QB's who choke in The Big Game (1 Viewer)

[Tough As Nails]

sorry, but you can't make a list and then go "except for the good games he had, he choked in big games"...

Well, of course, when you remove the good games where he didn't choke then he did bad and choked in the others... just looking at your list and going purely from stats (as I don't vividly remember all these games), I would say that:

1993: 28 45 331 2 2 - lost to DAL 17-27

1995: 21 39 307 3 2 - lost to DAL 27-38 - championship round

1996: 14 27 246 2 0 - SB champs

1997: 25 42 256 3 1 - lost SB to DEN 24-31

1998: 20 35 292 2 2 - lost to SF 27-30

2007: 19 35 236 2 2 - lost to NYG 23-20 - championship round

2003: 15 28 180 2 1 - lost to PHIL 17-20

these werent' bad games... Leaving only the loss to Dallas in 1994, Atlanta in 2002, St. Louis in 2001, and Minnesota in 2004 as bad losses... But I do remember the horrible HORRIBLE coaching in 2001, 2002, and 2004... and I also remember how 1994 was his SECOND SEASON!!

Also, to the person who said he is 3-6 with 16 tds and 18 interceptions in his last 9 playoff games (since the SB loss)... Take out the STL game and the MIN game and he has thrown 13 TDs and 8 INTs... The issue here is SAMPLE SIZE skewing teh stats with a few very bad games (when he didn't have very good teams and had horrible coaches)...

You lost your argument badly including that Philly game. Favre was terrible in that game.All too often we judge a performance on the stat line. The truth is that Favre tends to press when his team is doing poorly (losing)...that "pressing" sometimes leads to highlight reel plays, sometimes to very ugly interceptions (and subsequent stat lines).

Since playoff games are against a higher caliber of opponent, with a far higher incidence of "losing", it is only natural that Favre has "pressed" more often in them...thus earning the title of "choker". BUt said title is unfair simply because of the circumstances. The truth is, without "pressing", Favre would have lost most of those games anyway.

Uh... that was the 4th and 27 game... Favre had absolutely nothing to do with losing that game...

Um, Favre threw the ridiculously awful INT in overtime which set up Philly's winning score. I like Favre, but that was one of the worst INTs at a crucial time in a playoff game that I have ever seen. He just turned and lofted it up for grabs.

overtime never should have happened...remember 4th and 27...

But overtime DID happen! And Favre's INT was the biggest reason why they lost the game in overtime, rather than winning it.

Why is Brett's interception any bigger than Barnett blowing his assignment allowing them to convert the 4th down? Just because he's the QB? Did Brett contribute to the loss, heck yeah, but he's wasn't soley respondible.

The argument that he was referring to said, "Favre had absolutely nothing to do with losing that game." Nobody said he was solely responsible. But somebody DID say that he had no blame whatsoever. That's ridiculous and that's what Ghost Rider was referring to.

 

[Donnybrook]

My list:Ben RoethlisbergerDonovan McNabbTony RomoJust these three guys Favre Im not sure about, although Id think no

McNabb, maybe. Roethlisberger, hell no. He has a SuperBowl ring in his first 4 years so that automatically makes him not a choker. Tony Romo I also disgaree with, he's 0-2 in the playoffs but played clearly well enough to win his first playoff loss, he fumbled the snap which has nothing to do with QB play and he shouldn't have even been holding the snap anyway. Bad coaching move to put your starting QB in to hold kicks.

Sorry, but Romo is already a choke artist.

So I guess you absolve Terry Glen of all responsibility when he fumbles the ball on the Cowboys 2 yard line. You know the play that resulted in a Seattle safety and allowed the Hawks to get the ball back on the 50. The defense didn't choke when they allowed the Hawks to score a TD 4 plays later. And Patrick Crayton didn’t choke when he was wide open and dropped a possible game ending TD pass vs. the Giants. Sorry, but Romo played good enough to win in both games.

 

[Finless]

I like Favre as much as the next guy but I would never feel completely comfortable with him in the big game.

 

[Tanner9919]

I don't understand the point of your thread at all. You say it's not an anti-Favre thread, but yet you basically call him a choker in big games? How ridiculous. So what your saying is Brett Favre alone lost all of those big games they played in the last 14 years and the only big game he won (96) he lucked out because he got to play a lesser NE team? Alrighty then..

Peyton Manning is a bigger choker in these games, than Favre.Manning has a career 9-14 post season record, 4 or 5 times he's exited the playoffs in one game ( one-n-done). he never won a college championship or HS championship. He won a SB, yes, but he also lost 41-0 to the NY Jets in 2002..he drove the Colts to a 14-2 record in 2005, and lost to Pittsburgh in the divisional round. Lost to SD in div round this season, with the second best record in the AFC..how many times has Manning lost @ home in the playoffs?! Its ridiculous to go 14-2 and lose @ home one-n-done like he did in 2005 and again he goes 13-3 in 2007, and loses at home..Manning has done far less in post-season , than Favre...not even up for debate, IMO.

 

[Mr.Pack]

I was watching the NFL's greatest games last night, and I got to thinking - outside of one SB, Favre would have the reputation of losing in the big game.

Fore reference, here's a summary of Favre's final playoff game each season:

1993: 28 45 331 2 2 - lost to DAL 17-27

1994: 18 35 211 0 1 - lost to DAL 9-35

1995: 21 39 307 3 2 - lost to DAL 27-38 - championship round

1996: 14 27 246 2 0 - SB champs

1997: 25 42 256 3 1 - lost SB to DEN 24-31

1998: 20 35 292 2 2 - lost to SF 27-30

2001: 26 44 281 2 6 - lost to STL 17-45

2002:20 42 247 1 2 - lost to ATL 7-27

2003: 15 28 180 2 1 - lost to PHIL 17-20

2004: 22 33 216 1 4 - lost to MIN 17-31

2007: 19 35 236 2 2 - lost to NYG 23-20 - championship round

By definition, everyone's final playoff game will be a loss unless they happened to win the SB that year. Generally, people's stats aren't terrific in a loss, I understand that.

Here's the historical context for my hypothetical: In 2006, Denver was the best team in the AFC, by record and scoring differential. The Broncos had HFA wrapped up early, and sat people for the playoffs. The Jags came into Denver and upset the Broncos, which gave NE a trip to the SB. The difference in this game was a critical 4th down conversion by penalty - Michael Dean Perry didn't get his fat ### off of the field when JAX was punting. The ensuing penalty gave JAX a 1st down, which they turned into a FG which became the difference in the game. ( ).

Now - here's the hypothetical: Had MDP not casually walked off the field, JAX would have punted on that drive and it is very possible Denver would have won that game. They would have hosted NE, (whom they beat earlier that season, IN New England, 34-8). Denver was primed to make a SB trip in 1996. Had they faced GB in the 1996 SB, it's not clear that Denver could have beaten GB (who was a superior team), but they would have certainly put up a better fight than NE did. for the sake of this hypothetical, let's assume that Denver won in 1996, and history since SB XXX unfolded exactly the same.

Note: I understand that GB did beat Denver pretty badly in 1996. That was a meaningless game as Denver already had HFA wrapped up and Elway did not play. I make the assumption that Denver could have beat GB in XXX based on what happened in 1997.

Within the confines of this hypothetical, we would then be looking at Favre in 2008, saying - "man, he can't win the big one", like we say about Marino and we said about Manning (up until last year). In 22 playoff games, Favre has thrown 2 or more ints 8x, or 36%. for comparison, Elway has thrown for 2 or more in 18% , Brady is also @ 18%, Manning joins Favre @ 36%, Marino has 55% Montana - 23%, Young - 20%. I think that Favre's hypothetical reputation as a choker might be deserved.

In a nutshell, I am linking MDP's penalty to Favre's lone SB win: Because of MDP, Denver lost, which enabled a lesser NE team go to the SB, which allowed GB to win, giving Favre his lone SB ring.

after all of this rambling, I basically have two points: (1): butterfly effect: something as trivial as a 12 man on the field penalty could forever alter reputations of players not even involved in that game. (2) reputations such as "choker" are pretty irrelevant due to the sheer number of factors that go into end of season success.

note: To GB homers - this is not meant to be an anti-Favre thread, nor is it meant to be a Favre-Elway comparison.

edit: changed title

ok

 

[Mr.Pack]

sorry, but you can't make a list and then go "except for the good games he had, he choked in big games"...

Well, of course, when you remove the good games where he didn't choke then he did bad and choked in the others... just looking at your list and going purely from stats (as I don't vividly remember all these games), I would say that:

1993: 28 45 331 2 2 - lost to DAL 17-27

1995: 21 39 307 3 2 - lost to DAL 27-38 - championship round

1996: 14 27 246 2 0 - SB champs

1997: 25 42 256 3 1 - lost SB to DEN 24-31

1998: 20 35 292 2 2 - lost to SF 27-30

2007: 19 35 236 2 2 - lost to NYG 23-20 - championship round

2003: 15 28 180 2 1 - lost to PHIL 17-20

these werent' bad games... Leaving only the loss to Dallas in 1994, Atlanta in 2002, St. Louis in 2001, and Minnesota in 2004 as bad losses... But I do remember the horrible HORRIBLE coaching in 2001, 2002, and 2004... and I also remember how 1994 was his SECOND SEASON!!

Also, to the person who said he is 3-6 with 16 tds and 18 interceptions in his last 9 playoff games (since the SB loss)... Take out the STL game and the MIN game and he has thrown 13 TDs and 8 INTs... The issue here is SAMPLE SIZE skewing teh stats with a few very bad games (when he didn't have very good teams and had horrible coaches)...

You lost your argument badly including that Philly game. Favre was terrible in that game.All too often we judge a performance on the stat line. The truth is that Favre tends to press when his team is doing poorly (losing)...that "pressing" sometimes leads to highlight reel plays, sometimes to very ugly interceptions (and subsequent stat lines).

Since playoff games are against a higher caliber of opponent, with a far higher incidence of "losing", it is only natural that Favre has "pressed" more often in them...thus earning the title of "choker". BUt said title is unfair simply because of the circumstances. The truth is, without "pressing", Favre would have lost most of those games anyway.

And here I thought it was a team game.

 

[Ghost Rider]

sorry, but you can't make a list and then go "except for the good games he had, he choked in big games"...

Well, of course, when you remove the good games where he didn't choke then he did bad and choked in the others... just looking at your list and going purely from stats (as I don't vividly remember all these games), I would say that:

1993: 28 45 331 2 2 - lost to DAL 17-27

1995: 21 39 307 3 2 - lost to DAL 27-38 - championship round

1996: 14 27 246 2 0 - SB champs

1997: 25 42 256 3 1 - lost SB to DEN 24-31

1998: 20 35 292 2 2 - lost to SF 27-30

2007: 19 35 236 2 2 - lost to NYG 23-20 - championship round

2003: 15 28 180 2 1 - lost to PHIL 17-20

these werent' bad games... Leaving only the loss to Dallas in 1994, Atlanta in 2002, St. Louis in 2001, and Minnesota in 2004 as bad losses... But I do remember the horrible HORRIBLE coaching in 2001, 2002, and 2004... and I also remember how 1994 was his SECOND SEASON!!

Also, to the person who said he is 3-6 with 16 tds and 18 interceptions in his last 9 playoff games (since the SB loss)... Take out the STL game and the MIN game and he has thrown 13 TDs and 8 INTs... The issue here is SAMPLE SIZE skewing teh stats with a few very bad games (when he didn't have very good teams and had horrible coaches)...

You lost your argument badly including that Philly game. Favre was terrible in that game.All too often we judge a performance on the stat line. The truth is that Favre tends to press when his team is doing poorly (losing)...that "pressing" sometimes leads to highlight reel plays, sometimes to very ugly interceptions (and subsequent stat lines).

Since playoff games are against a higher caliber of opponent, with a far higher incidence of "losing", it is only natural that Favre has "pressed" more often in them...thus earning the title of "choker". BUt said title is unfair simply because of the circumstances. The truth is, without "pressing", Favre would have lost most of those games anyway.

Uh... that was the 4th and 27 game... Favre had absolutely nothing to do with losing that game...

Um, Favre threw the ridiculously awful INT in overtime which set up Philly's winning score. I like Favre, but that was one of the worst INTs at a crucial time in a playoff game that I have ever seen. He just turned and lofted it up for grabs.

overtime never should have happened...remember 4th and 27...

But overtime DID happen! And Favre's INT was the biggest reason why they lost the game in overtime, rather than winning it.

Why is Brett's interception any bigger than Barnett blowing his assignment allowing them to convert the 4th down? Just because he's the QB? Did Brett contribute to the loss, heck yeah, but he's wasn't soley respondible.

The argument that he was referring to said, "Favre had absolutely nothing to do with losing that game." Nobody said he was solely responsible. But somebody DID say that he had no blame whatsoever. That's ridiculous and that's what Ghost Rider was referring to.

Exactly. And to clarify, Favre's INT was the biggest play IN OVERTIME for why the Packers lost. Yes, 4th and 26 was awful, but in OT, with the game all tied and basically 0-0 for all intents and purposes, Favre's INT was the back-breaker. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise.

I don't understand the point of your thread at all. You say it's not an anti-Favre thread, but yet you basically call him a choker in big games? How ridiculous. So what your saying is Brett Favre alone lost all of those big games they played in the last 14 years and the only big game he won (96) he lucked out because he got to play a lesser NE team? Alrighty then..

Peyton Manning is a bigger choker in these games, than Favre.Manning has a career 9-14 post season record, 4 or 5 times he's exited the playoffs in one game ( one-n-done). he never won a college championship or HS championship. He won a SB, yes, but he also lost 41-0 to the NY Jets in 2002..he drove the Colts to a 14-2 record in 2005, and lost to Pittsburgh in the divisional round. Lost to SD in div round this season, with the second best record in the AFC..how many times has Manning lost @ home in the playoffs?! Its ridiculous to go 14-2 and lose @ home one-n-done like he did in 2005 and again he goes 13-3 in 2007, and loses at home..

Manning has done far less in post-season , than Favre...not even up for debate, IMO.

Manning hasn't even been in the league for 14 years, so for him to have a postseason record of 9-14 is a neat trick.

 

[scott72]

I don't understand the point of your thread at all. You say it's not an anti-Favre thread, but yet you basically call him a choker in big games? How ridiculous. So what your saying is Brett Favre alone lost all of those big games they played in the last 14 years and the only big game he won (96) he lucked out because he got to play a lesser NE team? Alrighty then..

Peyton Manning is a bigger choker in these games, than Favre.Manning has a career 9-14 post season record, 4 or 5 times he's exited the playoffs in one game ( one-n-done). he never won a college championship or HS championship. He won a SB, yes, but he also lost 41-0 to the NY Jets in 2002..he drove the Colts to a 14-2 record in 2005, and lost to Pittsburgh in the divisional round. Lost to SD in div round this season, with the second best record in the AFC..how many times has Manning lost @ home in the playoffs?! Its ridiculous to go 14-2 and lose @ home one-n-done like he did in 2005 and again he goes 13-3 in 2007, and loses at home..Manning has done far less in post-season , than Favre...not even up for debate, IMO.

Not too mention Peyton plays in a dome where the weather is never a factor. Manning has also always had WR talent all around him, with a solid TE and running game. Favre hasn't had this kind of talent year after year.

 

[Borat]

Teams lose games, not individual players.

That being said, there are at least 10 quarterbacks I think I'd rather have in the game during crunch time than Brett Favre.

 

[scott72]

Ghost, I misread the intent in your statement. I thought you were saying the sole reason the Pack lost is because Brett tossed the pick. It certainly was the final nail in the coffin, but so many other things happened in that game to get it to that point. I think we agree on that point.

 

[scott72]

Teams lose games, not individual players.

That being said, there are at least 10 quarterbacks I think I'd rather have in the game during crunch time than Brett Favre.

Yet he owns 36 career fourth-quarter or overtime comebacks (which includes three postseason contests). Not sure who your ten choices are, but I'd be curious to see how they match up with that. http://www.packers.com/team/players/favre_brett/

 

[Borat]

Teams lose games, not individual players.

That being said, there are at least 10 quarterbacks I think I'd rather have in the game during crunch time than Brett Favre.

Yet he owns 36 career fourth-quarter or overtime comebacks (which includes three postseason contests). Not sure who your ten choices are, but I'd be curious to see how they match up with that. http://www.packers.com/team/players/favre_brett/

36 career comeback wins is nice, but he's been in the league longer than almost every other QB out there. He probably has more 4th quarter INTs than almost every other active QB, so I don't think you can really come to much of a conclusion based on your statistic. Vinny Testaverde has more career TDs than Carson Palmer, but that doesn't mean I'd take Vinny over Palmer.Besides, I've always been of the opinion that "4th quarter comebacks" is an overrated statistic. In order to come back, you have to fall behind first.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Teams lose games, not individual players.That being said, there are at least 10 quarterbacks I think I'd rather have in the game during crunch time than Brett Favre.

I think you and others are forgetting how clutch Favre used to be at the end of games. In recent years, he has struggled a bit at the end of playoff games, but in the mid to late 90's (his prime), he was money at the end of games. The only QBs since the early 80's that I would take over Favre in crunch time are Montana, Elway and Brady.

Ghost, I misread the intent in your statement. I thought you were saying the sole reason the Pack lost is because Brett tossed the pick. It certainly was the final nail in the coffin, but so many other things happened in that game to get it to that point. I think we agree on that point.

It's all good.

 

[Godsbrother]

My list:Ben RoethlisbergerDonovan McNabbTony RomoJust these three guys Favre Im not sure about, although Id think no

What do you call all of the QBs that never or rarely make the playoffs? Guys like Carson Palmer

 

[Ghost Rider]

My list:Ben RoethlisbergerDonovan McNabbTony RomoJust these three guys Favre Im not sure about, although Id think no

What do you call all of the QBs that never or rarely make the playoffs? Guys like Carson Palmer

Palmer is a great QB. It is not his fault that the Bengals defenses have finished 19th, 28th, 30th, and 27th in the four seasons he has been the starting QB for the Bengals. Plus, in those four seasons, the Bengals have a combined record of 34-30, and we know the defense wasn't much help, so you gotta give Palmer props for that.

 

[Godsbrother]

My list:Ben RoethlisbergerDonovan McNabbTony RomoJust these three guys Favre Im not sure about, although Id think no

What do you call all of the QBs that never or rarely make the playoffs? Guys like Carson Palmer

Palmer is a great QB. It is not his fault that the Bengals defenses have finished 19th, 28th, 30th, and 27th in the four seasons he has been the starting QB for the Bengals. Plus, in those four seasons, the Bengals have a combined record of 34-30, and we know the defense wasn't much help, so you gotta give Palmer props for that.

I was just having some fun with NorrisB.My point is that if you are going to call QBs that don't win in the playoffs a choker (though Roethlisberger has a 5-2 playoff record) then you should have an even worse term for QBs that don't make it.

 

[Jous]

My list:Ben RoethlisbergerDonovan McNabbTony RomoJust these three guys Favre Im not sure about, although Id think no

What do you call all of the QBs that never or rarely make the playoffs? Guys like Carson Palmer

Palmer is a great QB. It is not his fault that the Bengals defenses have finished 19th, 28th, 30th, and 27th in the four seasons he has been the starting QB for the Bengals. Plus, in those four seasons, the Bengals have a combined record of 34-30, and we know the defense wasn't much help, so you gotta give Palmer props for that.

I was just having some fun with NorrisB.My point is that if you are going to call QBs that don't win in the playoffs a choker (though Roethlisberger has a 5-2 playoff record) then you should have an even worse term for QBs that don't make it.

This is true. I'd much rather be known as a QB who chokes in the playoffs (and if Roethlisberger is a choker with a SB ring, well then I would LOVE to have a choker as my QB!) than one who can't even make the playoffs.The defense excuse for the Bengals is a valid one, but you can't solely blame the defense for Palmer not making the playoffs. Palmer does tend to have a little reputation for coming up smaller than he should when things are on the line.

 

[moleculo]

I was watching the NFL's greatest games last night, and I got to thinking -

note: To GB homers - this is not meant to be an anti-Favre thread, nor is it meant to be a Favre-Elway comparison.

ok

yeah - I know that's how this thread ended up. My point originally was that some QB's get lumped as a "choker", which is unfair. I was trying to say that no one considers Favre a "choker" because he has won a SB but looking at the #'s, one would be justified to come to that conclusion; therefore the whole "choker" thing is pretty stupid.

I guess where I was wrong is that some people do hold the sentiment that Favre is a choker.

 

[sho nuff]

I was watching the NFL's greatest games last night, and I got to thinking -

note: To GB homers - this is not meant to be an anti-Favre thread, nor is it meant to be a Favre-Elway comparison.

ok

yeah - I know that's how this thread ended up. My point originally was that some QB's get lumped as a "choker", which is unfair. I was trying to say that no one considers Favre a "choker" because he has won a SB but looking at the #'s, one would be justified to come to that conclusion; therefore the whole "choker" thing is pretty stupid.

I guess where I was wrong is that some people do hold the sentiment that Favre is a choker.

Only if you look at just the numbers from his losses...that is where your argument loses all credibility. Should we look at Brady's numbers for their losses and claim he is a choker? Its not shocking that most of the time, when a team loses...the losing QB's stats may not be all that good.

 

[cstu]

I just think because of his knack for throwing interceptions it usually catches up with him in the playoffs. He's had a few losses that you can hang directly on him for throwing INT's. That doesn't make him a choker though.