Questions about Covid (1 Viewer)

[jamny]

It's obviously very difficult to track all the cases in the US and around the world, so there are questions that we will probably never get answers to. It's probably impossible in many cases. I do wish, with all the money spent to battle the virus, that there was more searchable information available. Maybe there are answers to some of your questions and someone else can provide it.

What questions do you have regarding Covid that you wish there was an answer to?

1 - How many people were hospitalized or died from reinfection without a vaccine?

2 - How many people have died from Omicron in the US?

 

[ChiefD]

3. How many nurses and doctors have to quit the profession forever before the unvaccinated wake up? 

 

[AAABatteries]

4. How can I trigger loss of smell and taste to lose weight while not getting Covid?

 

[Dezbelief]

4. How can I trigger loss of smell and taste to lose weight while not getting Covid?

I'll take plastic surgeons in Tijuana for $500, Alex.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

VT department of health case dashboard has added 90 days of breakdown for:

case rates, hospitalization rates and deaths. All broken down by both age (10 year increments) and vaccination status.

10-19 year olds, unvaccinated are a huge driver right now of cases. And 15x case rate of vaccinated cases within their age group.

case rates for omicron are spiking in both vaccinated and unvaccinated though. Trying to watch hospitalizations and ICU as our cases are 10 higher than what I thought was possible. 
 

not really a question there but I’m not a frequent reader of the triggering threads, not sure how prevalent that level of breakdown is common or known here.

https://www.healthvermont.gov/covid-19/current-activity/case-dashboard

The arrows along the bottom edge of the dashboard take you to the different pages of data, pages 3 and 4 have the breakdowns. 

 

[jamny]

How about a list of comorbidities that were more susceptible to serious illness and those that posed no real threat.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I'd like to know how many people didn't get necessary hospital care after vaccines were available because the beds were occupied by the unvaccinated.

 

[RavenFan]

I'd like to know how many people didn't get necessary hospital care after vaccines were available because the beds were occupied by the unvaccinated.

Hospital in Maryland are cancelling elective surgeries because the unvaccinated are crashing our healthcare system.  And Maryland is 70% fully vaxxed.

It's truly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. 

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Hospital in Maryland are cancelling elective surgeries because the unvaccinated are crashing our healthcare system.  And Maryland is 70% fully vaxxed.

It's truly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. 

I was thinking of this story.

 

[Anarchy99]

My wife works in healthcare and is saying that half of the people hospitalized now are people WITH COVID not people hospitalized FROM COVID. As in they were admitted for other reasons and tested positive (and the COVID part of it has nothing to do with needing treatment). Even the NYT reported on this. 

As far as true COVID hospitalizations, the rate of unvaccinated people is likely 9 or 10 to 1 (if not greater), but again, the  reporting and data gets tough to find and filter through. 

Vaxxed people can and will still get it, but the huge majority of people that do get it have much lower hospitalization and fatality rates. 

The anti-vax crowd can counter by saying even without the shots there’s only a small chance they will get a serious case. But when enough of them do get a serious case, they can clog up the hospitals. 

As far as I am concerned, case totals have always been a don’t care. That doesn’t really tell the story. Hospitalizations and fatalities numbers are what should be getting reported, and those numbers have always been hard to come by. 

 

[jamny]

 Hospitalizations and fatalities numbers are what should be getting reported, and those numbers have always been hard to come by. 

That's the reason I started this thread. There are so many opinions and changing of rules but it's really hard to just trust the CDC and WHO because there's still so many unanswered questions because accurate stats aren't readily available. We're just supposed to trust, not verify.

 

[Terminalxylem]

4. How can I trigger loss of smell and taste to lose weight while not getting Covid?

Cocaine and scalding coffee.

 

[Terminalxylem]

How about a list of comorbidities that were more susceptible to serious illness and those that posed no real threat.

CDC has a good summary, with info on the relative risks, if you’re willing to get into the weeds and look at linked datasets.

But people will still find a way to poo-poo them.

ETA Poo-poo risk factors, not the CDC itself (that’s a whole ‘nother issue). For example, people repeatedly make inaccurate claims about BMI’s utility, underestimate at-risk alcohol consumption, etc.

 

[Cjw_55106]

CDC has a good summary, with info on the relative risks, if you’re willing to get into the weeds and looked at linked datasets.

But people will still find a way to poo-poo them.

I’m not sure why. The CDC has been a bastion of good news and honesty this entire time.

 

[Terminalxylem]

That's the reason I started this thread. There are so many opinions and changing of rules but it's really hard to just trust the CDC and WHO because there's still so many unanswered questions because accurate stats aren't readily available. We're just supposed to trust, not verify.

Fair criticism, but our sorta free-market approach to healthcare makes universal databases of things like hospital beds, staffing and functional reserve problematic. Mortality data has other issues, like accounting for inconsistent access to testing and undiagnosed asymptomatic/minimally symptomatic infection.

Furthermore, the lay public has little background in statistics, epidemiology and SOP for healthcare facilities. After nearly two years, it’s still unrealistic to expect non-experts to learn a fraction of those complex topics. Even if the data is available, it’s usually imperfect, fluid, and easily misinterpreted. As an example, look no further than VAERS.

We’d all do better to trust people who devote their careers to studying and controlling infections. While they can make mistakes as well, the prevailing opinion of infectious disease practitioners, public health officials and workers caring for hospitalized covid patients should carry a lot more weight than politicians, hospital administrators, and mixed martial artists. Economists and educators also figure into that equation somewhere. But ultimately pandemics should be managed by those who know stuff about infections, with input from many other disciplines. 

Aside from a few topics, like masks and thresholds for enacting/removing restrictions, I feel like the actual experts have been pretty consistent in their messaging throughout an evolving pandemic. The problem is seldom enough information, rather, it’s non-experts ignoring their advice in favor of alternative opinions from less qualified individuals. Unsurprisingly, these alt-experts often promote simplistic strategies which require minimal personal effort and inconvenience. No amount of data will undue our human tendency towards confirmation bias and maintaining the status quo.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’m not sure why. The CDC has been a bastion of good news and honesty this entire time.

We shouldn’t care if the news is good or not. Accuracy is all that matters.

I know it’s become popular to trash the CDC, but there’s nothing wrong with the primary data they reference in their discussion of high risk conditions. Have you read it?  Where do you suggest one find a summary for what constitutes risk for disease progression?

 

[Cjw_55106]

We shouldn’t care if the news is good or not. Accuracy is all that matters.

I know it’s become popular to trash the CDC, but there’s nothing wrong with the primary data they reference in their discussion of high risk conditions. Have you read it?  Where do you suggest one find a summary for what constitutes risk for disease progression?

When I said good news, I wasn’t referring to happy or positive. I was referring to accurate and believable. If you think they have done a good job during this pandemic, nothing I can say will change your mind.

 

[Terminalxylem]

When I said good news, I wasn’t referring to happy or positive. I was referring to accurate and believable. If you think they have done a good job during this pandemic, nothing I can say will change your mind.

They haven’t been perfect, with several bad missteps along the way. But who has been better?

Where do you obtain accurate/believable pandemic info? 

 

[The Commish]

That's the reason I started this thread. There are so many opinions and changing of rules but it's really hard to just trust the CDC and WHO because there's still so many unanswered questions because accurate stats aren't readily available. We're just supposed to trust, not verify.

I feel pretty comfortable following the Johns Hopkins site for deaths and hospitalizations if thats what youre primarily concerned about. 

 

[jamny]

I feel pretty comfortable following the Johns Hopkins site for deaths and hospitalizations if thats what youre primarily concerned about. 

It's not what they have but what they don't have. Look at my OP. Can either of those be answered? I think it would be informative if they could.

 

[[icon]]

This is going swimmingly 

 

[Terminalxylem]

It's not what they have but what they don't have. Look at my OP. Can either of those be answered? I think it would be informative if they could.

Your first question can’t be answered, as we’d need universal surveillance of infection status throughout the pandemic to know. 

It’s too early in our omicron wave to answer your second question definitively, and there is a lot of state-to-state variation. Check back at the end of January. Judging from other countries, it appears omicron’s CFR is lower than prior strains.

Hospitalization rate is roughly half that of delta, but it’s more than twice as contagious. So it’s not time to declare the pandemic over, or covid-19 equivalent to a cold.

 

[jamny]

Your first question can’t be answered, as we’d need universal surveillance of infection status throughout the pandemic to know. 

It’s too early in our omicron wave to answer your second question definitively, and there is a lot of state-to-state variation. Check back at the end of January. Judging from other countries, it appears omicron’s CFR is lower than prior strains.

Hospitalization rate is roughly half that of delta, but it’s more than twice as contagious. So it’s not time to declare the pandemic over, or covid-19 equivalent to a cold.

As I said, some questions might be impossible to ever answer unfortunately.

They confirmed the first omicron death but now that one has some questions surrounding it. But how many since? None? I can't find another omicron confirmed death. No way that's possible but what is the answer?

This has nothing to do with declaring the pandemic over or comparing it to a cold. Its about the lack of searchable information. Nothing more.

 

[Terminalxylem]

As I said, some questions might be impossible to ever answer unfortunately.

They confirmed the first omicron death but now that one has some questions surrounding it. But how many since? None? I can't find another omicron confirmed death. No way that's possible but what is the answer?

This has nothing to do with declaring the pandemic over or comparing it to a cold. Its about the lack of searchable information. Nothing more.

Sorry, I wasn’t accusing you of declaring the pandemic over. But other people are, so it needs to be emphasized: even if omicron is less severe, it’s not inconsequential.

 

[Lion to myself]

It's obviously very difficult to track all the cases in the US and around the world, so there are questions that we will probably never get answers to. It's probably impossible in many cases. I do wish, with all the money spent to battle the virus, that there was more searchable information available. Maybe there are answers to some of your questions and someone else can provide it.

What questions do you have regarding Covid that you wish there was an answer to?

1 - How many people were hospitalized or died from reinfection without a vaccine?

2 - How many people have died from Omicron in the US?

There are two really good Joe Rogan podcasts that discuss the questions above but more importantly address why it’s so hard to get info. Episode #1747 Dr. Peter A. McCullough and Episode #1757 Dr. Robert Malone.
 

 

[Terminalxylem]

There are two really good Joe Rogan podcasts that discuss the questions above but more importantly address why it’s so hard to get info. Episode #1747 Dr. Peter A. McCullough and Episode #1757 Dr. Robert Malone.

Sigh.

 

[Lion to myself]

Sigh.

 
So you listened to both podcasts?

 

[chet]

I want to know why vaccinations are being pushed and therapeutics are being ignored.  I am fully vaxxed and boosted but I have serious questions after watching most of the recent Joe Rogan interview of Robert Malone.  Malone has impeccable credentials and is very credible and is one of the MRNA vaccine inventors.  He claims, among other things, that the FDA rushed approval of MRNA vaccines without proper safety studies especially among children.  For this, he has had his character assassinated and his message de-platformed.  I find this very strange and I am in no way a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Terminalxylem]

 So you listened to both podcasts?

No. One mind-numbing JRE was all I needed to realize better use of my time.

But I’m familiar with both those guests, and the conspiratorial misinformation they disseminate. I also realize they had scientific credibility at some point in their careers, and appeal to many disenchanted with the mainstream “narrative”.

 

[chet]

Sigh.

What's the issue listening to these doctors?  Please be specific in your criticism.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I want to know why vaccinations are being pushed and therapeutics are being ignored.  I am fully vaxxed and boosted but I have serious questions after watching most of the recent Joe Rogan interview of Robert Malone.  Malone has impeccable credentials and is very credible and is one of the MRNA vaccine inventors.  He claims, among other things, that the FDA rushed approval of MRNA vaccines without proper safety studies especially among children.  For this, he has had his character assassinated and his message de-platformed.  I find this very strange and I am in no way a conspiracy theorist.

Historically, viral diseases are best managed with vaccines. That’s not to say therapeutics can’t work, but the efficacy of antivirals outside of HIV and Hep C isn’t great. Immunomodulatory stuff has even less of a track record. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I want to know why vaccinations are being pushed and therapeutics are being ignored.  I am fully vaxxed and boosted but I have serious questions after watching most of the recent Joe Rogan interview of Robert Malone.  Malone has impeccable credentials and is very credible and is one of the MRNA vaccine inventors.  He claims, among other things, that the FDA rushed approval of MRNA vaccines without proper safety studies especially among children.  For this, he has had his character assassinated and his message de-platformed.  I find this very strange and I am in no way a conspiracy theorist.

As for the therapeutics, most of the ones pushed on social media are unconfirmed in credible lab studies. (Ivermectin, heavy vitamin doses, etc.) The few new therapeutic medicines have marginal benefit thus far and seem to be expensive and in short supply, so while they may offer hope for the future, they're not really a viable solution at this time.

 

[chet]

No. One mind-numbing JRE was all I needed to realize better use of my time.

But I’m familiar with both those guests, and the conspiratorial misinformation they disseminate. I also realize they had scientific credibility at some point in their careers, and appeal to many disenchanted with the mainstream “narrative”.

What "conspiratorial misinformation" are they disseminating? Dismissing them without even watching the podcasts seems very shortsighted. I admit, I haven't watched the Peter McCullough interview.  Malone presented at the World COVID conference in September along with a friend of mine.

 

[Lion to myself]

I want to know why vaccinations are being pushed and therapeutics are being ignored.  I am fully vaxxed and boosted but I have serious questions after watching most of the recent Joe Rogan interview of Robert Malone.  Malone has impeccable credentials and is very credible and is one of the MRNA vaccine inventors.  He claims, among other things, that the FDA rushed approval of MRNA vaccines without proper safety studies especially among children.  For this, he has had his character assassinated and his message de-platformed.  I find this very strange and I am in no way a conspiracy theorist.

If you haven’t please listen to the other podcast I posted.  I couldn’t agree with you more.  Its very odd how these two Drs are being black balled, even if you disagree with them you should not want them silenced.  I think it would be really hard to listen to these two Dr and come away that they are scum bags trying to thrash the vaccine.  I encourage people to listen and judge for yourself. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

What's the issue listening to these doctors?  Please be specific in your criticism.

It’s exhausting to debunk the unending stream of misinformation spewed by guys like this. I’ve debunked enough already (including theories vomited by these two). A couple more multi-hour podcasts featuring known conspiracists and a pseudo-intellectual celebrity host simply isn’t worth my time. 

@-fish-may be up to the task. And there’s a video featuring Zubin Damania that is a good critique of McCullough in one of LawFitz’ antivax threads.

 

[chet]

Historically, viral diseases are best managed with vaccines. That’s not to say therapeutics can’t work, but the efficacy of antivirals outside of HIV and Hep C isn’t great. Immunomodulatory stuff has even less of a track record. 

But COVID is a two stage disease with the second immunologic stage being the main cause of the morbidity and mortality in patients.  Re-regulating the body's immune response seems to be key to lowering mortality in critical/severe COVID.  It certainly is the key to helping people with Long COVID.  And therein lies my point--there are approved, cheap therapeutics that can be repurposed to help critical/severe patients but they have been dismissed vigorously by the FDA etc in favor of an approach solely relying on vaccines.  The right approach is to have both vaccines and therapeutics.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

But COVID is a two stage disease with the second immunologic stage being the main cause of the morbidity and mortality in patients.  Re-regulating the body's immune response seems to be key to lowering mortality in critical/severe COVID.  It certainly is the key to helping people with Long COVID.  And therein lies my point--there are approved, cheap therapeutics that can be repurposed to help critical/severe patients but they have been dismissed vigorously by the FDA etc in favor of an approach solely relying on vaccines.  The right approach is to have both vaccines and therapeutics.

which ones?

 

[jamny]

I'll ask again before it gets buried. Why don't we know how many have died from omicron? They made a point of announcing the first person in Texas that died of it but there are questions surrounding it. But assuming it was true, they were able to detect the cause in that case. Why not more? I can't find stats on omicron specific deaths. Why not?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I'll ask again before it gets buried. Why don't we know how many have died from omicron? They made a point of announcing the first person in Texas that died of it but there are questions surrounding it. But assuming it was true, they were able to detect the cause in that case. Why not more? I can't find stats on omicron specific deaths. Why not?

I think the main reason is because the U.S. SUCKS at sequencing data to identify strains. Epidemiologists have been griping about this since last March or so. 

 

[jamny]

How many have died after being reinfected after having a previous infection but without a vaccine?

Zero? Doubtful, but what is it? Wouldn't that be an important number to know?

 

[jamny]

I think the main reason is because the U.S. SUCKS at sequencing data to identify strains. Epidemiologists have been griping about this since last March or so. 

Right. Why is that? Hence this thread.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

If you haven’t please listen to the other podcast I posted.  I couldn’t agree with you more.  Its very odd how these two Drs are being black balled, even if you disagree with them you should not want them silenced.  I think it would be really hard to listen to these two Dr and come away that they are scum bags trying to thrash the vaccine.  I encourage people to listen and judge for yourself. 

Not to speak for @Terminalxylem, but the reason I take very little credence from podcasts, YouTube interviews, etc. is because most of them come off like salesmen, IMO. Fast talking and saying what people want to hear. But when you try to dig into what they are saying, there isn't much substantiating data behind it. And sometimes, it's straight up false information they're peddling. Not all, of course. I'm sure some of them are accurate. But therein lies the problem. Unless they are providing studies, links, etc. to back up what they're saying, well... it's just talk. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Right. Hence this thread.

I don't know how you expect an answer when the data doesn't exist. lol But I do appreciate the question. 

 

[chet]

which ones?

Maraviroc is a CCR5 inhibitor that has been approved for HIV since ~2006.  It just came off of patent.  Ivermectin is an immunomodulator that lowers IL6 and other cytokines.  Doctors prescribing it have been absolutely vilified--some have even had their medical licenses attacked. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

 Dismissing them without even watching the podcasts seems very shortsighted.

We all set limits on the information we consume. I keep up to date with covid primarily through medical journals and direct exposure to infected patients I serve. I’ve seen snippets of both those guys in other formats, and previously watched JRE to have a good idea what’s in store. I have no reason to believe the fundamental strategy for covid management is flawed, nor is there incentive to discredit Malone or McCullough, for anything other than bad science. Why bother?

If there were a fringe guide to fantasy football that required a half a day surfing the dark web, would you take the time to do so? Assume you’re already winning your league.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Maraviroc is a CCR5 inhibitor that has been approved for HIV since ~2006.  It just came off of patent.  Ivermectin is an immunomodulator that lowers IL6 and other cytokines.  Doctors prescribing it have been absolutely vilified--some have even had their medical licenses attacked. 

Can't speak to Maraviroc, as I haven't seen a single study on it (maybe there are some, IDK), but ivermectin has yet to produce a SINGLE large scale study proving it's benefit. Last I saw, there were still one or two ongoing, but the largest one showing any conclusive benefit was removed from publication because they fudged the numbers. The few doctors that I personally have seen "vilified" in social media  was because they were pushing something that had not been proven to show benefit other than anecdotal evidence, as we know is sometimes JUST anecdote.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

But COVID is a two stage disease with the second immunologic stage being the main cause of the morbidity and mortality in patients.  Re-regulating the body's immune response seems to be key to lowering mortality in critical/severe COVID.  It certainly is the key to helping people with Long COVID.  And therein lies my point--there are approved, cheap therapeutics that can be repurposed to help critical/severe patients but they have been dismissed vigorously by the FDA etc in favor of an approach solely relying on vaccines.  The right approach is to have both vaccines and therapeutics.

Do you realize there are other infections with immunologic sequelae, some with biphasic illness analogous to covid-19? While it sounds good on paper, immunotherapy hasn’t been a mainstay of treating many infections. That's not to say there is no role for novel or repurposed therapies, and many are being investigated. The NIH has a nice summary of many of them here.

And I don’t think the FDA is quashing any cheap, effective immunotherapy. Heck, the mainstay of treating severe covid is dexamethasone.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Can't speak to Maraviroc, as I haven't seen a single study on it (maybe there are some, IDK), but ivermectin has yet to produce a SINGLE large scale study proving it's benefit. Last I saw, there were still one or two ongoing, but the largest one showing any conclusive benefit was removed from publication because they fudged the numbers. The few doctors that I personally have seen "vilified" in social media  was because they were pushing something that had not been proven to show benefit other than anecdotal evidence, as we know is sometimes JUST anecdote.  

You are correct. The data are flawed/inconclusive, or nearly nonexistent to endorse either of those drugs.

 

[chet]

We all set limits on the information we consume. I keep up to date with covid primarily through medical journals and direct exposure to infected patients I serve. I’ve seen snippets of both those guys in other formats, and previously watched JRE to have a good idea what’s in store. I have no reason to believe the fundamental strategy for covid management is flawed, nor is there incentive to discredit Malone or McCullough, for anything other than bad science. Why bother?

If there were a fringe guide to fantasy football that required a half a day surfing the dark web, would you take the time to do so? Assume you’re already winning your league.

I applaud you for the work you do and the patients you serve.  I agree there are limits to absorbing information and I am not faulting you for not addressing each and and every podcast that is released.  However, I watched the first two hours of the Malone podcast and as I said above, he is impeccably credentialed and comes off as being very credible.  He brings up many points about inadequate safety studies and motivations for hospitals that really make me wonder what's going on here. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

I'll ask again before it gets buried. Why don't we know how many have died from omicron? They made a point of announcing the first person in Texas that died of it but there are questions surrounding it. But assuming it was true, they were able to detect the cause in that case. Why not more? I can't find stats on omicron specific deaths. Why not?

We’re already having trouble keeping up with demand for testing, and strain typing isn’t part of routine clinical practice, as it doesn’t change management one iota. Plus it costs money.

What do you hope to gain, personally and collectively, from more extensive data on omicron’s fatality rate?