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QB Mac Jones, SF (1 Viewer)
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Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
The quick hook lol.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
And you can’t blame the ankle. All he was doing well was running.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Nope. He's not getting his job back without injury to Zappe now. Love Zappe's attitude and demeanor. Comes in and just slings it after Jones looked atrocious in his reads. I feel bad for Jones, but as they say, what have you done for me lately?
The General
Footballguy
Buh Bye
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
What a mess now lol. BB out thought himself. Now there's two QBs with no confidence.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
FWIW, Jason La Confora was on a podcast and mentioned he asked around to see what the rest of the league thought about the Pats QB situation. At least one GM felt that Jones would be available for trade by the NFL combine. That didn't mean that Zappe would be tabbed as the guy. but apparently there have been whispers that Jones probably isn't the guy (at least in the eyes of others). If true, NE might look for an alternative for next year.
LINK
LINK
It wouldn't be easy to find an upgrade over Mac. Geno Smith or Tannehill, maybe. The draft, unlikely. It's too early to give up on Mac.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Bears game illustrated the weaknesses of both Jones and Zappe. Jones frequently is indecisive and will start to throw but often brings the ball down and hesitates instead. He'll survey his other receivers but takes too long and then panics. Many times, he misses receivers that are wide open that got behind the defense, were running free underneath, or were left open on the sidelines. But that's usually because he didn't look at them initially or didn't recognize the coverage. He needs to have a better pulse on what the defense is doing, make up his mind, and let it rip. Some of that is they are giving him more downfield routes to work with than last season, and he hears footsteps that aren't always there. Some of that could be attributed to a lack of confidence in the offense, or general self-doubt about what he should do with the football. His pocket presence and awareness isn't always what it needs to be, so he will take sacks that could have been avoided . . . or worse wriggle free and force some terrible passes that should never have been thrown. Add in the injury and Zappe fever, and Jones looks a bit overwhelmed.
They have given Zappe a completely different set of schemes, formations, and plays to work with, so they basically are running two different offenses. Zappe has done a better job finding players that have gotten open, and he has also done well stepping up in the pocket to buy some extra time. However, when guys are covered, he hasn't been great at throwing into tight windows. The knock on Zappe has been his size / height. Against the Bears, he had multiple passes batted down or deflected at the LOS. To me, it seemed like Zappe also has a low release point, so he needs to either drop back further or move out of the pocket more to avoid getting his passes batted at the LOS.
As far as Jones goes, there definitely is some friction between Mac and the team / coaching staff. Maybe that's a blip on the radar, maybe it's a major impasse, or probably it's somewhere in between. Unfortunately for NE, the games the offense has had issues have coincided with the defense having issues. And the games the offense clicked the defense played very well. It's easy to win when the defense only allows one TD, forces turnovers, and the offense chips in 3 TD. But it's impossible to win when the offense coughs up the ball 4 times and the defense is allowing 30+ points.
That leaves the Pats as a Jeckyl and Hyde team that could look great one week and dreadful the next. Talent wise, I think they have more talented players than last year . . . but they have had way too many turnovers and penalties that they can't overcome. Brady was the great equalizer, and he did a good job minimizing the fatal errors and could rally the team on off games. This NE is not good enough to survive those types of outcomes, and their margin for error is very thin.
They have given Zappe a completely different set of schemes, formations, and plays to work with, so they basically are running two different offenses. Zappe has done a better job finding players that have gotten open, and he has also done well stepping up in the pocket to buy some extra time. However, when guys are covered, he hasn't been great at throwing into tight windows. The knock on Zappe has been his size / height. Against the Bears, he had multiple passes batted down or deflected at the LOS. To me, it seemed like Zappe also has a low release point, so he needs to either drop back further or move out of the pocket more to avoid getting his passes batted at the LOS.
As far as Jones goes, there definitely is some friction between Mac and the team / coaching staff. Maybe that's a blip on the radar, maybe it's a major impasse, or probably it's somewhere in between. Unfortunately for NE, the games the offense has had issues have coincided with the defense having issues. And the games the offense clicked the defense played very well. It's easy to win when the defense only allows one TD, forces turnovers, and the offense chips in 3 TD. But it's impossible to win when the offense coughs up the ball 4 times and the defense is allowing 30+ points.
That leaves the Pats as a Jeckyl and Hyde team that could look great one week and dreadful the next. Talent wise, I think they have more talented players than last year . . . but they have had way too many turnovers and penalties that they can't overcome. Brady was the great equalizer, and he did a good job minimizing the fatal errors and could rally the team on off games. This NE is not good enough to survive those types of outcomes, and their margin for error is very thin.
LawFitz
Footballguy
I still think Zappe is the better QB. He needs to watch tape of Brees and learn how to find passing lanes/windows between his OL, and/or stand on his tip toes to see over the line. His height is definitely a decent/major hinderance at this stage of his NFL development. That said, his pocket presence and field vision appear notably superior to Big Mac (and most NFL QBs). Even in the Bears game, he made a bunch a good throws into tight spaces - the whole performance melted down however, due to multiple batted balls - one of which was INT'd - plus one really bad throw/decision, which resulted in the pick 6. Doesn't matter how many good plays you make as a QB, if you make a few critically bad ones, which he did in this game. But I put on his reel expecting to see a major meltdown and I did not. I saw 90% good throws/plays and a few really really bad ones.
I do not feel anywhere near the same about Mac. Since last season, I see a system QB - a robot. And this year, the system and the controllers behind the robot have failed. Mac has NFL size and physical tools, but he is missing that all-critical 'it' factor. Zappe has shown glimpses of having 'it.' Belichick knows this IMO - he felt it last year and it sunk in this offseason. He's going to push both QBs to the brink of madness by pitting them against one another this season. He's hoping at least one of them swims, even if it one drowns the other. And if they both drown, they both drown. Billibadger don't give a ****.
I do not feel anywhere near the same about Mac. Since last season, I see a system QB - a robot. And this year, the system and the controllers behind the robot have failed. Mac has NFL size and physical tools, but he is missing that all-critical 'it' factor. Zappe has shown glimpses of having 'it.' Belichick knows this IMO - he felt it last year and it sunk in this offseason. He's going to push both QBs to the brink of madness by pitting them against one another this season. He's hoping at least one of them swims, even if it one drowns the other. And if they both drown, they both drown. Billibadger don't give a ****.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
With Zappe, NE has tried to streamline the offense to the point where they have 6 lineman and a TE in to block, 2 receiver routes, and Stevenson chipping and being a safety valve out of the backfield. Basically, max protect. Or they ran a ton of play action. But they have done neither with Mac. Blend in that they really don't have a legit OC, and it's no wonder the offense at times has looked lost. The question becomes why can't they do the same thing with Mac? Instead, they have taken blockers away in favor of more receivers running deeper routes, and on times when he doesn't see anyone open, he will run for his life (which Zappe generally hasn't had to do).
I think teams will study tape on Zappe and if he continues to play, teams will figure him out pretty quickly. It's pretty easy to look good against poor defenses with multiple injuries in the secondary. No matter who the QB is, if they can't run the ball, they are DOA that game. They aren't at the point where they can air things out all game. The way things have gone the last 12 games or so, the defense has been great and makes the offense look great or the defense has been invisible, and the offense has looked terrible. They really only have been competitive when playing with the lead and the defense has been very strong. But the D has had way too many games where they can't get a stop (Bills, Ravens, Bears, etc.).
LawFitz
Footballguy
Zappe with some really great throws/decisions last game + two really bad ones, one of which was picked + way way too many batted balls...
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He needs deep drops to see/pass over the OL - and/or needs designed passing lanes on each play, to solve the batted balls. He sees the underneath routes very very well, and has great timing, touch and accuracy on those throws. Rich Gannon made a career out of using the underneath to open up the top and I think Zappe could do the same. His passing feel/ability <10 yards is top notch. From 10-20 yards, he's decent too. Lots of good examples of accurate and timely intermediate throws in his game tape this season, including even a few in the Chi melt down. 20 yards+ it gets dicey with this dude (at this stage of his arm/physical maturation), but given proper offensive design (i.e. Gangnum Gannon style), the top part of the field can be reserved for higher % wider-open plays/runners. Pound the underneath and wide areas with good running, including run plays that are disguised as short passes + accurate short/intermediate passing, and watch guys like Thornton and Parker get wide open deep later.
Mac OTOH, looks like a traditional NFL QB, with his size and throws. And is mostly functional at executing the plays that are drawn. But forget about creativity or feel. And get him off schedule and things repeatedly turn fugly for him this year. The pick he threw off his back foot into double coverage v. Chi was beyond an awful decision. I am not surprised to see him benched for that one play alone - it was THAT bad.
youtu.be
Bailey Zappe All Plays WEEK 7 vs Chicago
Bailey Zappe Stats: 14-22 185 Yards 1 TD 2 INT'sBailey Zappe FULL HIGHLIGHTS Week 7 vs The Chicago Bears
youtu.be
He needs deep drops to see/pass over the OL - and/or needs designed passing lanes on each play, to solve the batted balls. He sees the underneath routes very very well, and has great timing, touch and accuracy on those throws. Rich Gannon made a career out of using the underneath to open up the top and I think Zappe could do the same. His passing feel/ability <10 yards is top notch. From 10-20 yards, he's decent too. Lots of good examples of accurate and timely intermediate throws in his game tape this season, including even a few in the Chi melt down. 20 yards+ it gets dicey with this dude (at this stage of his arm/physical maturation), but given proper offensive design (i.e. Gangnum Gannon style), the top part of the field can be reserved for higher % wider-open plays/runners. Pound the underneath and wide areas with good running, including run plays that are disguised as short passes + accurate short/intermediate passing, and watch guys like Thornton and Parker get wide open deep later.
Mac OTOH, looks like a traditional NFL QB, with his size and throws. And is mostly functional at executing the plays that are drawn. But forget about creativity or feel. And get him off schedule and things repeatedly turn fugly for him this year. The pick he threw off his back foot into double coverage v. Chi was beyond an awful decision. I am not surprised to see him benched for that one play alone - it was THAT bad.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
The back foot, horrible throw that got picked and got Jones pulled from the game probably shouldn't have counted. There's video that seems to show that the pass hit the overhead camera wire (the ball seems to deflect and take a different trajectory), which would have negated the play and have the down repeated. Doesn't change that it was a terrible decision, horrible pass, and a wounded duck. But it might have altered how that game went (and kept Zappe off the field for a while). Maybe. Or maybe not.Mac OTOH, looks like a traditional NFL QB, with his size and throws. And is mostly functional at executing the plays that are drawn. But forget about creativity or feel. And get him off schedule and things repeatedly turn fugly for him this year. The pick he threw off his back foot into double coverage v. Chi was beyond an awful decision. I am not surprised to see him benched for that one play alone - it was THAT bad.
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LawFitz
Footballguy
@Anarchy99 , love chatting with you about all things Patriots and NFL. Appreciate your insight, views and patient consideration for those who might get ahead of themselves at times in their own views of and about your team. You exemplify the best of FBG and the Sharkpool. Tip of the cap.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
The problem for Jones is people are quick to jump all over him for bad outcomes and results, ignoring what should have happened on a given play. Take the Jets game. On the pick six that got wiped out, given the defensive coverage NY was in, Jones read it correctly and Meyers was supposed to run to the sticks and then square out to the sideline. But he ran to the sticks and stopped, leaving Jones hung out to dry. Jones threw the ball right where Meyers was supposed to be, and the DB was left alone for a gift pick six. On fourth and short, NE ran a designed rollout and Meyers was supposed to run a go route to draw coverage with him (leaving Jones to jog for a first down). But he stopped just past the marker, leaving defenders at the LOS, and then tried to release when it was too late. But Jones had to take on the defender that was covering Meyers and led Meyers to where he should have been in the first place. Both of those weren't Jones' fault . . . but Zappemania!
I will say that there are often times when the offense with Jones looks flat out clunky and out of sync. That's not exactly what you want out of your offense halfway into the season.
I will say that there are often times when the offense with Jones looks flat out clunky and out of sync. That's not exactly what you want out of your offense halfway into the season.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Is Meyers related to Randy Moss?
The Frankman
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Sharp Football Analysis@SharpFBAnalysis
The Patriots have not converted a red zone possession into a touchdown since Week 9 (0-for-6 over that span) Since Week 7, the Patriots are 31st in the league in touchdown rate per drive (10.1%), ahead of only the Broncos (10%)
Full Preview https://sharpfootballanalysis.com/fantasy/patriots-cardinals-week-14-fantasy-football-worksheet-rich-hribar-2022/
The Patriots have not converted a red zone possession into a touchdown since Week 9 (0-for-6 over that span) Since Week 7, the Patriots are 31st in the league in touchdown rate per drive (10.1%), ahead of only the Broncos (10%)
Full Preview https://sharpfootballanalysis.com/fantasy/patriots-cardinals-week-14-fantasy-football-worksheet-rich-hribar-2022/
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Speaking of Jones, I have heard a broad range of rumors and speculation . . . whispers in the hall so to speak . . . about the fractured relationship and bad dynamic between Jones / Patricia / Judge / BB. That has included wild speculation / hot takes that NE has already made up its mind that Jones is not the guy, and he won't be extended. I have heard of a version that Jones is so frustrated and angered by the complete lack of direction, organization, and logic that some feel that Jones wants out and behind closed doors has asked for a trade. Another is Jones and Patricia can't coexist and one or the other won't be back next season. Most of this would fall under the category of people throwing things out there, but some of the people involved have more of an informed opinion than other people that have a tendency to just shoot their mouths off.
I did hear a more reasonable potential outcome on the radio this morning, a hypothetical that had Jarod Mayo leaving next year to be a head coach or DC somewhere, with Patricia going back to coaching on the defensive side of the ball in NE, and bringing in an actual OC. There has been wild speculation on who any potential candidates as an OC in NE would be if it's not Bill O'Brien, ranging from retread OC's at the NFL level, promoting an internal candidate, to guys coming out of the college ranks. That's what they SHOULD do, but we all know NE does whatever BB deems best. The consensus of media folks think even BB is well aware the Patricia experiment was an unmitigated disaster, and there will be a shake up in the coaching staff in the offseason.
I still am hearing talk that BB is coaching for his job, which I think is unlikely (but gets clicks or viewers for those suggesting it). Since Brady left, NE ranks 17th in the league in terms of regular season record, but there are a number of teams bunched together. With one more win, they would have ranked 13th, and with 2 more wins they would have ranked 10th. With the media and fan base so used to going to the SB every other year, being in the "average" to "above average" category is considered high treason, but the way people around here are talking, you'd think the Pats had a 2-11 record.
I did hear a more reasonable potential outcome on the radio this morning, a hypothetical that had Jarod Mayo leaving next year to be a head coach or DC somewhere, with Patricia going back to coaching on the defensive side of the ball in NE, and bringing in an actual OC. There has been wild speculation on who any potential candidates as an OC in NE would be if it's not Bill O'Brien, ranging from retread OC's at the NFL level, promoting an internal candidate, to guys coming out of the college ranks. That's what they SHOULD do, but we all know NE does whatever BB deems best. The consensus of media folks think even BB is well aware the Patricia experiment was an unmitigated disaster, and there will be a shake up in the coaching staff in the offseason.
I still am hearing talk that BB is coaching for his job, which I think is unlikely (but gets clicks or viewers for those suggesting it). Since Brady left, NE ranks 17th in the league in terms of regular season record, but there are a number of teams bunched together. With one more win, they would have ranked 13th, and with 2 more wins they would have ranked 10th. With the media and fan base so used to going to the SB every other year, being in the "average" to "above average" category is considered high treason, but the way people around here are talking, you'd think the Pats had a 2-11 record.
Boston
Footballguy
*I don't fully agree with you on expectations...sure there are the pink hats and media members who only understand championships and cannot grasp anything else or pretend not to so they can take shots at BB (those people are painful)...there are also the 'in Bill we trust" crew who make constant excuses for him and still think it is 2004...I think the people with the best grasp are those who fully understood there would be a sizable step backwards after TB12 but also are not onboard with the direction they are headed in both with personnel and coaching...this is an average team that BB the Coach may be able exceed expectations with and make a playoff contender, but the reality is they are still very far from being a championship contender and for many reasons that doesn't seem like it is going to change any time soon.
*Mayo has been rumored to be in line for a HC job for a few years so that would not be a surprise...what would surprise me is making Patricia the DC over his son who has been a de facto DC for a few years with Mayo...Patricia getting that job would be seen as a demotion for Stevie...since Patricia is not going anywhere, hopefully they kick him back to the front office and let him pretend to be the next Ernie Adams.
*My fear is Adam Gase is the next OC...his name has been floating around for a while and it appears he would be a BB yes man
*I don't think it is as cut and dry as BB is coaching for his job...I would be shocked if he was fired...I do think he is coaching for how to run the team 100% the way he wants...assuming this season ends with a near playoff miss or getting blown out in the first round of the playoffs again I just don't see Kraft not demanding changes to how BB does business...the path they are on will not yield the dividends he is looking for...what happens when that conversation goes down will determine the future.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Bedard was the one that straight out said BB was coaching for his job based on the result of LAST NIGHT'S GAME. Others have connected the dots of Kraft setting expectations of a playoff win this season as the lowest acceptable outcome for this season and the litmus test for Bill coming back or not. I harp back on several interview segments I have seen with Kraft where he was very complimentary of Bill and basically said he was the GOAT and could coach here as long as he wanted, and the team would be lucky to have him for as long as he was willing to keep coaching. Those clips were from this year . . . after Brady left, after the Cam fiasco, after the mediocre drafting, after the statements about winning a playoff game, after the slow start, etc. I don't see Robert Kraft as an actor pretending to be a Bill fan boy, and he genuinely seemed like they are thrilled they still have BB as a coach.
I agree the team needs a lot of changes. They need to rebuild the OL first and foremost, most notably both tackle spots. The guys they have are oft injured and slow, but more importantly, they play like they don't want to be here. Having an identity on offense is also on the list, but that could be rectified with a professional play caller. And they still need a WR1 (but we've been saying that since Moss left). They are going to need safeties soon on defense, but the long-standing gripe about getting a pass rush has been set aside for now (Judon and Uche are both great at getting pressure). They could stand to use an every down interior LB as well.
I don't know how realistic it would be (or how long it would take) to make those changes, and what that would do to the team's record and playoff chances. However, at this point, I don't see BB giving up much control of anything, nor do I see Kraft putting his foot down and taking key tasks away from Bill. I do think the Kraft's can get Bill to do things differently, but not to the point I think you are referencing. For example, I think the Kraft's can work with Bill to put an end to the Patricia running the offense shenanigans and get Bill to bring in someone else. But I don't think the Kraft's would have a lot of say in terms of who the someone else would be. Similarly, I think they could get BB to add a Director of Player Personnel to work on scouting and draft prep, but BB would ultimately insist on making the actual picks. I don't see any way that BB would become just the head coach with someone else as GM. Bill would walk, and I don't believe the Kraft's want Bill to walk.
If that means the team treads water for a while as an average team and fringe playoff squad, so be it. At this point, ending up out of the playoffs to me is on par with making the playoffs and get waxed in their only playoff game. I would expect they will move forward with the guys they think have promise and move on from guys that seem like they are disinterested or were liabilities. Bottom line, there are only a handful of teams that are true SB contenders each season, and that handful generally changes from year to year. The Rams won last year and the Buccaneers the season before. Both of those teams look like they are miles away from winning again. The Saints and Packers were contenders for years, and both of them look uncompetitive many weeks. If the barometer is whether a team is a legit SB contender or not, 80-85% of the league would be in the market for a new head coach every year.
Boston
Footballguy
I actually don't disagree with you about the changes...no way does BB actually work for someone...zero chance of that happening and I don't think Kraft would even think about asking for that...but he does need to bring in some new front office people, a real OC and another Coach or two that are not simply yes men who went to John Carroll...I just don't see the status quo being acceptable and it shouldn't be...the franchise needs some new blood...BB still has gas left in the tank but right now he is his own worst enemy.
BB is not going to retire on his own until he breaks the all time coaching win total.
That is what he is coaching for now. Whether Kraft is unhappy with how the team is being run is anyone's speculation
Kraft firing BB is a long shot. Mac has taken a big step backward this season with Patricia and Judge running the offense.
He has not progressed as he should have after a very good rookie season.
What BB did having them in charge of the offense is an utter joke!
That is what he is coaching for now. Whether Kraft is unhappy with how the team is being run is anyone's speculation
Kraft firing BB is a long shot. Mac has taken a big step backward this season with Patricia and Judge running the offense.
He has not progressed as he should have after a very good rookie season.
What BB did having them in charge of the offense is an utter joke!
TampaMike19
Footballguy
One of the worst stat lines I’ve ever seen
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
In IDP leagues he almost added a tackle.
