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One of my mutual fund reps called the other day wanting to meet with me. Typically these guys are just a waste of my time, but I know that this particular rep was a runner in college, so I told him that if he wants to meet with me, he can run with me. Meeting him for a 7-miler at 4:00.That's what you call killing two birds with one stone.
He probably drank in college, too, so when you're done running ... 
Seriously?I tried to do some 5x400 today. Fastest I got was 5:58 and I never lasted an entire 400 
First off 2 min/100 isn't all that slow. In a typical tri field that is solidly mid pack.Second, it depends on what you have on, but yes, a drag suit can easily change your position. It will tend to drag your legs down and give you a bit of a double whammy effect, particularly at those speeds. Next time try with a good suit on and just see how much faster you are at the same effort level and check back in. During the swim try and see if the good suit lets your legs sit higher.BTW, you are far from the first or last person to say "they don't get it". Swimming = golf. Develop the right stroke and it looks all too easy and effortless (it isn't, but it does look good). BTWx2, if you ever get the hankering get a kid of yours to take a video of you swimming and post it. I'd be happy to give a rundown of what to work on. You can make big improvements, but it is more technical than the other two sports, by far.-----Funny enough I did more swimming tonight - 2000yds done. ;-) Tried a set of 150s tonight, 'cause I was bored with 100s and 200s and really had no interest in 500s. Managed a bunch of those at 2:00-2:02 or so in the drag suit. Actually felt better after the workout than before. I think the chlorine is burning out all the crap in my lungs.
You sure your watch was working? A 6 minute 400 is equivalent to about a 25 minute mile. Or a pretty slow walk.(BTW, I am taking credit for all of tri-man's progress. I've obviously gotten him so agitated over the :02 difference that he's ultra-motivated now.)
I do think it was good though. I certainly have a different kind of soreness in different area of my legs then I am used to.
I was wearing a good suit (thinking about getting a drag suit)
Thanks for the offer on the video. May take you up on that.
When developing proper form I'd recommend not using a drag suit. As I said, nothing wrong with your speed. Definitely not inI was wearing a good suit (thinking about getting a drag suit)
territory. Not by a long shot. If you want to see just come watch me try and breaststroke.
Whats the goal?IMO 200m is not really worth the effort for most things.400m for 5k and 10ks.800m for halfs and above IMO.
I think you should do them all, plus some more all the way up to mile repeats. 5Ks are like controlled sprints. The shorter intervals will help improve leg turnover, which will play a big part now that you've got a solid endurance base from your marathon training. Getting up into the longer intervals will help you train to sustain that faster turnover for a longer period of time.I'd only do intervals once a week. I like the 1mi up/down for any track workout. Then do things like 10-12x200, 6-8x400, 4-5x800, etc. (not all in 1 day!). You can get fancy and do some ladder drills where you start at some 200 repeats, go up to 400, 800, or 1000 and then climb back down. Ladders are my favorite track workouts.Follow tri-man's posts. He's doing some quality work right now and would be a great model to follow.
Thanks for the info...What kind of rest in between? Do you walk, jog? And for how long?
Maybe he meant that the fastest he got was 5:58 pace???You sure your watch was working? A 6 minute 400 is equivalent to about a 25 minute mile. Or a pretty slow walk.I tried to do some 5x400 today. Fastest I got was 5:58 and I never lasted an entire 400
Either walking or jogging is fine. I'm guessing that almost all of us jog during our recovery, but there's nothing wrong with walking, especially if you're new to speedwork. Your recovery period should be about 75%-100% as long, time-wise, as each interval. So if you're running 800s at 3:30 each, you should plan on something like 3:00 of recovery, give or take. It doesn't need to be super-exact. When I do 800s on a track, for example, I jog one lap after each interval. That's a little bit more recovery than what would be optimal, but it makes it easy to do the repeats since the start/finish line is always in the same spot.
So I find out that my rep was an NCAA DII All-American in track and cross country. Like a 14-minute 5K and 30- or 31-minute 10K guy. He's 32 now, and he only runs recreationally, but he's talking about trying to get "back into shape" so he can run a "decent" marathon in the 2:40s or something. Sheesh.Anyway, obviously ended up running the 7-mile faster than planned. I think we averaged 7:36/mile, but we were under 7-minute pace at the end. I've got a 12-miler on tap in the 77-degree heat this afternoon. :sweaty:One of my mutual fund reps called the other day wanting to meet with me. Typically these guys are just a waste of my time, but I know that this particular rep was a runner in college, so I told him that if he wants to meet with me, he can run with me. Meeting him for a 7-miler at 4:00.That's what you call killing two birds with one stone.
I now work with two guys like this. One of them was disappointed this fall when he was unable to finish better than 2nd in a local 5K with 400 or so participants.
That would put him not too terribly far away from what tri-man did. And a 5:58 pace for some 400s is pretty sporty, in any case.Maybe he meant that the fastest he got was 5:58 pace???You sure your watch was working? A 6 minute 400 is equivalent to about a 25 minute mile. Or a pretty slow walk.I tried to do some 5x400 today. Fastest I got was 5:58 and I never lasted an entire 400
See..I disagree on recovery and try to do no more than half the time of recovery than interval time...and usually shoot for closer to 1/3 of the interval time as recovery.
I worked with our Irish office for years and was close with a speedster. I remember him talking like this where he was disappointed because he came in 14th in some big $$ race where the only guys in front of him were all Kenyans. I was able to find some of his results.I now work with two guys like this. One of them was disappointed this fall when he was unable to finish better than 2nd in a local 5K with 400 or so participants.
But I also have looked at the times I need to run to compete in this CARA race circuit here in Chicago. If I start the year sub-Sand (<20:29), I might be able to compete near the top of my age group. It's probably been twenty years since I put this kind of focus on the shorter races (and a run-only focus), so I'm eager to see what comes of it.
'tri-man 47 said:Sand, yes, you're motivating me.
Go crush dreams!
. Then #2 had me even more . I finally found my footing on the 4th one. It's always interesting to me that my HR doesn't get fully revved up until the 2nd interval. I'd love to do these on a track someday instead of looping around the neighborhoods. Hitting some of the small hills stings on these workouts.
Had this happen once too. Got to a live voice quick, that was very pleasant, and the charge was removed quick. It is still
the way they sneak it in, and you have to check every time you enter. Active is very much the Ticketmaster of racing. A couple of RDs around here have had it with them and developed their own systems.
Just keep swimming. As with running, keep adding volume and intensity. You can handle more intensity swimming than biking and running - so don't be afraid to do some hard sets. BTW, it really does look easy when you've got the technique. It isn't.I don't understand the comment that his legs were coming apart. Or at least I'm more than likely misunderstanding what you are trying to convey.
I am probably writing it wrong. My fastest avg pace was 5:58. My watch was not set to 400's per say. I just know one long block here is a 400. I was trying to go balls out for that one "block" rest then repeat. I never made the full 400 so I think I need to try to do it at a slower pace yet fast enough to be uncomfortable.You sure your watch was working? A 6 minute 400 is equivalent to about a 25 minute mile. Or a pretty slow walk.(BTW, I am taking credit for all of tri-man's progress. I've obviously gotten him so agitated over the :02 difference that he's ultra-motivated now.)
I do think it was good though. I certainly have a different kind of soreness in different area of my legs then I am used to.
yesMaybe he meant that the fastest he got was 5:58 pace???You sure your watch was working? A 6 minute 400 is equivalent to about a 25 minute mile. Or a pretty slow walk.I tried to do some 5x400 today. Fastest I got was 5:58 and I never lasted an entire 400
This is what I suspected. Thanks for your input.'tri-man 47 said:Interesting chatter here! I'd be quite certain prosopis maxed out at a 5:58/mile pace when experimenting with some 400m repeats. Prosopis, as you learned, that's not the right pace for your training at this point. You did learn an important lesson - you're hurting in new areas, and that means those muscles are not used to being engaged in that manner. That's the point. The interval training stretches and works the muscles differently ...you break them down, and they heal up stronger. Over time, the stronger muscles will allow you to speed up your longer runs or just run longer because it's less effort. So keep at it ...but not so fast yet!
jb - lots of advice above already. You could even just start with some 100 yard accelerations. This lets you avoid the turns, and you avoid the risk of slipping into bad form. As you accelerate, focus on the foot strike (avoid a heavy heel strike), keep the steps light and quick, don't overstride, do let the legs kick back, keep the arms at about a 90 degree angle, feel the arms rocking straight forward and back (not side to side across your body), relax the hands. Don't go into an all-out sprint. Just accelerate with a good stride and rhythm, then let it wind down. Walk back, and repeat a few/several times. You won't get overly winded, so you can stay focused. Just get the feel of good form. Then you can start to work that into 200m, 400m, or longer. As Sand notes, swimming is all about good form. But running has a lot of that too. Over time, the track work will translate to better pacing on all runs.
I agree with Ned on the shorter rests ...I prefer that I stay a bit uncomfortable as I move through the repeats. Better to control the pace than to lengthen the rest.
Sand, yes, you're motivating me.
I was for sure experimenting.
I bet that rep does not have many clients who can hang with him at those speeds. Pretty cool that you could. Then 12 miles in the same day as 7So I find out that my rep was an NCAA DII All-American in track and cross country. Like a 14-minute 5K and 30- or 31-minute 10K guy. He's 32 now, and he only runs recreationally, but he's talking about trying to get "back into shape" so he can run a "decent" marathon in the 2:40s or something. Sheesh.Anyway, obviously ended up running the 7-mile faster than planned. I think we averaged 7:36/mile, but we were under 7-minute pace at the end. I've got a 12-miler on tap in the 77-degree heat this afternoon. :sweaty:One of my mutual fund reps called the other day wanting to meet with me. Typically these guys are just a waste of my time, but I know that this particular rep was a runner in college, so I told him that if he wants to meet with me, he can run with me. Meeting him for a 7-miler at 4:00.That's what you call killing two birds with one stone.
That max hr does seem low. How did you come up with it?I keep my hr for long runs in the 127-137 range. Max hr probably in the 180-185 range, lacate threshold at 167. The problem I have with Pfitz is that the ranges are too broad. 10-20% slower is too wide and 14-16 bpm crosses two (possibly three training zones). What was your hr on the 1/2 marathon?
I came up with the max by running 800 meters all out, walking for a couple mins, then running another 800m all out uphill. It was a suggested method. Someone suggested wearing a HRM during a 5K race and seeing how high I get. Gonna try that.Regardless, if my max were 180 or higher that would make the numbers line up even less because my long run HR would need to be more like 145. I would need to be doing long runs well under 9min/miles to get that and that would be too fast.Didn't have a HRM when I ran the half. I start to feel some strain at 150 and I was definitely under that the whole race. Above 160 is difficult for me to maintain for more than a few miles. I seem to have a very non-linear HR curve.
I'm still in the minority on this one, but forget McMillan when you're looking at your first second and maybe even third marathon. Unless you're a grue type machine, of course. I think the calc is far too aggressive when trying to get an idea on your marathon goals. Another small but dangerous misconception is the difference between MP and GMP. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Pfitz book says to run your LR based on the 10-20% of MP, not GMP (it's an advanced book, so it assumes you've run a few marathons already). If your GMP is way off, you're now training either too fast or too slow. It's a big problem for first marathoners. There's no exact science and is probably the second hardst part to running your first marathon.My biggest failure on my first was setting my GMP too fast. I should've been training slower than I was, but got sucked into the calculators. When in doubt, go slower on your long runs.
Another simple perspective: For my marathon training, my slow/easy pace was about 45 seconds/mile slower than my marathon pace.
The 5k race won't get your max hr, but the average of the last half will get you close to your lacate threshold.If your max is around 180, your long runs should be in the low 130s. Zone 1 base building area and a great place to teach your body to utilize fat for fuel. The 140s is basically a dead zone...too slow to gain speed, too fast for a long run in a heavy run period. The 150 is your tempo area and you should feel some strain. 160 range should be approach lactate threshold. You shouldn't be able to atay in the upper end more than a few miles and even the lower end much over an hour would be difficult.So summing it up, I don't think you should be targeting 141, more like 135 and that assumes you're in the low 180 max area. Recovery runs should stay under 130. Rest up and hit those tempo and interval runs hard.
I'm curious why you say this.
I guess in theory it could. A properly run 5k race will be uncomfortable most of the way, but a relatively balanced effort. You just won't have the juice in your body to eek out those last few heartbeats. We always say we're sprinting the last part, but it's not our best sprint unless we've sandbagged the rest of the rest.I think you would be more likely to get there running a shorter time period and then mashing it at the end. Sprint effort, arms pumping too.eta: Although I never done this during VO2 max testing / lacate threshold testing all the way to max hr, the protocol is to increase the effort every 30 or 60 seconds.
Interesting. I'm gonna have to pony up the $ and go get tested, because I have a hard time understanding how a 5K wouldn't milk out your max. I've tried the 'at home' HR max tests and can't get anywhere close to the max I hit at the end of a good 5K. I don't think there's anything "balanced" about a 5K. I think if you're feeling balanced, you're holding back too much.
The max HR I've hit has been in 5ks (189 or so). And I
at "uncomfortable" If by that you mean "your body filled with the heat of 1000 suns" then I agree.I am in agreement with Ned on this. I think the pacing is the hardest part of running, period. I also think that the first couple of marathons or training cycles are finding out what your body can handle and do during the cycle. You basically just need to get into consistant training in order to understand, one, what it takes to do it and two, establish that base that you can build off of. I am trying to explain this to my brother as he goes through his first marathon training cycle as well. That first time through you are growing so much as a runner, you probably will be improving so much as a runner, your paces will shift as the training goes on. Your peaks and valleys during the cycle will probably be much greater during the first couple of cycles. I am experiencing this now even as I am training for my 5th one. Since last year was kind of an off year, I am all over the place and have no idea on my pacing for this round. If you read into the numbers that get posted on this board, everyone has ups and downs in their training. There are just too many factors that go into it to hit every one perfect every day. Over the long haul, you will get it down eventually. It is the rare runner who gets it down right away, but it does happen.----------------As for me, I am going through a rough week. I am just tired and am not feeling my race on Sunday. Mostly, I am just tired and need to get some rest. Did 6 miles yesterday and am taking two days off until Saturday to get some shake out miles done. I may get a few miles in tomorrow as I feel I am lacking this week, but it will be a spur of the moment type of thing.Have a great day all.'Ned said:
Hell, I'm hoping not to max out my HR in the first mile of this upcoming 5k.______________So after a night of drinking beer and eating crawfish I decided I should get up and give the interval run a shot. Mile warm up 10:40 HR 1281st 400 1:43 (avg pace 7:00) avg HR 167 max 1741:38 walk2nd 400 1:43 avg HR 164 max 1791:40 walk3rd 400 1:44 avg HR 161 max 1782:01 walk4th 400 1:45 avg HR 155 max 171Then a short jog home. I was a little short on time, I was wanting to do at least 6. I know thats probably more detail than yall need, but I just wanted to make sure I'm doing these things right. That look about right?'Sand said:The max HR I've hit has been in 5ks (189 or so). And I'BassNBrew said:
Assuming your 5K pace is at or a little more than 7:00, than that looks good. If you're walking the rests, I'd cut the rest time in half. Look at what that 2:01 rest did to your HR for the 4th interval. You want to keep the HR up higher to get the desired effect.Now that you got your feet wet, I'd shoot for 6-8 repeats the next time.Hell, I'm hoping not to max out my HR in the first mile of this upcoming 5k.______________So after a night of drinking beer and eating crawfish I decided I should get up and give the interval run a shot. Mile warm up 10:40 HR 1281st 400 1:43 (avg pace 7:00) avg HR 167 max 1741:38 walk2nd 400 1:43 avg HR 164 max 1791:40 walk3rd 400 1:44 avg HR 161 max 1782:01 walk4th 400 1:45 avg HR 155 max 171Then a short jog home. I was a little short on time, I was wanting to do at least 6. I know thats probably more detail than yall need, but I just wanted to make sure I'm doing these things right. That look about right?'Sand said:The max HR I've hit has been in 5ks (189 or so). And I'BassNBrew said:
Yeah, I didn't intend to walk that long. I did find it odd my HR decreased with each one. Based on that little info, are you saying my 5k pace should be 7:00ish? Or does interval pace usually translate into 5k pace? I actually really enjoyed this run, its a nice change of pace. side note: active.com refunded my money. Kinda shady thing to do, but was simple to get the refund.
Well done!!! I would say your 400m intervals should be at a pace that's about 20-30 seconds/mile faster than 5K pace. If you stick with this, your number of reps will increase, so don't sweat that. Intervals ARE a good change of pace. The speed part is hard, but the rests feel good and the whole workout is extremely gratifying.I was back on the track today for 3 sets of 4 x 400m @ :89/90. One minute rests between the 400s ..2 minute walk/jog between each set. This is really feeling good. The effort is controlled, and the stride feels full and fluid.Yeah, I didn't intend to walk that long. I did find it odd my HR decreased with each one. Based on that little info, are you saying my 5k pace should be 7:00ish? Or does interval pace usually translate into 5k pace? I actually really enjoyed this run, its a nice change of pace. side note: active.com refunded my money. Kinda shady thing to do, but was simple to get the refund.
