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:titter:What a great workout week... nice job.
Blood, man. Unbelievable stuff. What the hell happened on those runs? You must've gotten the power of Greyskull or something... I'm blown away how fast you got yourself going there.
EF, I wouldn't say that my overall swim speed is dramatically improving, but my ability to maintain speed is better at the latter stages of a swim, which is what I need for my tri racing (to keep a better overall pace and not be so tired for the remaining legs). The more concentrated effort also has helped to make good technique more 'automatic' for me. Two things that are helping me set a decent pace and then maintain that pace are (a) a full, long arm entry and reach (reaching long, pressing the armpit down, and getting a good 'grab' of the water), and (b) a focused pull, particularly from my midsection down past my trunk as I really push the water past my hips. Along with this, I just try and keep a rhythmic rotation from side to side. It's not about the kick; it's not about a faster speed/cadence. I tend to find that when I increase cadence, I don't do (a) and (b) as well, I take more strokes, and don't go any faster (and probably slow a bit 'cause I end up just kind of slapping my way along). My 'regular' speed is about a minute per lap. With more pool time and focused training, I can now maintain this pace for 1,500-2,000 yards. I feel it has helped to do longer sets at pace (30-40 laps, or 10-lap repeats), and shorter sets at a quicker pace (stronger, not faster, pull). "IN" before liquors highlights the benefit of counting strokes. I have noticed that my stroke count remains very steady through about 2,000 yards, which is encouraging.I'm now on a morning routine ~ 6:15 or 6:30 am start, and for up to an hour. I'm close enough to go home for lunch and grab a fifteen minute nap.A couple of questions:
- As somebody who has always swum at one speed no matter what I do- is there a method for swimming faster? Higher arm turn-over cadence? More explosive arm-entry? My old drills... never mattered what I did, it was always one speed.
- What time of day do you do your workouts? Before, after or during work?
- What kind of temps pull you back outside for the bike?
First off 45 degrees?! :sissy: Ok- it's been a while since I did any swimming, so reading what you wrote above reminds about all of it. Nice. Right- it's not about the cadence at all... I'm remembering trying to get the arms moving faster and my reach forward would shrink. And I don't kick at all, other than a little flip to help with rotation, not propulsion. The "explosive" thing I wrote above, is exactly what your said there- full, long entry reach while pushing the armpits down.tri-man 47 said:EF, I wouldn't say that my overall swim speed is dramatically improving, but my ability to maintain speed is better at the latter stages of a swim, which is what I need for my tri racing (to keep a better overall pace and not be so tired for the remaining legs). The more concentrated effort also has helped to make good technique more 'automatic' for me. Two things that are helping me set a decent pace and then maintain that pace are (a) a full, long arm entry and reach (reaching long, pressing the armpit down, and getting a good 'grab' of the water), and (b) a focused pull, particularly from my midsection down past my trunk as I really push the water past my hips. Along with this, I just try and keep a rhythmic rotation from side to side. It's not about the kick; it's not about a faster speed/cadence. I tend to find that when I increase cadence, I don't do (a) and (b) as well, I take more strokes, and don't go any faster (and probably slow a bit 'cause I end up just kind of slapping my way along). My 'regular' speed is about a minute per lap. With more pool time and focused training, I can now maintain this pace for 1,500-2,000 yards. I feel it has helped to do longer sets at pace (30-40 laps, or 10-lap repeats), and shorter sets at a quicker pace (stronger, not faster, pull). "IN" before liquors highlights the benefit of counting strokes. I have noticed that my stroke count remains very steady through about 2,000 yards, which is encouraging.I'm now on a morning routine ~ 6:15 or 6:30 am start, and for up to an hour. I'm close enough to go home for lunch and grab a fifteen minute nap.El Floppo said:A couple of questions:
- As somebody who has always swum at one speed no matter what I do- is there a method for swimming faster? Higher arm turn-over cadence? More explosive arm-entry? My old drills... never mattered what I did, it was always one speed.
- What time of day do you do your workouts? Before, after or during work?
- What kind of temps pull you back outside for the bike?
I'm still kind of a wimp about cold weather biking. I'd like to see 45-50 degrees. The problem right now is that the morning chill is still there at that early hour.
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BnB - great job! It's neat to see how you take your skill in biking and are now building your running to supplement that. Congrats!!
So really, I mispoke about having one speed... I've got two: Slow, Slower.
Out of the pool: weight training (3 1/2 years of push-ups, plus reasonably regular with dumbells)In the pool: - doing laps with paddles to ensure proper technique and train with more resistance- little things like feeling the firm push over the final portion of the stroke; sometimes physically brushing a thumb against the hip to ensure a complete stroke close to the body; sometimes consciously feeling the hand exit the water as it even throws off the last bit of water.- in general, I focus on keeping my elbows high (near to the surface) during the stroke, meaning the arm bends as the pull starts and progresses (bit of an "S" motion), which causes me to pull water from slightly under my body (and then on past the hip). So in effect, the front hand entry creates a "channel" of turbulence, then the stroke pulls me forward by pushing water from beneath and along side of me. - my last lap is always a slow lap where I allow my recovery hand to literally drag the fingertips along the water as the arm comes forward. This ensures an efficient motion (but mainly just feels cool to have that control).
Sorry, runners.
Out of the pool: weight training (3 1/2 years of push-ups, plus reasonably regular with dumbells)In the pool: - doing laps with paddles to ensure proper technique and train with more resistance- little things like feeling the firm push over the final portion of the stroke; sometimes physically brushing a thumb against the hip to ensure a complete stroke close to the body; sometimes consciously feeling the hand exit the water as it even throws off the last bit of water.- in general, I focus on keeping my elbows high (near to the surface) during the stroke, meaning the arm bends as the pull starts and progresses (bit of an "S" motion), which causes me to pull water from slightly under my body (and then on past the hip). So in effect, the front hand entry creates a "channel" of turbulence, then the stroke pulls me forward by pushing water from beneath and along side of me. - my last lap is always a slow lap where I allow my recovery hand to literally drag the fingertips along the water as the arm comes forward. This ensures an efficient motion (but mainly just feels cool to have that control).Sorry, runners.
no apologies needed, tri season starts in less than 2 months 
I need all I can get on swimming!
From a shorter distance point of view (which is obviously not where tri-man comes from) it is all about the legs. Just keep up a six kick stroke through your distance and I guarantee a good time.Even from a tri point of view, though, if you are doing a pool tri swim you can gain a huge amount of time with a good turn - you do so many of them they can add up real quick. In open water run straight over the guy in front of you and then push.- As somebody who has always swum at one speed no matter what I do- is there a method for swimming faster? Higher arm turn-over cadence? More explosive arm-entry? My old drills... never mattered what I did, it was always one speed.
Great Race BnB!! You are going to be a beast in these if you can continue to improve your running times! FWIW: a female also took 2nd overall at my duathlon. She's an IronMan/woman; who has done THE Ironman. When she flew past me on the run I was shocked. She is also the one who saved me at my missed turn by screaming at me.
All's looking good Gruecd! Have you started the glucosamine?Six easy pain-free miles on the treadmill this afternoon.
I'm usually the person that people push off of
Awesome Keggers!!! FWIW: if you can run one mile in 7:00 this is what you should be able to run/race other distances! The fact that you were able to do it at the end of a medium length run is even more impressiveI've now moved my long runs to Mondays. Yesterday I did 7 miles in 66:00! The good thing is the last mile I was able to push myself and ran it in 7:00 (averaged about 9:40 the previous 6 miles). I'm super excited after this run and can't wait to do it again!
Oh, and great to hear about everyone's race reports and injury updates!
Not yet. You said 1500 MG glucosamine and 1200 MG chondroitin, right? I don't have a Sam's Club membership, so where should I look to buy it? Anyplace reputable online for similar to the $14.68 price you quoted me?
Great!!! You've pushed through a mental hurdle as well as a physical one ...now you know that you've still got something left in the tank AND that you've got some speed to work with. Keep at it!
Except that a serving = six pills. So a year's supply would cost $160. Correct me if my math is wrong.
You should be able to find it cheapo online. It's really common at this point. Oh... I used to add Fish Oil pills to the Gluc... I have no earthly memory of why I would've done that.Glad to hear you're still going without pain
Yeah- I should've mentioned I am not a swimmer, only a tri-guy. I'm sticking with my 2-beat kick no matter what, so any speed I gain will come from the stroke.And I'm also the guy that gets run over... by at least 2 waves behind meFrom a shorter distance point of view (which is obviously not where tri-man comes from) it is all about the legs. Just keep up a six kick stroke through your distance and I guarantee a good time.Even from a tri point of view, though, if you are doing a pool tri swim you can gain a huge amount of time with a good turn - you do so many of them they can add up real quick. In open water run straight over the guy in front of you and then push.- As somebody who has always swum at one speed no matter what I do- is there a method for swimming faster? Higher arm turn-over cadence? More explosive arm-entry? My old drills... never mattered what I did, it was always one speed.
Thanks! Great stuff there... comments in redOut of the pool: weight training (3 1/2 years of push-ups, plus reasonably regular with dumbells)In the pool:
- doing laps with paddles to ensure proper technique and train with more resistance
- little things like feeling the firm push over the final portion of the stroke; sometimes physically brushing a thumb against the hip to ensure a complete stroke close to the body; sometimes consciously feeling the hand exit the water as it even throws off the last bit of water.
- in general, I focus on keeping my elbows high (near to the surface) during the stroke, during the extension or pull? meaning the arm bends as the pull starts and progresses (bit of an "S" motion), which causes me to pull water from slightly under my body (and then on past the hip). So in effect, the front hand entry creates a "channel" of turbulence, then the stroke pulls me forward by pushing water from beneath and along side of me.
- my last lap is always a slow lap where I allow my recovery hand to literally drag the fingertips along the water as the arm comes forward. This ensures an efficient motion (but mainly just feels cool to have that control). This was exactly the technique I learned in my first tri-swim TNT coached session.
Sorry, runners.
As per the below; they are offered just about everywhere, at very different prices, but you MUST factor in the # of pills required (6 is the most I've seen needed to get to 1,500/1,200)
My guess is that Walmart will most likely have a very similar product and price as they often have mirror products from their wholesale (Sam's). The deal for 6 pills per serving, is not a deal.
Wow, I completely missed the 6 pills part - I just completely read over that part of the description. I just saw the ingredients were the 1,500 and 1,200.Thanks for the heads up.I looked at this a bit, and it looks like the highest strength available is 2 pills/day? I don't see any one pill products out there.As per the below; they are offered just about everywhere, at very different prices, but you MUST factor in the # of pills required (6 is the most I've seen needed to get to 1,500/1,200)
Thanks! Great stuff there... comments in red
Out of the pool: weight training (3 1/2 years of push-ups, plus reasonably regular with dumbells)In the pool:
- doing laps with paddles to ensure proper technique and train with more resistance
- little things like feeling the firm push over the final portion of the stroke; sometimes physically brushing a thumb against the hip to ensure a complete stroke close to the body; sometimes consciously feeling the hand exit the water as it even throws off the last bit of water.
- in general, I focus on keeping my elbows high (near to the surface) during the stroke, during the extension or pull? meaning the arm bends as the pull starts and progresses (bit of an "S" motion), which causes me to pull water from slightly under my body (and then on past the hip). So in effect, the front hand entry creates a "channel" of turbulence, then the stroke pulls me forward by pushing water from beneath and along side of me.
- my last lap is always a slow lap where I allow my recovery hand to literally drag the fingertips along the water as the arm comes forward. This ensures an efficient motion (but mainly just feels cool to have that control). This was exactly the technique I learned in my first tri-swim TNT coached session.
Sorry, runners.
These are all GREAT reminders. The only thing I'd add is that you want to spend as much time as you can with one shoulder low, and the other high; and as little time as you can with your shoulders parallel to the water = you want to look like this "|" and not like this "__" on the water. You do this by using your core to rotate through the stroke (= major premise of total immersion swimming). I'll also second the minimization of a kick, to save yourself for the bike/run; and to be used just for reducing drag, and increasing balance.
I wasn't being serious. For long distances a 6 beat kick is asking to drown half way in. And as far as getting run over, I'm sure that is just humility talking. This is the FFA, after all.Yeah- I should've mentioned I am not a swimmer, only a tri-guy. I'm sticking with my 2-beat kick no matter what, so any speed I gain will come from the stroke.And I'm also the guy that gets run over... by at least 2 waves behind meFrom a shorter distance point of view (which is obviously not where tri-man comes from) it is all about the legs. Just keep up a six kick stroke through your distance and I guarantee a good time.Even from a tri point of view, though, if you are doing a pool tri swim you can gain a huge amount of time with a good turn - you do so many of them they can add up real quick. In open water run straight over the guy in front of you and then push.- As somebody who has always swum at one speed no matter what I do- is there a method for swimming faster? Higher arm turn-over cadence? More explosive arm-entry? My old drills... never mattered what I did, it was always one speed.
EF - The high elbow is during my pull ...instead of keeping a rather straight arm that tries to pull down low in the water, a high elbow allows me to pull with an arm that's nearer the surface and pull water closer to my body. I'm still very much a middle-of-the-pack swimmer, but as I watch other swimmers in the pool, I see the slow folk with a generally lazy pull - their arms kind of make big circles, swinging high during the recovery and looping down low during the pull. It's not a focused stroke. Sand, if you've got a competitive swimming/training background, I'd like to hear your comments and descriptions on technique. I can babble on and on, but it doesn't mean I really know anything (as I sure many here will attest).I'd be really curious to hear more about how you're developing your pull.
Thanks! Great stuff there... comments in red- doing laps with paddles to ensure proper technique and train with more resistance
- little things like feeling the firm push over the final portion of the stroke; sometimes physically brushing a thumb against the hip to ensure a complete stroke close to the body; sometimes consciously feeling the hand exit the water as it even throws off the last bit of water.
- in general, I focus on keeping my elbows high (near to the surface) during the stroke, during the extension or pull? meaning the arm bends as the pull starts and progresses (bit of an "S" motion), which causes me to pull water from slightly under my body (and then on past the hip). So in effect, the front hand entry creates a "channel" of turbulence, then the stroke pulls me forward by pushing water from beneath and along side of me.
- my last lap is always a slow lap where I allow my recovery hand to literally drag the fingertips along the water as the arm comes forward. This ensures an efficient motion (but mainly just feels cool to have that control). This was exactly the technique I learned in my first tri-swim TNT coached session.
Sorry, runners.
I have no experience in long distance swimming. When I competed it was sprints. I did (as an old geezer) go out last summer and swim a 50 free in ~29 seconds. So I can still get there pretty good, just don't ask me to do 100. 
What I can say is that in a pool tri swim (I know they have those) you can make huge time with good flip turns.
Subtle I ain't with my stroke- especially the pull. Looking forward to seeing whatever you dig up.
As far as training for a good arm stroke there are a couple things you can work on. Remember that triceps are by far the most used muscle in a good stroke. In the weight room make sure to work those - it will pay off. Also, there are some subtleties to the arm stroke that are there to keep as much water trapped as possible through the entire stroke for maximum propulsion (this applies to long and short distance). I'll see if I can find a good video or set of images to show that.
eta: yeah- I've heard of pool tris... there's one here in Central Park (or at least, used to be one). I've never done one, or plan on ever doing one- but even my tri-coaches emphasized getting a good push off the wall during training just to get yourself long and gliding in the water... does that sound right?
The key really is starting the turn in the right spot so that your feet are right there to push off. There a very nice sweet spot that allows for a good push. In a tri it isn't as important as in a sprint hitting a quick roll. Just getting your feet on the wall at the right distance every time and getting a good push is a huge advantage. After a good push get yourself gliding as good as you can before you come up - you have much less resistance under the water than on top.Subtle I ain't with my stroke- especially the pull. Looking forward to seeing whatever you dig up.
As far as training for a good arm stroke there are a couple things you can work on. Remember that triceps are by far the most used muscle in a good stroke. In the weight room make sure to work those - it will pay off. Also, there are some subtleties to the arm stroke that are there to keep as much water trapped as possible through the entire stroke for maximum propulsion (this applies to long and short distance). I'll see if I can find a good video or set of images to show that.
Big time rookie here, but I read just the opposite in Triathlete. I'll try and dig it up when I get a chance, but the basic advice was to do just a light pull on the wall to turn your body and only use a moderate push off to try and get back on "pace" to better simulate a continuation of the OW swim. For stroke technique, I need visual versus written to help. YouTube has a ton of good stuff. Every three swims or so I'll watch technique right before heading to the pool. I posted a handful a while back and will try and find that too, gotta head to work right now.
HTFU
This was the EXACT run I had planned on doing this morninggruecd said:
Instead I hit snooze 1x, and turned it into a 5 mile run, with the middle three at 6:55 pace. Great to hear that your knee is hanging in there :(
Yeah, I was planning on doing mine this morning, too, but it didn't happen. It makes it really hard to get out of bed in the morning when I know that my schedule for that particular day gives me the option of doing it later. Regardless, congrats on a great run!This was the EXACT run I had planned on doing this morninggruecd said:
I have my half marathon next weekend (the 18th), and depending on how that goes, I still haven't entirely ruled out the possibility of running the full marathon in Green Bay on May 17. But unless I really believe that I can BQ, I'm going to stick with the half. I'd need to run 1:32 or better in Oshkosh, and then I'd need to have successful 16- and 18-mile runs the following two weekends to even consider doing it. Not looking especially likely at this point.
I hear ya about not pushing off- ie: to maintain as much of the typical stroke as possible. When I had distance workouts I'd avoid pushing off, but I know... or at least I think I know (stupid brain :( ) ... that my coaches emphasized the push on drill workouts for us weaker swimmers to get us continually used to being long, minimally resistant and gliding in the water. I think. Maybe. Did I even do any tris?2Young2BBald said:
As comedian Steven Wright has said:El Floppo said:
DO IT!!
Last I checked, this wasn't a basketball thread either, I'm just sayinggruecd said:
You are freaking turbo, I work in a 2 story building and have had to make sure no one is around to watch me take the stair the last two days. I wish I had your recovery DNA.
OK, so it's sunny and 53° outside today, and there's a WNW wind at 16 MPH gusting to almost 30 MPH. I'm nowhere near accustomed to running in the heat (relatively speaking) yet, and I hate wind, so I know I've got my work cut out for me. Not to mention that I'm coming off the injury, so my lactate theshold is way below normal.Nevertheless, I did the mile warm-up, and then managed to do the tempo miles in 6:55, 6:50, 6:52, and 6:59. I really struggled on the last one, but I did everything in my power to keep it under 7:00. More of a pride thing than anything else. Did the cool-down mile, and ended up clocking 42:56 for the entire six miles.gruecd said:
Yep - you need to train for what you will be up against. No flip turns in an OW swim, so when practicing in the pool trying to minimize their impact is useful. In an actual pool swim turns make a big difference.
), went out and got a bleu cheese burger with sauteed onions & bacon with the fries & ring and stopped by my running store and picked up a 26.2 sticker for the car.
if you are lurking and will be there, we'll be the family in the :X Martian Shirts, come over and say hi).
Please be careful w/ the martian shirts. Somebody could get hurt, or at least very annoyed.
Its all part of the plan. My son turns 11 on Sunday, so Saturday is his last day to run as a 10-year old. It looks as though they award the kids 10 deep by year up to age 14 in the 2-miler. Between the shirts distracting the other kids and some serious coaching from mom & dad we are hoping to push the boy for the coveted $5 off kids meal at Bubba Gump Shrimp (they are going all out with the prizes). My mom is running it as well so we've have additional motivation for the kids not to get beat by a woman in the 65-70 group (the reverse Furley).
Yep, you have no credibility here 
Yep, you have no credibility here 
