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Racist rancher,feds at a standoff.Drone strike looming! (1 Viewer)

Ok I read it, and frankly I find it shocking:

The United States and Mexico signed the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848. In that treaty, Mexico ceded land that includes the present-day state of Nevada to the United States. 9 Stat. 922 (1848); see also Sparrow v. Strong, 70 U.S. (3 Wall.) 97, 104, 18 L.Ed. 49 (1865) ("The Territory, of which Nevada is a part, was acquired by Treaty."). The language of the Treaty itself refers to the land ceded by Mexico to the United States as "territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States." 9 Stat. 922, 929 (1848). Courts in the United States have uniformly found that title to the land first passed to the United States through the Treaty. See, e.g., United States v. California, 436 U.S. 32, 34 n. 3, 98 S.Ct. 1662, 1663 n. 3, 56 L.Ed.2d 94 (1978) (stating that, under the Treaty, "all nongranted lands previously held by the Government of Mexico passed into the federal public domain"); Cappaert v. United States, 426 U.S. 128, 131, 96 S.Ct. 2062, 2066, 48 L.Ed.2d 523 (1976) (stating that a limestone cavern located in Nevada is "situated on land owned by the United States since the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848").

The claim by Gardners that it is the duty of the United States to hold public lands in trust for the formation of future states is founded on a case dealing with land acquired by the United States from the thirteen original states. In that case, Pollard's Lessee v. Hagan, 44 U.S. (3 How.) 212, 11 L.Ed. 565 (1845), the Supreme Court discussed the extent of the United States' authority over lands ceded to it from Virginia and Georgia to discharge debt incurred by those states during the Revolutionary War. The Court stated that the United States held this land 1318*1318 in trust for the establishment of future states. Id. 44 U.S. (3 How.) at 222. Once those new states were established, the United States' authority over the land would cease. Id. at 221-23. This decision was based on the terms of the cessions of the land from Virginia and Georgia to the United States. Before becoming a state, however, Nevada had no independent claim to sovereignty, unlike the original thirteen states. Therefore, the same reasoning is not applicable to this case, in which the federal government was the initial owner of the land from which the state of Nevada was later carved.

Thus, as the United States has held title to the unappropriated public lands in Nevada since Mexico ceded the land to the United States in 1848, the land is the property of the United States. The United States Constitution provides in the Property Clause that Congress has the power "to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States." U.S. Const. art. IV, § 3, cl. 2. The Supreme Court has consistently recognized the expansiveness of this power, stating that "[t]he power over the public land thus entrusted to Congress is without limitations." Kleppe v. New Mexico, 426 U.S. 529, 539, 96 S.Ct. 2285, 2291, 49 L.Ed.2d 34 (1976); United States v. San Francisco, 310 U.S. 16, 29, 60 S.Ct. 749, 756, 84 L.Ed. 1050 (1940). See also Alabama v. Texas, 347 U.S. 272, 273, 74 S.Ct. 481, 481-82, 98 L.Ed. 689 (1954); United States v. California, 332 U.S. 19, 27, 67 S.Ct. 1658, 1662-63, 91 L.Ed. 1889 (1947); Gibson v. Chouteau, 80 U.S. (13 Wall.) 92, 99, 20 L.Ed. 534 (1871); United States v. Gratiot, 39 U.S. (14 Pet.) 526, 537, 10 L.Ed. 573 (1840). Moreover, the Supreme Court has noted that Congress "may deal with [its] lands precisely as an ordinary individual may deal with his farming property. It may sell or withhold them from sale." Light v. United States, 220 U.S. 523, 536, 31 S.Ct. 485, 488, 55 L.Ed. 570 (1911) (internal quotation marks and citation omitted). Indeed, the establishment of a forest reserve by Congress is a "right[] incident to proprietorship, to say nothing of the power of the United States as a sovereign over the property belonging to it." Id. at 537, 31 S.Ct. at 488.

The United States, then, was not required to hold the public lands in Nevada in trust for the establishment of future states. Rather, under the Property Clause, the United States can administer its federal lands any way it chooses, including the establishment of a national forest reserve.
This means the Feds own the entirety of all land not under title that essentially includes almost all of the Mountain and Pacific time zones.

They cannot become owners of land which was not previously owned. Sovereignity is not ownership.

No, just no.

:bs: :sadbanana: :no:
right, this is why folks from the west don't really look too fondly on bureaucrats in Washington controlling such big areas. It is true that the feds own most of the mountain time zone.

interesting side note- if you look at this map, you see a weird gradient thru Nevada and Wyoming. The gov't ceded lots of land along the railroads in the 1860's to the railroaders - Union Pacific and others - in a checkerboard manner within a certain distance from the tracks as an incentive to build the railroads.
Yeah I see that, big squiggly swath right through the heart of the Rockies.

Nice slice of America they got themselves there.
how do you think Harry Reid got so rich in real estate deals?

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
Well in the cases that were posted there were a couple examples where things worked differently. One was the original 13 colonies, the other was Oregon (which came from the UK, forgot about that).

It seems to me the land was free and unclaimed, basically newly discovered (aside from the Indians). So if it was unowned at the time Mexico controlled it and Spain before then, it was still unowned when the US got it. Treaties affect sovereignty, they don't change or create ownership where none existed before.

 
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If only the feds worried about their Constitutional duties to protect our borders from illegals as much as they do protecting our land from citizens.

 
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It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
Well in the cases that were posted there were a couple examples where things worked differently. One was the original 13 colonies, the other was Oregon (which came from the UK, forgot about that).

It seems to me the land was free and unclaimed, basically newly discovered (aside from the Indians). So if it was unowned at the time Mexico controlled it and Spain before then, it was still unowned when the US got it. Treaties affect sovereignty, they don't change or create ownership where none existed before.
it wasn't though. Prior to the war, I'd assume the land was owned by the Mexican gov't and the king of Spain. I'm pretty sure the 13 colonies were all originally owned by the British crown, who gave titles to the colonies to various governors or royalty or whomever.

also, it appears that in the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, we (i.e. US Gov't) paid $15m for land as well as recognized property rights of this already living in the claimed territory.

 
If only the feds worried about their Constitutional duties to protect our borders from illegals as much as they do protecting our land from citizens.
Good thing President Obama has been doing his job, and is on pace to deport the most illegals in history. If we could get Congress to pass laws that would actually penalize those that hire them, then it would stop. But good luck with that.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
Well in the cases that were posted there were a couple examples where things worked differently. One was the original 13 colonies, the other was Oregon (which came from the UK, forgot about that).

It seems to me the land was free and unclaimed, basically newly discovered (aside from the Indians). So if it was unowned at the time Mexico controlled it and Spain before then, it was still unowned when the US got it. Treaties affect sovereignty, they don't change or create ownership where none existed before.
it wasn't though. Prior to the war, I'd assume the land was owned by the Mexican gov't and the king of Spain. I'm pretty sure the 13 colonies were all originally owned by the British crown, who gave titles to the colonies to various governors or royalty or whomever.

also, it appears that in the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, we (i.e. US Gov't) paid $15m for land as well as recognized property rights of this already living in the claimed territory.
That's a good point. Good stuff, interesting.

I think the original 13, and maybe some other states, might have been different though, but that's a different issue.

 
Further I think guns in the hands of citizens give them the courage to stand up and forces the agents of the government to decide if they're going to fire on their fellow citizens.
In this case guns in the hands of citizens primarily gave people an opportunity to pose for cameras and impress others online. Fantasy role-playing with pictures and videos.

But all it takes is one nut for all hell to break loose. In a group that large, was there one nut? Too much of a chance to take, which is why the government backed off. This isn't something to kill over.
First I was mostly responding to the general line of thought that physical resistance to the government is hopeless. It's not.Second It only takes one nut on either side. Sounds like the protesters were threaten by the BLM agents and maintained a slow advance in the face of those threats.
Let me get this right: the protestors advanced because they felt threatened?
No they continued forward despite being threatened.
 
I've not cared for these cow farmer SOB's since one shot and killed my dog for playing in his field. Less than a week before his cows had gotten out and were all in my yard and I helped him put them back. I hope the government takes his cattle and runs him off his land.

 
Further I think guns in the hands of citizens give them the courage to stand up and forces the agents of the government to decide if they're going to fire on their fellow citizens.
In this case guns in the hands of citizens primarily gave people an opportunity to pose for cameras and impress others online. Fantasy role-playing with pictures and videos.

But all it takes is one nut for all hell to break loose. In a group that large, was there one nut? Too much of a chance to take, which is why the government backed off. This isn't something to kill over.
First I was mostly responding to the general line of thought that physical resistance to the government is hopeless. It's not.Second It only takes one nut on either side. Sounds like the protesters were threaten by the BLM agents and maintained a slow advance in the face of those threats.
Let me get this right: the protestors advanced because they felt threatened?
No they continued forward despite being threatened.
So the ones moving forward were not the aggressors. :lmao:

 
I'm trying to figure out what is worse, Bundy not paying his $1 million in grazing fees, or Harry Reid's $5 million dollar profit in shady land deals. Maybe they could send Harry over to the Bundy Ranch, and see what happens.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
Well in the cases that were posted there were a couple examples where things worked differently. One was the original 13 colonies, the other was Oregon (which came from the UK, forgot about that).

It seems to me the land was free and unclaimed, basically newly discovered (aside from the Indians). So if it was unowned at the time Mexico controlled it and Spain before then, it was still unowned when the US got it. Treaties affect sovereignty, they don't change or create ownership where none existed before.
I have not followed this whole argument - but this made me laugh out loud.

So, if I understand your position here - any land not owned by white europeans is "free and unclaimed", and despite the fact that people were living here it was "newly discovered"? How mighty white of you.

And from a broader perspective - nobody "owns" land - those property rights are created by a sovereignty. As a sovereign nation, the United States controls all of the land within its borders - all of which were established via treaty and/or invasion/war. The US has no "divine" right to any of its territory. Anyone can claim "ownership" of land so long as they can defend it from outsiders. For the US - that means protecting its borders, for individuals in the US, it means having legal title, granted by the US, or its states, to the land.

 
Further I think guns in the hands of citizens give them the courage to stand up and forces the agents of the government to decide if they're going to fire on their fellow citizens.
In this case guns in the hands of citizens primarily gave people an opportunity to pose for cameras and impress others online. Fantasy role-playing with pictures and videos.

But all it takes is one nut for all hell to break loose. In a group that large, was there one nut? Too much of a chance to take, which is why the government backed off. This isn't something to kill over.
First I was mostly responding to the general line of thought that physical resistance to the government is hopeless. It's not.Second It only takes one nut on either side. Sounds like the protesters were threaten by the BLM agents and maintained a slow advance in the face of those threats.
Let me get this right: the protestors advanced because they felt threatened?
No they continued forward despite being threatened.
So the ones moving forward were not the aggressors. :lmao:
No they clearly were being aggressive. Doesn't mean they weren't threatened. Point being they didn't "go nuts " and fire weapons in the face of the threats from the BLM guys.
 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.

 
They had a plan to use women as human shields. No, they're not nuts. Just normal, freedom-loving folks like you and me.
“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” Mack said in a Fox News clip pulled by The Blaze. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/bundy-ranch-women-human-shield?utm_content=buffer584b4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack revealed on Monday that he and other organizers who traveled to Clark County, Nev., to support Cliven Bundy during his land dispute with the feds planned to put women on the front lines in case the “rogue federal officers” started shooting.
Mack apparently identifies with the Tea Party and claims to have spoken at numerous rallies. He also appeared on MSNBC’s “Hardball” with host Chris Matthews to promote the movement.

Mack was elected as Graham County sheriff in 1988 and he served two terms until 1997. The former sheriff also reportedly fought against the so-called “Brady Bill,” a 1993 gun control law that instituted federal background checks on firearms purchasers in the United States.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/former-arizona-sheriff-reveals-chilling-strategy-to-put-women-up-at-the-front-during-bundy-ranch-standoff/

 
No they clearly were being aggressive. Doesn't mean they weren't threatened. Point being they didn't "go nuts " and fire weapons in the face of the threats from the BLM guys.
So they exercised the same restraint (not firing) as the BLM guys.

While they advanced on the BLM guys.

The BLM made the right move withdrawing. There's more than a miniscule chance one nut would have gone off.

 
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It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
It seems that the land is managed in way that best serves Harry Reid and his buddies....

 
Rove is explaining US history in terms of Harry Reid, who apparently was one of the founding fathers and lives eternally. :lmao:

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
It seems that the land is managed in way that best serves Harry Reid and his buddies....
Only if you have no idea how FLPMA works and how BLM operates and believe chain emails and facebook posts from bitter right wing nutjobs over actual facts.

 
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I for one hope that this isn't the last we hear of this. The pictures alone are priceless.
They are. So is the scrambling to find scraps of "history" to prove wacko points. This needs to be a series, 8 episodes minimum. Party Out West.
Wonderful idea. Would give the Bundy some funds to keep on fighting. Btw, thanks for fighting the good fight in this thread and keep this one alive.

 
I for one hope that this isn't the last we hear of this. The pictures alone are priceless.
They are. So is the scrambling to find scraps of "history" to prove wacko points. This needs to be a series, 8 episodes minimum. Party Out West.
Wonderful idea. Would give the Bundy some funds to keep on fighting. Btw, thanks for fighting the good fight in this thread and keep this one alive.
So who can we get to star in the Party Out West miniseries? I'm thinking there has to be a place for Victoria Jackson.

 
No they clearly were being aggressive. Doesn't mean they weren't threatened. Point being they didn't "go nuts " and fire weapons in the face of the threats from the BLM guys.
So they exercised the same restraint (not firing) as the BLM guys.

While they advanced on the BLM guys.

The BLM made the right move withdrawing. There's more than a miniscule chance one nut would have gone off.
yes we all know that federal law enforcement agents never do anything rash.
 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
Does the clause mention saving the turtles?

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
Does the clause mention saving the turtles?
No. Great point.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
Does the clause mention saving the turtles?
No... that happened via democracy -- where people elect representatives who then pass laws on their behalf. Also in the Constitution.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
It seems that the land is managed in way that best serves Harry Reid and his buddies....
Only if you have no idea how FLPMA works and how BLM operates and believe chain emails and facebook posts from bitter right wing nutjobs over actual facts.
Care to explain how the tortoises are not a concern for business deals involving Harry Reid and associates?

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
Does the clause mention saving the turtles?
No... that happened via democracy -- where people elect representatives who then pass laws on their behalf. Also in the Constitution.
Whatever, socialist. If it's not in the text of the Constitution Joe T and I say it doesn't count.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
It seems that the land is managed in way that best serves Harry Reid and his buddies....
Only if you have no idea how FLPMA works and how BLM operates and believe chain emails and facebook posts from bitter right wing nutjobs over actual facts.
Care to explain how the tortoises are not a concern for business deals involving Harry Reid and associates?
Do I care to explain how your nutjob conspiracy theory isn't somehow at the bottom of a federal effort to enforce compliance with duly enacted laws and regulations? Not really. I'd say that burden's on you and the other posters at blaze.com.

 
It was not unusual for this country to acquire land by treaty. I don't know why that country acquiring such land makes you believe they're depriving someone of it.
It is not the function of our government to acquire land and power. It's purpose is to serve the people.
Being a little melodramatic here.
And also really really wrong. There's literally a clause in the Constitution that contemplates federal land ownership and management. And the Federal Land Policy and Management Act dictates that federal land be managed in a way that best serves the people.

I can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. It's hilarious.
It seems that the land is managed in way that best serves Harry Reid and his buddies....
Only if you have no idea how FLPMA works and how BLM operates and believe chain emails and facebook posts from bitter right wing nutjobs over actual facts.
Care to explain how the tortoises are not a concern for business deals involving Harry Reid and associates?
Do I care to explain how your nutjob conspiracy theory isn't somehow at the bottom of a federal effort to enforce compliance with duly enacted laws and regulations? Not really. I'd say that burden's on you and the other posters at blaze.com.
whether you go KooK or KrooK, there are no winners here

 
Joe T said:
When will you people stop thinking about a persons right to make a living and think more about saving the turtles?
Pretty much exactly at the point when his efforts to make a living take him into property that doesn't belong to him and he refuses to pay for its use.

If you want to debate conversation efforts vs grazing in this particular region, find yourself a time machine and go back to 1993. That ship sailed a long time ago. All this idiot is doing now is violating federal law and wasting millions of taxpayer dollars.

 
Joe T said:
When will you people stop thinking about a persons right to make a living and think more about saving the turtles?
Yeah, this guy has no right to make a living. That's the court's position.

 
Whenever the next protest is staged, I think somebody should paint about a dozen helicopters black except for white lettering that says "UNITED NATIONS" and then send them flying in. And they could broadcast over loudspeakers, "Attention! Please surrender your firearms!" in a thick foreign accent.

 

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