rockaction
Footballguy
After hearing the stories about Cal McNair and how he runs the team, I don't find it hard to believe at all that he's that incompetent when it comes to protecting his own self-interest.
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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
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GregR
Footballguy
More after a little more thinking.
I am guessing if the Texans are named a defendant in the suit, that any investigations they did into Watson's conduct, would then have to be shared with the plaintiffs via discovery. Actual lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong there.
If that is true, then if there is enough they can be added to the suit without it being immediately thrown out, it seems to the women's benefit to do so to get their hands on that info. Even if there isn't enough to actually win a judgment or settlement from the team if it goes to trial.
Which isn't me giving the Texans a pass. At this point we don't know what transpired. The two things are they gave him a standard NDA form, and they booked him rooms at the hotel spa. I can write you reasonable versions including those events that would leave the team either very culpable, or not at fault. And there isn't enough to go on to know which might be the case, or where it might be in the middle.
So, much like I did when the first suit came out against Deshaun, I'll reserve judgment until hearing more. If it goes how Deshaun's did and the evidence seems to keep piling up and it implicates the team in knowingly they were helping him harass women, then they should reap the outcome.
I am guessing if the Texans are named a defendant in the suit, that any investigations they did into Watson's conduct, would then have to be shared with the plaintiffs via discovery. Actual lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong there.
If that is true, then if there is enough they can be added to the suit without it being immediately thrown out, it seems to the women's benefit to do so to get their hands on that info. Even if there isn't enough to actually win a judgment or settlement from the team if it goes to trial.
Which isn't me giving the Texans a pass. At this point we don't know what transpired. The two things are they gave him a standard NDA form, and they booked him rooms at the hotel spa. I can write you reasonable versions including those events that would leave the team either very culpable, or not at fault. And there isn't enough to go on to know which might be the case, or where it might be in the middle.
So, much like I did when the first suit came out against Deshaun, I'll reserve judgment until hearing more. If it goes how Deshaun's did and the evidence seems to keep piling up and it implicates the team in knowingly they were helping him harass women, then they should reap the outcome.
dhockster
Footballguy
The thing that scares me the most for the Texans is that when the majority of these suits took place, March 2020 to December 2020, the Texans were being managed by McNair/Easterby/O'Brien. O'Brien was fired at the end of September 2020, but my guess is Romeo Crennel, the interim coach, really didn't have any other say in the management of the team other than coaching the team on the field. Those three together (McNair/Easterby/O'Brien) are wildly incompetent, and if they did become aware of what Deshaun was doing, my opinion is they would have probably tried to contain the problem and protect their franchise QB than actually trying to investigate the issue to find out what Watson was doing and then holding him accountable for his actions. It will be interesting to find out what evidence Buzbee has about what the Texans knew about Deshaun.
rockaction
Footballguy
Still a bizarre development that he wanted out -- no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But he shares an agent with Jalen Ramsey, who held the Jaguars up by claiming back problems prevented him from playing and participating in team activities only to be fine as soon as he was dealt to the Rams and signed an extension.
These guys get coached by their agents. Maybe Watson knew he'd get extended like he did and wanted that money now. He sure has an agent that would see to it that he took the necessary measures to get it.
Really? I thought that was all pretty cut and dry. Sure I'll say it's highly unusual to cry about an extension an want out just a few months later but this all had to do with McNair promising Watson a role in the hiring process of the new coach and GM and then proceeding to hire Caserio without telling Watson or giving him any say. Watson clearly took that as McNair lying to him and probably corrected identified who really holds the power, who has the owners ear, and that would be Easterby.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Why did the Browns even involve themselves in this ####-storm? Just so dumb. I hate it when people say "Browns gonna Brown." But they sure can make it hard to shut that sort of thing down with this sort of idiotic behavior.
GregR
Footballguy
Yes, this. And it came on the heels of all sorts of stupid moves. At the time, the reaction of a lot of Texans fans was that we had a hard time blaming him for wanting out. It wasn't until everything else broke and it started to become apparent how badly he'd treated the women that he finally lost everyone who'd been on his side.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I get what the Browns were trying to accomplish. They've got a good roster. They just have quite a bit of uncertainty at the QB position, and they were going to have to make a really expensive decision about Mayfield. There is no similar question about Watson's talent level. They might be a playoff team with Mayfield, but they're a championship contender with Watson.
That said, my uneducated guess is that they probably fell victim to wishful thinking and groupthink about the downside risk.
Don't get me wrong -- I would be throwing a fit if my team made a trade like this. It was a bad decision and many of us predicted that it would turn out badly. Just trying to be charitable and see it from the Browns' point of view.
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habsfan
Footballguy
I think this whole deal was a bit of a Chinese finger puzzle for the Browns too. It wasn't a nice clean, single "go / no go" decision. They got drawn into it, the Mayfield thing happened, other aspects probably started to shift too but at some point they decided to just push through to the other side.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I can't recall the timeline but I thought that Mayfield was fine until he found out the Browns were looking to acquire Watson.
habsfan
Footballguy
Definitely. I guess the "Mayfield risk" was present from the outset. If they didn't factor that in, they were unwise not to. Clumsy analogy but they sort of "left the wife", moved in with the girlfriend and now really had to make that work.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Matt Miller@nfldraftscout
Very good point.
Daniel Jeremiah@MoveTheSticks
The BUF/KC playoff game was a turning point moment in the NFL. The quality of QB play was off the charts and it had to hit home with every HC/GM/Owner. Is my QB good enough to compete with that???
------------------------------------------------------
The rest of the league, esp. the AFC got the memo. Can your QB compete with Josh Allen/Patrick Mahomes?
The Browns where aware Watson would face a lengthy suspension. They factored in a suspension on-top of the fact he hasn't played in over a year, meaning they knew that he'd be rusty.
Teams draft rookies, then take years developing them hoping for the proven upside of a Desuan Watson. No development but a lengthy suspension means the Browns can absorb this year because it was not about this year.
Watson was and still is the long-term solution at QB.
Mayfield was off the radar the second the deal was made.
Two grand juries did not press criminal charges. The civil suits went up from 22 to 24 alleging 'creepy behavior' so really nothing has changed other than any hope of him being able to play/work into playing shape this year.
I always factored in a suspension on-top of the rust factor. I know this time of the year, before training camp/preseason games, etc. Is the doldrum time for NFL writers who clamor for ANY story they can get cheap clicks.
This story is the only game in town, so the circus was expected but the short-term doesn't change that he's the Browns long-term solution at QB that gives them a chance to compete with Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes.
We'll see how this story plays out in a year.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Sure. Meanwhile most people ignored, or thought it’s too hard to duplicate, San Francisco’s success with Jimmy G. They clearly wanted the upgrade too.
Clearly Monday morning quarterbacking - but I wonder how much they’d have had to give up to get in position to draft the somewhat local kid, Stroud next year while giving Baker this year. Or one of the multiple other first round quality QBs next year.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
This is a good point. While Watson is a "sure thing" as far as on-the-field he did come at a steep price in terms of money and draft picks as well as the obvious risks associated with the off the field issues.
Drafting a potential franchise QB obviously comes with a lot of uncertainty as to whether or not the guy can transition to the NFL but at a much lower risk in terms of guaranteed money and draft picks.
Neither is necessarily right or wrong. If it works out you're a genius and if it doesn't you're a fool.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
How often do teams with strong supporting cast rosters, expecting to pick in the teens to twenties move all-the-way-up into the top/top-three picks to take a QB?
The last time was RG III. Instant question, how successful was that strategy?
Now ask, how many times has a young (26 same age as Baker Mayfield/Patrick Mahomes and a year younger than Josh Allen/Joe Burrow), in their prime QB been traded who has had anything 'close' to the stats of Deshuan Watson in the entire history of the NFL?
It has never happened.
The price wasn't steep. A mid-teen first round pick this year and two other 1st round picks in the same ball-park plus some throw-in picks that are less than the two-third round comp picks Cleveland got when Minnesota hired Kwesi and made him their GM?
The salary seems high as did the extension Browns GM Andrew Berry gave to Amari Cooper 'right before' other WRs demanded uber-high contract extensions. Both Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow have contract extensions due and their rosters (both divisional rivals to Cleveland) are not as strong as the Browns.
Should be pointed out that AB traded a 5th round pick for Coop which is a bargain.
We'll see how it plays out since Watson is at an age that we should see him competing for a long-time with other young top AFC QBs.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Considering the ongoing PR disaster of this signing; and also considering what they gave up, they probably shoulda stuck with Mayfield.
Yes, I understand what kind of on-field talent Watson is. It’s just such a sticky situation. Uh, no pun intended.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
PR, lol. How did murdering two people affect the rep of Ray Lewis and his SB MVP/HOF career? The RAPE allegation and sexual assault allegation against two-time SB winner Ben Roethlisberger? The massage parlor hand jobs of Patriots owner Robert Craft? He got his case thrown out but made sure the Asian females who provided him services got fined tens of thousands of dollars. Oh, he got a court order to get his sex-tape destroyed or I'd link it.
The shield take a PR hit they never got recovered from with the sexual exploits of Dallas owner Jerry Jones?
LINKS to photos, they are safe for work, safe-enough.
I'm sorry, you were saying DeShuan Watson is a PR nightmare. Yeah, devastating. The difference is he'll get a suspension, unlike the others, and he'll literally pay millions of dollars instead of poor females making $49 dollars for a half hour massage like Bob Craft.
As I said, we'll see how it plays out over the long run.
Apple Juice
Footballguy
Wow dude. What about this, what about that. Link me to a predator who stalked over 60 massage therapists and is acting like he didn't do anything wrong. We all know NFL players have done bad things. Has nothing to do with this.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
No matter how it plays out, the contract is still absurd, and that was the other half of my statement that you seem to have ignored. They gave up 3x 1sts as well.
So even if it’s not a PR nightmare (which, IMO, it is) the contract and picks were an overpay.
Breaking out Roethlisburger, Ray Lewis & Jerry Jones are irrelevant to this specific topic and Watson, so I’m really not sure what your point there is. Might as well throw in Rae Carruth & Ray Rice. They’re as relevant to Watson’s situation as Ray Lewis.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Unless he wins two SBs like Ray and Ben.
Why? Recency bias? Murder and rape worse than creepy behavior UNLESS its from a billionaire NFL owner and they get away with it because, you say so?
If no cases can be linked then you should tell that to Tony Buzbee because that is the basis of his case.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
hard to do if he gets suspended for much of 2022.
It’s also very hard for even great QBs to win 1, much less 2 Super Bowls. You talk like it’s a given.
So many things have to break right and for an extended period to win 1, or 2 Super Bowls. That’s why guys like Dilfer, McMahon, Brad Johnson, & Jeff Hostletter all have rings, while Dan Marino doesn’t.
No guaranteed Watson even gets them to a Super Bowl.
None of those things. Just false equivalence/whataboutism. Completely irrelevant to the specific PR problem / circumstances of Watson, and also in a different era from a media/public perception standpoint.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
The world we live in now is different than the world we lived in then. #metoo happened. I love playing the "Ray Lewis killed a man card" as well in these types of arguments because I find the whole situation surrounding him to be absurd. As for the billionaires - yeah they can pretty much do whatever they want, whenever they want; haven't you been paying attention?
In a vacuum the Browns traded an excess of assets for a man who molested multiple women and then paid him a contract that basically guarantees that he will control the destiny of their franchise for the foreseeable future. It's a terrible decision, even if it ends up being the right one. Black jack analogy, the Browns hit on 20 with what they did to get Watson (and the dealer was showing a 2). If they get win two sbs it's amazing but that still doesn't mean they made the right choice.
yeah-june 2022 and there are ppl who legitimately believe that all these women are/were RMTs?
and that doesn't even matter in the end... but really? the guy was trying to fly women in to have sex. what's so hard to understand about that part of the story? he has money. doesnt have to go anywhere in public to make it happen. the team and spa provided the logistics, his role was to seal the deal.
weird, creepy, whatever... yes. but we're 2yrs in and ppl are STILL asking "why did he have to fly in massage therapists?"
we know the answer. everyone does.
how many massage therapists fly anywhere to perform, and don't ask questions
yet these unlicensed therapists who flew in as the ordinary course of their unlicensed massages to mega celebrities, were shocked that Watson used a small towel and now they have been reminded they felt uncomfortable at the time and are entitled to damages
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Children love ice cream and puppies too, but that’s also irrelevant to the topic of DeSean Watson & the ongoing civil suits/PR issue for the Browns.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am not trying to condone the behavior of either but for the record Lewis was not charged with murder and Roethlisberger was not charged with rape so I don't think you should be using those terms. Watson has not been charged either. That doesn't mean that what any of them did was ok.
That being said one difference between Lewis/Roethlisberger is they were already under contract for their teams so they were somewhat caught by surprise.
In the case of Watson, the Browns sought and traded for a bad actor knowing full well what he had done. Maybe it doesn't make a difference, I'm just pointing it out.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
And the victim blame train comes in. I'm going to guess you're not into anything the kids are these days, so let me explain how the kids operate.
They're mostly teenage "influencers". The whole brand is "look at me have a fabulous life and do fabulous things" and products pay them to advertise. They live in a fantasy world where they believe that they are going to be jetting about with celebrities and the sex starved internet loves them and feeds into this. They've been doing this since they were children because as I've said before, guys are creeps.
It's absolutely not a stretch to think a bunch of 18-19 year old girls raised to think superstars care about the "massage business" they're making pocket money advertising for are flying them all over the world to experience their magic healing touch. These are dumb kids.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I agree 100%. I also find it hard to believe 24 different women who advertise massages on Instagram all thought that a professional athlete who has access to the best trainers in the world figured that him flying them half way across the country to a hotel room was just for a massage because they all must be the best massage therapist in the country.
- Watson is an idiot and has some real issues when he easily could have just hired a discreet escort service. It is obviously some sort of power trip that gets him off.
- All but a handful of these women likely knew exactly or fairly close to what they were being summoned for and not until a lawyer looking to capitalize on an even bigger pay day got involved did they complain. This is likely why 18 of them were willing to settle last year for a reported 100k each.
What should happen since the criminal charges have been dropped if you truly want justice is the cases get dismissed, the NFL voids Watson's contract and suspends him two or three years which cost him way more then settling the cases. While they are at it hit the browns with a cap penalty of 25% of his salary for the 2 or 3 years he is suspended for ever doing the contract in the first place.
It's not going to happen that way and it would be a shame for those handful that truly are victims but since the criminal cases have been dismissed they aren't going to get true justice anyway.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Another quality post from the 525 post guy in this topic.
No, he wasn't. He came in covered in blood, burnt his clothing and destroyed all physical evidence that he took part in the double murder as his two buddies paid the price of the crime while he literally got away with murder, didn't get suspended a single game, never fined, no criminal charges. Two kids dead. Families devasted but they got to see Ray-Ray every Sunday and can visit his statue.
Nope, he was accused of rape by a Vegas call girl who no-one believed as credible. He never stood trial, faced a grand jury, and if he paid her off we never heard about it so we wouldn't know if an NDA existed so he never faced public scrutiny.
The other incident, he was accused of taking his penis out and forced a coed at it in a bathroom stall while the cops he was partying with and who he had given a generous cash grant to their canine unit so they could protect him sat and did nothing.
The girl who made the accusation against the star Pittsburgh Steeler QB had multiple death threats and had to drop out of school. That showed her how tough Steeler fans are huh?
Desuan Watson has not been charged with anything criminal, he was accused with two grand juries deciding not to prosecute. He faces a lengthy suspension, the women he is accused of being creepy to stand to win much more money in one court case than decades of $49 half hour massage sessions. He has been sat one year paid and will get suspended and pay out millions of dollars and face public scrutiny. If he wins, people will say its tainted.
Would you just look at that Ray Lewis statue? How'd that Big Ben HOF ceremony go? I found it difficult to see and hear do to all of that public scrutiny. Those PR hits were devastating.
-OZ-
Footballguy
sure, trading for and drafting any rookie, especially QB, is a risk.
don’t forget, the chiefs had to trade up s a bit for mahomes. “K.C. traded the No. 27 overall pick, a third-round pick and their 2018 first-round selection to the Buffalo Bills to move up to No. 10 to select Mahomes.” That seems to have worked well. No need to artificially limit your group to only top 3 picks here.
Others may disagree but I think that’s a significant difference. Although we don’t full well know what he did, only what’s been alleged. It’s a mistake to actively pursue, and give a large guaranteed contract, to a player in these circumstances until it’s sorted out. The browns chose not to wait when (as already discussed) they didn’t need to do so.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Much like your false equivalence fallacy, ad hominum personal attacks are a weak debate tactic.
in effect, when you attack the person instead of their argument, you’ve lost,
have a nice day.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
New England was smart enough to wait till the sixth round to take the greatest QB in the history of the NFL so that has happened but the odds aren't great. NE and KC got lucky. Bills got lucky.
As I said, in the history of the NFL a young QB who has produced as Watson did had never been traded. The reason he got traded is he is tainted.
We'll see how it plays out.
Spoken from the Jet fan who openly admitted he was out to get Browns fans in this top, lol. You got us Doc. Devastating quip.
The Texans originally traded up for Watson as well in the same draft. They traded the 25 and a future 1st to go to 12 (from Cleveland!) after KC sniped them on Mahomes.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
If you find one quote of mine where I said I was "out the get Browns fans in this thread" I will donate $100 to you favorite charity. Actually you can make it $1,000 because it didn't happen. I did say I will root against the team this season because I found what they did gross. I've also said I understand why fans would still root for the team - and brought up that I faced a similar situation when Mike Vick joined the Jets. So your claim is odd (as usual).
There's a reason I've ignored you ever since you defended Garrett when he physically assaulted Rudolph with a helmet and laughably argued about Rudolph calling him the N word on a football field full of African Americans (none of which backed up that claim). It's ok to support your team - it's not ok to support bad acts by someone on the team.
This is the first time I've responded to you in over two years - despite you quoting me multiple times - and this will be the last.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Really funny, the MN game when Adams went low and took out Njoku's knee landing him on IR for the year all we heard was Jet fans crying that the dirty Myles Garrett hit the Jet QB who fell backwards breaking his own ankle. Myles hit him high, he broke his own ankle. So you can step waaaaaaaaaaaaay down from your high horse.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Right. Fwiw, I remember thinking Watson was going to be a top 3 pick. Then he had some concerns about his arm strength.
The real point though, is with what appears to be 5 first round quality QBs next year, Cleveland would have been in good shape to get one and to trade up for one they want. (Perhaps not #1). That’s assuming Baker didn’t perform in 2022.
"With Watson no longer employed by the Texans, the team will have no real reason to collaborate with him in order to present a united front against the charges."
https://twitter.com/riversmccown/status/1534945947507212289
"The league is investigating these new claims & talking to Deshaun Watson about it as well" ~
@RapSheet
https://twitter.com/patmcafeeshow/status/1534958052633325568?s=21
https://twitter.com/riversmccown/status/1534945947507212289
"The league is investigating these new claims & talking to Deshaun Watson about it as well" ~
@RapSheet
https://twitter.com/patmcafeeshow/status/1534958052633325568?s=21
GregR
Footballguy
Of the 26 women who have made criminal or civil complaints, I only recall hearing of one that was flown in from Atlanta (his hometown).Obie Wan said:
You seem to be implying flying them in was a frequent thing as opposed to an outlier. I'm under the impression all the women but one were local to Houston. Do you have a link to him flying in multiple women instead of just the one?
daveR
Footballguy
I seem to recall the same thing, Greg, though I admit I haven't read all the material. I also think I remember reading about advance texts asking if the therapist was comfortable doing certain things and laying out the towel aspect, detailed in one of the lawsuits. This would indicate premeditation. It would also indicate transparency. On a tangent, I once heard it said that you should never ask if a woman is a hooker because she might be undercover. Instead, you should ask her to go back to your room for naked pictures because it's not illegal and no cop is gonna say yes.
-OZ-
Footballguy
any chance you have a link to this? There are a few things that would change some opinions (including my own). Complete transparency would do a lot here.
I'm sure this has been updated somewhere but here is a link to the first batch of accusations below.
I can't keep track of locations of everyone since but at this time he had flown in one therapist from Georgia for a session in the Houstonian and visited therapist in GA, AZ and CA.
He did indicate to at least one therapist that what he wanted made some women uncomfortable and that it was really hard to find one who could meet his needs.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31113664/summary-lawsuits-houston-texans-quarterback-deshaun-watson
Marauder
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
If this is true (and too busy to read the article now, so prob shouldnt even comment)... But if your part is true, this is pretty significant. Bar telling the masseuse he's gonna try to go to pound town, the mere suggestion of what he said should have been more than enough to cause hesitation, knowing pretty full well the end intention.
and if not true... carry on
[Cabot] The #Browns are still all in on Deshaun Watson and not looking to void the record $230M contract or trade with the #Texans, league sources tell clevelanddotcom
https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/1535291655359709186?s=20&t=3fKeMLQhT5s8lpnd1uVxCw
https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/1535291655359709186?s=20&t=3fKeMLQhT5s8lpnd1uVxCw
Soulfly3
Footballguy
DJackson10
Footballguy
I'm not trying to insult you for your team here but the Browns aren't surprising. But this is a move I could see Raiders or Cowboys making with Dashaun had they not had established guys already given the history of how those teams are run with signing questionable character guys. Browns do stupid things but considering their GM is Andrew Berry who came from the Eagles this is very out of character of Berry from people I know within the Eagles org and others who know him. Some are saying someone hire up must've forced the move.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Your whataboutisms here are a little disturbing. Maybe sit this one out for a change and clear your head a little. Maybe come back to this later with a clearer mindset.
I think Jerry is scum of the Earth your stereotypical Conservative Texas oil Owner creep type but this has nothing to do with now
Given everything with Big Ben we can just say he has some questionable behavior but at the end of the day nothing was proven of wrong doing. The girl who made the accusations even her friends didn't defend her and said she's known for lying which says a lot there. Then you have the fact it was a questionable place for ben to be there
Ray Lewis happened years ago. Should I bring Up Allen Iverson someone in the NBA beats their wife and how AI got away without being suspended? It's years ago now
Robert Kraft happened awhile ago. He got off because he has money. You won't see many here or in the real world other then NE fans defending him.
Either way these have nothing to do with now. You might think you are throwing shade on the NFL here but all your post is doing here is look like you are trying to take accountability from Watson and not be held accountable because some others weren't. We live in a different world these days. All the guys who beat their wives back in the day if that was caught on tape today would be doomed. I say this about Allen Iverson all the time because I know people who dealt with him on a daily bases. I think a lot of Philly fans would stop throwing the guy on a pedestal if we had the technology we have today and people saw his behavior on video minutes or hrs of it happened. People react differently when they see something.
Back in the day Assault and domestic violence was brushed under a rug. Today society is making sure those who are involved in those things are being held accountable for. Like I said your whataboutisms aren't helping here. It's no different then the person defending rioters on Jan 6 with the "blm protest" line.
DJackson10
Footballguy
By no means am I a lawyer so I'm more so asking but considering the new details of the Texans involvement couldn't a new criminal case involving the Texans be granted here for possible enabling and embedding?
