Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Ran a 10k in June (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter GStrot
- Start date
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Runs, not really.
For races, really all I do is something like a 400 20 minutes before, and another 400 about 5 minutes before. Not fast. No stretching before, just warmups.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
During my daughter's lacrosse practice today I ran 5 miles....on the roads. It was flat and boring and there were cars. It was miserable, made worse by being able to see hills and trails not far away, but I don't know where the trail heads are. I'll be consulting the google machine before I run during her practice again.
Heading to Portland for the rest of the week as Pops went home today, two months to the day since his accident. He still has a lot of therapy and rehab to go, but he seems to be doing better. But he's a handful when he isn't cognitively challenged, so l'll be up there to help out my mom. And hopefully squeeze in a few runs in Forest Park.
Heading to Portland for the rest of the week as Pops went home today, two months to the day since his accident. He still has a lot of therapy and rehab to go, but he seems to be doing better. But he's a handful when he isn't cognitively challenged, so l'll be up there to help out my mom. And hopefully squeeze in a few runs in Forest Park.
Oh after getting the news I get to run my first marathon in the great city of Chicago, I decided I should probably go for a run today.
Being all motivated I went for my first night-time and cold weather run of the year.... on April 14th. Got a nice ~4 miles in on a 32 degree, snowy day here in the Midwest. I really like running at night. Its nice to just turn off the music and hear nothing but my own penis breathing for once since there are no cars/people/dogs etc. out and about. And I also realized when i got back to the house that I lost my phone during my run. Apparently my shorts really do have holes in the pockets. I luckily found it on a sidewalk about a mile away from the house, but the screen is shattered and it was soaking wet. I'm gonna be pretty upset if I can't recover some recent photos of my boys.
Being all motivated I went for my first night-time and cold weather run of the year.... on April 14th. Got a nice ~4 miles in on a 32 degree, snowy day here in the Midwest. I really like running at night. Its nice to just turn off the music and hear nothing but my own penis breathing for once since there are no cars/people/dogs etc. out and about. And I also realized when i got back to the house that I lost my phone during my run. Apparently my shorts really do have holes in the pockets. I luckily found it on a sidewalk about a mile away from the house, but the screen is shattered and it was soaking wet. I'm gonna be pretty upset if I can't recover some recent photos of my boys.
Ned
Footballguy
Need to rest more than a day after a HM, IMO. Two at a minimum.
There's nothing fitness-wise you're really going to gain in the next 2 weeks, so don't push it. Just get a few slow runs in and maybe a short tempo run. Otherwise, you're just looking to get to the line healthy.
wilked
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
beer 302
Footballguy
Sand
Footballguy
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
What school does she practice at? I can give you some advice depending on which one.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
She's at Sinaloa usually, and San Marin every once in a while.
But I'll take advice on any Novato trails that are good running - I'm looking to move up there in the next few months.
TIA
gruecd
Footballguy
Running way from the back....4th corral in the 4th wave. Start around 11:25 EST. Bib #30152. Probably gonna end up running 3:50ish.
gruecd
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
From Sinaloa you can pick up the 1/2 marathon route and make it a nice 10 mile loop. Just start off at the school, wilson and vineyard, and then your on that route. Or you can drive that route until Indian Valley road turns into a fire road, at that point park and you are at the top of this linked map of the open space (the arrow towards Wilson) http://www.marincounty.org/~/media/Images/Departments/PK/Open%20Space/Indian%20Valley/IndianValley033113.pdf
I would reccomend taking Indian Valley fire road up to the pacheco pond trail (make a right after you pass the last softball field, you will run by the school farm, the next 3/4 to a mile of the run is all up hill. I usually come down the waterfall trail until it hits back at the fire road, I've never ventured off towards the Susan Alexander trail.
http://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/373987839
tri-man 47
Footballguy
= "I'm undertrained and need a couple of pacers."
I think Workhorse will be running for charity again as well (in addition to the two of you plus Steve). wilked, which one are you in the pic?
Sand
Footballguy
Well, hopefully not the hot chick, 'cause then I'll be embarrassed.= "I'm undertrained and need a couple of pacers."
I think Workhorse will be running for charity again as well (in addition to the two of you plus Steve). wilked, which one are you in the pic?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Worse still, she could be one of the other chicks.Well, hopefully not the hot chick, 'cause then I'll be embarrassed.= "I'm undertrained and need a couple of pacers."
I think Workhorse will be running for charity again as well (in addition to the two of you plus Steve). wilked, which one are you in the pic?
Last edited by a moderator:
Sand
Footballguy
Wait, wilked is a girl? Maybe I should be hoping she's the hot chick.Worse still, she could be one of the other chicks.Well, hopefully not the hot chick, 'cause then I'll be embarrassed.= "I'm undertrained and need a couple of pacers."
I think Workhorse will be running for charity again as well (in addition to the two of you plus Steve). wilked, which one are you in the pic?
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
wilked
Footballguy
Guy in the back right standing on tip toes...= "I'm undertrained and need a couple of pacers."
I think Workhorse will be running for charity again as well (in addition to the two of you plus Steve). wilked, which one are you in the pic?
The 'hot chick' is exactly twice the age of the gal in the tanktop
The team ended up on runnersworld as well, check out :25 here
http://www.runnersworld.com/boston-marathon/watch-boston-runners-mark-bombing-anniversary
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Getting stoked for all you Boston runners. Sucks I'll be in the air flying back from Portland and unable to track live, but I can't wait to hear the stories and reports.
I didn't have much time today between work and getting ready to head to the airport, but I shook off yesterday's road run with a quick jaunt in much more comfortable environs. I feel better now.
I didn't have much time today between work and getting ready to head to the airport, but I shook off yesterday's road run with a quick jaunt in much more comfortable environs. I feel better now.
Sand
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Alright you real runners, this wanna-be runner is having a halfway decent start to the week.
Doing a 5k this coming saturday, goal time of 27 flat.
Took some advice and started the week with a 5 mile slow run at about 10 min pace yesterday.
Today (on a treadmill which sucks, but it is F'ing SNOWING) I did a half mile warmup, six half milers at 8 minute pace, and another half mile cool down. I would have done more, felt like I could have done a couple more, but kinda wanted to gauge how sore I would be. If not terribly sore I will do 8 or 10 of them next week and maybe throw in a couple quarter milers at a little faster pace.
Tomorrow I planned for another long slow run, wanted to do 5 miles but will go 6 if I don't feel like shooting myself in the head after 5 miles.
friday will probably do 3 easy miles then the race saturday..............so what is a good workout for thursday??
Doing a 5k this coming saturday, goal time of 27 flat.
Took some advice and started the week with a 5 mile slow run at about 10 min pace yesterday.
Today (on a treadmill which sucks, but it is F'ing SNOWING) I did a half mile warmup, six half milers at 8 minute pace, and another half mile cool down. I would have done more, felt like I could have done a couple more, but kinda wanted to gauge how sore I would be. If not terribly sore I will do 8 or 10 of them next week and maybe throw in a couple quarter milers at a little faster pace.
Tomorrow I planned for another long slow run, wanted to do 5 miles but will go 6 if I don't feel like shooting myself in the head after 5 miles.
friday will probably do 3 easy miles then the race saturday..............so what is a good workout for thursday??
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
Took yesterday off after the Half on Sunday and went for 5 today. I was feeling it at first and then WHAM my legs turned to cement.
M1 8:15
M2 8:02
M3 8:40
M4 8:57
M5 8:52
The funny thing is that I never was really breathing hard, I just had no legs at all after 2.5 miles. I need to drop about 15 lbs so that I can get to sub 8 min miles. :bloated:
M1 8:15
M2 8:02
M3 8:40
M4 8:57
M5 8:52
The funny thing is that I never was really breathing hard, I just had no legs at all after 2.5 miles. I need to drop about 15 lbs so that I can get to sub 8 min miles. :bloated:
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So by saying to do 3 miles tempo, that means..............
MAC_32
Footballguy
Freshness > fitness. Wont do anything now to help Saturday. Diet is the only controllable variable at this point.
Ned
Footballguy
Your body is telling you to rest. The general rule of thumb is a day off for every hour raced; round it up. When you start running again, go slow. Don't jump right back into a HM paced run; you're asking to get injured. Check the pride at the door and run the first couple of runs at a 10:00 or slower. Your legs will thank you.
FWIW, When I started racing HMs, it took me a solid week to feel back to 100% again.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
ghost, since you're training right through the races, I'd support the idea of a tempo run ...something slower than 5K pace, but with a firm effort.
--
I had an extra pair of compression socks (bought a new 2-pack recently, but they're a bit too short for my long legs) ...so gave an unopened pair today to a freshman soccer player at my university who's a student worker in my office ...and who had been commenting on sore calves. His recent email to me:
You weren't lying when you said the socks were a secret weapon! I had one of my best practices of the season with them on. They were comfortable and my calves felt great after practice. Thank you for showing me the secret to maintaining fresh legs throughout a workout.
It's crazy how a pair of socks can make such a difference!
Thanks again,
Sonny
--
I had an extra pair of compression socks (bought a new 2-pack recently, but they're a bit too short for my long legs) ...so gave an unopened pair today to a freshman soccer player at my university who's a student worker in my office ...and who had been commenting on sore calves. His recent email to me:
You weren't lying when you said the socks were a secret weapon! I had one of my best practices of the season with them on. They were comfortable and my calves felt great after practice. Thank you for showing me the secret to maintaining fresh legs throughout a workout.
It's crazy how a pair of socks can make such a difference!
Thanks again,
Sonny
tri-man 47
Footballguy
2Young - how are those once a week run + cross-training workouts working out? And how's the boy's track season??
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Sand
Footballguy
Tempo = comfortably uncomfortable run. Though thinking about it I would probably do a semi-fast/semi-easy run. I always like to do some thing fast before race (to feel fast), but you don't want to stress the legs to the point that you're not fresh.
Everything is mental now. You want to hit the start line feeling fast, fit, and fresh. And prepared to lay out a proper 5k effort (i.e. really effin' fast the first mile, holding on the second, and feeling like about to burn to a cinder while vomiting the third).
IMO,
5k Saturday.
3 mile super easy run Sunday.
3 mile faster run Mon.
5 mile long run Tue
3 mile easy run Wed
6 mile long run Thu
Rest Friday.
Or something like that. To add mileage just make 3=4, etc.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Intervals?? I do kinda like the idea of doing shorter faster intervals once a week. To keep my brain fresh. So any schedule involving that is A OK.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sand
Footballguy
At the mileage you are at you certainly don't need intervals. But if you like them make your fast day an interval day. Whatever gets you out there.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Find a track, and try some repeats ...400m (and rest for the same time period in between) ...800m (with a rest almost of the same time) ...do a ladder of 200m, 400m, 800m, 400m, 200m. Try some different things over time, and you'll figure out what you like best.
chauncey
Footballguy
Since you guys are giving some good advice to Ghost on training let me throw my hat in the ring.
I'm averaging 31 miles a week, 10:09 pace. Basically I go "jog" 5-6 miles 3-4 times a week and do a long run on weekend increasing 1 mile/wk. This past Sunday was 13 miles. My running goal for the year is to do 12 halves, broke the 2hr mark on most recent one (8:46 pace), looking to get in 8:45 pace by summer, 8:30 pace by fall, and 8:00 pace by Jan '15. I have no running experience or training so these goals may be a little high or low.
So with the goal of increasing my pace, my question is should I incorporate tempo runs and intervals at same time or start with one for a few weeks to get adjusted and then incorporate the other. I'd like to keep the long run (increasing 1mi/wk) on the weekends until I get to 20 and then sign up for a full marathon sometime in the second half of year.
Part of me feels like a real big ##### for running so slow. I don't know if I'm just being lazy with myself or if that is just my natural pace. Like I said, never ran in high school or anything organized. I could stand to lose a little weight (6'0/195) and stop smoking/drinking so much, these would probably help my speed as well.
Thanks for any advice.
(Will probably sign up for the NM/TX half this Saturday, haven't done any prep other than getting in 30+ miles weekly and don't really have a goal for it, but I'd kinda like to participate in a running event this weekend. ETA: looks like my 8:46 pace would have garnered 2nd place in my age group last year, may have to go get a medal
). Congrats to all who qualified for Boston this year and you three or four who will be there running.
I'm averaging 31 miles a week, 10:09 pace. Basically I go "jog" 5-6 miles 3-4 times a week and do a long run on weekend increasing 1 mile/wk. This past Sunday was 13 miles. My running goal for the year is to do 12 halves, broke the 2hr mark on most recent one (8:46 pace), looking to get in 8:45 pace by summer, 8:30 pace by fall, and 8:00 pace by Jan '15. I have no running experience or training so these goals may be a little high or low.
So with the goal of increasing my pace, my question is should I incorporate tempo runs and intervals at same time or start with one for a few weeks to get adjusted and then incorporate the other. I'd like to keep the long run (increasing 1mi/wk) on the weekends until I get to 20 and then sign up for a full marathon sometime in the second half of year.
Part of me feels like a real big ##### for running so slow. I don't know if I'm just being lazy with myself or if that is just my natural pace. Like I said, never ran in high school or anything organized. I could stand to lose a little weight (6'0/195) and stop smoking/drinking so much, these would probably help my speed as well.
Thanks for any advice.
(Will probably sign up for the NM/TX half this Saturday, haven't done any prep other than getting in 30+ miles weekly and don't really have a goal for it, but I'd kinda like to participate in a running event this weekend. ETA: looks like my 8:46 pace would have garnered 2nd place in my age group last year, may have to go get a medal
). Congrats to all who qualified for Boston this year and you three or four who will be there running.
Last edited by a moderator:
chauncey
Footballguy
Also, I enjoyed the responses to the running etiquette question. I admire the attitude of you guys and have started running in front of all cars that are turning now. The other day I had a car coming at me head on (I was against traffic in the bike lane, she was in the bike lane a hundred yards before a right turn) and I was giving the driver the death stare and motioning her to move over into the car lane. It was a true game of chicken. I lost. I did cuss and yell at her and hit her car with my water bottle as she passed me. It was the perfect opportunity to jump on her hood, roof, and back of car all in stride. Next time.
Over the past week I've had one emergency mid-run desert diarrhea (wiped with a grocery store flyer that was drifting in the wind), one kid tell me to "run forest run", several vatos yell at me to put my shirt on, and at least 37 whistles and catcalls from offdee 10's who were 'mirin my physique.
Over the past week I've had one emergency mid-run desert diarrhea (wiped with a grocery store flyer that was drifting in the wind), one kid tell me to "run forest run", several vatos yell at me to put my shirt on, and at least 37 whistles and catcalls from offdee 10's who were 'mirin my physique.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Call me chicken, but I'd rather go into the grass than risk getting hit. (this is usually followed with a bird of a different feather)
Seems there are 4 types of drivers when it comes to seeing a runner.
1. The drivers we love, they get into the left turn lane or far enough over that you know you're safe with plenty of time.
2. The drivers that make us somewhat uneasy but give a few feet, you won't get hit but it's closer than you'd like.
3. The drivers you hate that seem to ignore you or expect you to move over onto the sidewalk/grass/river.
4. The drivers you really hate. you know see you because they're staring at you, you make eye contact and going to where they're looking - RIGHT AT YOU. Whether these are #######s or just stupid (people do tend to go where they look) isn't always clear, but these people are downright scary.
:X
FUBAR
Footballguy
A few thoughts.Since you guys are giving some good advice to Ghost on training let me throw my hat in the ring.
I'm averaging 31 miles a week, 10:09 pace. Basically I go "jog" 5-6 miles 3-4 times a week and do a long run on weekend increasing 1 mile/wk. This past Sunday was 13 miles. My running goal for the year is to do 12 halves, broke the 2hr mark on most recent one (8:46 pace), looking to get in 8:45 pace by summer, 8:30 pace by fall, and 8:00 pace by Jan '15. I have no running experience or training so these goals may be a little high or low.
So with the goal of increasing my pace, my question is should I incorporate tempo runs and intervals at same time or start with one for a few weeks to get adjusted and then incorporate the other. I'd like to keep the long run (increasing 1mi/wk) on the weekends until I get to 20 and then sign up for a full marathon sometime in the second half of year.
Part of me feels like a real big ##### for running so slow. I don't know if I'm just being lazy with myself or if that is just my natural pace. Like I said, never ran in high school or anything organized. I could stand to lose a little weight (6'0/195) and stop smoking/drinking so much, these would probably help my speed as well.
Thanks for any advice.
(Will probably sign up for the NM/TX half this Saturday, haven't done any prep other than getting in 30+ miles weekly and don't really have a goal for it, but I'd kinda like to participate in a running event this weekend. ETA: looks like my 8:46 pace would have garnered 2nd place in my age group last year, may have to go get a medal
1. How long have you been running? Years or months?
2. You seem to have a solid base, so it's probably time to incorporate speed work. That could either be intervals or tempo, opinions will differ but with your goals being 13.1 at a faster pace, I'd start adding some tempo work, then add intervals after a few weeks of tempo. If you do add intervals, start with 30 second intervals. No need to do yasso 800s or anything like that, at least not yet.
3. You don't specify how you're doing it, but with your long runs, I'd suggest adding 1 mile each week for 3 weeks, then drop a few miles, add back in the next week. Something like (on consecutive weekends) 13, 14, 15, 10, 15, 16, 17, 12, 17, 18, 19, 14... the idea is to get some rest weeks.
Stop smoking!
Ned
Footballguy
A few thoughts.Since you guys are giving some good advice to Ghost on training let me throw my hat in the ring.
I'm averaging 31 miles a week, 10:09 pace. Basically I go "jog" 5-6 miles 3-4 times a week and do a long run on weekend increasing 1 mile/wk. This past Sunday was 13 miles. My running goal for the year is to do 12 halves, broke the 2hr mark on most recent one (8:46 pace), looking to get in 8:45 pace by summer, 8:30 pace by fall, and 8:00 pace by Jan '15. I have no running experience or training so these goals may be a little high or low.
So with the goal of increasing my pace, my question is should I incorporate tempo runs and intervals at same time or start with one for a few weeks to get adjusted and then incorporate the other. I'd like to keep the long run (increasing 1mi/wk) on the weekends until I get to 20 and then sign up for a full marathon sometime in the second half of year.
Part of me feels like a real big ##### for running so slow. I don't know if I'm just being lazy with myself or if that is just my natural pace. Like I said, never ran in high school or anything organized. I could stand to lose a little weight (6'0/195) and stop smoking/drinking so much, these would probably help my speed as well.
Thanks for any advice.
(Will probably sign up for the NM/TX half this Saturday, haven't done any prep other than getting in 30+ miles weekly and don't really have a goal for it, but I'd kinda like to participate in a running event this weekend. ETA: looks like my 8:46 pace would have garnered 2nd place in my age group last year, may have to go get a medal
1. How long have you been running? Years or months?
2. You seem to have a solid base, so it's probably time to incorporate speed work. That could either be intervals or tempo, opinions will differ but with your goals being 13.1 at a faster pace, I'd start adding some tempo work, then add intervals after a few weeks of tempo. If you do add intervals, start with 30 second intervals. No need to do yasso 800s or anything like that, at least not yet.
3. You don't specify how you're doing it, but with your long runs, I'd suggest adding 1 mile each week for 3 weeks, then drop a few miles, add back in the next week. Something like (on consecutive weekends) 13, 14, 15, 10, 15, 16, 17, 12, 17, 18, 19, 14... the idea is to get some rest weeks.
Stop smoking!
Especially #3 - I'm a big fan of 3 up and then a step back week. Let your body recover a bit from the increased workload.
wilked
Footballguy
Chauncey:
I would only look one goal ahead... you broke 2 hr half marathon which is fantastic. Sounds like you have another goal of 8:30 half. Keep after that, and maybe think about running a full marathon to mix things up.
The way I like to think about health (and the weight that tends to go hand in hand)... Try filling a backpack with 10 pounds worth of something, then go run a 10k loop. Once back to where you started throw the backpack off and run another 10k, see how it feels. That was good inspiration for me to drop some pounds
I would only look one goal ahead... you broke 2 hr half marathon which is fantastic. Sounds like you have another goal of 8:30 half. Keep after that, and maybe think about running a full marathon to mix things up.
The way I like to think about health (and the weight that tends to go hand in hand)... Try filling a backpack with 10 pounds worth of something, then go run a 10k loop. Once back to where you started throw the backpack off and run another 10k, see how it feels. That was good inspiration for me to drop some pounds
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Going from 8:46 to sub-8:00 in the HM in 20 (?) months is do-able, but it may be asking a lot depending on your background. (Edit: I missed the first time that you're trying to lose weight. Dropping the extra pounds and obviously quitting smoking will do wonders for your speed, so I'm more optimistic about your chances of improving your HM pace assuming the weight comes off and the smoking stops). I agree with wilked that it's probably better to take one goal at a time.Since you guys are giving some good advice to Ghost on training let me throw my hat in the ring.
I'm averaging 31 miles a week, 10:09 pace. Basically I go "jog" 5-6 miles 3-4 times a week and do a long run on weekend increasing 1 mile/wk. This past Sunday was 13 miles. My running goal for the year is to do 12 halves, broke the 2hr mark on most recent one (8:46 pace), looking to get in 8:45 pace by summer, 8:30 pace by fall, and 8:00 pace by Jan '15. I have no running experience or training so these goals may be a little high or low.
So with the goal of increasing my pace, my question is should I incorporate tempo runs and intervals at same time or start with one for a few weeks to get adjusted and then incorporate the other. I'd like to keep the long run (increasing 1mi/wk) on the weekends until I get to 20 and then sign up for a full marathon sometime in the second half of year.
Part of me feels like a real big ##### for running so slow. I don't know if I'm just being lazy with myself or if that is just my natural pace. Like I said, never ran in high school or anything organized. I could stand to lose a little weight (6'0/195) and stop smoking/drinking so much, these would probably help my speed as well.
Thanks for any advice.
(Will probably sign up for the NM/TX half this Saturday, haven't done any prep other than getting in 30+ miles weekly and don't really have a goal for it, but I'd kinda like to participate in a running event this weekend. ETA: looks like my 8:46 pace would have garnered 2nd place in my age group last year, may have to go get a medal
As far as where to take your training, I have three suggestions:
1) Run more miles. Nothing will increase your performance in half as much as just adding more easy miles will. Of course, you're already at ~30 mpw on 4-5 "on" days, so you have a good base, but you could still add some regular mileage here. Maybe something like 35-40 mpw on 5 solid days each week.
2) Add a mid-week medium-long run. MLRs are fantastic for building endurance. They are a regular feature of pretty much every serious marathon regimen, but they absolutely apply to the half-marathon as well. If your weekend long run is 12 miles, try working an regular 8-miler in on Wednesdays (or whenever). If your long run is 15, make your MLR 10 instead. These pay off way more than you would think.
3) Tempo runs. Like others have said, you have enough base to start incorporating speedwork. If you had to choose between tempo runs and intervals, I'd go with tempo runs for HM training and intervals for the 5K, but they're both good and you don't have to do one or the other. You could do an LT workout one week and 400s the next, for example.
You and I aren't that far off either in terms of weekly mileage or pace (HM PR = 1:43:02), so I'll share what I normally do. When I'm not training for anything -- off-season maintenance, my schedule is like this:
Day 1 -- 10
Day 2-- 5
Day 3 -- 5
Day 4 -- 10
Day 5 -- 5
with two SRDs stuck in there wherever convenient. Over the past couple of months, I've been preparing for my local half. My training has been as follows:
Day 1 -- 15
Day 2 -- 5 recovery
Day 3 -- 10-12 MLR
Day 4 -- 5 recovery
Day 5 -- Tempo run (started at 7 miles with 4 at LT pace, now built up to 10 miles with 6 at LT pace)
again with two SRDs. Many runners would substitute track sessions for some or all of the LT runs and that would be fine too. Some would add a sixth day and I think I'm going to try that the next time around myself. Regardless, I think the basic philosophy of doing three key workouts each week -- long run, MLR, speed, with easy recovery runs filling out the other days -- is sound.
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
