Ran a 10k in June (2 Viewers)

[culdeus]

Wow, it is almost like they hand drew those relay legs to give people cramps.

 

[Sand]

I think Randy is a 7:00/per mile type guy. He will be up there with us. I think Gru is between 6:30 and 6:50, but don't quote me on that. I will be around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on the stretch of dirt.

The original plan was to crash at Wraith's moms house which is close to the start. That could change though as well depending if it is still an option or not.

Some of the names we talked about are:

Bourbon Cowboys

All of your Bourbon are belong to us (something like that, whatever that game phrase is)

Whiskey D-i-c-k-s

Bourbon Legends

Band of Brothers

FBG something or other

Gru is a 6:20 or so guy for 10k. You are currently marked down at a 42min 10k guy, so 6:45 or so - is that right? Randy would be ~44 or so, so up there pretty good, as well.Hopefully we can crash at Wraith's place - that sounds a good place to start and end from.

BTW folks, our Name our Team thread.

 

[gruecd]

Grue - Hola! Have a great time. What's this about "the other half"? First I think I've heard of this.

I just make a conscious effort to keep my "real life" separate from my "internet life." It's nothing personal. Once I meet people and actually get to know them (i.e., wraith, tri-man, 2Young, etc.) , it's a totally different story.

 

[pmbrown_22]

I think Randy is a 7:00/per mile type guy. He will be up there with us. I think Gru is between 6:30 and 6:50, but don't quote me on that. I will be around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on the stretch of dirt.

The original plan was to crash at Wraith's moms house which is close to the start. That could change though as well depending if it is still an option or not.

Some of the names we talked about are:

Bourbon Cowboys

All of your Bourbon are belong to us (something like that, whatever that game phrase is)

Whiskey D-i-c-k-s

Bourbon Legends

Band of Brothers

FBG something or other

Gru is a 6:20 or so guy for 10k. You are currently marked down at a 42min 10k guy, so 6:45 or so - is that right? Randy would be ~44 or so, so up there pretty good, as well.Hopefully we can crash at Wraith's place - that sounds a good place to start and end from.

BTW folks, our Name our Team thread.

That 42 min for me is a most hopeful goal for everything. I will shoot for it though and see where I get by the race, but we can go with that for now. Best 10K I had was averaging 7:20 and that was before doing everything that I am doing now as far as training goes.

 

[Darrinll40]

2 miles this afternoon. Not far but both miles were under 10m/m.

A week ago I restarted core exercises and was only able to do 15ish lunges and 20 crunches per set.

Last night I was able to do 30 lunges and 50 crunches to a set. I finished with 125 crunches. I can't wait until I am back able to do 300+.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!

8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

 

[Sand]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

 

[Ned]

I feel like #### today - think a cold is making a big comeback, so I'm going with an unscheduled rest day. :X

 

[prosopis]

I did a six mile tempo run today. It was 80 out. I hate to complain about that with all the ####ty weather others are running in but REALLY??? 80 in January. Seems like my hr goes up with the temps. I made it though. I do two tomorrow and 8 on Saturday. Looks like the plan takes a small break next week with 3 runs of 4 miles.

Grue what are the temps in Mexico?

As far as the garmin question I got nothing for you. I have never had that issue. I would go to one of the garmin boards and see what they say.

 

[BassNBrew]

Still kind of guessing on the speed workouts so I'll put in a second request for guidance.

Based on a 23:01 5k McMillan is saying 1:30 - 1:40 for sprint workouts and 1:39 - 1:43 for speed workouts at the 400k distance. Tonite my times were 1:35, 1:36, 1:39, 1:37, 1:32 for 5 x 400m before that stupid gut pain came back. Not sure which targets I should be looking for...speed or sprint. 5 reps was all I had in me. Is this something I should be building up to or should I be forcing some 800s?

Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.

2000m event time = 8:25

2000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28

I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Anyone ever pull a glute muscle? I think it's a glute, at least, I'm not sure. It's a strange feeling; I think I tweaked it when running last Wednesday night. I've taken the entire week off from running, figured I'd give it some time to recover...and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I've tweaked my hip flexor before, and this feels somewhat similar, only slightly more painful and it doesn't seem to get better with time.

Any suggestions?

 

[Sand]

I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.

The speeds are designed to be fast enough to stimulate the system that is desired (in this case stimulating VO2max adaptations) while staying slow enough to lessen the chances of injury. ---Another day in the books. Night run tonight and I finally used the running light I got for Christmas (works great). Odd night - 40F temp. Dewpoint 40F. So cold, very humid, and borderline misty/foggy. Pretty cool running conditions, though. Ran 7 miles at 8:05/mile and felt like I cruised through it. Felt good finishing up.

 

[SteelCurtain]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

Just want to make sure you have me as an alternate also. Thanks. I wish I could've committed when it was offered.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

cool. I'll know this afternoon where we'll be next year. Might be close.

 

[pmbrown_22]

7.5 miles for me last night after almost 10 days off. Felt good, but I also did lunges yesterday so my legs were wiped. I need to get stronger though so it is just something that I have to do. Overall, I felt refreshed to get back out there. I think I am going to stick with my 12/55 week plan and go with it. I don't think I will try and run this marathon for a PR, but start working on getting a bit faster so I can build up for the Fall. I hate to put all my eggs in one basket, but nothing like a little pressure to keep me motivated.

 

[pigskinliquors]

I'm still trying to get my out of shape ### in better shape. I had a nice OUTDOOR swim yesterday. I did 100, 200, 400, 700, 400, 200, 100, with the 400's at :55 per 100, and the 700 at :57 per 100. This morning was another 4 mile run. I was slightly faster today, but my HR is still higher than I'd like it, and my groin feels worse again. I'm afraid it might be too early to ease into it, though I can't stand not running/biking, so I'll cautiously continue forward.

 

[2Young2BBald]

I'm still trying to get my out of shape ### in better shape. I had a nice OUTDOOR swim yesterday. I did 100, 200, 400, 700, 400, 200, 100, with the 400's at :55 per 100, and the 700 at :57 per 100. This morning was another 4 mile run. I was slightly faster today, but my HR is still higher than I'd like it, and my groin feels worse again. I'm afraid it might be too early to ease into it, though I can't stand not running/biking, so I'll cautiously continue forward.

Way jealous of your swim, and insanely jealous you got to swim OUTDOORS. I missed both swim days this week due to work travel. DID do hotel lunges Tri-Man style along with a bunch of strength and core stuff. I hoping to do a LONG basement brick routine tonight between the trainer & treadmill.

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm still trying to get my out of shape ### in better shape. I had a nice OUTDOOR swim yesterday. I did 100, 200, 400, 700, 400, 200, 100, with the 400's at :55 per 100, and the 700 at :57 per 100. This morning was another 4 mile run. I was slightly faster today, but my HR is still higher than I'd like it, and my groin feels worse again. I'm afraid it might be too early to ease into it, though I can't stand not running/biking, so I'll cautiously continue forward.

You're turning into a regular fish.Today was week 3 of my tempo to lactate threshold class. Surprisingly I had one of the days where everything was on despite 4 hours of sleep last night. The main portion of the workout was 4 x 10 minute intervals with 3 minute recoveries at 65%. The intervals ramped from 75% to 90% for 2 reps and 80% to 95% for 2 reps. I've been riding in aero at a 285 watt (setting for 100%). I wasn't even getting into zone 4 on the first two intervals so I went to 300 watts for interval three and just barely got into zone 4. Bumped interval four to 310 watts a finsihed up in mid zone 4. Finished up with two one minute efforts at 400 watts and hopped on the treadmill for 10 minutes and ran the following paces.0-3 min: 10 min/mi to 9 min/mi pace3-6 min: 8 min/mi pace7-8 min: 7.5 min/mi pace9-10 min: 7 min/mi pace at threshold hrReally wish I had been racing today.

 

[Ned]

Still kind of guessing on the speed workouts so I'll put in a second request for guidance.Based on a 23:01 5k McMillan is saying 1:30 - 1:40 for sprint workouts and 1:39 - 1:43 for speed workouts at the 400k distance. Tonite my times were 1:35, 1:36, 1:39, 1:37, 1:32 for 5 x 400m before that stupid gut pain came back. Not sure which targets I should be looking for...speed or sprint. 5 reps was all I had in me. Is this something I should be building up to or should I be forcing some 800s? Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.2000m event time = 8:252000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

That sounds a little slow to me too. I understand the need to keep it under control to avoid injury, but for me personally I'd be pushing it more than that. I'll probably be going back to the 5K/10K races this summer after I'm done with the marathon so I'll be curious to see what you end up doing.I'd probably be looking at 75-80sec 400 repeats and about 3:15 for 800. I'd work in controlled but all out 200's also.

 

[BassNBrew]

Still kind of guessing on the speed workouts so I'll put in a second request for guidance.Based on a 23:01 5k McMillan is saying 1:30 - 1:40 for sprint workouts and 1:39 - 1:43 for speed workouts at the 400k distance. Tonite my times were 1:35, 1:36, 1:39, 1:37, 1:32 for 5 x 400m before that stupid gut pain came back. Not sure which targets I should be looking for...speed or sprint. 5 reps was all I had in me. Is this something I should be building up to or should I be forcing some 800s? Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.2000m event time = 8:252000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

That sounds a little slow to me too. I understand the need to keep it under control to avoid injury, but for me personally I'd be pushing it more than that. I'll probably be going back to the 5K/10K races this summer after I'm done with the marathon so I'll be curious to see what you end up doing.I'd probably be looking at 75-80sec 400 repeats and about 3:15 for 800. I'd work in controlled but all out 200's also.

What's your 5k time?Also thanks for the reply. Lately it's been hard to get running advice around here if it's not marathon related.

 

[Ned]

Still kind of guessing on the speed workouts so I'll put in a second request for guidance.Based on a 23:01 5k McMillan is saying 1:30 - 1:40 for sprint workouts and 1:39 - 1:43 for speed workouts at the 400k distance. Tonite my times were 1:35, 1:36, 1:39, 1:37, 1:32 for 5 x 400m before that stupid gut pain came back. Not sure which targets I should be looking for...speed or sprint. 5 reps was all I had in me. Is this something I should be building up to or should I be forcing some 800s? Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.2000m event time = 8:252000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

That sounds a little slow to me too. I understand the need to keep it under control to avoid injury, but for me personally I'd be pushing it more than that. I'll probably be going back to the 5K/10K races this summer after I'm done with the marathon so I'll be curious to see what you end up doing.I'd probably be looking at 75-80sec 400 repeats and about 3:15 for 800. I'd work in controlled but all out 200's also.

What's your 5k time?Also thanks for the reply. Lately it's been hard to get running advice around here if it's not marathon related.

I haven't run one since June, but it was 24:10. Pretty sure I could run a low 23 right now.I'm all about the speed stuff and looking forward to this summer. I'm geeked about the marathon, but I think 5k/10k is going to be my bread n butter for the long term.

 

[gruecd]

Grue what are the temps in Mexico?

Mid 80s and sunny, amigo! I did a five-mile run each of the last 3 days, along with a little swimming. Still have a ways to go on the swimming, but I'm definitely getting more comfortable in the water.One more day, then heading back bright and early on Saturday morning.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

cool. I'll know this afternoon where we'll be next year. Might be close.

You can take me off the alternate list. I'm headed to a GREAT spot and job, but then off to Afghanistan.

 

[Sand]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!

8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

cool. I'll know this afternoon where we'll be next year. Might be close.

You can take me off the alternate list. I'm headed to a GREAT spot and job, but then off to Afghanistan.

Thoughts and prayers on your travels.

 

[tri-man 47]

I'm a bit jealous here guys, have fun!

8 miles today, ran with a couple friends so a bit slower than usual, but that's probably a good thing. Sometimes it pays to take it slower.

You are still on the list as first alternate, GB. We haven't forgotten about you.

cool. I'll know this afternoon where we'll be next year. Might be close.

You can take me off the alternate list. I'm headed to a GREAT spot and job, but then off to Afghanistan.

Thoughts and prayers on your travels.

Absolutely! God bless ya!!

 

[prosopis]

Grue what are the temps in Mexico?

Mid 80s and sunny, amigo! I did a five-mile run each of the last 3 days, along with a little swimming. Still have a ways to go on the swimming, but I'm definitely getting more comfortable in the water.

One more day, then heading back bright and early on Saturday morning.

 

[FUBAR]

You can take me off the alternate list. I'm headed to a GREAT spot and job, but then off to Afghanistan.

Thoughts and prayers on your travels.

Absolutely! God bless ya!!

Thanks guys, won't be going for awhile but it takes the possibility of doing many races this year out. 2012-13 will make up for it.

 

[Darrinll40]

I got in my 2 miles last night. I meant to go at 11m/m but ended up just over 10, but it felt good.

I weighed in this morning.

228, 2.5 pounds less than last week.

FUBAR - be careful over there.

Grue - I talked to my mom in Indiana today, and it was 0 there with a wind chill of -13. I wonder what it is in Wisconsin?

 

[gruecd]

I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.

The speeds are designed to be fast enough to stimulate the system that is desired (in this case stimulating VO2max adaptations) while staying slow enough to lessen the chances of injury.

 

[pmbrown_22]

it is about 0 here today to. Did not get a workout in yesterday other than shoveling snow last night. I am not sure where I am going to be running with all this snow on the ground. I will find away.

Have a great weekend all.

 

[Genedoc]

Just got back from my first swim. I lost track, but I swam several hundred meters. Being the first time in a pool to swim laps like this, mostly I just wanted to get wet and see where I am.

Cardio and muscles wise, I'll be fine. Not too winded, not too tired. Googles and swim trunks fit and are good stuff to have. Thanks to the other stuff I've been doing for some time my core and total body conditioning is pretty good. And I can swim...never any threat of me not being able to finish. That's all of the good news.

The bad news is that I'm a genuinely wretched swimmer. Not in the "OMG, that dude can't swim and may drown" sense, but in a "that dude has absolutely zero rhythm/form and has no clue when/how to breathe" sense. I realized that I come to a near complete stop when I breathe. I played around with this for a while, and I realized I don't come close to fully exhaling while my face is in the water. As a result, I come up out of the water, exhale, then inhale, then go back into the water. I tried a couple of times to inhale over to one side like I think you're supposed to, and both times I got about half air, half water. Oof. Then I started trying to work on simply forcing all of the air out of my lungs with my face in the water and not even moving. Couldn't do it. I got panicky when I'd get below about 1/2 capacity, and pop up for a gulp of air.

More questions than I can think of right now. I'm going to do this first tri one way or the other, and just for my own information I swam several hundred meters backstroking, and that was remarkably easy. At least twice, maybe three times as fast as swimming with my face in the water. So if worse comes to worse and I cannot get any better between now and April 30, I'll backstroke the damn thing assuming this is legal. Is it? What about nose clips? It seems like life would be easier with my nose pinched close. Yes, I realize this would look ridiculous and it may we make me a complete Nancy.

This was my concern/fear. The cycling is easy, and the running I've done before and I've a pretty good idea how to get from where I am now to where I need to be. The swim/pool intimidates me. There's clearly no way I can do any open water swims until I get more competent. Lessons would be fine with me, but I don't need either "how to not drown" or "training for Olympic swim team" lessons, so I'm not really sure where to even look. I'll try pretty much whatever you guys suggest/recommend short of floaties/swimmies/water wings.

 

[tri-man 47]

Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.2000m event time = 8:252000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

BnB - I would say that the intent of these workouts is to add an endurance element to your speed. If you can still hold the (slower) pace over multiple reps, then when "crunch" time comes and you need to do the faster speed for only one rep, your body can respond ...particularly if you've blended in some reps at shorter distances that are faster than race pace. For those longer reps, holding the speed during the fifth or sixth or eighth rep will, I believe, equate to holding the race speed for essentially one rep. Mentally, too, your mind is saying during the race "this feels fast," but then again, your mind knows "I don't have to hold back."

 

[tri-man 47]

More questions than I can think of right now. I'm going to do this first tri one way or the other, and just for my own information I swam several hundred meters backstroking, and that was remarkably easy. At least twice, maybe three times as fast as swimming with my face in the water. So if worse comes to worse and I cannot get any better between now and April 30, I'll backstroke the damn thing assuming this is legal. Is it? What about nose clips? It seems like life would be easier with my nose pinched close. Yes, I realize this would look ridiculous and it may we make me a complete Nancy.

First of all, don't even try to do more than one length at a time until you get somewhat comfortable. You might try doing four strokes per breath ...that gives you plenty of time to slowly exhale before turning for an inhale. And really, you could even just push off the wall, do four (or more) strokes while exhaling, then stand up, walk back to the wall and do it again. I.e., get used to exhaling without the pressure of a rotating-body inhale. I would also recommend emphasizing an easy kick and a very light arm stroke - don't try to give a serious arm pull; just let the arms go through the motions so you get acclimated. This could allow you to keep kicking lightly while trying a body rotation and inhale. Let it all feel like slow motion - no speed, not even a need to finish the length of the pool. At any moment of panic, flip to your back or come up for some light breast strokes until you get to the wall and can reevaluate. While trying an inhale, over-exaggerate the body turn and even 'freeze' yourself in that turn position as you inhale. Turn back down, and then stand up ...walk back and reevaluate what you've done.It will come ...it will come.

 

[Genedoc]

More questions than I can think of right now. I'm going to do this first tri one way or the other, and just for my own information I swam several hundred meters backstroking, and that was remarkably easy. At least twice, maybe three times as fast as swimming with my face in the water. So if worse comes to worse and I cannot get any better between now and April 30, I'll backstroke the damn thing assuming this is legal. Is it? What about nose clips? It seems like life would be easier with my nose pinched close. Yes, I realize this would look ridiculous and it may we make me a complete Nancy.

First of all, don't even try to do more than one length at a time until you get somewhat comfortable. You might try doing four strokes per breath ...that gives you plenty of time to slowly exhale before turning for an inhale. And really, you could even just push off the wall, do four (or more) strokes while exhaling, then stand up, walk back to the wall and do it again. I.e., get used to exhaling without the pressure of a rotating-body inhale. I would also recommend emphasizing an easy kick and a very light arm stroke - don't try to give a serious arm pull; just let the arms go through the motions so you get acclimated. This could allow you to keep kicking lightly while trying a body rotation and inhale. Let it all feel like slow motion - no speed, not even a need to finish the length of the pool. At any moment of panic, flip to your back or come up for some light breast strokes until you get to the wall and can reevaluate. While trying an inhale, over-exaggerate the body turn and even 'freeze' yourself in that turn position as you inhale. Turn back down, and then stand up ...walk back and reevaluate what you've done.It will come ...it will come.

Thanks. This is somewhat encouraging, because I was doing a fair amount of the above once I realized I genuinely didn't know how/when to breathe properly. What about the nose clip? Would that help or hinder the learning process? I'm guessing hinder, but it's worth asking. It felt like a lot of my problems were simply not being able to control when I exhaled and when I inhaled while water was in my nose. It felt very challenging to get my body to do what I was telling it to do while face down in the water. I'd instinctively pop up and get my face out of the water even though I wasn't in any distress. Good news is that this wasn't taxing at all, and I can do it on days I do other stuff until I figure out what I'm doing.

 

[BassNBrew]

More questions than I can think of right now. I'm going to do this first tri one way or the other, and just for my own information I swam several hundred meters backstroking, and that was remarkably easy. At least twice, maybe three times as fast as swimming with my face in the water. So if worse comes to worse and I cannot get any better between now and April 30, I'll backstroke the damn thing assuming this is legal. Is it? What about nose clips? It seems like life would be easier with my nose pinched close. Yes, I realize this would look ridiculous and it may we make me a complete Nancy.

First of all, don't even try to do more than one length at a time until you get somewhat comfortable. You might try doing four strokes per breath ...that gives you plenty of time to slowly exhale before turning for an inhale. And really, you could even just push off the wall, do four (or more) strokes while exhaling, then stand up, walk back to the wall and do it again. I.e., get used to exhaling without the pressure of a rotating-body inhale. I would also recommend emphasizing an easy kick and a very light arm stroke - don't try to give a serious arm pull; just let the arms go through the motions so you get acclimated. This could allow you to keep kicking lightly while trying a body rotation and inhale. Let it all feel like slow motion - no speed, not even a need to finish the length of the pool. At any moment of panic, flip to your back or come up for some light breast strokes until you get to the wall and can reevaluate. While trying an inhale, over-exaggerate the body turn and even 'freeze' yourself in that turn position as you inhale. Turn back down, and then stand up ...walk back and reevaluate what you've done.It will come ...it will come.

1. It's legal to use any type of stroke as well as stand up in a pool swim, hold on to the wall, etc.2. I agree with Triman's advice except for the four strokes between breathes. Over longer distances that will lead to oxygen derprivation for the muscles. Maybe try slowing your storke down with a longer glide.

 

[pigskinliquors]

Genedoc: Great job just getting at it. I wouldn't recommend that you use a nose clip. It will likely become a crutch, and hinder proper breathing. I highly recommend Total Immersion books/videos to assist your learning. I'm not a very strong swimmer, but these videos have certainly helped me. I typically breathe every other stroke (always to my left), but have been working on every third to alternate the side of the breath. I agree w/ BnB that every 4th will likely cause oxygen deprivation; though Tri-Man is suggesting one length at a time, which would reduce that as an issue. The biggest key is to learn some proper technique, and to get time in the water. Don't be afraid to ask others that you are swimming by, and try to find books/videos to assist. I often swim next to members of either Texas A&M's swim teams, or Tri-teams, and just watching them helps me learn. It also reveals how little effort is needed to propel yourself through the water. It is common for them to be doing kickboard excercises and to be faster than me, while working my tail off.

BnB: Man you are getting fast! You should be able to tear some duathlons up the way your running has improved. Get your butt in the water and you could start doing some damage in tri's!

Grue: Enjoy the warmth while you can!

_________________________________

My update:

My frustrations are getting worse. I can hardly put any weight on my right leg today as my groin is certainly worse after yesterday's run. I hate to shut it down all the way again, but might not have any other choices What sucks, is that Feb through April is typically my heaviest race schedule. I might have to bite the bullet and allow myself enough time to heal all the way and just forget about all my Spring races. It will suck, but the alternative (trying to train for them) is appearing to have even a worse outcome (i.e., staying injured). I've googled the bejesus out of groin injuries, and it sounds like 2-3 weeks without running/biking followed by gentle workouts might do the trick. Regardless, this sucks!

 

[tri-man 47]

I agree w/ BnB that every 4th will likely cause oxygen deprivation; though Tri-Man is suggesting one length at a time, which would reduce that as an issue.

You guys are absolutely right - every 4th breath is NOT recommended for longer distances of any sort. I only suggest that during these early training days so Genedoc can focus on exhaling without having to also think about turning the body to inhale. My idea was that it'd just be to push off the wall and stroke and kick lightly while exhaling ...then stand up and walk back. Repeat a couple of times, then try pushing off, exhaling, and turning slowly for an inhale ...then again, stand up and walk back. Repeat. I would hope that within a couple of swim sessions (or even several attempts), Genedoc "gets it" enough that he can swim the length of the pool with the standard breathing pattern and without having to concentrate too much. But even then, it is perfectly normal training to stop after a length, think things through (and look and learn from others, as liquors mentions), then push off and return.I, too, do not recommend the nose clip (despite fond memories of the SNL synchronized swimming clip).

 

[Genedoc]

Thanks for the swimming tips. I'm watching the total immersion intro now, and I can immediately see that this will be beneficial. Slide #1 really resonates with me. I work way, way too hard in the water. I've never seen a video of myself swimming and I hope I don't any time soon, but I'd be pretty willing to bet I look more like I'm assaulting the water than gliding through it. That said, I'm not doing that by choice per se, I just can't imagine relaxing in the water until I get comfortable breathing correctly. I'm pretty sure that's why my backstroke is so much faster/easier - I'm not thinking about breathing and I can just relax in the water. Going back to watch some more now.

Good news is that the pool is less than a mile from my house and I've a flexible schedule.

 

[culdeus]

Still kind of guessing on the speed workouts so I'll put in a second request for guidance.Based on a 23:01 5k McMillan is saying 1:30 - 1:40 for sprint workouts and 1:39 - 1:43 for speed workouts at the 400k distance. Tonite my times were 1:35, 1:36, 1:39, 1:37, 1:32 for 5 x 400m before that stupid gut pain came back. Not sure which targets I should be looking for...speed or sprint. 5 reps was all I had in me. Is this something I should be building up to or should I be forcing some 800s? Also, the top 800m speed workout is basically slower than the predicted 1600m time and just faster than the 2 mile pace. I don't understand how you get faster running slower than your race pace. Here's an example directly from the website.2000m event time = 8:252000m speed interval time = 9:13 to 9:28I understand that there will be fatigue from running these, but I thought the goal was to teach you body to run faster.

I would always base train around an 18 minute goal for a 5k so bear with me. The track workouts I'd do were very regimented and scalable. I would not mix in 800s on a track frequently.The main objective was to run as many pace 400m as possible. Base training was :70 and the objective during a peak phase was to run as many :59 as possible with as little rest as needed between. The theory (right or wrong) was to do as many :59s as you can handle with as much rest as it would take to teach you to go faster. If :59s weren't attainable then drop back and do :28 200s. Sometimes I miss it. Sometimes.

 

[Genedoc]

Fascinated by this total immersion guy. I paused the video and made a sticky note that says "Improve on Land by building the engine; improve in the water by shaping the vessel". This makes SO much sense to a science geek like me.

ETA - The videos of him side by next with other swimmers is nothing short of amazing. Dude generates NO bubbles. Wow.

 

[Sand]

Genedoc: Great job just getting at it. I wouldn't recommend that you use a nose clip. It will likely become a crutch, and hinder proper breathing. I highly recommend Total Immersion books/videos to assist your learning. I'm not a very strong swimmer, but these videos have certainly helped me. I typically breathe every other stroke (always to my left), but have been working on every third to alternate the side of the breath. I agree w/ BnB that every 4th will likely cause oxygen deprivation; though Tri-Man is suggesting one length at a time, which would reduce that as an issue. The biggest key is to learn some proper technique, and to get time in the water. Don't be afraid to ask others that you are swimming by, and try to find books/videos to assist. I often swim next to members of either Texas A&M's swim teams, or Tri-teams, and just watching them helps me learn. It also reveals how little effort is needed to propel yourself through the water. It is common for them to be doing kickboard excercises and to be faster than me, while working my tail off.

Amazing how fast folks can be just kicking, huh? There are guys over on the USMS board who are doing sub-30 kick drills. Unreal. I'm stuck at somewhere around 45s/50yd. Pretty mediocre. I need to do more kick drills - but damn those hurt.Anyway, to Gene: Get Total Immersion. Work on balance, breathing, rotation, and keeping your head down/legs up. I would recommend breathing as often as you need to, which should probably be every two arm cycles. Don't worry about alternate side breathing at this point, IMO. A couple one on one swim lessons can do a world of good, IMO. I've said it before, but it bears repeating - swimming is like golf, once you get the swing down it gets so much easier. Getting that feedback is much easier with a third person involved.

Oh, and look through the swimsmooth website. Great stuff in there (free).

 

[Sand]

Thanks for the swimming tips. I'm watching the total immersion intro now, and I can immediately see that this will be beneficial. Slide #1 really resonates with me. I work way, way too hard in the water. I've never seen a video of myself swimming and I hope I don't any time soon, but I'd be pretty willing to bet I look more like I'm assaulting the water than gliding through it. That said, I'm not doing that by choice per se, I just can't imagine relaxing in the water until I get comfortable breathing correctly. I'm pretty sure that's why my backstroke is so much faster/easier - I'm not thinking about breathing and I can just relax in the water. Going back to watch some more now.

Good news is that the pool is less than a mile from my house and I've a flexible schedule.

Very typical and normal for a beginner. If you look you'll see a lot of talk about TI - some good and some bad. Keep this in mind - for beginners it is awesome. It gives a great structure to get the basic stoke down. The guy who sells it also says it is appropriate for advanced swimmers (faster than 1:30/100). That is where the negative chatter comes from. I think at that level its usefulness falls off. If you are in/around Birmingham, AL I'd be happy to give a lesson.

 

[Genedoc]

Thanks for the swimming tips. I'm watching the total immersion intro now, and I can immediately see that this will be beneficial. Slide #1 really resonates with me. I work way, way too hard in the water. I've never seen a video of myself swimming and I hope I don't any time soon, but I'd be pretty willing to bet I look more like I'm assaulting the water than gliding through it. That said, I'm not doing that by choice per se, I just can't imagine relaxing in the water until I get comfortable breathing correctly. I'm pretty sure that's why my backstroke is so much faster/easier - I'm not thinking about breathing and I can just relax in the water. Going back to watch some more now.

Good news is that the pool is less than a mile from my house and I've a flexible schedule.

Very typical and normal for a beginner. If you look you'll see a lot of talk about TI - some good and some bad. Keep this in mind - for beginners it is awesome. It gives a great structure to get the basic stoke down. The guy who sells it also says it is appropriate for advanced swimmers (faster than 1:30/100). That is where the negative chatter comes from. I think at that level its usefulness falls off. If you are in/around Birmingham, AL I'd be happy to give a lesson.

Thanks. I'm in Raleigh, so the commute for lessons would be tough. I can see where at the performance end of the spectrum there would be debate. But for someone like me who has as a goal simply getting proficient, it looks great. And I love the idea of thinking about the body as having bilateral symmetry along the spinal column as opposed to upper body/lower body. I was completely thinking upper body/lower body in the pool today, and I rarely if ever got them coordinated properly. His notion of dropping the hips, using gravity, and relaxing all sounds like things I need to do. Plus, for triathlon training, it seems like treating the swim as a relaxing stretch/warm up makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[2Young2BBald]

My update:My frustrations are getting worse. I can hardly put any weight on my right leg today as my groin is certainly worse after yesterday's run. I hate to shut it down all the way again, but might not have any other choices What sucks, is that Feb through April is typically my heaviest race schedule. I might have to bite the bullet and allow myself enough time to heal all the way and just forget about all my Spring races. It will suck, but the alternative (trying to train for them) is appearing to have even a worse outcome (i.e., staying injured). I've googled the bejesus out of groin injuries, and it sounds like 2-3 weeks without running/biking followed by gentle workouts might do the trick. Regardless, this sucks!

I know this is going to sound silly, but why haven't you seen a Dr? Its time, go figure what all is going on and see if physical therapy will fix you for a while versus the constant get better, get injured - rinse & repeat.

 

[2Young2BBald]

Thanks for the swimming tips. I'm watching the total immersion intro now, and I can immediately see that this will be beneficial. Slide #1 really resonates with me. I work way, way too hard in the water. I've never seen a video of myself swimming and I hope I don't any time soon, but I'd be pretty willing to bet I look more like I'm assaulting the water than gliding through it. That said, I'm not doing that by choice per se, I just can't imagine relaxing in the water until I get comfortable breathing correctly. I'm pretty sure that's why my backstroke is so much faster/easier - I'm not thinking about breathing and I can just relax in the water. Going back to watch some more now. Good news is that the pool is less than a mile from my house and I've a flexible schedule.

One more no for the nose clip here. Instead, learn to force all your air out through your nose and mouth so you can get it out and get a good breath. Like PSL, I breathe every other stroke, but on my right side. Not only does this keep me from going anerobic, but can also allow me to side spot other competitors and let them do the spotting work for me. On the swimming itself, slow down to go faster. You are thrashing, I am guessing, because it seems like thats what you have to do to stay afloat. Trying swimming as slow as possible to just barely stay up in the water. You'll be amazed how little effort it take (and why swimming on your back seems so easy). Note, that the tri swim technique is different. Most use less full leg kicking and more "ruddering" from the knee down with light kicks to keep the legs up and positioned behind the body properly. You'll get plenty of use out of the legs on the ride and the run, save them if you can on the swim. As stated, ask other swimmer to give you advice after watching you swim. I had the light go on for me when I did and a few pointers went a long way.

 

[BassNBrew]

Sat in a Hunter Allen power siminar tonite at our bike shop. Funny guy and interesting. One thing that really stood out once his comments about tapering. The shorter the event, the more taper you need. For the longer stuff, stage racing, 1/2 to full iron, etc., fitness is more important than freshness. He presented a case study where a pro athlete/client had 4 events over two days each lasting about 2 minutes in duration where he told him to do nothing for two weeks other than one hour ride under 150 watts. They analyzed pr performances of hundreds of athletes and the data strongly supported this theory.

He also showed how their training stress measurment can predict on-coming injury/sickness.

 

[Sand]

Sat in a Hunter Allen power siminar tonite at our bike shop. Funny guy and interesting. One thing that really stood out once his comments about tapering. The shorter the event, the more taper you need. For the longer stuff, stage racing, 1/2 to full iron, etc., fitness is more important than freshness. He presented a case study where a pro athlete/client had 4 events over two days each lasting about 2 minutes in duration where he told him to do nothing for two weeks other than one hour ride under 150 watts. They analyzed pr performances of hundreds of athletes and the data strongly supported this theory.

Yeah - I'm gonna have to see a peer reviewed paper on this. This is the antithesis of everything I have read.

 

[tri-man 47]

Sat in a Hunter Allen power siminar tonite at our bike shop. Funny guy and interesting. One thing that really stood out once his comments about tapering. The shorter the event, the more taper you need. For the longer stuff, stage racing, 1/2 to full iron, etc., fitness is more important than freshness. He presented a case study where a pro athlete/client had 4 events over two days each lasting about 2 minutes in duration where he told him to do nothing for two weeks other than one hour ride under 150 watts. They analyzed pr performances of hundreds of athletes and the data strongly supported this theory.

Yeah - I'm gonna have to see a peer reviewed paper on this. This is the antithesis of everything I have read.

Yet interesting to consider. I've mentioned an 8 day sequence in summer'09 where I did a 1/2-marathon, then the next weekend a 12K trail race then, the next day, an Olympic tri ...seemingly to no ill effect. On the other end, I do recall a weekend of back-to-back 5Ks quite a number of years ago where the second 5K was a definite drop-off in performance. So I can understand some of the logic that BnB presents ...rest is needed for near 100% effort, but fitness and sharpness is needed for longer, sustained efforts. Another angle (esp. with Bourbon Chase looming next fall): I've done a couple of relay events, now, with gruecd and 2Young. I was very surprised both times in the body's ability to get back into action after a couple/few hours layoff. But here again, it was sustained effort, and not all-out pacing.

 

[Sand]

Since the thread on our name kinda died I figured it was time to pick something. The thread did result in some great ideas. I'm suggesting that all 10 of us in the thread here pick out 3 of their favorite names in the order that they like. We'll add it up and end up with a name.

Bourbon Cowboys

All of your Bourbon are belong to us

Whiskey D-i-c-k-s

Bourbon Legends

Band of Brothers

Point to the Bourbon

Start Hiding Bourbon

HTFU

Colonblow Diarists

Unpack This

The Welcomed Bourbon Overlords

Our Bourbon Overlords

Bourbon Honda?

SMB(ourbon)G, S

The Hippled Bourbon Experience

Blood, Sweat and Bourbon

The Richard Simmons Experience

Chafed thighs and a Bourbon back

This Run Is Useless Without Bourbon

The Shining Path Of Bourbon

Hello Shuke! Hello Bourbon!

Bourbon Way Since Day One

Look at me I'm Chasing Bourbon!

14CCP

Kicking Pacquiao's bourbon ###

Team Bourbonhole

Shining Path Sippers

Not Tops Locally

Upper Deckers

For my part, I like:

1. The Shining Path of Bourbon

2. Our Bourbon Overlords

3. Look at me I'm Chasing Bourbon!

4. Start Hiding Bourbon

5. All of your Bourbon are belong to us

Yes, I know I picked 5 instead of 3 - the other two are just helpful suggestions. Have to say, I really like The Shining Path of Bourbon. It is snappy and is pure FFA (and also makes sense ex-FFA). And we have something built in to decorate the vans with.

So please vote, guys, and we'll nail down our name!

 

[BassNBrew]

Sat in a Hunter Allen power siminar tonite at our bike shop. Funny guy and interesting. One thing that really stood out once his comments about tapering. The shorter the event, the more taper you need. For the longer stuff, stage racing, 1/2 to full iron, etc., fitness is more important than freshness. He presented a case study where a pro athlete/client had 4 events over two days each lasting about 2 minutes in duration where he told him to do nothing for two weeks other than one hour ride under 150 watts. They analyzed pr performances of hundreds of athletes and the data strongly supported this theory.

Yeah - I'm gonna have to see a peer reviewed paper on this. This is the antithesis of everything I have read.

Think about it this way. Ride an all out 40k TT every day for a year. Your performance would decay every day after the first effort until you bottomed out because you were fatigued. If you then continued doing 40k TTs every day your body would gradually adapt to the point that you could ride the 40k at the same speed you did on day one every single day. This would be fitness winning out over fatigue, but you would also plateau at this point. He said it would take about 6-7 months to get to this point.Fatigue and soreness impact top end performance/strength more than endurance - makes sense, why else would we be able to do or want to do recovery rides/runs. Keep in mind that we're talking about peaking for one event and coming off event focused workouts. Tapering is still needed / beneficial for the long stuff to peak.