Sorry to hear Duck, it's one of those frustrating injuries that can feel like you are taking two steps forward and then one step back. From what I have heard icing/stretching/resting can help for most minor cases, but if it gets worse sometimes ART can help a bit. Best of luck.'BassNBrew said:
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Ran a 10k in June (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter GStrot
- Start date
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Looking to buy a GPS watch that can do elevation/altitude and current pace. Any suggestions?
Prince Myshkin
Footballguy
a) You know what they call a 3 mile run at 5K pace? A 5K.got my butt kicked on a little 3 mile run today. i had planned on running this one at just about 5k pace and felt good getting started. after the first couple tenths, the rest of first mile was all uphill and dead straight into a steady 15-20 mph wind with gusts of probably 30. unbelievable what a difference that wind mademy heart rate was up in the 170's and pace way slower than i was planning.of course the last mile coming back was downhill/downwind but by that point the damage was done...
yeah that's kinda what i was going for. my weekends have been screwed up lately and i haven't been able to get a 5k in, so i was wanting to simulate one a little.
Sand
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I had an interesting interval workout tonight that I think might have been a good learning experience. Let me first say that intervals have always been my worst runs. I have had a tendency to bail on them and also spend too much time jogging/recovering between intervals.
My revelation tonight was that I think I was attempting to run them too fast. For the first time, I now have a 5K pace on the books to base things off of and I'm coming to terms with my slower self. I usually attempted intervals between 6:10 to a little below 6:00 pace. Today I was scheduled for a 11 mile run with 5 X .75 mile intervals. I ran on the treadmill. I started the first interval at a little slower than 5K pace (6:26, I think) and progressively got faster with each interval to 5K pace then to a little under 5K pace (last one was 6:11 pace). I wasn't so exhausted after each interval like I usually am and only needed .25 recovery between them. I felt so good I even added an extra interval at the end -- something I've never done before. Overall the whole run felt like how an interval session should feel instead of how I usually do them.
14 miler tomorrow then a couple days of rest before Sunday's half.
My revelation tonight was that I think I was attempting to run them too fast. For the first time, I now have a 5K pace on the books to base things off of and I'm coming to terms with my slower self. I usually attempted intervals between 6:10 to a little below 6:00 pace. Today I was scheduled for a 11 mile run with 5 X .75 mile intervals. I ran on the treadmill. I started the first interval at a little slower than 5K pace (6:26, I think) and progressively got faster with each interval to 5K pace then to a little under 5K pace (last one was 6:11 pace). I wasn't so exhausted after each interval like I usually am and only needed .25 recovery between them. I felt so good I even added an extra interval at the end -- something I've never done before. Overall the whole run felt like how an interval session should feel instead of how I usually do them.
14 miler tomorrow then a couple days of rest before Sunday's half.
mr. furley
Footballguy
Becoming the All-Terrain Human
A few years ago Jornet ran the 165-mile Tahoe Rim Trail and stopped just twice to sleep on the ground for a total of about 90 minutes. In the middle of the night he took a wrong turn, which added perhaps six miles to his run. He still finished in 38 hours 32 minutes, beating the record of Tim Twietmeyer, a legend in the world of ultrarunning, by more than seven hours.
A few years ago Jornet ran the 165-mile Tahoe Rim Trail and stopped just twice to sleep on the ground for a total of about 90 minutes. In the middle of the night he took a wrong turn, which added perhaps six miles to his run. He still finished in 38 hours 32 minutes, beating the record of Tim Twietmeyer, a legend in the world of ultrarunning, by more than seven hours.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Live and learn ...live and learn!SFDuck - fingers crossed here as well for you!!! Hopefully the extra rest will be a blessing in disguise.
2Young2BBald
Footbaldguy
DC Rainmaker is the man and no one gets these devices like him.Huge nervous dad alert. My son makes his HS track debut on Saturday as a freshman. He has been picked as part of a small group from his team to run an indoor event at a college nearby. Its primarily a relay event and he is running leg 3 of a 4X800 relay. Anyone have advice on pacing? Best I could tell him was to shadow the nearest runner after the hand off and out kick him at the turn for home.Ned, Sand-, thanks but I think they are looking for Africans who can run that workout without the "off" segments, and probably repeat it 3-4 more times at a faster pace, to take Ryan's spot.
Sho nuff- Best time of the year to be recovering from injury. Hope you are ready to go by the time the good weather arrives.
Hang- How do your legs feel? Ready to start training for that sub-1:30/sub-1:25?
Gruecd, Juxatatarot- As bad as I feel for you guys right now, the statistician in me thinks your bad luck with weather has to even out right? I certainly hope it turns around in Boston for ya'll, not like I don't have some personal stakes in the matter... Also Jux, that's definitely the right way to run intervals and much easier done on a treadmill. I have a habit of going out ######edly hard when I do intervals on the track after not doing them for awhile too so having the treadmill "pace" them for you helps.
2Young2bald- Has he run a 400 in a time trial / tryout / race before? If so, the most common advice I heard is to take his best 400 time (actual or reasonable estimate), add 5 seconds, and target that for the first 400 of his race and then try to hang on. (so if he has run a 65 second quarter, try to go out in 70 and hang on). I think Koby is a 800 guy though so maybe he can chime in and give some better advice. I was a miler in high school so when I got tapped for 4x800 duty I just went out like a bat out of hell and tried to hang on.
Sho nuff- Best time of the year to be recovering from injury. Hope you are ready to go by the time the good weather arrives.
Hang- How do your legs feel? Ready to start training for that sub-1:30/sub-1:25?
Gruecd, Juxatatarot- As bad as I feel for you guys right now, the statistician in me thinks your bad luck with weather has to even out right? I certainly hope it turns around in Boston for ya'll, not like I don't have some personal stakes in the matter... Also Jux, that's definitely the right way to run intervals and much easier done on a treadmill. I have a habit of going out ######edly hard when I do intervals on the track after not doing them for awhile too so having the treadmill "pace" them for you helps.
2Young2bald- Has he run a 400 in a time trial / tryout / race before? If so, the most common advice I heard is to take his best 400 time (actual or reasonable estimate), add 5 seconds, and target that for the first 400 of his race and then try to hang on. (so if he has run a 65 second quarter, try to go out in 70 and hang on). I think Koby is a 800 guy though so maybe he can chime in and give some better advice. I was a miler in high school so when I got tapped for 4x800 duty I just went out like a bat out of hell and tried to hang on.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I disagree...in TN, this is the good weather.High 30s to low 60s.
Come summer...the suck index (or what was it that we called it in here...the relationship of dewpoint to temperature that tells me how much a run is going to suck) is just off the charts.
My bad, I guess my statement feel true in general but definitely doesn't apply to the south/southeastern regions of the U.S. Regardless, hope you have a speedy recovery.
2Young2BBald
Footbaldguy
No. He ran the 70, 100 and 200, winning every race but one as a middle schooler last year and took up cross country last fall running an 18:45 in his last race. The HS track is still covered with snow, so the boys have done all of their workouts indoors so far. He did not play a winter sport, so he has been in the gym doing mostly strength and core all winter and did the optional indoor workouts since the first of the year. He is running with 3 of the top 5 boys from the cross country team and he was talking with two that are seniors yesterday about pacing (he just found out that he was running the event yesterday btw), Both basically told him to go full throttle and try not to puke after. The boys will have today and tomorrow to work on hand offs, but he has never run of an indoor track. He has an excellent coaching staff so I am sure they will coach him up fine, I just can't resist looking for a nugget or two that might just make him excel even more. His cross country times started dropping when he let me start planning split times and running to the mile markers and yelling out where he was according to plan. He was holding back early on, I think, because he wasn't aware of just how much running talent he had.
Hang 10
Footballguy
One of them feels outstanding! The other...not so much. I figured last sunday was suicide mission and it didn't disappoint. I'm dealing with some hip and knee soreness in my left leg. The plan is to stay off it for a week and then reassess next week. If it doesn't feel a good bit better, I'm going to schedule something with an ortho doctor. This week, I'm just lifting some weights, doing some soft tissue work on my legs and working on my diet. I figure, the best way to be ready to train again when it's time is to be lean and light. I was at my fastest last year, when I was about 10lbs lighter. So that's where I'm trying to get back to.
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Ned
Footballguy
I was a 200/400 guy in HS and some college. Didn't have the endurance to be serious in the 800, but I think Steve's advice is good. There's going to be some growing pains learning how to pace as well as learning how to run indoors. I'd certainly look to latch on to a runner's hip and just feel it out. The laps go by insanely fast indoors, so it's easy to get lost in how far you've run. 800 is just long enough to get a little tactical. If he was winning the 70/100/200, he's probably got a strong kick. I always relied on my kick and loved waiting in the wings to move on the bell.Is the track banked or flat? A banked track is a heck of a lot easier to run the turns than a flat. There's lots of little techniques you can practice, but I was really into focusing on body lean to keep my momentum through the turns. Kind of picture leading with your left shoulder, like you're almost to the point of trying to run through someone in front of you. Hard to put into words...
Random nugget - Don't get caught flat footed. Whenever I ran the 800 and started to get tired, I'd instantly drop off my toes. Its a speed killer.
GL Dad!!! Indoor track fn rocks. My random guess from following you guys on FB... 2:14
2Young2BBald
Footbaldguy
His kick is huge. He would typically pass more than a dozen runners in the last 100 to 150 yards of his last few cross country races. When would it be best to start a kick? Heading into the final turn for home? Great advice about staying on his toes and maintaining form. The core work he has done will hopefully keep him upright even if he is dying. From what we could see looking at Google images, the track is flat. His event is the second event of the day, with the girls going first (girls go first all season in odd years, boys in even-is this a Michigan thing, or is this the norm?).ETA, funny you are thinking 2:14. He asked me last night what I thought he could run his leg in and I said 2:15. Just made the mistake of googling up the event and saw that there are (60) teams entered.
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beer 302
Footballguy
Not having children interested in anything other than spending my money I love seeing this stuff. You're going to be a helluva lot more nervous than him, try not to piss yourself 
Enjoy this man, great time for you & him and this is the stuff when you're old and feeble, drooling all over yourself that you two will remember 
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
Can't add much to the good advice already. I agree that the mentality is basically full throttle ...but a small measure of control for the first 500-600m might be for R to be able to mentally focus on technique and strategy. If he is 100% all-out, his mind won't be able to concentrate on details, but if he is 95%, he can run through mental checklists - foot plant, leg rotation, lean on the turns, relaxed arm pumps, the cute redhead from Lit class, etc.
Ned
Footballguy
I honestly can't remember if there was any rhyme or reason to the order of the boys/girls. It's been too long now (graduated HS in '97). Indoor track is only 200m, so waiting until the last turn is too late (thats like waiting until halfway down the final straight on an outdoor track). I always liked to wait for exit of the first turn after the bell to start opening it up and be at full kick by the time I was entering the last turn. There's a million different ways to attack it, but that's how I liked it (when I felt good).Indoor always seemed to go by so much faster than outdoor. There's something mental about that short of a track. Having the bell ring and finishing ~ 30 seconds later is fun stuff. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he feels like the race snuck up on him after he's done.
2:15 would be a fantastic debut. Any idea what the other legs will be running? 2:00 is a good benchmark for top flight 800m kids.
ETA: Running track is going to do wonders for his XC season next year. What other distances is he interested in?
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koby925
Footballguy
Catching up after a few rough days. Monday was a scheduled day off anyway, but I have been sick as a dog. Took Tuesday off also and only ran 5 slow miles yesterday. Haven't run any speed since last Tues so may try to go out for some today. Possible 5K Sunday that I really wanted to try to do.
I feel for you guys in the colder climates. I am really loving the NC weather. It's cold for here for this time of year but that usually means nice running weather. Good luck to the guys racing and keep in mind it's early in the season (not typical PR time) anyway, so don't get discouraged. As hard as many of you have worked, I agree that you are due for great weather (and PRs!!!) at Boston.
Steve, wow nice workout on the treadmill. I don't know how you do that. I'd much rather go on a track.
2Young, I was a half miler/miler. I think you have gotten pretty good advice here. Pacing may be tougher in a relay if your son has the urge to go with the pack. But I trust with 60 teams there will be heats of the 4x800 and his team should be paired with fairly evenly matched teams, so hanging on the lead legs shoulder and making a move with a lap (assuming 200m track) to go may be the play. You didn't post any 400 times but if he was winning those races in middle school, I assume he was close to or sub 60. At that pace, I'd say you may want to go out more like 6-8 seconds slower than your best 400 time. With an 18:45 5K time and good speed, I think I agree with 2:15-2:20. Trying to think back, I think I ran 2:12 in the 800 as a Frosh with a best XC of around high 18s but that was outdoors. Indoors is tougher with more turns and he's probably not doing as much speed training yet.
I feel for you guys in the colder climates. I am really loving the NC weather. It's cold for here for this time of year but that usually means nice running weather. Good luck to the guys racing and keep in mind it's early in the season (not typical PR time) anyway, so don't get discouraged. As hard as many of you have worked, I agree that you are due for great weather (and PRs!!!) at Boston.
Steve, wow nice workout on the treadmill. I don't know how you do that. I'd much rather go on a track.
2Young, I was a half miler/miler. I think you have gotten pretty good advice here. Pacing may be tougher in a relay if your son has the urge to go with the pack. But I trust with 60 teams there will be heats of the 4x800 and his team should be paired with fairly evenly matched teams, so hanging on the lead legs shoulder and making a move with a lap (assuming 200m track) to go may be the play. You didn't post any 400 times but if he was winning those races in middle school, I assume he was close to or sub 60. At that pace, I'd say you may want to go out more like 6-8 seconds slower than your best 400 time. With an 18:45 5K time and good speed, I think I agree with 2:15-2:20. Trying to think back, I think I ran 2:12 in the 800 as a Frosh with a best XC of around high 18s but that was outdoors. Indoors is tougher with more turns and he's probably not doing as much speed training yet.
2Young2BBald
Footbaldguy
He is thinking the 200 & 400 and the long jump. He may have a hard time cracking either of those as a freshman. His school won the D1 regionals last year and brought back a ton of talent. Hard to tell on the other 3 kids. Best I can find from the record sheet is one of the boys ran a 2:09 as a freshman. He is a senior now and was the only one from his X-Country team to qualify for states, so I assume he'll be faster. One of the others is a junior and was right on a 17 minute 5K time this season. The last boy is a freshman too and was the only X-Country freshman faster than my son this season and only by 10 seconds or so.
That's the thing, I do not have a 400 time to post. He hasn't raced longer than a 200 and that was last year in middle school. As I recall, he ran his best at something in the mid 25s but is far better trained now then he was then. Thanks to everyone for the insight, as the long time folks here know, I am a HUGE over-thinker and this helps me a ton. I will not avalanche him with information, but I look forward to sharing info with him.
Ned
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Always laugh at myself now and did a bit while training and running a marathon.Was a 400m runner and hated anything over 800m at the time.Actually ran 1600m in a meet once...and only once. Ran against Tony Cosey who ended up in the 3000m steeplechase in the Atlanta games (I think it was that year). Cosey and a guy from my school usually split the 1600 and 3200 and fought for some 800m at times too. They were freaks...and smoked me by a ton.Never had a good grip on pacing as I always left too much in the tank.I liked the 400m better to just go all out until I had nothing left. Liked to take the lead from the start and hope others would waste energy trying to catch up.Also loved the 4x400m relay. Usually ran the 3rd leg...and sometimes preferred to get the baton behind a little bit.Remember one meet where we were behind quite a bit...and I ran the guy down...and saw the look on his face like "holy crap, how the f did this guy catch me" as I strolled by him and built a lead for our anchor.
MAC_32
Footballguy
From my experience there are two types of 800 runners.
#1 - gritty distance runner's
#2 - long sprinter's
The first type need to run the first 400 at almost max rate then do everything in their power to hang on. This was me. My best 400 ever was :55, my best 800's were when I opened with a :57 400. Anytime I tried to pace myself lap one and then kick, I couldn't, best time was 2:06 I think. When I went with the sprint + hang on approach, topped out at 2:00/2:01, depending on the watch.
Long sprinter's just need to pick a target like me for 500 meters, then beat me to oblivion on the last 300. Staying on your toes is important, but I think keeping your eyes up and maintaining focus is even moreso. Eyes go down, so does speed - keep those eyes up, explode when making the 300 meter turn then hope there's something else there as you come out of the 100 m turn.
#1 - gritty distance runner's
#2 - long sprinter's
The first type need to run the first 400 at almost max rate then do everything in their power to hang on. This was me. My best 400 ever was :55, my best 800's were when I opened with a :57 400. Anytime I tried to pace myself lap one and then kick, I couldn't, best time was 2:06 I think. When I went with the sprint + hang on approach, topped out at 2:00/2:01, depending on the watch.
Long sprinter's just need to pick a target like me for 500 meters, then beat me to oblivion on the last 300. Staying on your toes is important, but I think keeping your eyes up and maintaining focus is even moreso. Eyes go down, so does speed - keep those eyes up, explode when making the 300 meter turn then hope there's something else there as you come out of the 100 m turn.
sho nuff
Footballguy
koby925
Footballguy
Some long sprinters use the opposite approach. See Charles Jock of modern times. We had a guy in HS who was a 48.5 400m guy who'd take the 800m out in 53 point and dare people to come with him (not many people did/could) and hang on. The 800m is such a beautiful mixed bag of a race. It can be pushing and shoving physical too.
Sand
Footballguy
Great stuff in here. I didn't run in HS, but all I can say is full throttle, baby. By the time you get going that darn thing is done! 
Anyway, looks like some time in the injury box for me. Calf (my personal circuit breaker) acting up again. Hopefully good to go next week.
Oh, and BnB, I bought a new bike. Had to do something to keep up with you.
Anyway, looks like some time in the injury box for me. Calf (my personal circuit breaker) acting up again. Hopefully good to go next week.
Oh, and BnB, I bought a new bike. Had to do something to keep up with you.
I think the 800 is the longest race where the world record is set with positive splits, (David Rudisha - 49.28 / 51.73) and also where it's correct/optimal strategy (at least for world class runners). Just for kicks I looked up his open 400 time (45.5), which is less than 4 seconds faster than what he went out for the first lap of his WR run.I had very similar PRs to Mac as well, although my times came in relays so I never found out if I really broke 2 minutes on the day I ran the relay leg of my life, but I do remember going out in 56-58s regularly and passing a ton of people the last 200 meters even as I am slowing down quite a bit.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Oh, I sanded every 400m...the finish was usually me trying to stay upright as I was exhausted.Great stuff in here. I didn't run in HS, but all I can say is full throttle, baby. By the time you get going that darn thing is done!
koby925
Footballguy
You are right but someone running even or negative splits at that level looks like they're flying at the end. Dave Wottle's 72 Olympic Gold was run in even splits. It looked like he was done on the first lap (in last place) and flying at the end as he mowed people down. Nick Symmonds and Robbie Andrews in the US kinda still try to do employ that tactic but futilely IMO because it becomes increasingly harder when your competitors go out in 50-51 and can still finish in in 52-53. Not many elites finish in 54-55 these days so if you're too far back on the first lap you half to almost run 50 flat to compete using the Wottle/Symmonds/Andrews approach.
Ned
Footballguy
So at one point I was faster than MAC in my life?:51 for me
What happened to all that speed?
sho nuff
Footballguy
20 years, 2 kids...and too much beer.So at one point I was faster than MAC in my life?:51 for me
That and it never translated to distances that well for me.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'll bet there were a lot of people in here faster than me at distances shorter than 800 meters! 800 and 1600 were my sweet spots when I was younger, very average at anything shorter or longer.So at one point I was faster than MAC in my life?:51 for me
Sand
Footballguy
The marathon WR was a negative split?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Total opposite for me.Was not great 100m sprinter as my strength was my short term endurance in the 400m and a little in the 200m I could make up for the poorer start.I'll bet there were a lot of people in here faster than me at distances shorter than 800 meters! 800 and 1600 were my sweet spots when I was younger, very average at anything shorter or longer.So at one point I was faster than MAC in my life?:51 for me
Was also good in the relays as we had good handoffs.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It amazed me how much coaches did not pay attention to the handoff in longer relay races, often times the difference between winning and losing. It's why we never really got a good time for my 800 PR. Some watches had me at 2 flat and others at 2:01, I was the 2nd slowest of the 4, so we intentionally had me get the hand off late before my anchor leg.Total opposite for me.Was not great 100m sprinter as my strength was my short term endurance in the 400m and a little in the 200m I could make up for the poorer start.I'll bet there were a lot of people in here faster than me at distances shorter than 800 meters! 800 and 1600 were my sweet spots when I was younger, very average at anything shorter or longer.So at one point I was faster than MAC in my life?:51 for me
Was also good in the relays as we had good handoffs.
Wow, I assumed it was because the ones before the most recent WR run were mostly done with negative splits and it's pretty much accepted that was the optimal way to pace distance races, but apparently Makau went 61:45 / 61:53 for his 2:03:38. Although he ran a pretty crazy 5K between 25K and 30K (14:20) and had to slow down a bit towards the end. (that or he just cruised in when the record was in the bag)
His 5K splits - 14:36
14:41
14:34
14:39
14:48
14:20
14:38
14:59 (apparently this is what passed for Kenyans "hitting the wall"
Hang 10
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Just to chime in here, there's no way a negative split is optimal pacing for your typical or even super-typical distance guy. If you're anybody other than a world-class runner and you negative split a marathon, it's pretty much always because you sandbagged the first half. I negative-split my marathon PR last October, and I'll admit that with the benefit of hindsight I could have gone out a little faster.'SteveC702 said:
gruecd
Footballguy
Disagree. My sub-3 was a slight positive split. I think the negative split is definitely a viable strategy for the marathon.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You have a lot more experience (and much better times obviously) with this distance that I do. How far would you push this? Sub-3 is rarified company. Would you push a negative-split strategy for somebody who was in the 3:15 or 3:30 range? It just seems to me that the marathon and a to much lesser extent the half are events where a person should plan on slowing down at least a little over the course of race. Those few extra seconds that "typical" runner shaves off the last couple of miles could have been a bunch of extra seconds in the first several miles.
Sorry, in my original post I should have clarified that statement applied to world-class / world-record performances, although I would argue that it also applies to any distance races between 1500 meters and 10,000 meters on the track for runners of all abilities. There are a few credible marathon training book authors (Pfitz for instance) that thinks it's probably best for marathoners to aim for a 1-2% slowdown from the first half to the 2nd half of a marathon unless they are world class marathoners. I have seen 2:20-2:40 marathoners run their optimal races with a negative split before, but in general these are guys that are highly aerobically developed and pretty much ran their half-marathon PR + 2-3 minutes back-to-back. (if they had gone out even faster they would've come through within 2 minutes of their HM PR and pretty much a suicidal move even for world class runners).
It depends on the type of runner you are and how aerobically developed you are. Gruecd's times (notice how his marathon time is within 6 minutes of 2 x his HM time, or that his marathon pace is within 15% of his 5K pace) shows that he's much more slow-twitch / has a more aerobically developed system than most runners and can probably run close to his optimal marathon with a negative split strategy. Most runners probably don't have that level of dropoff (or lack of) from their shorter distance race performances to their marathon times. But in general if you positive by more than 2-3% in a marathon you went out too fast.
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At what distance would you aim for a positive split???
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