review.  If Goodell plays it smart and issues a 10-11 game suspension, it's also financially a losing move for Watson to appeal. Is it better to accept a loss of 10 games pay this year or get an injunction, play this year and lose games next year when each one is worth 40 times as much money?

 
[Rosenthal] Respect for this new discipline process wouldn't stop the NFL from appealing. The appeal to Goodell *is* the process. Either the NFL didn't truly want Watson gone for 2022 or he'll still wind up out this season. I'd guess the latter.

https://twitter.com/greggrosenthal/status/1554116612101328896?s=21&t=AHC8tlUkpzfESJL8fXqUig

[Breer] Few things on Sue Robinson's 15-page conclusion on Deshaun Watson ... • Based on 4 cases brought by the NFL. 5th case was thrown out bc the NFL didn't interview the woman. • NFL interviewed total of 12 women. • SR criticized NFL for making calls based on public perception.

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1554119360255598594

 
It's an appeal he's likely to lose, since the NFL would have followed the collective bargaining agreement, which is all the court would review.  If Goodell plays it smart and issues a 10-11 game suspension, it's also financially a losing move for Watson to appeal. Is it better to accept a loss of 10 games pay this year or get an injunction, play this year and lose games next year when each one is worth 40 times as much money?
Yeah, this is a theme that’s come up here a few times. Watson’s contract strongly favors taking his lumps while it’s cheap. 

There’s also the question of whether Goodell can issue a fine. I’m not sure I’ve seen that discussed. I’ve seen plenty of articles suggesting Goodell can increase the suspension, but Does anyone known if he can impose a fine? 

 
The difference is, once it goes to court, it becomes a labor law case. They will review whether the league followed collectively bargained processes.
If the NFL appeals, where they file the appeal is critical because they will undoubtably file in NY so they can cite previous cases heard in NY that determined Goodell as the final say.

If the appeals judge went by the current CBA they would be held to using the same evidence as Judge Robinson and would reach the same decision but if filed in NY they would simply cite previous decisions handed down where the commissioner held final say and not cite the current CBA.

Goodell overriding Robinson's decision would undermine the current CBA and be open to an appeals process and would surely invite player unrest and be a PR nightmare in order to extend a suspension.

 
Goodell overriding Robinson's decision would undermine the current CBA and be open to an appeals process and would surely invite player unrest and be a PR nightmare in order to extend a suspension.
I was under the impression that a Goodell override is a process that’s entirely within the constraints of the current CBA. 

How would it undermine it? 

 
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Yeah but you know these are apples and oranges. One could affect outcomes of games.   That’s the difference. Guy who gambles could get in deep and their way out is to throw games. What Watson did was bad but it didn’t affect the integrity of the game itself 


I agree, but somehow it feels different when they bet on their own teams to win. 

If they bet to lose they could throw the game.

 
If the NFL appeals, where they file the appeal is critical because they will undoubtably file in NY so they can cite previous cases heard in NY that determined Goodell as the final say.

If the appeals judge went by the current CBA they would be held to using the same evidence as Judge Robinson and would reach the same decision but if filed in NY they would simply cite previous decisions handed down where the commissioner held final say and not cite the current CBA.

Goodell overriding Robinson's decision would undermine the current CBA and be open to an appeals process and would surely invite player unrest and be a PR nightmare in order to extend a suspension.
Again, Goodell can override the penalty without undermining the CBA. That's part of the CBA. He (and the court) are bound by the evidentiary findings of the arbitrator. Those say Watson committed the actions and deserves to be punished. The EXTENT of the punishment is not binding and Goodell has the final say-so on that.

 
More details from Breer who is on top of things.

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Albert Breer@AlbertBreer

4) If the NFL appeals, and Goodell overturns, it could actually lead to Watson playing in the opener. If Watson were to file a lawsuit, the union/his camp would likely seek a TRO to put a stay on the suspension. If they got one ... he'd play while the case was in court.

5) So the NFL now has three days to appeal. I'd imagine they'll be paying close attention to public reaction over that time. And if they do appeal, it has to be based on Robinson's process. The facts of the cases (remember, it's five cases) presented are already established.

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Breer is 'technically' correct saying their appeal has to be based on Robinson's process using the exact same facts of the case already established UNLESS the league files their appeal in NY where they could cite precedence using the past CBA that stated that the commissioner has final say which they surely would IF they decide to appeal.

If they go by the current CBA the appeal judge has to follow the exact same procedure as Robinson and would 'likely' come to the same conclusion.

 
More details from Breer who is on top of things.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Albert Breer@AlbertBreer

4) If the NFL appeals, and Goodell overturns, it could actually lead to Watson playing in the opener. If Watson were to file a lawsuit, the union/his camp would likely seek a TRO to put a stay on the suspension. If they got one ... he'd play while the case was in court.

5) So the NFL now has three days to appeal. I'd imagine they'll be paying close attention to public reaction over that time. And if they do appeal, it has to be based on Robinson's process. The facts of the cases (remember, it's five cases) presented are already established.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Breer is 'technically' correct saying their appeal has to be based on Robinson's process using the exact same facts of the case already established UNLESS the league files their appeal in NY where they could cite precedence using the past CBA that stated that the commissioner has final say which they surely would IF they decide to appeal.

If they go by the current CBA the appeal judge has to follow the exact same procedure as Robinson and would 'likely' come to the same conclusion.
I hope he's right. I'd much rather see Watson serve a 6 game suspension next year and lose $15 million than see him serve a 10 game suspension this year and lose $588,000.

 
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I agree, but somehow it feels different when they bet on their own teams to win. 

If they bet to lose they could throw the game.
This is the “Pete Rose”’ school of thought. People defended him for years because he “only bet on his team to win” (and I’m not certain if that was ever proved to be true or just something Pete said a lot).

But that also has a negative impact. In Rose’s case, as player/manager, if he had a 3 run lead, he might bring out his best middle reliever who’d already pitched 3 straight games to protect the 2.5 point spread, putting a player at Heath risk, and/or making them unavailable for the next game. If Rose managed a meaningless game in August like it was game 7 of the WS, it might result in losing other future games that were less important to Rose, personally. 

Likewise in the NFL. If you have a coach who’s winning a game 31-28 with possession & 4 mins to play, running the clock and trying to win 31-28 would be the way to manage that game. But what if the spread favored that team by 10.5? Now they’re gonna go for a meaningless TD to cover the spread? Lots of ways to lose when you’re trying to put a scoring drive together and don’t need to. In a player’s case, it might mean the difference between a RB scoring a meaningless TD or smartly falling down at the 4 yard line (ala Todd Gurley, who should have had a 4 TD game  :rant:

Betting on games is betting on games, regardless of which way one bets. Sure, throwing a game is an obviously terrible, immoral course of action. But it’s no more noble to bet on one’s team to win, and it can absolutely have a negative consequence. 

 
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Again, Goodell can override the penalty without undermining the CBA. That's part of the CBA. He (and the court) are bound by the evidentiary findings of the arbitrator. Those say Watson committed the actions and deserves to be punished. The EXTENT of the punishment is not binding and Goodell has the final say-so on that.
Thank you. That was my understanding. I don’t understand the “undermining the CBA” bit, since it’s part of the CBA. 

 
I think the argument that it undermines public trust in the NFL is that it shows Robinson's role to be an almost meaningless step in the process and really says that Goodell still gets to do whatever he wants to on discipline. The point of modifying the CBA was to change that perception.

I realize her decision is important as she defines the facts from the evidence and had the authority to terminate the process if she found no violation, but Goodell being able to changing the federal judge's determination emphasizes that it is still essentially a Goodell does whatever he wants to system.

 
Again, Goodell can override the penalty without undermining the CBA. That's part of the CBA. He (and the court) are bound by the evidentiary findings of the arbitrator. Those say Watson committed the actions and deserves to be punished. The EXTENT of the punishment is not binding and Goodell has the final say-so on that.
Sure. The problem (imo) comes when godell increases the discipline and Watson appeals to federal court.  His attorneys argue that the NFL pursued discipline here, and did not in other cases, for protected class reasons. That argument probably goes nowhere, but all you need is an “activist” judge to see things differently. Don’t open that door. 

 
So essentially, the Judge found a violation of the policy, and recommended a 6-game suspension.   Goodell can then take that recommendation or add/subtract games and/or fines to that. Correct?  
 

What would be appealable for the NFLPA, just the finding of a violation of policy within the CBA or misapplication of the CBA itself ?

 
but Goodell being able to changing the federal judge's determination emphasizes that it is still essentially a Goodell does whatever he wants to system.
which, of course, it is. The NFL is literally a monopoly run by a group of Oligarchs who’ve installed a lawyer as their mouthpiece. 

And Goodell having that unilateral power is wholly within the constraints of the NFLPA’s agreement.

We all just like to pretend the league is something it isn’t. The players unions of pro sports are a joke compared to the Teamsters or UHW.  Sure, they can bargain, players can strike, there are small victories here and there.

But don’t make the mistake of believing the NFL is like a regular business. 

 
Sure. The problem (imo) comes when godell increases the discipline and Watson appeals to federal court.  His attorneys argue that the NFL pursued discipline here, and did not in other cases, for protected class reasons. That argument probably goes nowhere, but all you need is an “activist” judge to see things differently. Don’t open that door. 
I haven’t read the CBA, but my educated guess is that Owners are not governed by the CBA at all.  So such an argument is totally without merit or relevance. 

 
Sure. The problem (imo) comes when godell increases the discipline and Watson appeals to federal court.  His attorneys argue that the NFL pursued discipline here, and did not in other cases, for protected class reasons. That argument probably goes nowhere, but all you need is an “activist” judge to see things differently. Don’t open that door. 
I still think it’s a bluff. If Goodell ups it to 12 games, Watson’s team will advise him to take his lumps. The Browns won’t love it, but the owners will side with the commish, not Watson. 

 
I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL rides with this decision. 

I don't think the NFL wants to drag this out more, this was a judge's decision, they can pass the blame for a "light" suspension. The Browns losing their QB for 6 weeks makes the playoffs a long shot, I dunno if the rest of the league wants to punish the team (maybe for that contract.) 
Yes, plus while the league can appeal to Roger Goddell, I see that as a one-time-only event that will be prevented for future use as soon as the first use is completed.  I think Goddell wants to keep that in his back pocket rather than burn it up here.

 
Comparing this with Ridley is like comparing apples to motor oil. Ridley's suspension is 100% deserved in my opinion, as its a slippery slope to calling into question the very integrity of the sport itself. Nothing is more important to the continued success of the NFL, than making absolutely sure players are on the up and up.

I would have liked to see a bigger suspension for Watson, but its tough without the legal system doing more. Watson's offenses simply don't move the needle for a year suspension unless there is evidence to suggest more than what we know, which it appears there isn't.

I would also posit, that this could potentially bode well for Kamara as well, as again, his offense has nothing to do with the NFL, so as long as the legal system doesn't drop the hammer on him, I would think a 0-4 game suspension is in his future. 
A big difference maker here is that a grand jury looked at the case and found no probable cause for any charges.  I seriously doubt a GJ would do that in the Kamara case if given the chance.

 
[Trotter] The Cleveland Rape Crises Center sent the following statement to ESPN, saying it is "disappointed" with Sue L. Robinson's ruling on Deshaun Watson:

https://twitter.com/Jake_Trotter/status/1554126425082437633?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

[Medcalf] The NFL suspended Terrelle Pryor 5 games for free tattoos he received at Ohio State. More than two dozen accusations of sexual assault, harassment and improper behavior will get you about the same thing in the NFL, apparently. Look forward to all those "we care about women" PSAs.

https://twitter.com/medcalfbyespn/status/1554091562459709447?s=21&t=trEKvtUOQvrErFZXboVLVQ

 
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I think the argument that it undermines public trust in the NFL is that it shows Robinson's role to be an almost meaningless step in the process and really says that Goodell still gets to do whatever he wants to on discipline. The point of modifying the CBA was to change that perception.

I realize her decision is important as she defines the facts from the evidence and had the authority to terminate the process if she found no violation, but Goodell being able to changing the federal judge's determination emphasizes that it is still essentially a Goodell does whatever he wants to system.
Plus the NFL and the NFLPA agreed on her as the arbitrator, all evidence was presented to her and she ruled accordingly.   For me, the appeal process is good for the player to use but if the NFL uses this route, even though they can, really just shows the players that it’s really the same as before, especially since this is the first time a neutral arbitrator makes a recommendation. 

 
I still think it’s a bluff. If Goodell ups it to 12 games, Watson’s team will advise him to take his lumps. The Browns won’t love it, but the owners will side with the commish, not Watson. 
Could be. I don’t know. Is another 6 games worth it? 
Of course, I start by thinking the 6 games for the 4 complaints considered, to be reasonable. 

 
Again, Goodell can override the penalty without undermining the CBA.
And Watson can appeal his decision and get a TRO to play in the opener and would 'likely' play the entire season.  The league understands they would create a PR nightmare if that happens.

Goodell can do anything he wants but Watson can appeal and for what purpose?  To lengthen a suspension. 

The Commish can add punishment.  The next step would be an appeal.  The appeal would be heard by a hearing officer and the HEARING OFFICER'S ruling is final and binding.

----------------------------------------------------------

Ownership and club or league management have traditionally been held to a higher standard and will be subject to more significant discipline when violations of the Personal Conduct Policy occur.

NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement

Article 46

Commissioner Discipline

...The NFL will have the burden of establishing that the player violated the Personal Conduct Policy.

Section 2. Hearings

Hearing Officers. For appeals under Section 1(a) above, the Commissioner shall, after consultation with the Executive Director of the NFLPA, appoint one or more designees to serve as hearing officers...

...Decision. ...the hearing officer will render a written decision which will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s), Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement with respect to that dispute. Any discipline imposed pursuant to Section 1(b) may only be affirmed, reduced, or vacated by the hearing officer, and may not be increased.

 
Could be. I don’t know. Is another 6 games worth it? 
Of course, I start by thinking the 6 games for the 4 complaints considered, to be reasonable. 
I think it’s pretty reasonable as well. That said, I know Goodell was pushing for 12

so maybe he splits the difference and ups it to 10.

Would +4 games be enough for team Watson to start a war that could potentially cost him 10s of millions?

It’ll be interesting to watch this play out. 

Also it has to be said: 0 games was a  fantasy, and based on her ruling, it seems safe to say that Robinson saw enough evidence that we can now definitively conclude that Watson did do some creepy, and possibly illegal ####.  

 
This is the “Pete Rose”’ school of thought. People defended him for years because he “only bet on his team to win” (and I’m not certain if that was ever proved to be true or just something Pete said a lot).

But that also has a negative impact. In Rose’s case, as player/manager, if he had a 3 run lead, he might bring out his best middle reliever who’d already pitched 3 straight games to protect the 2.5 point spread, putting a player at Heath risk, and/or making them unavailable for the next game. If Rose managed a meaningless game in August like it was game 7 of the WS, it might result in losing other future games that were less important to Rose, personally. 

Likewise in the NFL. If you have a coach who’s winning a game 31-28 with possession & 4 mins to play, running the clock and trying to win 31-28 would be the way to manage that game. But what if the spread favored that team by 10.5? Now they’re gonna go for a meaningless TD to cover the spread? Lots of ways to lose when you’re trying to put a scoring drive together and don’t need to. 

Betting on games is betting on games, regardless of which way one bets. Sure, throwing a game is an obviously terrible, immoral course of action. But it’s no more noble to bet on one’s team to win, and it can absolutely have a negative consequence. 


Not like we haven't seen strange things that that before, as All Michaels likes to point out ever week.

 
And Watson can appeal his decision and get a TRO to play in the opener and would 'likely' play the entire season.  The league understands they would create a PR nightmare if that happens.
it would also be economic suicide for team Watson to push the suspension to 2023.

Never gonna happen, IMO. 

 
Also it has to be said: 0 games was a  fantasy, and based on her ruling, it seems safe to say that Robinson saw enough evidence that we can now definitively conclude that Watson did do some creepy, and possibly illegal ####.  
I believe the PCP states if you are found in violation of it you get a min of 6 games.  I think that he was in violation of the PCP from the creepy standpoint and that was enough to get the six games and that was per the PCP.

I don't think we can conclude that he did illegal things based on this ruling.  The PCP doesn't require illegal.  It requires the perception of illegal/creepy/non upstanding citizen things.  I think this qualifies under that definition.  

 
Not like we haven't seen strange things that that before, as All Michaels likes to point out ever week.
Sure, strange things happen. Players are human and so stupid ####. 

But good players play smart. My Gurley example above (I edited the post you quoted). Good players have clock / scenario awareness, and know a 1st down can win the game. If they run into the end zone & give life to their opponent, people will wonder why.

Similarly, look at the Calvin Ridley reel someone did after his gambling suspension. He had several sure fire beat the coverage walk-in TDs where he made terrible, inexplicable decisions that allowed him to be tackled. After seeing that, I will believe to my dying breath that Ridley was throwing those games. 

 
I believe the PCP states if you are found in violation of it you get a min of 6 games.  I think that he was in violation of the PCP from the creepy standpoint and that was enough to get the six games and that was per the PCP.

I don't think we can conclude that he did illegal things based on this ruling.  The PCP doesn't require illegal.  It requires the perception of illegal/creepy/non upstanding citizen things.  I think this qualifies under that definition.  
That’s why I said “possibly”. We’ll never know.

But definitely creepy. 

 
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Now we wait for Goodell?

fun! 

Where all them “0 suspension!” bros at? I’d say the over hit on this one.

:pokey:
Where are all the season long/lifetime ban bros? 
 

I was in the six to eight game camp myself. Stated in this marathon thread somewhere. 
 

Hoping Rog leaves it alone and we can move on. 

 
I believe the PCP states if you are found in violation of it you get a min of 6 games.  I think that he was in violation of the PCP from the creepy standpoint and that was enough to get the six games and that was per the PCP.

I don't think we can conclude that he did illegal things based on this ruling.  The PCP doesn't require illegal.  It requires the perception of illegal/creepy/non upstanding citizen things.  I think this qualifies under that definition.  
Right,  her ruling has zero to do with whether or not Watson did anything illegal.

And for the record from the time this story broke until now the only thing he ever seemed to do which could be construed as illegal was public indecency and that's a maybe. Other then that he was just a guy  with a fetish who liked trying to see how far he could take some of his massages. I do not and have not at any time ever felt he forced anyone to do anything and it would appear the grand jury, the NFL based on the case they submitted and Sue Robinson all feel the same way.

 
And Watson can appeal his decision and get a TRO to play in the opener and would 'likely' play the entire season.  The league understands they would create a PR nightmare if that happens.

Goodell can do anything he wants but Watson can appeal and for what purpose?  To lengthen a suspension. 

The Commish can add punishment.  The next step would be an appeal.  The appeal would be heard by a hearing officer and the HEARING OFFICER'S ruling is final and binding.

----------------------------------------------------------

Ownership and club or league management have traditionally been held to a higher standard and will be subject to more significant discipline when violations of the Personal Conduct Policy occur.

NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement

Article 46

Commissioner Discipline

...The NFL will have the burden of establishing that the player violated the Personal Conduct Policy.

Section 2. Hearings

Hearing Officers. For appeals under Section 1(a) above, the Commissioner shall, after consultation with the Executive Director of the NFLPA, appoint one or more designees to serve as hearing officers...

...Decision. ...the hearing officer will render a written decision which will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s), Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement with respect to that dispute. Any discipline imposed pursuant to Section 1(b) may only be affirmed, reduced, or vacated by the hearing officer, and may not be increased.
Section 1(b) applies to discipline for unnecessary roughness and on field behavior. The language you quoted is inapplicable to this.  Instead, it's 

The Disciplinary Officer’s disciplinary determination will be final and binding subject only to the right of either party to appeal to the Commissioner. The appeal shall be in writing within three business days of the Disciplinary Officer’s decision, and any response to the appeal shall be filed in writing within two business days thereafter. The appeal shall be limited to arguments why, based on the evidentiary record below, the amount of discipline, if any, should be modified. The Commissioner or his designee will issue a written decision that will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s), Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement.

 

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