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Ran a 10k in June (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter GStrot
- Start date
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Door County has a Fall 50 (miler) ...paved roads, not trail. But it's a really nice event with a mix of ultras, pairs, and relay teams.
That's kind of what I'm thinking. I was watching the video of the Superior Trail race and thinking "holy $%#@ that's some serious terrain," and I'm sure that's not even half as bad as some of the more revered ultras. Of the two 50K's that I linked, I think the Surph the Murph would appear to be the easier of the two. It's within the Twin Cities metro run on a 16.8mile loop, so there shouldn't be any extreme elevation changes. The Wild Duluth 50K would be much cooler IMO being on the Superior Trail, but probably quite a bit tougher. Leaning the tougher route with the Wild Duluth 50K, just to be somewhere somewhat scenic and more challenging.
gruecd
Footballguy
If you're thinking next fall, do the Glacial Trail 50K/50M here in Wisconsin in October (link in my sig). I did the 50K last fall as my first ultra in the pouring rain. Great race. If you're thinking spring, I just completed my first-ever 50-miler at the Ice Age Trail 50K/50M this past May. Both are sponsored by the Badgerland Striders running group. Both are very affordable and very well organized, and the drive to either one should be less than 5 hours.Let me know if you have any questions. Happy to help!SayWhat? said:
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Thanks gruecd. I had actually seen both of those while looking, with the Glacial Trail 50K being the more tempting of the two (in the fall, and 50K < 50 miles!). I'll definitely consider that one, though the eastern side of Wisconsin is pushing the boundaries of it being a "convenient" first ultra (in terms of having family come with). Definitely an intriguing option though. Now that you've run a few others, what did you like about it?
My biggest issue is that I have no idea what to expect relative to road running distances. I've heard/read that long duration trail races are easier on the body, but more difficult due to the ascents/descents/terrain. How would you equate the first 26.2 miles of an ultra to a road marathon? Same? Marginally more difficult? Sigificantly more difficult?
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Well, you will, when you run the September Naperville trail HM with Juxt and me. It's a crushed gravel trail ...not technical, hilly single-track. At some point, you might want to drive a bit to the Waterfall Glen trail that circles Argonne Labs (9.5 miles, which Juxt and I just ran). One decent hill and a few rollers. You can find parking lots just south of I-55 on Cass or Lemont Rds. If you want some true single track, there's a whole slew of trails in the Palos area just south of Archer Ave. If I can find the link to the map system for it, I'll let you know.
beer 302
Footballguy
We've been discussing hydration lately and referenced the WS Hydration Chart a few times. Pretty easy to figure out if you're properly hydrated or not by color. For me, I drink between 96-120 oz of water a day not counting coffee, gatorade, etc. I typically run in a mid 140 suckex in the mornings and don't need to carry on anything under 10. If I run in the sun, pretty much anything over 4 requires hydration.
They are easier on the body because you are running slower often with walk breaks.
Personally I'd step right into the 50 miler. By the time you do a 50k, you're more than 60% of the way there. A 50k is basically just a marathon with an extended cool down. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a different experience.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Course map. It does loop a bit and I think you'll run fast enough to pass some of the slower runners between miles 9 and 10, IIRC. The race is small enough that it's not really a big problem.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Agreed and agreed. Unless you are an elite you'll be doing a good amount of walking in an ultra, especially at 50M and above. That variation of muscle group usage from alternating between running and walking, climbing and descending, and if it's on trail doing it all on somewhat "softer" ground can make it easier on the body than hammering out a road marathon. That being said, after 6-7-8 hours the body will hurt!
As for 50K v 50M, a strategy that I utilized this spring was to use a 50K as my longest training run for a 50 miler (about 5 weeks out). But I don't think it's necessary to do so, and I don't plan on anything longer than 20-25 miles in my current build to my next 50M in October.
Whatever you choose, to me the key to training is specificity - if you decide to do a hilly, technical trail ultra, then make sure a lot of your training is on that type of terrain. I also think it becomes much more about effort than pace, as you often just have to take what the trail gives you. For some experienced road runners who are used to hammering out miles at a given pace (I'm guessing, since I'm not one), that can be a hard thing to adjust to.
If you're looking for detailed training advice, gruecd and I both read Bryon Powell's Relentless Forward Progress, which includes a lot of good stuff from a range of experienced ultrarunners as well as several training plans. This article he wrote a few years ago gives some good advice on training for your first ultra as well. I'd also recommend subscribing to the Trail Runner Nation and Ultrarunner podcasts.
gruecd
Footballguy
And probably me. ###.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Thought about that after I posted, but the editing seems hit or miss now.And probably me. ###.
koby925
Footballguy
Didn't have much time tonight and it was still brutal outside so I hit the treadmill for my quick 3x1.5 workout. 1.5 warmup, 1.5 tempo, 1.5 cooldown.
Warmup and cooldown were high 7s low 8s pace. Goal was 10mph (6min pace) for 1.5 miles. I felt pretty good at around the 1.3 mark on the tempo so decided to extend it for a full 2 miles in a treadmill time of 11:55.
Warmup and cooldown were high 7s low 8s pace. Goal was 10mph (6min pace) for 1.5 miles. I felt pretty good at around the 1.3 mark on the tempo so decided to extend it for a full 2 miles in a treadmill time of 11:55.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Survived the 12 hour ride with 2 kids...but running took a back seat...only got the one run in Friday morning. Hopefully get back at least on the TM tonight.
Wife gets back tomorrow so will get back on track.
Grue...thought about trying to get in touch for a run...but my schedule up there was hectic and kept changing. Had to sneak a run in when I could and just headed out from the fam's house to do it.
Will definitely get in touch next trip up (probably after Christmas for our usual visit).
Wife gets back tomorrow so will get back on track.
Grue...thought about trying to get in touch for a run...but my schedule up there was hectic and kept changing. Had to sneak a run in when I could and just headed out from the fam's house to do it.
Will definitely get in touch next trip up (probably after Christmas for our usual visit).
sho nuff
Footballguy
As far as a race to do as a group sometime...
http://www.rockandroadmarathon.racesonline.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=site.display&page_id=5065
Have heard good things about this.
Gives the trail guys some things...the marathon guys who want a bit of a challenge...and those that want just a half or 1/4 of the marathon in the relay.
http://www.rockandroadmarathon.racesonline.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=site.display&page_id=5065
Have heard good things about this.
Gives the trail guys some things...the marathon guys who want a bit of a challenge...and those that want just a half or 1/4 of the marathon in the relay.
Questions for the trail and/or ultra crowd, specific towards training/completing a 50K with progression to 50 miler:
- Shoes: I've been running in ASICS Nimbus for what's likely been a decade or more. Is transitioning into trail specific shoes a no brainer for training/racing? Recommendations? Or do I just need to get into a local running store and speak with them?
- Hydration: Hydration pack, handheld bottle(s), or both? Recommendations?
- Others: Specific shirts, socks, or other gear that you love or feel is essential?
- Shoes: I've been running in ASICS Nimbus for what's likely been a decade or more. Is transitioning into trail specific shoes a no brainer for training/racing? Recommendations? Or do I just need to get into a local running store and speak with them?
- Hydration: Hydration pack, handheld bottle(s), or both? Recommendations?
- Others: Specific shirts, socks, or other gear that you love or feel is essential?
worrierking
Footballguy
Just checking in. I don't have nearly as many posts since I swore off complaining about the heat. Good luck everyone.
Hang 10
Footballguy
beer 302
Footballguy
Street shoes <> Trail shoes. They won't hold up so I'd recommend looking into trail specific shoes.
I'm looking into a hydration pack although if you carry or wear a fuel belt (and have access to refill) that may suit your tastes better.
Other than shoes there isn't anything gearwise that I don't use on the streets. If you don't have a headlamp you may want one but running attire is the same in my world.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Quick question about my ankle. I posted a while back that I sprained my ankle while running last Thursday. The swelling is gone now and I'm getting around pretty well. The odd thing is that it feels almost completely fine in the afternoon after I've been moving around a bit, but then the next morning it's still very stiff and gimpy when I get out of bed. Is that normal for this sort of injury? I usually associate that kind of pattern with tendonitis or something like that.
Also, I'm thinking about testing this out on Friday with a couple of very easy miles on the track (smooth, flat surface). Reasonable?
Also, I'm thinking about testing this out on Friday with a couple of very easy miles on the track (smooth, flat surface). Reasonable?
beer 302
Footballguy
I would guess there is still something going on there if you are waking up with issues. Try sleeping with it elevated for a night and see if it makes a difference?
That said, by all means, test it! You'll know in the first 1/4 mile if there are still issues. If it gives you problems shut it down and don't try to push it.
Arid Filch
Footballguy
It is normal for it to be stiff in the morning and then loosen up as you walk on it.
Arid Filch
Footballguy
I'd like to add my input regarding the discussion about always going all out versus purposeful running. Last year I ran the same 5K course 4-5 times a week for 4 months always trying to improve my time and I got to the point where I could run it under 19 minutes. I took 4 months off, but for the last 8 months I have been running with a group, a very slow group, 3 times a week, plus 1-2 times on my own where I run further and harder. Last week I had the opportunity to run my old 5K course. I had to quit before reaching 2.5 miles and I was barely on place to go under 21 minutes. I knew I was slower but had no idea it was this bad. It is hard to fight through the burning lungs, pounding chest, and heavy legs when it is a foreign feeling.
Certainly purposeful runs are good for avoiding injuries and slow and steady gains but if you want to get fast quick there is nothing like just going all out every time.
Certainly purposeful runs are good for avoiding injuries and slow and steady gains but if you want to get fast quick there is nothing like just going all out every time.
beer 302
Footballguy
I would respectfully disagree and get out of the way as the running elite in the thread trample me to get to a keyboard.
Shoes - Really depends on the type of trail. For groomed or gravel I stick with my running shoes. For big rocks and roots I go with trail shoes. The trail shoe will allow you to feel what's under you and hopefully give you enough time to do something before rolling an ankle. The problem with feeling things under your feet is that shaper rocks will hurt like heck. I did my 54 miler and 100 miler in heavier running shoes for comfort reasons. Most of my training is in trail shoes. I have 3 different types of trail shoes depending on the conditions.
Hydration - Packs can cause issues with running form and chaffing. I like the belts because of the pockets for food. The elites use the handhelds. I need my hands to break falls.
Other - A gel flask is nice to have for long training runs.
I can't recommend this belt enough http://www.rei.com/product/846112/salomon-xt-twin-hydration-belt,-bright-red/iron/white?preferredSku=8461120002&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-pla-_-product-_-8461120002&mr:referralID=699c10c5-ef2f-11e2-9dea-001b2166becc
The triangular bottles don't wiggle and for longer runs I upside the bottles. The pouch in front holds food, gel, car key, and salt tabs. Extra food, butt wipes, jacket, gloves, hat will fit in back pouch. There's a bunge which will hold more clothing.
Sand
Footballguy
Very normal. I lived like that for quite a while during my soccer days.
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Yet another tough ride in this heat yesterday - 92 or so at start, ~160 suck index. Nice ride though - 248w normalized for the good bits. Set a nice PR on one of the hard hill intervals we do. More importantly I dropped the group of 10 or so that I usually hang with - and then won the sprint at the bottom when the peloton caught up on the downhill part. And scorched the final sprint later on - I can't jump like the sprint guys can but seem to be able to hold mid-low power (4-500w) longer than some of those guys; on the longer fast parts I find I can catch them sometimes. Twas a good day. I fell asleep way earlier than normal - felt like a wrung out rag afterward.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Was supposed to team up and run the relay with a friend last year...but we had some scheduling conflicts with our kids and never did it.
This year it looks like its the end of fall break...we would be vacationing at some point...so not sure if it would affect us or not. Would like to run it sometime though...would also have to see about the soccer schedule as Im pretty sure my son will be playing that week (and me coaching)
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2Young2BBald
Footbaldguy
I'm not really, but still might if its an open weekend during cross country season. I'd love to do the 2-man relay with someone not looking for hardware. That looks like a fantastic event. Is there onsite camping?
sho nuff
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
6 wet disgusting miles today with only slight knee discomfort. Thigh is feeling much better so i didnt need to baby it, which i am sure helped the knee a ton. Also went much slower due to the 162 suckdix which had to help. Only wore one shirt too, big step for me. Dont know if I will continue that practice though.
How about 2 sleeveless shirts?
tri-man 47
Footballguy
BnB - in the picture, are they showing the front or back? Where does that hold thing rest - above the belt line, or do the bottles and pocket in between hang below the belt (which would seem to imply they're in the front)?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Well, I frequently train too stupidly to be considered "elite" but I'll throw my two cents in regardless.
I'm sure AF's training experiences are legit. However, from the little I know about 5K training I suspect he hasn't been doing the right combinations of "purposeful runs". The right combination of faster than 5K pace intervals, longer tempos and long slow stuff might have him be even faster than his earlier balls-to-the-wall training style.
Additionally, balls-to-the-wall is more effective the shorter the distance. You can do well in 5Ks that way but it can be a recipe for disaster when training for half marathons and longer races.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Have the same belt...loved it this past fall when my runs hit above 15 and the temps were up and I needed to carry enough water.
Sand
Footballguy
So tonight I had the brilliant idea of doing intervals. Started the evening with a 1500yd swim, which turned into 1100 when someone heard thunder. Never rained. So went out to the track at the Y, which is a funky 500yd track on the side of a hill (i.e. not flat). Did 2 miles, then 4 500yd intervals at what I calculate was the equivalent of 1:24-28 400m pace with slow lap jogs in between, then enough of a post run to get to 5 miles.
Since I don't do intervals I have no idea what those mean, but it did serve to break up the run. That was a good thing as I sweated enough to leave footprints - suck index hovered at 160 during the run. I'm anticipating having difficulty getting out of bed tomorrow.
So, I have finally joined the Summer ofSpeed Suck.
Since I don't do intervals I have no idea what those mean, but it did serve to break up the run. That was a good thing as I sweated enough to leave footprints - suck index hovered at 160 during the run. I'm anticipating having difficulty getting out of bed tomorrow.
So, I have finally joined the Summer of
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Shoes - unless you're running super technical mountain trails, don't go overboard on trail shoes - I remember buying some super built up, gore-tex shoes when I first started that turned out to be a total waste of money. That being said, finding a "hybrid" with a little extra tread on the bottom, maybe some extra in the midsole to protect from those sharp rocks, is not a bad idea. I love my Brooks Cascadias, great hybrid shoe that is comfortable on pavement (at least for the 1-2 miles I ever run on it on the way to/from the trailhead) but does fine on singletrack as well. But I also do my long stuff in Hokas, which are a whole different story all together.
Hydration really depends on preference, but it's important to consider how often you will be able to refill. Handhelds work great for shorter runs or those where you can refill regularly, and I try and use those in races if the aid stations are close enough that I can get by. I'll go with a handheld and a single bottle waist pack if it's going to be 60-90+ minutes between refill opportunities. And if I don't know, or it's just going to be a long day, I have a Nathan 2L hydration pack. The packs with bottles on the front are gaining in popularity, and I may check those out - they're easier to fill than a bladder at an aid station, but still give you the ability to carry multiple bottles and fuel.
Otherwise I do wear calf compression sleeves for longer runs, with the added bonus here in Northern California of protection from poison oak. I bought a pair of gaiters to help keep trail junk out of my shoes, but haven't actually tried them yet - but will do so and plan to wear them for my 50M. And body glide is huge when you're out there for many hours, I carry it and re-apply on hot runs in particular.
Nutrition at longer distances is ever more important but can be tricky, but that's totally an experiment of one. Try different things and find what works for you. I try to train with minimal calories as much as possible to try and ramp up my fat-burning systems, and then rely on liquid calories supplemented with aid station food (mostly Coke and potatoes dipped in salt) during races.
Only other quirk I can think of is that I carry candied ginger - when my stomach goes sideways several hours into a run, I'll pop that in my cheek and it seems to help settle it down enough to enable me to keep taking on hydration/nutrition.
Awesome advice from everyone on this board, and particularly this thread. That's why I love this place.
My biggest uncertainty with shoe selection is that I'm about a 1.5mi run to the nearest trails, which consist of a 50/50 mix of paved and single track (for mountain bikers). Yet the 50K that I'm leaning towards will be a bit more technical, and definitely no paved trails (Superior Hiking Trail on the north shore in Minnesota). Is something like the Cascadias that you recommend a decent option for this type of training and/or ultra? Any downside with as much pavement as they'll be hitting during training?
As for hydration, for marathon training I have used a Fuel Belt 6-bottle waist belt. It's done fine, but I don't feel like I've seen many trail/ultra runners using that sort of belt (too bulky? too bouncy? not enough storage?), so that's why I asked. I was actually checking out the Ultimate Direction hydration packs with the bottles in the front that you linked, just yesterday. I like that concept, and assume that wouldn't impact your running motion much being that the primary bulk of the weight would be either be centered in the front on your chest (w/ just two bottles filled) or equally front/back (with two bottles filled and a reservoir)?
And candied ginger? Hmmm. Never heard of such a thing. Where would one purchase candied ginger?
Thanks again everyone!
koby925
Footballguy
I think I commented on this before. Going hard or near all out and shorter distances almost every run will be more beneficial to racing in the short term vs running purposeful but not as beneficial in the long term as running more purposefully.
Anecdotal eveidence - If I train that way (and I have), I will always be in the 18s, no more no less, for 5k, which is great. If I train more purposefully, my first races (like this year) may be 19:XX+ but it will eventually get me to the 17s - I think/ hope I am there now. To add to what Jux said, if I train hard all the time, I think my 10k would be around 39 flat and I'd run 1:26-1:28 for a Half. With more purposeful training, I ran 37:44 and 1:22:05. I personally need that big build up of base if I am going to run anything over 5k close to my best.
Your own personal goals and the time you have to dedicate will of course determine what you can do. If you don't have a ton of time but want to maintain being pretty competive (for yourself) consistently, I see no problem with the approach. But if you want to see what you can do long term, count me in the camp that strongly advocates purposeful training.
koby925
Footballguy
Agree with Arid. Ivan, you may want to consider running after you've had a long period of walking around or, if you run in the morning, using a hot whirlpool or heating pad to warm it up.
Ankles and plantar facciitis (my other nemesis) are brutal in the morning but get more tolerable as you loosen up.
worrierking
Footballguy
I agree with everything Koby said. Well put. Let me add that different runners respond to different training based on their own individual physiology and current fitness. I just ran a four-miler in warm temperatures at a pace (7:17), which is faster than my 5k PR. I did it without having run anything faster than a 10:30 pace for the preceding six weeks. I was just base-building with high mileage slow runs and pulled a great race out of my keyster. The more I run and train, the more I realize that I can get by and probably I am better off just running a lot of slow miles and adding just a small bit of race-specific training before a race. I stay healthy that way and when I run some fast stuff on fatigued legs, I make substantial gains quickly. Not everybody will find this to work for them.koby925 said:
Sand
Footballguy
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