Don't think the Pats view a big gap between Zappe and Jones, and if Jones isn't getting along with BB and maybe others well then...
Not saying will happen or that it's even likely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
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QB Mac Jones, SF (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
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Not saying will happen or that it's even likely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
But they wouldn’t need to trade Jones to start Zappe. In fact it would be pretty dumb since Zappe is also unproven and was very uneven last season - if he fails then what?
The Pats are not a team that’s going to tank - and even if their QBs were bad, their defense would likely keep them out of the range for Williams.
If relationship w/ Jones is broken then it's broken, again don't know that it is just saying it's possible. In that case go with Zappe and sign a vet. Truth be told they're a middle of the road team this year either way.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
One of the working theories out there is that the information coming out now is a bit dated (if it is more factual than fictional). Connecting the dots, some folks think Bill had plotted a solution to upgrade at the QB spot to a so far unknown QB. Take your pick . . . Jackson, Rodgers, Carr, Garoppolo, other. With the framework of that outcome seemingly in place, then he moved on to trying to move Jones. Again, all this is speculation, but some people think he then went to the Krafts and said this is what I put together in terms of the new QB and what he had lined up in return for Jones and ownership said no. But most media folks think there is no way BB just started trying to dump Jones with no one else lined up as a better option. At this point, I can't imagine Jones has a ton of trade value, and I doubt there will be one of the Top 4 QBs available at Pick 14. I doubt they have enough to move up and snag one of them (at least I doubt they would come up with a package to get there). Put another way, they wouldn't move on from Jones with Zappe as the answer, There would have to be more to it than that.
Boston
Footballguy
As a Pats fan...100% yes...if you are the Ravens...not even close.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Mac Jones likely has zero value to the Ravens.
I wouldn’t be shocked if somehow the Pats do move in on Jackson but that offer isn’t getting it done.
Boston
Footballguy
Hoyer (who is not good) is no longer there either so if you deal Mac that leaves them with just Zappe on the roster...at this point who else can you bring in not named Lamar that is even viable...I am intrigued by Zappe and would like to see an open QB competition between he and Mac but there is no way BB is handing Zappe the job with no competition with his job on the line.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...I could see Mac being part of a deal as it would give the Ravens a short-term QB but there would have to be a lot more added on to that deal to get it done.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Add in the 1.14 and they might not straight hang up on you.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Another speculative theory is that Mac was infuriated enough with NE that he demanded a trade. This is another case of the devil is in the details and what the timeline was. That would make sense if that happened closer to the end of the season and the start of the offseason. Maybe NE tried to shop him to accommodate his trade request . . . but before they brought in Bill O'Brien. If that was the timeline, then they could make a plan to trade / sign / draft his replacement (they would have had time to map that all out). Jones butted heads with the coaching staff, the play calling, the direction of the offense, and (in his opinion) a desire to potentially move on to Zappe. NE certainly didn't do him any favors in having limited receiving talent to work with, a leaky O-line, and two bumbling idiots running the offense. BB isn't one to stick up for his players . . . he's more into preaching that people need to overcome obstacles rather than making excuses (at least for other people, not himself).
Despite NE talking a good game, they really haven't done much to improve the offense. At best they stayed roughly the same. JJSS replacing Meyers is at best a push. Gesicki taking over for Smith is an upgrade, but Robinson taking over for Harris is most likely a step back. And they added some bodies to the OL . . . but no one that would be considered an upgrade. All their efforts to bring in WR help hasn't materialized. At this point, unless they snag someone in Round 1 or 2 of the draft, that ship seems to have sailed. There clearly has been tension between Mac and the coaching staff . . . what that means for him sticking with the team longer term remains to be seen.
It's also possible BB has already determined that Mac isn't the guy to lead them to the promised land, and rather than waste more time has decided they need a better option. There has been talk that Bill didn't love Jones and was told he had to draft him, which would set up a power struggle between him and the Krafts. That one may be more of a media-driven narrative to try to make things rockier than they really are. Like I mentioned, there are media folks actively trying to get BB bounced as head coach, so I am a little skeptical with some of the hot takes that get laid out there.
Despite NE talking a good game, they really haven't done much to improve the offense. At best they stayed roughly the same. JJSS replacing Meyers is at best a push. Gesicki taking over for Smith is an upgrade, but Robinson taking over for Harris is most likely a step back. And they added some bodies to the OL . . . but no one that would be considered an upgrade. All their efforts to bring in WR help hasn't materialized. At this point, unless they snag someone in Round 1 or 2 of the draft, that ship seems to have sailed. There clearly has been tension between Mac and the coaching staff . . . what that means for him sticking with the team longer term remains to be seen.
It's also possible BB has already determined that Mac isn't the guy to lead them to the promised land, and rather than waste more time has decided they need a better option. There has been talk that Bill didn't love Jones and was told he had to draft him, which would set up a power struggle between him and the Krafts. That one may be more of a media-driven narrative to try to make things rockier than they really are. Like I mentioned, there are media folks actively trying to get BB bounced as head coach, so I am a little skeptical with some of the hot takes that get laid out there.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Did he really have fantasy value - outside of 2QB leagues where every QB has some value?
I mean NFL value if you dont think he's even worth a 1st round pick. I'd rather have him than Levis.
jtd13
Footballguy
This seems like the right tone to take.
"BB doesn't commit to Mac as a starter!"
Have these guys not seen many BB pressers? BB not committing to something he doesn't have to is pretty much his M.O.
"Mike Florio reports pats are shopping Jones"
Yeah I have seen enough reports from Florio that were basically him trying to drum up drama to assume that if Florio is the source, there is no source.
Then Curran jumps in with some speculation on why they might be shopping Jones and it gets taken as a separate report. I'm not a Mac Jones fan, but this just seems like your typical "drum up some drama for the slow news period" thing.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Given the history between BOB and Mac, I have to imagine there's a solid enough relationship upon which to build something.
WRT the media & Belichick, I'm not in Boston anymore (only ever was for a year) but had been a BSJ subscriber. I couldn't square the venom from Bedard last year. It felt to me that it was beyond his strong disagreement with the draft and the Patricia/Judge ****show. At some point Greg just went all in on the negativity. It almost seemed personal. EEI has always been kind of a typical talk sports show (lotta time to fill etc.) and I'm out of touch on the local TV hosts/ Globe/Herald.
It stands to reason that a number of the media has developed a bit of a grudge against BB.. years of being crapped on + natural lean to clickbait, blood in the water here. "In Bill we trust" was a thing for so long but he's burning through the good will with all of these boneheaded moves. Bad drafts, bad FA signings, bad coaching. It's plain as day.
I mostly agree with @Anarchy99 that this (shopping Mac) is probably a bit of old smoke being played up but no doubt, Bill was probably peeved with Mac. I was. He (Mac) definitely seems less like a long term answer than he did a year ago. But I'd be stunned if they bail on Mac now that BOB is in the house. At least not without more than Zap.
They're still way behind most of the AFC contenders in terms of on the field talent. Mac and BOB can hopefully reinstate offensive competency together but unless they smash the draft, they're still a ways from contending. They need an infusion of talent everywhere.
Another theory: Bill took the criticism of his "no days off" mentality to heart and is trying on a softer, kinder Pats mindset. Maybe the "no days off" mentality was actually really important for the success of the staff and team in general. He's never been a great GM, he and his team just outworked everyone and now the mediocre GM is exposed by a more middling work ethic at Gillette.
WRT the media & Belichick, I'm not in Boston anymore (only ever was for a year) but had been a BSJ subscriber. I couldn't square the venom from Bedard last year. It felt to me that it was beyond his strong disagreement with the draft and the Patricia/Judge ****show. At some point Greg just went all in on the negativity. It almost seemed personal. EEI has always been kind of a typical talk sports show (lotta time to fill etc.) and I'm out of touch on the local TV hosts/ Globe/Herald.
It stands to reason that a number of the media has developed a bit of a grudge against BB.. years of being crapped on + natural lean to clickbait, blood in the water here. "In Bill we trust" was a thing for so long but he's burning through the good will with all of these boneheaded moves. Bad drafts, bad FA signings, bad coaching. It's plain as day.
I mostly agree with @Anarchy99 that this (shopping Mac) is probably a bit of old smoke being played up but no doubt, Bill was probably peeved with Mac. I was. He (Mac) definitely seems less like a long term answer than he did a year ago. But I'd be stunned if they bail on Mac now that BOB is in the house. At least not without more than Zap.
They're still way behind most of the AFC contenders in terms of on the field talent. Mac and BOB can hopefully reinstate offensive competency together but unless they smash the draft, they're still a ways from contending. They need an infusion of talent everywhere.
Another theory: Bill took the criticism of his "no days off" mentality to heart and is trying on a softer, kinder Pats mindset. Maybe the "no days off" mentality was actually really important for the success of the staff and team in general. He's never been a great GM, he and his team just outworked everyone and now the mediocre GM is exposed by a more middling work ethic at Gillette.
-OZ-
Footballguy
He’d have been good in SF I think. But he’s mostly replaceable.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There has been media fueled suggestion that NE should trade Jones for Lance straight up . . . although I doubt either side would be overjoyed with that prospect, nor would the QBs involved.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Karen Guregian of the Boston Herald thinks the info about NE "shopping" Jones was leaked by the Jones camp, not NE. She also speculates that Jones wants out from under the Patriots and doesn't want to be there. Not sure if that's 100% speculation, informed opinion, or her just trying to connect some dots.
There really hasn't been anything substantial that people have uncovered in the past few days since PFT said the Pats had approached at least 4 teams trying to trade Mac.
There really hasn't been anything substantial that people have uncovered in the past few days since PFT said the Pats had approached at least 4 teams trying to trade Mac.
Boston
Footballguy
Being forced to work with Joe Judge and Matt Patricia will leave a lasting mark…putting those two in charge of the offense is probably the dumbest thing BB has done since he has been with the Pats…and everyone but BB knew it as soon as it happened.
rockaction
Footballguy
I really have to question his judgment about personnel decisions given who he tried to trot out last year as OC (even though he retained the OC label for himself). Just a disaster.
This wasn't supposed to be a Jones comment, though, so maybe I'll leave it at that. Nah, I'll plow ahead and say that Jones's on-field demeanor last season was the sign of something gone horribly awry. He's not good enough to be showing up everybody like that. Then again, if it was my career, legacy, and future earnings on the line and I was being ineptly coached with dog poo gameplans, I might also act that way.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There is all sort of speculation out there from jump street involving Jones. One narrative is that BB never wanted Jones in the first place and ownership forced him on Bill. That would have started things down a rocky road. There has been some discussion that Jones doesn't take well to coaching, is a know it all, is a spoiled rich kid, and questions everything. That doesn't generally play well with BB. Clearly there were issues last year with Patricia and Judge, and those two generally liked working with Zappe much more than Jones (Zappe just kept his mouth shut and did what he was told). BB did not like Jones going outside the Patriots organization for help / ideas / coping and potentially bad mouthing the coaching staff. There's no other way to describe it other than there is definitely a lot of friction there.
Jayded
Footballguy
I’m curious what sort of draft compensation the Pats would want for Jones?
If I’m Houston, I should be picking up that phone. There are enough questions about BY & Stroud to throw a lower round pick at the Pats to see if Jones can take the next step. If he falters, you’re picking high in 2024 with an ability to rectify things (Williams/Maye, etc).
If I’m Houston, I should be picking up that phone. There are enough questions about BY & Stroud to throw a lower round pick at the Pats to see if Jones can take the next step. If he falters, you’re picking high in 2024 with an ability to rectify things (Williams/Maye, etc).
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Stroud looks like a much more solid prospect than Max Jones ever did. I don’t see any questions about Stroud.
Young & ARich, maybe. I don’t think Stroud will be a choice for HOU at 1.02 - and if he is, there’s no need to deal for Jones.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
As a Zappe SF shareholder it’s all music to my ears.
Problem with this plan, and other similar posts about other teams saying 'well if so and so they can just pick Williams or Maye' is that they have to finish with the top 2 or 3 picks, and while of course it's possible this is not all that likely. A lot has to happen for this to be the outcome. Someone like Jones is a middle of the road QB, not terrible but not great, so while the Texans won't have a great team he'd probably elevate them a bit from last year and they'd finish with 6 or 7 wins. They have a chance to take one of the top QB's in this draft, while not perfect prospects that's what they should do.
Jayded
Footballguy
Stroud has been awful under pressure. The Georgia game was the only one he handled pressure well. Naturally concerned his struggles continue there behind Houston’s OL.
Said differently, are you 1-3 rounds of compensation sure Stroud is better than Jones? I’m not. If it’s Stroud vs Jones, I’d probably pick Jones because of the presumed cheaper cost.
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Jayded
Footballguy
Even with Young or Stroud, Houston’s being picked to finish in the bottom three next year. We are more than just a QB away, which is also why I’m hesitant to rush in and start the QB clock with many other holes.
Think along these lines as a plan - if you could get Jones (or Lance) for a 3/4 round pick, now you have options at 1.2. You could stay and pick Will Anderson. You could try to trade down to a team like the Colts and make them pay a ton as a division foe, especially including a 1 next yea to move up.
So it could be possible to get a cheap starter (Jones/Lance), slide down a bit still in the top 10, and grab valuable 2024 picks. If Jones is still garbage or just ok, you could have 3 first round picks in my scenario (Houston’s, Cleveland’s, and 2023 trade up team’s) to move into position for Maye or Williams if they are your franchise guy too. Would just love to see Houston be creative.
rockaction
Footballguy
There's the whole problem with your scenario. He's not going for a third-round pick. It's probably at least a late first or early second, and probably more than that.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Offseason, where twits like Florio and Curren can manufacture stories from vapor. :sigh:
Jayded
Footballguy
That was why I asked the question I asked initially - what comp would it take? We headed down the path of “why” but saving one or two of this first round picks was always my hope/aim if it was realistic compensation for him.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sorry about that. By the way, I wasn't being rude. My response sounded a little terse. I think a late first plus a quality player at a surplus position for you guys, maybe. If you have surplus talent anywhere, that is. I don't know Houston's roster really well. But something a little more than a late first. I'd be hard-pressed to see paying the number two overall when Jones hasn't exactly lit things up. I'm take a chance on Stroud or Young and see what they could do.
Jayded
Footballguy
All good. Mostly trying to challenge my fellow fans in convention. The only way to acquire a QB isn’t the draft and especially if there are questions about all of the top guys in this draft.
If it wasn’t Jones, I’d still want Caserio to kick the tires on Jones, Trey Lance, and even Zach Wilson. Some may be bad ideas or non-starters but I’d be very curious how we’d react if the price was lower than others think on a QB. Yes Wilson looks like a bust, but if the Jets give him up for a 5 or 6, and the Panthers take BY, I’m definitely pausing as to the right next step.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Jones is not worth a first round pick. If NE is asking for a first round pick he will remain the game manager as a Patriot.
jm192
Footballguy
I just don't see it. New England spent a 1st two years ago and now they're ready to move on. It's the old "if he's worth so much, why don't you keep him?"
Can't see a first for a game manager who seems to have issues with authority.
rockaction
Footballguy
I appreciate the input, but I don't think you're getting Mac Jones for only a second. He's proven he can start a season in this league (Buffalo wind notwithstanding -- the game they wouldn't let him throw, and I know all the implications of that). Guy threw for like 300-plus against the Cowboys and VIkings his past two years. Maybe the Patriots have had it with him and they will let him go cheaply, but I can think of at least a few franchises that would have jumped at a second-round pick, including the team that was originally rumored to have wanted him at three overall.
rockaction
Footballguy
Maybe I'm underestimating what a first-round pick means vis a vis my overestimation of Jones as an easy first-round selection were he in the draft today.
Perhaps it's a combo of that. We haven't even scratched the surface of what he could do. Patricia as his coach? The guy that showed up late to his own meetings in Detroit? Forget that.
Look, he's no worldbeater with arm strength, but he's been light years ahead of Lance and Wilson, the overall two and three in 2021.
Perhaps it's a combo of that. We haven't even scratched the surface of what he could do. Patricia as his coach? The guy that showed up late to his own meetings in Detroit? Forget that.
Look, he's no worldbeater with arm strength, but he's been light years ahead of Lance and Wilson, the overall two and three in 2021.
massraider
Footballguy
What's the upside here? Cousins? Carr?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't know what Mac Jones' value is these days, but I am guessing it's more than a second-round pick swap, a 3rd, and a 5th. This writer suggests that as a package for the Colts to land Jones. I don't see that making sense for either side. The Colts have the #4 pick . . . why trade for Jones? The writer suggests NE would roll with Zappe or Teddy Bridgewater. Pretty sure NE has no interest in giving up their starting QB for a 3rd and a 5th (not a ton of difference in players available in the 2nd round).
LINK
LINK
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Respectfully I’m not sure that’s accurate.
Some might argue that we’ve seen his ceiling, and it’s not high enough.
The knock on him on draft day was that he was the safest floor/most NFL ready, but lacked the arm and overall talent to have the ceiling of some of the other prospects.
I agree he’s been better than Lance & Wilson, but that’s like saying a VW Thing is more reliable than a Yugo. It a low bar is all.
It’s a non-zero chance that we’ve seen Mac’s ceiling. If the Pats believe that, it would make sense for them to move on.
As for the BUF game that they didn’t let him throw, I remain stunned by that.
I’ve seen damn near every weather condition played in and I’ve never, ever seen a team just refuse to throw the football. I was, and am still stunned by what I saw that day. That was a team that just didn’t trust their QB. Felt like a “writing on the wall” moment for Mac.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
BB coaches differently than every other coach in the league. He looked at it that they were ahead, the defense was stellar, and there was no need to risk a turnover that could swing the game. I also disagree that we may have seen the best Jones has to offer. The offensive preparation, coaching, and play calling last year was high school level. They have some decent pieces (others will say untalented pieces) for him to work with. They just need someone that can get them to work together, call plays at a pro level, and understand how defenses adjust to what the offense is doing.
There are worse units than Parker, Bourne, Juju, Thornton, Jones, Henry, Gesicki, Stevenson to work with, and they will probably add someone else between the draft, free agency, or trade. If they also can get an OL in the draft, that would also help. His upside is how he played against the Vikings last year (382/2/0). NE really didn't do much to help him last season.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t doubt that Pats fans are hopeful that Jones is capable of being the 382/2/0 guy in the Vikings game.
I believe that game was an outlier.
And for the sake of discussion it’s worth pointing out that the Pats scored 0 points in the 4th quarter of a game that they lost by 7.
Box scores can be deceiving. If the Pats get this Mac Jones for 17 games, they’re 0-17 but his stats look pretty.
I’ll admit Jones is better than I expected coming out of the draft. I’ve said it a bunch of times. His ceiling was higher than it thought it was.
But his floor was getting benched for Bailey Zappe, so…that also exceeded expectations.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I, for one, am only willing to give him another ten years to sort it out.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
So they were at a "high school level" and exactly what part of that falls on the Head Coach?
And is Mac Jones excused from this high school level?
Is ther any accountability here? Just curious.
I mean, which is it?
Boston
Footballguy
The sad part about Mac Jones is he is entering his third year and we still don't know what he is...he had a quality rookie year and looked like he was going to be a solid NFL QB...not elite but one that you can win with that has a high IQ and the ability to execute multiple game plans which is always important with the Pats...his second year was a complete disaster...BB hung him out to dry with a 1st grade coaching staff and a surrounding cast that put him in a really bad spot...while this wasn't his fault, and he was understandably frustrated he did not handle it well and he showed an immature side that is not acceptable if you are going to be a successful NFL QB and team leader although it does appear his teammates support and respect him...so we now enter year three with more questions than answers and while I think he will be the starter I would not be surprised one bit if Zappe is in the mix depending on how they both play...pre-draft and during his first year I was very high on Mac (and was really happy the Pats drafted him), I thought he had the potential to run an offense like Drew Brees and be a guy you could win with if given the right weapons...now I am starting to be less convinced he is an NFL QB that is anything more than OK...the reason I say this is he just isn't athletic enough for today's NFL...I'm not saying he has to be a runner, but I do truly believe today's QB has to be able to move like a Joe Burrow in and out of the pocket to be really effective...I don't think Mac has that in him and due to that he will always be limited and a guy that will only take you so far.
that actually seems like fair value, the Pats - Jones marriage seems like a low probability of working out, if I were the Pats I would take that and move on.
